General Discussion
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One of the sites where i spent a lot of time before i retired is a major player in the production of the active microbicide that goes into sanitizing cleaner sprays & wipes.
They're pedal to the metal, 60,000kg at a time. Of course the consumer product are diluted to much lower levels. About 200 fold.
So, one would think that tens of millions of wipes could be made every few days. And, you'd be right.
Found out last night that for the last 6 weeks or so, I&I customers have been prioritized to be nearly exclusive.
I&I is Institutional & Industrial.
So, the formulators making product for hospitals, clinics, labs, food processing & packaging plants, and the like have been nearly exclusive. Which, of course makes sense.
The balance of the supply to all markets is now beginning. Still might not be 50:50 for a while, but the active ingredients for the brands we buy at the store might start showing up relatively soon.
The finished product inventory was just not designed for a 500% increase in demand. So the inventory went to zero, and the supply got mostly redirected toward more immediate needs.
We finally might get this product line back toward normal. Or at least in the neighborhood.
SWBTATTReg
(21,856 posts)ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)The demand spiked dramatically, but the institutional needs were so great it put consumer products on the back burner.
It uses a fairly dangerous raw material, and requires special metallurgy so that site, as big as it is, can't just use other reactors.
The formulators are in the same boat. The high concentration product still requires the special metals so the can't convert other blenders to this function.
At usage level, it's not a problem, but the special metal lines and mass meters only run to those blenders. So, still stuck.
Then, the product itself has FDA & EPA registrations so it can't be legally farmed out to toll producers.
The virus attack just was more than any part of the supply chain could handle.
From active production to the store shelves, the system got crushed.
Doreen
(11,686 posts)Having been a custodian for a couple of school districts I learned where the industrial chemical stores are and have been using those for years. Their sanitizing chemicals are much stronger than grocery shelf sanitizers.
My friend has been going nuts trying to find Lysol spray. There just isn't any. I should really mix her a bottle of my industrial sanatizer and give it to her.
ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)Concentration of the active quaternized nitrogen chlorides that kill microbes is roughly double in industrial usage products.
The surfactant content (active cleaning agents) are about 50% higher.
You may have noticed that those cleaners foam a little less. That because the surfactants are mostly nonionic to prevent ionic degradation of the active antimicrobial compound. Those foam less.
Here in the Midwest, wipes are still at nearly zero inventory.
And, many are made in Ohio & Missouri. But, with no active microbicide, those factories are stuck!
My info is that we should be returning to normal in 6 weeks or so. But, limited supply should be seen sooner.
Doreen
(11,686 posts)The one thing that I have been having problems with are my in between cleaners which is the Kirkland wipes. I never in my life thought I would get excited about getting a box of sanatizer wipes.
ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)Those products have less & cheaper dyes and fragrances to offset the price of the higher active ingredients.
And the packaging is less glamorous so it's cheaper.
Also, the unit cost of running a line of bigger bottles is lower.
So the cost to the user is made quite reasonable for the amount in the bottle.
Just some industry inside info.
ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)None of the stores anywhere near us have had wipes for more than a month!
If I see them again, I'm going to be tempted to throw a party.
Well, not that happy!
Doreen
(11,686 posts)We will not talk about that though.
Baltimike
(4,125 posts)mopinko
(69,805 posts)spent a lot of time finding decent replacements for the 409, windex, etc that hubs grew up w. used to be a book called 'cheaper and better'. they werent all winners, but i havent bought anything like that in decades.
you need a slightly more heavy duty than usual sprayer for anything w bleach, but you can make a fine cleaner w household bleach and a few drops of dishsoap. hand or machine works fine, but if you cant just hose it off, i recommend the machine stuff. just a little stickier to mix.
h2o2 works fine too.
ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)To compare the efficacy to consumer brands.
I'll tell you right off the top, that a few drops of dish liquid doesn't seem like it would get you to the critical micelle concentration.
Dish liquids are only 3-7% active cleaning agents so a few drops are probably giving you just enough foaming to make you happy, but are really not performing the surface chemistry you really want to effectively clean.
Household bleach is a perfectly fine sanitizer if the concentration in the formula is near 1,000ppm. At least 600, is probably decent. CDC says a thousand though.
Remember your bottle of bleach is only 6% calcium hypochlorite. So, don't over dilute (1-2% of total formula depending on brand). Otherwise you won't get the microbe kill you're hoping for.
More than likely, it's the dyes or perfumes that bother you. Lots of people have some issues with those. It's the target market for those "clear & free" products we all see.
I should have mentioned that Dawn dish detergent is far higher in active ingredients than most other brands.
mopinko
(69,805 posts)i have long since learned to eyeball this stuff, and for bleach, about a third to a half is what i would be using. sorta go by smell. not a thing i use often.
it is def the perfumes, and 'free' goes in and out of fashioned, but always has a premium.
ftr- a tablespoon of olive oil shampoo, which i use because it doesnt smell, in a quart spray bottle makes an excellent wood cleaner.
machine dish soap works because it cuts protein. good for blood.
a few drops of dawn and a cup of so of white vinegar/ qt= window cleaner. newspaper scrubs w no streaks.
also- the secret to lazy cleaning- a soap spray + time + rinse= the best way to clean grime. if you can hose it down first, do that.
should rinse clean. if not, spray again and ignore some more.
ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)...is in the physical chemistry at the macromolecular level.
I never said I was any good at cleaning stuff! LOL!!!!
mopinko
(69,805 posts)eleny
(46,166 posts)We spray all our incoming packages with a spraying of the sudsy water now. We switched from the antiviral wipes since our canisters of wipes are starting to get low. Fat cutting suds renders the virus incapable of functioning. But we really like using the wipes. Thanks for the news.
ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)I don't want folks to have a false sense of security.
There is a thing called critical micelle concentration that must be hit, at the least, for a cleaning solution to do what it's supposed to.
eleny
(46,166 posts)And we use it liberally. I'd say it's more than what we use on our hands for an efficient hand washing. Then we put the packages in isolation for several days - which would probably be enough precaution in itself.
How much does it take to deal with the fat of the coronavirus-19's coating through the emulsification process? All that I've read tells us that soap works efficiently for removing and rendering the virus "dead" from our hands. Do you believe that hand washing isn't good enough? What do you use on your hands?
I would caution people to use plenty of the soap & water solution. Spraying also helps to get it into nooks, crannies and any open areas of a cardboard container.
ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)Remember that these things are formulated very carefully & professionally to do everything detergents are meant to do, including delamination of the fat layer of virus.
That said, the economy brands on diluted to make them cheaper.
Dawn is very high in active ingredients, and there SDS says 10-30%, which is really them not wanting to give exact numbers.
I guarantee it's not 30%. Probably more like 12%.
The non-concentrate economy brands are probably around 5%. They are less effective on heavy oil based soils.
The CMC is probably around 600ppm or 0.06%. So a half ounce of Dawn in a quart is probably fine.
The more surfactant though, the better the mass transfer when delaminating the virus lipid.
I'll still say a half ounce per quart. That's more than a couple drops, though.
You said heavy, so I'm presuming you're OK.
eleny
(46,166 posts)All in one household spray bottle. Sounds like I can ease up a little.
Thanks so much for the convo. We're extremely vulnerable here at our house so we tend to err on the side of caution with mail and groceries. I won't bore you with how we handle groceries but even the bags are soaked with suds before they get a shower in the garage work sink.
All the best to you! We need folks like you to weigh in and help keep us on a safe path.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I haven't been able to find disinfecting products anywhere online. I still have a few half-full bottles of Clorox bleach spray left but I like to carry the wipes w/ me when I leave the apartment to go down to the lobby or the mailroom. Hopefully they will be available to ship soon.
Thanks for the heads up!
ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)...is they can be used as a barrier. Keeps a disinfectant between your hand & door knobs or gas pumps.
Well, for gas pumps I wear gloves, but still, in a pinch!
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)The people who clean the building are really good about going around and disinfecting all the common touch points. I see them all the time, but you can never be too careful.
JCMach1
(27,544 posts)On Amazon in March. It makes about 32 gallons,so we should actually be good until about December despite sanitizing everything daily.
Can be used for just about anything and anywhere...
ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)...I was talking about in the OP.
Not sure what their % is in the concentrate, but if you dilute it so that it's still at a few thousand ppm, it's probably effective. Clorox wipes have 0.29% in the fluid in the wipes.
Anything under 1500 ppm is suspect, especially for bacteria. Right now, I'd assume the limit is hard for any microbe, but that's just a guess.
Sugarcoated
(7,707 posts)I use them mostly to wipe down my groceries.
My husband fixes machinery at a plastics factory that makes tubing for IVs. He has very little contact with his coworkers which number maybe a half dozen, wears a mask, big warehouse break room, keeps his distance, works by himself mostly. He takes off his work clothes there and heads right to the shower. Head and Shoulders and regular bar soap. Am I reading right that these products aren't going to be effective if he should have virus particles in his hair or neck or any that may fall off of his clothing when changing? Having said all that he's in a very low risk kind of situation but he's cautious.
mopinko
(69,805 posts)ProfessorGAC
(64,413 posts)Yes. But, as Mo says below, a detergent solution works OK. It's a matter of preference, I suppose.
The difference is time. Contact time with surfactants is effective but takes a bit more time.
In one case, we're relying on surface chemistry to clean, then the reaction with the viral lipid layer can begin.
In the other case, (wipes) the reaction is immediately initiated, and it's a faster reaction.
I'm not talking seconds vs. hours. More like 2 seconds compared to 20 seconds. The 20 seconds is where the "sing happy birthday" when washing your hands comes from!
So, yes they work, but there are other options.
Last point: the active ingredient I'm talking about is specifically listed by the Canadian government as an effective killer of CV. I couldn't find anything that specific (listed OK products) for the US. Might be out there, but I didn't see it.