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Quixote1818

(28,919 posts)
Thu Apr 23, 2020, 10:25 PM Apr 2020

There were 31,000 new known cases today. The curve has been flat but not going down for 3 weeks

So with full throttle shelter in place for over a month, all we have been able to do is flatten things out with no sign the curve is going to start going down. We hit over 30,000 cases a day on April 2nd and here it is April 23rd and again we are still over 30,000 cases a day. To me that shows me this virus is extremely difficult to get control of and of course Trump hasn't helped with so little testing and the country being so late putting in social distancing.

Math and statistics people. What is your take on this? Are we just going to continue seeing 30,000 cases a day until we get a vaccine?? This is nuts!

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

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There were 31,000 new known cases today. The curve has been flat but not going down for 3 weeks (Original Post) Quixote1818 Apr 2020 OP
K&R SheltieLover Apr 2020 #1
Possibly just noise. I look for a 3+ day trend. Ms. Toad Apr 2020 #2
I think we will hit 1 million on the 26th. What an utter disaster. NRaleighLiberal Apr 2020 #7
I've got the 28th as the peak - Ms. Toad Apr 2020 #10
Cases are up two days in a row, and this thing is about to explode Renew Deal Apr 2020 #3
Until they get the testing accurate, available, distributed & widely used Jarqui Apr 2020 #4
Too many stupids in the U.S.A. I'm expecting to stay put into 2022 now? Brainfodder Apr 2020 #5
I Agree sfstaxprep Apr 2020 #8
Known positives have flattened out because testing has flattened out. eppur_se_muova Apr 2020 #6
Math nerd here stopwastingmymoney Apr 2020 #9
You're reading the data like it was one thing being monitored. Igel Apr 2020 #11
Other countries that tested aggressively early on have brought it under control. Blue_true Apr 2020 #12
It's math... Hugin Apr 2020 #13

Ms. Toad

(34,000 posts)
2. Possibly just noise. I look for a 3+ day trend.
Thu Apr 23, 2020, 10:33 PM
Apr 2020

Last edited Fri Apr 24, 2020, 01:09 AM - Edit history (1)

For perspective, here are the daily multipliers for the last few days:

1.040671518
1.035296459
1.036732137
1.032777931
1.036608513
1.037099528

Notice how close they are - today is only .4% higher than yesterday (ie. less than one%)

That said, with states starting to ease restrictions, I woudl expect an increase in cases in 1-2 weeks.

ETA: About once a week I go back and adjust prior day's data. The last time I did this, they had only adjusted data about a week back. This time there were changes in the daily cases all the way back to March 11 - with many of the days changing by as much as 2-3000 each day. The trend stayed pretty much the same (the formula I'm using didn't change at all). The daily multipliers changed slightly. Here they are after the data adjustment:

1.040592713
1.035196888
1.036545364
1.03270373
1.036647855
1.037329938

(Note that all of the changes are in the digits representing tenths of percent - or smaller).

Ms. Toad

(34,000 posts)
10. I've got the 28th as the peak -
Thu Apr 23, 2020, 11:28 PM
Apr 2020

not quite a million.

But I've no doubt that we'll get there with states starting to open up.

Renew Deal

(81,847 posts)
3. Cases are up two days in a row, and this thing is about to explode
Thu Apr 23, 2020, 10:34 PM
Apr 2020

A lot of people don't get it. This thing is just getting started with the south and Midwest. 31,000 cases today means another 1000+ people dead in three weeks.

Jarqui

(10,122 posts)
4. Until they get the testing accurate, available, distributed & widely used
Thu Apr 23, 2020, 10:37 PM
Apr 2020

it's probably hard to be certain.

Brainfodder

(6,423 posts)
5. Too many stupids in the U.S.A. I'm expecting to stay put into 2022 now?
Thu Apr 23, 2020, 10:39 PM
Apr 2020


Well that and the ever changing story on this virus?

I am figuring under counting deaths by a lot is going on, and he did ask for keeping #'s down.

eppur_se_muova

(36,247 posts)
6. Known positives have flattened out because testing has flattened out.
Thu Apr 23, 2020, 11:03 PM
Apr 2020

Testing is still the bottleneck. Without more testing, we could be fooled into thinking the virus is fading out when it's not.

stopwastingmymoney

(2,041 posts)
9. Math nerd here
Thu Apr 23, 2020, 11:25 PM
Apr 2020

I think looking at the US as a whole is much too broad. There are real differences between regions/states both in what’s been done and in how early they were first hit.

The link you shared has a very interesting chart by state. Run your eye down those three per million (of population) columns. Cases, deaths and then testing. For example I was surprised how bad the numbers are for Connecticut and Rhode Island.

Then to address your question, we need to see how more specific areas are moving, new cases going up or down.

I know there’s data available by state but with testing so low any kind of forecasting is probably educated guesswork at best.

Sorry it’s not a very good answer.

I’m sure smarter people are trying to make predictions

Igel

(35,282 posts)
11. You're reading the data like it was one thing being monitored.
Thu Apr 23, 2020, 11:45 PM
Apr 2020

It's not.

First, chuck the "case" number. It's meaningless except in a really constrained sense--and even then it's not the positive case number that matters, but the ratio. Do 10x the tests, you'll really increase the cases. It's not that the case # actually increases--it's your monitoring of it. It's like counting the words a talk-show host says. Record 30 seconds and count, you get one number. Record 2 minutes and count, you get a different number. It's not that he talked less or more, it's that you counted less or more. Divorce measuring from the measured.

Better--look at COVID hospitalizations and deaths. Esp. with the new revised way of counting dead people. Yes, some won't show up--but they get worked in. If you have access to cumulative hospitalizations, the number's 1 in 4 or 5 hospitalized patients die, and it's been pretty consistent for the two weeks across numerous states. Usually 1-in-5 means "low death toll" and I suspect the doctors have lots of capacity and don't need to be prudent with assigning hospital beds. Or maybe they need the income. Dunno.

To the curve ...

Some places are cresting or peaking. Others are in decline. Some are increasing. That means you're not getting a good / but the results of a lot of little ups and downs and flats all added together. Remember that--you add all the little trajectories to get the big mother of a trajectory.

Think of it terms of the world. Italy's decreasing, the US is increasing, some countries are in that funny random-hits stage before the curve really takes hold, some are post-wave 1. The world's crest is ... Depends on all the projections of the individual countries. It makes no sense to speak of Vietnam and India and the US and Chile all in the same breath.

Sadly, the details matter. Or maybe I've just been looking at too much math with sums and indices while drinking. But I think the details matter.

IMHE had its predictions, and it showed a crest based on the timing of all the little projections. There *is* no overall projection that isn't a composite of lots of little ones. If you spread out the timing of the crests, you start getting a plateau or a gently sloping line. Time them all to occur at once, you get a really sharp peak. (Want fun, learn Fourier analysis. You can use a whole bunch of sine curves to give a flat line. It's a pain. But doable. In this case, it's just for a while.)

In other words, the US isn't plateauing--that's an emergent feature when you add all the little bits together. Like a Lego kit. Don't think of the US as a single entity. For this purpose, it's not. It's also not red/blue. Or just rural/urban. It's complicated. Simplisticate it all you want, but when you're done what you have is simplistic: Simpler than possible.

This isn't to say I'm not bothered by the extension of the curve, but I'm not as much as I would be for two reasons. First, because I know the model was subverted, right at the time that some big states were to have peaked. Gee--instead of declining, we count differently so that the numbers go up again. The IMHE model is based on mapping real data to a modified curved derived from Wuhan/Hubei. The modifications are things like the predicted effect from social distancing and such--and there's feedback, as social distancing produces a wildly different result, they go back and alter their assumptions. Theoreticians hate it--it's not mathematically pure, it's corrupted by data-based feedback. (Oh. The horrors. Quick. Hide. And is that bottle empty?)

When they altered the basis for counting corpses they changed things in a way that I'm sure is a b---h to work in. Meaning that they're going to be tinkering some more. They underestimated the death count on the 4/15 run, and it'll take a while to work out as *more* states update their death totals. If they do. (Assume they will, assume they won't--screwed either way.)

The second reason is that the summed peak for the US was much lower than predicted. Why? Because the curves were splayed out over a longer period. Lower the peak, drag out the lowered peak. It's nice to think that the lower peak meant fewer deaths overall, and IMHE came in over the real value more often than not. But it didn't mean that the lower curve meant a lower overall death toll. It was a possibility. But people jumped the gun in the interpretation (I was hoping, but think I held my keyboard.)

There's also noise--there's always noise. Deaths lump up for whatever reason--they're mixed in with a bit of randomness, and random is lumpy. If you flip a coin and it comes up HTHTHTHTHTHT... you know you're in an impossible universe. Heads/tails comes up lumpy: HTHHTHTHTHHTTTHHTHTHHT. So don't expect the death count to *ever* map really well to any predicted curve unless it's something well studied and the numbers are large. (No, 800 isn't large. At least not large enough for this.) And the reported deaths are when they're reported: Sundays are slow death days in some states not because death's observing a Sunday work-slowdown but because they don't get reported until Monday. So you have to have at least a 3 or 4 day moving average to get rid of the random and systemic error. You can do the math or you can squint and hold an index card against your screen.

Here's the rub and where all the studies on how progressives/liberals are so much better at handling uncertainty than conservatives get tested. IMHE and other models have uncertainty indicated. For IMHE it's a laughable uncertainty, to be honest. There were 45 deaths today, and tomorrow they predict 39 deaths, +500/-45. Ooh. Hard to be wrong with that. So just accept uncertainty--yeah, lives and livelihoods depend on it. But if you can't accept uncertainty when you're under the gun, it's like a rich person's faith in god to provide his/her daily bread. Not exactly a big reach. What I'm saying is a lot of the projections are going to be wrong because random shit happens. Assume that rate of infection is a constant, then suddenly the virus infects a large nursing home. Oops: Predicted 50 dead, you get 70. Sounds callous, but math modeling has never oozed emotion. You look at a lot of state's curves and you see nothing but random events completely swamping any actual curve.

Today NY is down. MA is up. Good news, bad news. I'd like worldometers to have not just a "yesterday" but -1, -2, -3 days so you could have multiple columns visible at once, see something about peaks and crests over time. Don't feel like spreadsheeting the data. Not today. Not this week.

What would worry me isn't the cumulative, totaled-up USA curve, but seeing a couple of states with large death tolls develop two peaks. NY goes from yesterday's ~500 to 450 to 400 then 450, 500, 575, 650, 700. *That* would worry me, esp. if nothing else changed--no significant social distancing or lockdown changes, for instance. Similarly, I'd worry if some states that look like they're following the IMHE curve to within 10% or so suddenly deviate up--10, 12, 15 (as predicted), 20, 35, 60, 100, 160 (instead of the predicted 20, 17, 15, 13 ...). If a state like NE develops two peaks, that could just easily be random--the peak is low, and a few oddly placed random fluctuations could produce that.

And, one more time, don't stress out over the positive test reports. I heard a newscast where the reporter said this, and pointed out that the US's postive/total test ratio is about 20%, and that needs to come way down. That ignores that New York's ratio was close to 40 and other places are way under 10. But that tells you something about how much of the population is infected in an area. If you have limited tests, you test those with symptoms. If 40% come back positive, that means 40% of those with symptoms at hospitals/clinics have COVID. If 10%, only 10% are infected with this coronavirus. You want that number *low*. Texas is about 10%--if those with symptoms are only 10% suffering from COVID, how prevalent could it be in the wider population? You'd *expect* a low death toll--and you get one. But the math is fuzzy--when they ramped up testing, that ratio didn't change, so while it's under 10% for Texas it might be 9% or it might be 2%. Can't tell.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
12. Other countries that tested aggressively early on have brought it under control.
Fri Apr 24, 2020, 12:15 AM
Apr 2020

We are being led by a fucking idiot who is giving out quack "solutions" on national tv. Countries that have true leaders are corralling this virus.

Hugin

(33,059 posts)
13. It's math...
Fri Apr 24, 2020, 12:33 AM
Apr 2020

If you recall the two overlaid charts which were posted quite frequently several weeks ago.

One was a tall peak and the other (with flattening by social distancing and other measures) was shorter and the timeline extended far to the right.

The area under both of those curves was the same. The point of the flattening was not then nor was ever intended to reduce the total number of cases as it's primary goal. The flattening was meant to keep the number of simultaneous cases from overwhelming the available health care resources. The benefit to individual patients was that they would have those resources available when they might be sick at a later date. Also, the potential that if they did become infected at a later date more would be understood about the virus and treatment would be improved.

But, those curves were built on the facts known at the time.

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