Can someone help me understand my wing nut friends?

[Dannyteague]

I have these really good friends. They are truly nice people. He is a retired electrician, she has been mostly a stay home mom with a few jobs in between. They are in their early 60 s. These two are devoted church goers, will do anything for anyone who asks them.

The problem is that on politics they are off the chart wing nuts! "Obama is a socialist, Obama is a Marxist, Obama hates America, we could balance the budget every year if we just ended welfare, same sex marriage threatens our way of life, FOX News is Fair and Balanced, Rush is right, bla bla bla.

We avoid politics when around each other. They hated Romney until he got nominated. Still, I like these people, play golf with him, drink beer, our wives hang out.

I see their political hate that they post online and can't believe it is the same couple.

Do you all think I should remain friends with these people?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. If you think that's weird wait until you meet the contingent of pro-Obama folks

that *wish* Obama was a socialist and Marxist.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

59. ...

[JoePhilly]

2. Avoid them until after the election. They are too far gone to help.

Or ...

When they call him a socialist, ask them how a socialist got the DOW to go up 6000 points.

Ask them why a guy who hates America would kill Osama Bin Laden.

Why this America hater would save the US Auto industry.

Remind them that gay marriage doesn't mean they have to get "gay married" themselves.

Remind them that Romney plans to end Medicare and Social Security.

[Dannyteague]

6. Sadly, you are correct!

I just don't understand it.

[JoePhilly]

9. Obama is a symbol of a changing America.

These folks sound like the right wing folks at the recent GOP convention.

They remember a magical America that never existed.

Women and minorities knew their place. There were no icky gay people. And if a young girl got "in a family way, she went to stay with some relatives for a few months, and when she returned without a baby, no one questioned it.

Now we've got an angry black guy in the white house, women want equal pay, there are gays and Mexicans climbing over every fence, and the feminists are forcing young girls to have sex, get pregnant, and then have late term abortions as a hobby. All clear signs that we are living in the end-times.

If you want to have some fun ... ask them if they think Mormonism is a true version of Christianity, or a cult inspired by the anti-Christ. You don't have to take a position on that, just indicate that you've heard both views.

[pampango]

19. Well said. Teabaggers shorten that down to "We want our country back."

[JoePhilly]

21. agree. nt

[Vietnameravet]

58. good

Very good reply...I have been puzzling over this question for sometime..what you have posted is what I have concluded..

[Indpndnt]

71. That was perfect!

[Scuba]

7. +1

[fleur-de-lisa]

3. Friends in person, yes. But dump them online.

I did this with many friends and family members. I was tired of all the online trash, a lot of it racist. Life is too short . . .

[Jackpine Radical]

4. I have a wingnut or 2 that I maintain a relationship with.

I find it useful to monitor their umbrage consumption (they are always taking umbrage, you notice) as daily events unfold.

Anyway, I heark back to a time when people of wildly differing political views got along with each other just fine.

In your case, though, I might prime a laptop with things like budget data (how much is being spent on welfare annually, true tax rates, etc.) to pull out & fact-check them when they venture inaccurate opinions.

[no_hypocrisy]

5. Your option to remain friends. Depends upon if your position bothers *them*.

My father is just like your friends. Told me Obama was making death panels to kill him. Stuff like that. Well, I squirm when I visit him, but I still visit him. It depends on your tolerance and his/her/their intolerance.

Wish I had more specific advice.

[Dannyteague]

11. These are otherwise intelligent people.

It must have something to do with how they were raised.

[no_hypocrisy]

14. Same with my dad.

But raised with fear of "the other".

[MrScorpio]

8. To put it simply, Cognitive Dissonance

Last edited Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:44 PM - Edit history (3)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

These are people who have already held a certain set of beliefs. You probably never ran into any problem with them prior to the election of the President.

However, they're having to deal with a set of preexisting belief in negative stereotypes about Democrats, Liberals and minorities and the fact that none of these descriptions can be applied to the President in real life.

In turn, they seek out media voices that reenforce the stereotypes through the use of lies and mischaracterizations, but since they ONLY depend on those sources of information, there's an automatic rejection of information to the contrary. To process contrary information would mean that they would have to reassess those preexisting stereotypes and admit that that their moral beliefs and understanding of the world around them is completely wrong.

The problem that you have here is that you and your friends both have a fundamental difference of opinion about how the world actually works.

Whether or not you can cope with this difference is up to you. If you can avoid conflict over these issues and still maintain a cordial relationship, I can't answer that. Only you can.

[savalez]

48. That makes sense to me.

I too am having trouble understanding one friend. I don't want to unfriend him (this is real life by the way, not FB) but he troubles me in the area of politics. Come to think of it he does have negative stereotypes about people too, but not to the point where he won't be friends with them. He just says stupid stuff once in awhile. Thanks for the explanation.

[mstinamotorcity2]

50. Hey You

You always give it straight up. Love you. Started new account same MsTinamotorcity.

[Vietnameravet]

60. Great post

Excellent post.. this problem has puzzled me as well In fact its so good that I am going to print it out..
Thanks!

[RDANGELO]

10. Tribalism

They have become conditioned to see our society in terms of groups of people opposing one another. Their group is the good people. To get them to change, you need to change the way they look at society, not debating policy. Considering their age, changing them is unlikely.

[Dannyteague]

13. They are like the tea baggers in Congress.

Even worse they don't believe in compromise.

[bhikkhu]

41. Exactly what I have found

addressing little issues as they go along just goes in one ear and out the other, as they have a fundamentally different worldview that supports their perspective and undermines ours.

They believe that people are basically worthless, lazy, immoral, corrupt, bad characters, who wouldn't work a day if they had someone to pay their way, and who inevitably get or take more than they deserve in life.

Then they see themselves as belonging to a group of the elect who have overcome these fundamental deficiencies in character, whether by effort or through good breeding (really!). The bulk of the "tribe", who are generally not very well educated or fortunately employed, imagine that the only reason they don't have all that they deserve themselves is all those others who refuse to pay their way and selfishly hoover-up the world's wealth and resources. They see the RW agenda themselves as putting things back in balance.

The way to address that is incremental - any thing that can emphasize the general goodness of people or the value of kindness as a fundamental good; in practice, if they listen to hate-radio and fox news all day, they have so much reinforcement for their petty perspective that there are few cracks where daylight might enter.

[socialindependocrat]

12. Of course stay friends!

You have a great time with these people and as long as you
both know that politics will get you into a tiff there is no problem.

I love my cousin and she spews out the same talking points.
When I try to make a point she wrestles control of the argument
and refuses to let me ask questions about he opinions. Basically,
she gets really scared. I see these people as being focused on
trying to win the argument and are not interested in getting at the
truth.

I worked in research for 35 years and our focus was on trying to
find the truth not trying to proove that we were smart. If you
try to find the truth in any discussion you never really lose because
you either find out that your ideas about a subject were correct or you
discover new information that makes you more knowledgable than
you were before.

I get a kick out of people who try to push the point and say, "So you were wrong!"
I just figure that they have more of a need to proove others wrong than they
do to join in a conversation to share ideas and help each other grow.

Have fun with your friends..

[Dannyteague]

18. They are amazed anyone could be "liberal."

It is so foreign to them. That is why I think there may be something in our brains that pre disposes us.

[socialindependocrat]

26. They may be afraid of change - fear that it is not for the better..

I am 60 yrs old. When I was in high school we were protesting the Vietnam war
(among other things). My mother said, "I know you kids are tring to make changes
but do you have to try to change everything at the same time?" She was afraid of
the changes we were asking for.

As a liberal I look at change as "continuous improvement". We constantly make changes
to make life better (I guess you could say that's being an optomist).

One of the things that annoys me is to hear people suggesting radicle change. I feel that
we need to look at where we are now and where we want to be and make a plan to
change over a period of time to reach our goals. I get miffed when I hear the Repubs
say they are going to recind Obamacare (now Mitt is saying that there are certain things in Obamacare that are worthwhile.) If they would make a plan where both parties agreed
on the final goal they could make plans to make stepwise changes to get from here to there.
But, the Repukes have decided to block anything that makes the Pres look good (even is they
agree with the change) just to get him out of office. Personally I think we should see this
as a hate crime - it's prejudice and at the least it is doing nothing, if not hurting, the American
people.

Last point: I had friends at work who complained about the "socialistic" aspects of Obamacare
until I pointed out that we require hospitals to treat people without health insurance and
then the hospitals claim the loss on their taxes and the government reimburses them by
giving them a tax credit for the loss - So, the American people are paying for the treatment
of the uninsured anyway - which is socialistic.

If we want to cut down on the abuse of the programs we have for the poor we need to make
stepwise changes to get us from here to there but when they talk about cutting medicare and
social security and all programs for the poor it seeems like a drastict change that will leave people dying in the streets and is very uncaring of the poor, the sick and the elderly.

Four more years!

[RKP5637]

30. There is, here is a study on that ...

"Your Brain on Politics: The Cognitive Neuroscience of Liberals and Conservatives"

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/09/07/your-brain-on-politics-the-cognitive-neuroscience-of-liberals-and-conservatives/

[bhikkhu]

42. "Liberal" means you believe that people are generally good

and equal - men, women, any color, etc - and that the world is best where we treat each other with respect and kindness.

[Dannyteague]

61. So many churches make people into right wingers.

All over abortion and marriage equality.

[tosh]

15. I hear you.

I have a couple of those, too.

They won't discuss politics with me because "you know so much more than I do" but they occasionally slip and bring something up. Then it's "no, no, I can't talk politics with you" and I call "FOUL - YOU brought it up!"

I cut them a lot of slack because because they both come from a more difficult background than I do. My stock response to them lately is just "where the heck are you getting this stuff" with a head shake and roll of the eyes.

LOL!

[barbtries]

62. i work with a man

who's not a teabagger, more like a libertarian, but possibly also a closet racist. i say this because he is rabidly against Obama and he says it's because of taxes - maybe for him it is, i don't know. so the other day he came up and repeated some crap he probably heard from Rush or fox news and i didn't engage him at all, i just said, "who said that?' with a smile and pretty soon the conversation was over.

[Barack_America]

16. Sounds like they sit around and watch Fox News. nt

[Bonhomme Richard]

17. I too was baffled but now I see it as a.....

reaction to feeling helpless, which leads to anger, which then leads to contempt for those less fortunate or less able to defend themselves, and become blinded to all else.
For whatever reason they cannot accept their situation as their own responsibility, and these people I know are not bad off. A couple of years ago I was doing well and had to write a tax check in the neighborhood of $70,000 dollars. Did I like doing it? Of course not, but I knew that if I hadn't made so much money then I wouldn't be writing such a large check. Those wingers I know would have flown into a absolute rage over it.
I look at it as a character flaw which comes to light when to touch that inner rage.

[treestar]

20. I'd stay friends but every once in a while to maintain sanity and because you might make

an inroad, do a polite challenge. Obama is a Marxist - ask them what a Marxist is. They may realize they really don't know. Obama hates America - ask they do they avoid listening to his speeches? have they ever actually watched him for themselves? Because they don't. "I've heard him speak and I don't get that impression that he hates America." Just give them the idea they aren't really seeing all and may be missing out on something.

Fox News is Fair and Balanced - well that's what they say but they aren't. Why not try other news outlets from time to time just to see?

Rush is obviously conservative, so why not listen to a liberal too and then make up your mind? Why not listen to both sides before deciding - if you were a judge or jury would you only hear one side?

If they are truly nice people they will have some food for thought there. The trick is not to be snide, superior and mean (many liberals are, and they turn people off).

With the budget, they just don't really know how much is spent on welfare. They just need to see the pie chart of where the money goes.

[CanonRay]

22. I have friends just like them

and I've never been able to understand the willfull stupidity from people who are not stupid.

[TrogL]

23. They are authoritarian followers. There's nothing you can do. Walk away.

see link below

[canoeist52]

24. Conservative TV and radio with the churches to back them up

turns the nicest people into rabid haters. Ask them where they get their news.

[HopeHoops]

25. Not possible.

[Ian David]

27. Just tell them you cannot be friends with bigots who have hate in their heart.

Tell them to reexamine some of their beliefs, and maybe you can be friends with them again.

If they are truly good people who are simply misinformed, this may be the kind of shock to the system they need.

Also, tell them you'll pray for them.

[marions ghost]

36. "truly good people who are misinformed"

that describes quite a few. I would say they are misinformed and manipulated --by powerful extremists.

I think that anyone who claims to be Republican these days is clueless. However I do have this one intelligent acquaintance who will vote for Bombney and is a Global Warming denier. I see the cognitive dissonance in her. She is one of the wealthy who wants to protect the wealthy at the expense of the rest of us. Yet in everyday dealings she is thoughtful, kind, caring. I'm nice to her, but I feel like I'm in the presence of a very brainwashed individual. I sort of treat her compassionately, like someone who's in the early stages of dementia or otherwise has lost their mind.

[Swede Atlanta]

28. I'm going to be visiting an Aunt and Uncle in the next couple of weeks......

They are very conservative, not total nutcases, but conservative. Interesting enough her 57 year old son, an alcoholic, tried to kill himself and is on Medicaid. She and her husband live almost exclusively on Social Security and rely on Medicare for their health care.
So when she decries social programs I have to remind her of her dependence on these programs.

But I have already told her that we will not discuss politics over the weekend we are visiting. We will not turn on Fox News. We will confine ourselves to spending time together, doing some genealogy, etc. but let's keep politics our of our discussions.

In the past we have had several times when we took a long hiatus from any communication because of political differences.

[marions ghost]

38. Good Luck

Good idea to set some rules of engagement.

If it wouldn't hurt a lot of other people I'd like these people to have to go without medicare, SS, medicaid. They'd come around real fast.

[dmosh42]

29. Wacked out from religion, and can't think for themselves!

[Flashmann]

31. These folks sound very much like my

Wife's aunt,Mother in Laws sister.Same crazy bullshit,plus Obama's also the antichrist.When confronted,in a calm manner,with facts and reason,she has the ability to APPEAR as if she may be reconsidering....That illusion is usually shattered within seconds,as she brings in another facet if the asshattery..

If it weren't for being unable to avoid her,at various extended family functions,I'd never waste one more second on her and would do what I'm suggesting to you....RUN AWAY!!.As fast and and far as you can.....These folks will NEVER see reason or logic or develope the capability to distinquish fact from fantasy.

The adage"I beat my head against the wall,because it feels so good when I stop", will make sense to you once you separate yourself from their insanity.

[riverwalker]

32. no

"will do anything for anyone who asks them."

Forgive my cynicism, but I really, really doubt this. As long as "anyone" is not brown, or Muslim, or gay, or poor.

[luckyleftyme2]

33. simple

If he was self employed he probably had two prices;one for those he would have to show on the books and one for friends which he paid no taxes on. this underground economy is rampant in america. you don't think so-well its everywhere.
how many ever worked for an employer who just gave you a raise because you made them money? rare right-how many of you worked for an employer that was getting reimbursed for part of your wages(few if any ever told you)!
the little guy in business is satisfied with this little perk while the big guy like g.e. pays no income tax.
I worked for wealthy people most of my life in construction,housing developments etc.
the more they make the less they want to pay their fair share!

[raouldukelives]

34. What church?

When I'm around my conservative family members who are self-identified Christians and they start crossing lines I always find a well placed "Well, I leave judgement to the Lord." or any number of references to the actual words of Jesus, you know, feed, clothe, heal, all that jazz usually gives them a flustered look and a sad. Generally I find they are religious because they are expected to be religious. If you start actually debating what they are called to do by their Lord for the lowest of the low, against the moneychangers, to pay your taxes without complaining. They stammer, get a disconcerted look and wander off in confusion.

[peace13]

35. My mother and both sisters fit this description.

I have had to stop most contact with them. I am the caregiver for my older sister and the other two can not let the politics and religion go! They will blind side me at any turn. Mom is up here for a six week visit and is staying with a local church member because she can not stop watching FOX for one day here. She actually panics if she does not have access to it. 'I have a right to be an informed conservative America'. If you watch that channel you will see nothing but a current of anger and hate. How can we expect these folks to be normal after watching that day after day?

Before mom came up for this last trip she said that she would love to have time together with me while she is here. This is her usual hand reach effort which will end up in fights especially during this political season. I told her that I would be willing to go to psychiatrist visits with her while she was here to work on our relationship. If she didn't want to do that then treating each other cordially would be the best that we could hope for. She wasn't willing to try.

As sad as it is I think that your relationship with these folks will be stressed well past the election. When President Obama is reelected they will not rest easy. Their church and misguided faith in FOX is leading them down a path of isolation and destruction I fear.

[marions ghost]

39. How can we expect those folks to be normal after watching Fox day after day?

That's the way to forgive her. Her brain is not in your hands.

[peace13]

43. I am not currently in the market to forgive her.

You are correct, her brain is not in my hands but her body is in my life and I have obligations to my sister who is very ill. There is work to be done and mother interjecting politics and religion into the situation is nothing but destructive. As it goes, mother is free to have her thoughts and ideas. The rest of us should we choose to think differently are hell bound people who intend to ruin America. She even tells my sister who is in Hospice that she needs to watch FOX. That it will make her feel connected to the world.

The two of us will never meet minds without outside help. The point of my post is that these folks are ruthless. They have some sort of feeling that they are justified in hating poor people, people of color and people of the liberal persuasion. They will not change and if the OP is experiencing problems with this type of friend the hatches should be battened because the ride is a long one.

You may be fortunate enough to not know any of these people and I am excited for you if you don't.

Mom's brain is insecure and it has sucked like a leach to FOX news and her fanatic religious views.

Quite frankly if I had to go to heaven with people like her I would much rather stoke the fires of *ell.

[marions ghost]

45. I understand ruthless people

& have been victimized by a couple of them myself --not to mention how we all have been victimized by the evildoers working in and behind our own government. There's probably not a single soul at DU who feels entirely safe from ruthless people.

If your mother is truly without conscience then no, you can't help her. Forgiveness (or processing for you, more accurately) can wait. Sure joint therapy would help but she needs deprogramming. Seems doubtful you could persuade her to do any counseling but ya never know. Anyway, not a priority in light of your current situation.

The clue to your Mom that I read in your statement is that she feels she must have Fox "to make her feel connected to the world." Obviously she has no other anchor than that. Sad, but also sad that so many are in the same delusional state. The suggestion that your sister "needs Fox" is insensitive to the point of absurdity IMO. People in hospice do not need to feel more connected to the world (is Mom trying to pull her back from the brink?) People in hospice need to feel resolved that they are leaving this world and preparing for the journey beyond, according to their beliefs. You Mom is in denial about your sister, seems to me. You are having to assume the mature role in this and that's a big job. Try not to take on your mother's negativity and her view of you, which you know is based on lies. Rise above in this, do the real work of the angels for your sis, and put your Mom in perspective (ie. she is not a helper to you). She will reap what she has sown, don't worry. Another ordeal may come if you are called upon to nurse/help Mom at any point (if that happens get a counselor yourself to get thru it).

The rightwing brain-washers deserve at least half of your justified anger and hurt. They choose their fragile victims and they bend them to their will.

I really have been there...

[peace13]

67. Thank you for these kind words.

You hit the mark. Peace, Kim

[Xyzse]

37. Sir,

I remove politics in friendships, particularly long standing ones.
It only becomes a problem when they decide that they can't agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I won't bring up politics, they won't to me, so we can respect each other in that manner.

Fortunately, that is few and far between, and thankfully also they are not very close friends.

The only one I have problems with is my mother. She has fallen over the right wing edge.

[reflection]

40. They are probably buying to the narrative

that Godly people are Republicans. Use Jesus' attitudes towards the poor, as well as his thoughts on greed and avarice, to see if you can penetrate and interrupt that line of thought. If they are truly devoutly religious people, they will gravitate to their Bible's teachings. Also point out that food stamps and welfare are 2% of GDP, while the military is ten times that. Would Jesus build bombs or feed people? Also point out that Romney is no conservative, that he is just renting their party like a tuxedo, and will return it the worse for wear the day after he loses. Good luck.

[kctim]

44. Family and friends

are so much more important than politics.

They have their beliefs and you have yours. They probably feel the same way about your beliefs as you do theirs.
The best thing is to remember that neither of your beliefs make you smarter, more hateful or better than the other. They are nothing more than differing opinions on the what government is responsible for, and what the individual is responsible for.

It would be silly and childish to not remain friends with them.

[jillan]

46. Can you be with them an not discuss politics? I worked with a woman like that for many years.

I liked her as a person, loved her as a co-worker and was able to work alongside her without ever discussing politics.

If you can maintain that type of relationship, then don't lose their friendship BUT if politics gets in the way - then stay away from them.

[Arugula Latte]

47. Personally, I couldn't do it, but it sounds like you have more tolerance for that sort of stuff.

It sickens me when I know peoples' true beliefs and they are wingnuts, or even mildly Republican. It colors everything to me. I have tried to compartmentalize but it doesn't work for me. My mother's boyfriend is Republican (she's always saying "he's not very political!&quot . According to her, everyone thinks he's just the nicest guy in the world. She might be right. She's FINALLY figured out that I will never warm up to him, even after several years. I try to be civilized when I'm around him, but I really would prefer to have absolutely nothing to do with him. He lets some stupid comment slip and I sit there and marvel over how she can stand to be with such a dumbass, feeling resentful he's in my life, not through my choice.

[LeftinOH]

49. A lot of very nice people don't have a f*ckin' clue about anything...

which (from my observation) accounts for why they are so incredibly nice. Ignorance is bliss.

[JHB]

51. Ask them if they think the tax rates below are socialist:

(leave off the date if possible)



If they say "yes", remind them that these are the inflation-adjusted numbers for real-life taxes in this country when they were young. Their parents paid these taxes, as did they until Kennedy, when the rates on the lower brackets were cut some and the upper ones by a lot (but still topping out at 70%).

If that is "socialist", what were the Russians? And why all the talk of "socialism" and "Marxist" when nothing he proposes comes close to actual historical policy in the USA?

After all, there's such a fuss as to increasing taxes on income over $250K. In 1955 there were 16 brackets that affected incomes over the equivalent of that. Out of 24 total brackets! Yet Ike and his VP Richard Nixon did not exactly go around with a hammer in one hand and a sickle in the other.

So why all the drama now?

[barbtries]

52. it's up to you.

eventually you may not be able to stand to be around them. i'm sorry i cannot advise you, it becomes a matter of priority. friends are very important. i haven't disowned my republican brother and sister nor have they disowned me, but we do better when we don't talk politics. i don't think they're as out there as your friends appear to be, though my brother may be. you may want to unlike them on FB so you don't need to be offended by that crap. i've been unfriended by people and it took a long time before i knew it. i'm sure it's because i put a lot of political stuff on my wall.

[bluerum]

53. You have to decide for yourself.

[Bluenorthwest]

54. If you like bigoted people and think that's 'truly nice' then don't know what to tell you.

You call them 'nice' and yet say they post hate online. How is it truly nice to be a hate mongering homophobe?
I'd say that the company one keeps often defines a person.

[reformist2]

55. Ask them to read news/commentary from opposing viewpoints.

I think this is the litmus test. I've actually had people tell me they don't *want* to read anything else! It's like they're genuinely afraid they'll be brainwashed by even listening to the other side for just a few minutes. That's when you know they're too far gone, and it's not worth arguing anymore.

[barbtries]

66. i have to admit though

i won't go to Politico, drudge, or any site that i believe to be right wing.

[reformist2]

68. I can't look at Drudge/Fox, but I do read the WSJ - it is maddening, but I do it.

[barbtries]

69. my boss reads that

and the economist which i read somewhere else leans right. she's still a liberal for the most part though thankfully.

[reformist2]

70. The WSJ is turning hard right, but the good news is their arguments are more pathetic than ever.

Just one example: They praised Romney's tax and budget proposal for lowering rates, but said that it didn't matter that Romney failed to mention a single tax loophole he would close!

[LuckyLib]

56. I have very clear feelings where this dilemma is concerned:

Life is short. Very short. Shorter than many of us can know. Keep such folks either out of your life or at such distance as to be almost invisible. Surround yourself with folks who are thoughtful, informed, nurturing, AND concerned about their fellow human beings, folks who do not allow themselves to be "informed" by the poison that is out there that passes for discourse.

[Cleita]

57. You can, but maybe you need to talk about politics when you are around them.

Gently, of course. My beautician is a wing nut. She's very nice but comes up with stuff like, "I worked hard all my life and no one ever gave me anything," and other RWing talking points we are so familiar with. So I engage her by saying something like, "Me too, and I really worked hard for my Social Security and now that I get it I can come to you and get my hair done. When you get your Social Security, you will see how important it is, no matter what other retirement you have saved for."

The thing is to find something you both agree with and take it from there. Be prepared to back up everything you say because they can find crazy stuff to pull out of the woodwork and throw at you. Always be gentle and agree with them when they are right (not often) but again it's another jumping off point. Definitely, do not fall for the anecdotal, they have a friend who....etc. story. Always pin them down as to when, where and how that happened to a friend. Usually, their story falls apart and they back off.

GOOD LUCK!

[mstinamotorcity2]

63. What I find about friends like them

they just don't get it. But when I see them getting it, whatever it is,I just connect it to the Government. They start a new business I ask did they get a loan and if it was a Government backed. Got a check for that dough nut hole. Government.Got back insurance check from Affordable Care Act? Government. Did your Job get out-sourced and away went your pensions? Had to rely on Government backed pension or you would be in ruins. Government.Did you modify your mortgage and was able to advert foreclosure???Government,Government. Just got a new road or bridge and it rides so smooth or looks so nice??Government.I no longer argue facts. I just point them out when they are taking advantage of the things that Government does to help ensure that Americans can lead productive lives. And whenever they try and act like Government is not their answer. I always tell them if you don't like what Government gives you, Then give it back and don't accept it. They will never give back anything Government gives them. Try it. When they talk about the Socialist and all these silly terms tell them to give whatever Government socialist thing they are taking advantage of and tell them if you don't like it give it back. Will never happen. Then laugh and say you won't give it back but your side is the one who wants to take it.

[Zorra]

64. I'm sure some Nazis were fine upstanding churchgoing folks also, and probably even felt a twinge of

regret when they saw their Jewish, Rom, LGBT, or *other*, neighbors being hauled off to Auschwitz by the SS.

Later they probably justified their lack of concern and action by saying, "It's a shame, but we just didn't know.

The seemingly kindly GOP grandma next door could be voting to put LGBT folks in prison a year from now.

Never doubt the frightening ability to rationalize hatred and evil that exists in the conscience of a conservative.

(I know, I know, I just transgressed the law of the Supreme Godwin of the Internets, blah blah blah, but i don't care because I'm an unbeliever)

[Populist_Prole]

65. Fascinating thread. I'm in a similar situation and like the comments.

I have 2 friends who are exactly just like the ones you describe: I mean other than their occupations, I'd swear they were my friends! What's the most frustrating thing for me is that they more or less became this way only the past half-dozen years....after they retired: They're 10 -12 years older than me and used to be coworkers of mine. They may not have been officially liberal, but they were always anti-republican and pro-democratic party mostly due to class/labor issues. My nearest guess is the "I got mine" syndrome took away any concern for the working class. Race is an issue I'm sure as well, based on their ugly comments. I've been friends with them for 20+ years and we enjoy each other's company if politics don't come up, but I can feel the strain on our relations all the same.

My father is another matter. He just won't let politics go and becomes very loud, angry and tries to bully his way to you taking his view while positively dismissing any others. He's relentless! We used to get along good but to be honest I simply can't stand being around him to the point I avoid visiting him.

I hope they all mellow out when Obama wins and just try to focus on what's good with heir lives. Fat chance, eh?