Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

greenman3610

(3,947 posts)
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 03:28 PM Apr 2020

New Michael Moore film is utterly bogus claptrap on solar, wind energy

https://ketanjoshi.co/2020/04/24/planet-of-the-humans-a-reheated-mess-of-lazy-old-myths/



Putting aside the sites they visit and the footage they use, there are some ideas in this documentary that are well worn and highly recognisable memes from the 2009 – 2013 climate denial wonder years.

You can tell when someone’s knowledge of this has formed solely from doing a Google search for “solar panels bad don’t like”, and it really shows in this film.

It’s important to be really clear about this: Zehner’s remarks in this film are toxic misinformation, on par with the worst climate change deniers.

This film is a long, slow painful monument to laziness

-------

the film is so demonstrably bad, playing into the hands of the most execrable climate denial
and fossil fuel interests, that Moore's only way forward is to apologize and disavow -
otherwise insuring his reputation will be permanently, fatally stained.
50 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
New Michael Moore film is utterly bogus claptrap on solar, wind energy (Original Post) greenman3610 Apr 2020 OP
if you watched this movie and didn't know better you'd think solar panels Blues Heron Apr 2020 #1
As the OP said, lazy caraher Apr 2020 #50
His reputation should have been destroyed after he backed Nader in 2000. HarlanPepper Apr 2020 #2
agree there greenman3610 Apr 2020 #8
AND (documented on one of his films!, not TV appearance) his claim that Hortensis Apr 2020 #30
Duplicate, deleted. Hortensis Apr 2020 #31
I am not surprised Gothmog Apr 2020 #3
He Had To Do Something To Garner Attention Me. Apr 2020 #4
I watched it to the end of the end of the credits. riverbendviewgal Apr 2020 #5
I only saw a third of it but was sad to marlakay Apr 2020 #11
Actually, there are compelling movements for less. Hortensis Apr 2020 #32
How is this a 'Michael Moore film', exactly? mr_lebowski Apr 2020 #6
It amazes me how people so blatantly miss the point when confronted defacto7 Apr 2020 #19
No, no, and no. coti Apr 2020 #24
Moore's PROBLEM is that sustainable living and commitment Hortensis Apr 2020 #33
A Good Observation, Ma'am The Magistrate Apr 2020 #42
I'm so done with Michael Moores 'Quest for Relevance'. Its been a long slow decline and it's ... marble falls Apr 2020 #7
Moore's other PROBLEM is success. Early on people listened Hortensis Apr 2020 #34
I've been expecting this kind of response since watching the film lunatica Apr 2020 #9
From the sound of it it's just a fossil fuel propaganda film rockfordfile Apr 2020 #10
Far from it randr Apr 2020 #12
The opposite.. defacto7 Apr 2020 #18
Yeah, they're trying to kill morale, like the posters here. coti Apr 2020 #25
Michael Moore made a film against renewable energy? wryter2000 Apr 2020 #13
Solar panels, wind turbines, and electric cars are not going to save the world. hunter Apr 2020 #14
This! defacto7 Apr 2020 #17
Damn, another duplicate post glitch. Deleted but I'll add Hortensis Apr 2020 #37
Bingo. Blue_true Apr 2020 #45
Birth rates ARE dropping without evil compulsion. I haven't Hortensis Apr 2020 #38
If forced or government mandated birth control is used, you are right, Blue_true Apr 2020 #46
Yes Dem2 Apr 2020 #47
Some of those things are extremely hard to do. StevieM Apr 2020 #20
People pay HUGE premiums and abandon their cars to live in cities. hunter Apr 2020 #39
Uhhh...If I'm powering a car with clean solar power, why couldn't the Earth support that? coti Apr 2020 #26
The resources to make all those cars, Codeine Apr 2020 #36
The "resources" to make gas-powered cars, and to power them, are even more enormous. Much more. coti Apr 2020 #40
Exactly. Codeine Apr 2020 #41
No, you're creating a much, much better situation. nt coti Apr 2020 #43
wow. I am so ashamed. not_the_one Apr 2020 #44
Those were scientists who made the film Beringia Apr 2020 #15
30 minutes in, it's a dumbed down attack on renewable energy. Toxic misinformation is right. Alex4Martinez Apr 2020 #16
Yup, this is right-wing garbage and shouldn't be getting pushed on DU. nt coti Apr 2020 #27
Also dissident left. Lots of overlap generated by common hostilities. Hortensis Apr 2020 #35
I think I'll wait for the Energy & Environmental Forum's Resident Curmudgeon Vogon_Glory Apr 2020 #21
No, they can't carry the load by themselves without energy storage also. coti Apr 2020 #28
Storage is the Achilles Heel of Wind and Solar power. Blue_true Apr 2020 #48
Well, the film pretty much ignores nuclear caraher Apr 2020 #49
the distributor of Michael Moore's #PlanetoftheHumans is taking the film down due to misinformation Gothmog Apr 2020 #22
flamethrowing, but thought-provoking LoneStarNot1 Apr 2020 #23
People Prattling That 'Overpopulation Is The Problem', Sir The Magistrate Apr 2020 #29

Blues Heron

(5,931 posts)
1. if you watched this movie and didn't know better you'd think solar panels
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 03:31 PM
Apr 2020

cost more in energy than they generate over their entire lifetime. You'd be wrong.

it was a pitiful hack job hit piece.

caraher

(6,278 posts)
50. As the OP said, lazy
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 11:54 PM
Apr 2020

Fossil fuels used to make solar panels --> energy from solar panels is fossil fuel energy --> we never should have bothered making solar panels at all

No quantitative analysis at all. Just flinging poo at PV

 

HarlanPepper

(2,042 posts)
2. His reputation should have been destroyed after he backed Nader in 2000.
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 03:33 PM
Apr 2020

That’s when I got off the train, myself.

greenman3610

(3,947 posts)
8. agree there
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 04:23 PM
Apr 2020

one more reason he wants to tear Al Gore down,
a living reminder that Moore was part of bringing that
plague on the country

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
30. AND (documented on one of his films!, not TV appearance) his claim that
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 05:01 PM
Apr 2020

President Barack Obama told parents in Flint to give their children poisoned water. (!)

He's usually careful to NOT document his more blatant anti-Democratic Party lies in his films. Insinuations, innuendo, insidious backstabbing while claiming to support the same goals during interviews instead.

Classic scorpion. "Because it's my nature."

riverbendviewgal

(4,252 posts)
5. I watched it to the end of the end of the credits.
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 03:50 PM
Apr 2020

I have questions.

About using wood chips for fuel. Does the air get filled with pollution?
Do the cleared land get replanted? It did seem to show that it is stripped naked.
I hated seeing the dying orangaton near the end of the movie pulled from his habitat that was completely destroyed. Isn't that a problem?
I felt sick when live cows and horses were put in a machine that was to turn them into animal fat oil for fuel.

I read Ken joshi's review. I could only read him say it was not factual. What exactly was not factual?
I read a lot of tweets from that review, for and against the documentary that is on you tube for free.

Let's hear a discussion between the people in the documentary. For everyone to hear,


The jist of what Moore was trying to come across was that the planet will not survive all the rapid consumption. We must change our way of living.
Our greed for more is killing our planet.

marlakay

(11,446 posts)
11. I only saw a third of it but was sad to
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 04:57 PM
Apr 2020

Hear about solar and wind. So many here ready to jump all over Mike and if his people did pick and choose the worst of it I can see why.

But the real discussion should be where we are now 2020 and what we all can do about it. If it is about consuming less then we should be encouraging more buying things from bulk places in reusable jars, giving credits to companies that have less wasteful packaging. Things like that.

In the old days things were made to last and yet we could still afford that. Why? Because CEO’s and other executives didn’t make as much?

At the beginning of this virus thing I talked to my step daughter about cloth diapers, she was worried about running out for her baby. You would think I was talking to her about the cave days by her reaction.

In order to really fix things people are going to have to toughen up and stop being spoiled brats.

Not sure if America will do that.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
32. Actually, there are compelling movements for less.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 05:06 PM
Apr 2020

Look around. Meat counters are a good place to start. And understand, most people don't buy $30 steaks.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
6. How is this a 'Michael Moore film', exactly?
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 04:02 PM
Apr 2020

If the overall thrust of this movie is that renewables are not going to get us around the sad reality that billions of humans are going to need to die off (or SIGNIFICANTLY simplify their existences, globally) in order to avert climate disaster at this point ... which from what I understand of it from reviews IS kinda the point ... then I agree with that thesis.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
19. It amazes me how people so blatantly miss the point when confronted
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 07:02 PM
Apr 2020

by the weakness in their intellectual investment. You are right on the point. Our problem is over population and the renewable industry will not solve it. The renewable industry is the fossil fuel industry and it's making the environment worse not better. That is the message of the video and they present the evidence quite clearly. To me it wasn't new information but the truth certainly would raise the hackles of a lot of well meaning people.

coti

(4,612 posts)
24. No, no, and no.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 04:47 PM
Apr 2020

Do not equivocate the fossil fuel and renewable industries. That's just a lie.

And your point seems to be that taking any one action that won't itself entirely resolve a problem is pointless. That also isn't true. Yes, we also need a comprehensive strategy. Addressing overpopulation will be even more difficult than switching from fossil fuels to renewables, but that doesn't make the first task any less important.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
33. Moore's PROBLEM is that sustainable living and commitment
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 05:10 PM
Apr 2020

to renewable resources have gone mainstream, overwhelmingly on the left but also substantially among some on the right.

And Moore is wired to oppose whatever is mainstream. A typical type. That's why he's pulled six directions at once opposing both what was and whatever we're moving toward.

Bless his screwed-up scorpion heart.

marble falls

(57,063 posts)
7. I'm so done with Michael Moores 'Quest for Relevance'. Its been a long slow decline and it's ...
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 04:02 PM
Apr 2020

gone from sad to pathetic to disgusting.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
34. Moore's other PROBLEM is success. Early on people listened
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 05:20 PM
Apr 2020

-- and caught up with him. When he displayed truth, it was compelling.

But his valuable messages, like Rachel Carson's 'Silent Spring,' went mainstream. And since he can't accept mainstream, but sought continued wealth and attention, what was left was feeding more extreme opposition regardless of honesty or value of messages. And not a big change for his disposition, just a stronger focus.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
9. I've been expecting this kind of response since watching the film
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 04:26 PM
Apr 2020

It struck me as picking and choosing “facts” in order to support the filmmaker’s point of view rather than looking for the truth.

Whenever Al Gore was supposedly “nailed” by a question the filmmaker didn’t ever include Gore’s answer.

Now I’m wondering why Michael Moore is backing it. I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but I want him to be straight with us.

randr

(12,409 posts)
12. Far from it
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 05:08 PM
Apr 2020

If only a small part of the accusations are correct we have been hood winked by the petro predators.
The human population and the greed of billionaires who fuel our addiction to consumption are the herd of elephants in the room.
When the only pot you got gets too hot just because you are in it ???

coti

(4,612 posts)
25. Yeah, they're trying to kill morale, like the posters here.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 04:50 PM
Apr 2020

They're shifting the energy use problem into an area of near hopelessness.

wryter2000

(46,032 posts)
13. Michael Moore made a film against renewable energy?
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 05:28 PM
Apr 2020

Okay. Now, he's really lost it. I swear, the guy was great in the 1990's.

hunter

(38,309 posts)
14. Solar panels, wind turbines, and electric cars are not going to save the world.
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 05:29 PM
Apr 2020

For the most part they are simply more consumer crap. This planet cannot support a car for every adult human, no matter how those cars might be powered.

Economic "productivity" as we now define it is a direct measure of the damage we are doing to the earth's natural environment and our own human spirit.

You want to save the world? Then make sure EVERYONE has access to birth control and realistic no-bullshit sex education. Make sure everyone has a safe place to live, healthy food to eat, and safe comfortable housing. Make sure everyone is literate, numerate, and knows how to sift good information from bad.

If we had any sense we'd be paying people to experiment with lifestyles having a very small environmental footprints and we'd be judging the success of these experiments in terms of happiness and sustainability.

Having solar panels on the roof of your 5000 square foot home and a Tesla in your driveway does not make you an enlightened person.



Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
37. Damn, another duplicate post glitch. Deleted but I'll add
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 05:47 PM
Apr 2020

that the entire planet is becoming more sophisticated. Hillary spent 8 years traveling the world encouraging new work opportunities for women because when women have the choice between the opportunity to provide good lives for the children they have and having more children, they overwhelmingly choose good lives.

No need to go around handing out temporary supplies of contraceptives with hand gestures on use to presumed illiterates. Women empowered with incomes tend to their own contraception. And until this pandemic, poverty rates had plummeted to what had been unimaginable lows just a few years ago, and will again.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
45. Bingo.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 11:16 PM
Apr 2020

There is a pretty direct correlation between the magnitude of opportunities women have and the number of kids on average they have. Women with more economic opportunities have fewer children and provide those children with a better life.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
38. Birth rates ARE dropping without evil compulsion. I haven't
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 05:47 PM
Apr 2020

checked projections in a few years, but we are headed for apparently inevitable planetary negative population growth. We're already there in many advanced nations; without immigration from the south, our population in the U.S. would have been shrinking dramatically for decades now.

It may not happen not soon enough, but it is increasingly happening by CHOICE around the planet, without forced sterilization of millions or genocide.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
46. If forced or government mandated birth control is used, you are right,
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 11:21 PM
Apr 2020

it will be forced more on the "undesirables" in societies. We would essentially get eugenics without calling it that.

You pointed to what Hillary did, that is the way to do it, women that are educated and have more career opportunities have fewer kids, if they choose to have kids at all.

Dem2

(8,168 posts)
47. Yes
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 11:43 PM
Apr 2020

I spent a few hours studying the populations of all the large countries and their trends over time, it seems clear that what you say is true. Most countries are trending downward and many will hit negative growth relatively soon.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

StevieM

(10,500 posts)
20. Some of those things are extremely hard to do.
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 07:14 PM
Apr 2020

For example, if you want everyone to have "comfortable" housing, that takes a certain amount of energy usage in order to build the housing.

It is also hard to get so many people from home to work, of even from work to grocery stores, without a car if they don't live in a major city. Cities take time to build, a lot of people don't want to live in them, and, again, it takes a lot of energy to build a new city.

I think that we need a massive expansion of nuclear energy in order to address climate change. Renewables can be in the mix, certainly, but nuclear should be a key component, not something we are looking to do away with. And I like NNadir's idea for DME. I don't agree with him that we can eliminate car culture, as he calls it, but I would like to look into running them on DME.

hunter

(38,309 posts)
39. People pay HUGE premiums and abandon their cars to live in cities.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 05:57 PM
Apr 2020

Check out the rents in San Francisco. Parking not included. I have family there.

My own small California city is building more and more downtown housing. The competition for this housing, both high income and subsidized, is intense.

I live in a high density suburb and work at home. I can walk or bike to our neighborhood supermarket but mostly I stop by in my car while I'm out running other errands.

If I was selling DME I'd start with the weekend BBQ crowd, calling it Freedom Fuel or something similar. Next step would be screaming plug-in hybrid vehicles that accelerate 0-60mph in five seconds or less. No need to tell anyone it's a modest diesel engine powering the car and keeping the batteries topped up on longer road trips.



coti

(4,612 posts)
26. Uhhh...If I'm powering a car with clean solar power, why couldn't the Earth support that?
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 04:51 PM
Apr 2020

For that matter, why couldn't the Earth and Sun support a million solar-powered cars? Or a whole lot more?

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
36. The resources to make all those cars,
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 05:45 PM
Apr 2020

and the panels, and the batteries, and the energy expended to produce them is enormous. Technologically-advanced automobiles and the energy systems that fuel them do not spring fully-formed into being like Athena from Zeus’ forehead.

And then dealing with the waste generated by the end of lifecycle of those products is another issue.

coti

(4,612 posts)
40. The "resources" to make gas-powered cars, and to power them, are even more enormous. Much more.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 07:52 PM
Apr 2020

Imagine how many "resources" it takes to find, drill and pull oil out of the ground, transport millions of barrels of it halfway around the world every day, process it, drive it to gas stations, pump it, and then burn it. Oh, and to clean up after it when it's spilled.

And don't forget the resources it takes to build militaries to fight over it, and how many people die doing so. Hundreds of billions of dollars per year fighting over oil.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
41. Exactly.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 08:11 PM
Apr 2020

You’re just switching one problem for another, that’s my point. We don’t need a power unit change, we need a paradigm change.

 

not_the_one

(2,227 posts)
44. wow. I am so ashamed.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 09:04 PM
Apr 2020

Not because I have a 5,000 sq ft home absolutely covered in solar panels, parked beside my fabulous Tesla, but because I WANT a home powered by solar energy, and an electric car that can be powered by solar energy. At THAT point, I am off the energy grid.

I can't leave zero imprint, but I can cut down. (yeah, I know, the car has to be built, the house has to be built, but it is providing jobs)

Shame on me.

Alex4Martinez

(2,193 posts)
16. 30 minutes in, it's a dumbed down attack on renewable energy. Toxic misinformation is right.
Sun Apr 26, 2020, 06:39 PM
Apr 2020

And I know energy, it's my field of expertise.

While no energy generation technology is without impact, the attacks in this film are unforgivable.

Why discuss photovoltaic modules with only 8% efficiency and 10 year lives when modern modules have ~20% efficiency and guaranteed service for 24 years?

Shame on them. It's like they went to every convention and presser they could and collected anything negative without factchecking with experts.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
35. Also dissident left. Lots of overlap generated by common hostilities.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 05:41 PM
Apr 2020

Thanks for the input, Alex4 and Coti. I took a sustainable energy MOOC a few years ago, not exactly professional expertise, but I couldn't even remember what I'd liked to have said.

Vogon_Glory

(9,117 posts)
21. I think I'll wait for the Energy & Environmental Forum's Resident Curmudgeon
Mon Apr 27, 2020, 04:44 AM
Apr 2020

Before I express my opinion. I will say that solar and wind are useful, but I don’t think they can carry the load by themselves.

coti

(4,612 posts)
28. No, they can't carry the load by themselves without energy storage also.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 04:55 PM
Apr 2020

With storage- such as with pumped hydro power- they can carry a huge piece of the load, at a minimum.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
48. Storage is the Achilles Heel of Wind and Solar power.
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 11:46 PM
Apr 2020

Consider the wattage that a large city like LA, NYC, Berlin need each day. Now imagine storing that energy so that those cities have power on say a period with three days of cloudy skies and no wind worth mentioning. The challenge is simply massive and none of the new, proposed methods have even scratched the surface of it. The structures that need to be built to make pumped-hydro storage even conceivable are impractical for most places that don't have deep, abandoned mine shafts nearby.

Are we going to build a big assed hole near NYC? What do we sacrifice to do that?

Someone pointed to nuclear power. While I am no big fan of it, the storage issue is irrelevant and the technical difficulties of solving the waste issues are surmountable. So nuclear power must be part of a future solution, unless someone comes up with a Holy Grail clean energy solution that borders on currently inconceivable.

LoneStarNot1

(1 post)
23. flamethrowing, but thought-provoking
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 04:39 PM
Apr 2020

For me, the VERY flawed film provoking some thought. It's a monkey slinging poo far and wide, but it pales compared to our Senate.
(hereafter "it" refers to the film)
In no special order, here are some of the PROs, CONs, and ??? I saw, and some of the hard NUTs to crack.

PRO: It reminded me how burning new biomass is akin to burning old biomass -- coal, oil & gas.
PRO: By contrast, it reminded me how ALL our cleanest energy options leverage sun & moon-driven MOTION & HEAT, not burning/oxidizing & releasing chemical energy.

NUT: Motion & heat conversion systems are nearly all large and expensive, requiring major energy transport/distribution ... since their core job is transforming very diffuse energy sources into the concentrated form we prefer: high-wattage electricity.

CON: It ignored physicists' reports that for each joule humans use, 6000 joules of solar energy fall on the 1/3 of earth (still) above water. All 7 billion of us can't figure how to capture 1/6000th of that energy? Really?

NUT: We're being GROSSLY profligate. Corporations have evolved to make money from the volume of redundant demand throw-away individuality bolsters; so they rail against cooperative reuse ... until some firm like Uber figures how to _monetize_ sharing. Our privatized, uncoordinated land management inveighs against co-location and sharing. Few on DU think of conservation as "a personal choice"; but national-scale management, with systems designed for conservation and reuse -- stymied by profit-taking -- WAS moving at a glacial pace -- 'til glaciers started moving faster. COVID is again highlighting the effectiveness of COORDINATED work. We're drowning in corporatist propaganda saying the kind of rapid responsiveness elsewhere would oblige us to autocratic communism. (What of S.Korea?) Meanwhile, OUR Congress persistently legislates against multiple points of majority agreement. WHO has an autocracy? We suffer corporate waste, and inefficiency because governmental coordination would be "overreach"? Really?
With multiple solutions in hand, why are we moving so slowly to net-zero buildings, to replace the buildings using ~40% of our energy? Because, though great numbers want it, our captured State is unable to act contrary to incumbent mega-industries like Home Depot and Ikea, feeding on our uncoordinated needs.
???: Of the non-chemical energy sources, does only hydro offer the wattage needed for high-energy uses like steel processing? Does that imply co-locating smelters near dams?

PRO: It reminded ME that the best we can do for the Earth is leave it alone as much as practicable.

NUT: Why was the success of BiosphereII slammed as a failure in our corporatized press, over a trifle? Because self-sustaining communities don't need ADM, Monsanto, & kin. SpreadCo in Japan has advertised growing 30,000 heads of lettuce a day indoors. Plenty Inc raised $200M to grow lettuce in the pricey SF Bay Area. But corporate media has mainly ignored MIT-led "OpenAg" efforts to democratize "controlled environment ag" and move away from pouring chemicals through the soil into rivers & lakes.

NUT: OUR confusion. Crop fertilizer is crop fertilizer, is a human-controlled thing. Run-off is UNCONTROLLED. Pouring "organic" manure on the soil is NOT better for Earth or humans than precisely titrating N-P-K or other molecules into an aeroponic/hydroponic feed solution. We progressives are still not effectively fighting incumbent FUD through language-muddling around terms like "organic".
PRO: It reminded me of the centrality of propaganda and corporate word games.

NUT: Scale! Where large natural ecosystems must be manipulated, private corporations won't do. The Dutch and others on the North Sea have _done_ massive earth works. We can't??? No, we _don't_ because that scale requires government; and our privateers use our captured State to block us going anywhere they don't profit from.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-california-go-100-percent-green/
Stanford's Mark Jacobson: "The main obstacle is that there are people with a financial interest in stopping it from happening."

NUT: One of the simplest, most mature, reliable energy storage systems known is pumped hydro. Why isn't it more used? Why is energy storage reported as such a tough problem? Yes, lots of earth-moving and equipment are needed up front, but the systems serve a long time. What's their real TCO? I'm not trying to kill off endangered species; not endorsing CARELESS assaults on nature ... but ... nature is pretty resilient, and mostly recovers when we keep our assaults well-bounded and controlled. [The only "justification" for nuclear is the energy density needed in: pacemakers, submarines, 1.2megaton bombs, etc]

CON: It implies Ivanpah failed, but Wikipedia reports increasing Ivanpah production thru 2019. Ivanpah's primary mechanism converts light to heat in a closed fluid -- then converts heat to electricity. The concentrated electric energy it produces thus takes from the heat energy the sun would have dispersed into that environment.

???: Can anyone here explain why Ivanpah uses gas energy instead of STORING enough solar heat to restart itself each morning?

CON: It reports a 20-year life for wind turbines. Towers are ultra-simple buildings. Much more complex buildings last much longer. EIA.gov reports a design lifespan of 20 years. (designed not to last by whom?) It also reports that mfrs have often replaced components to leverage improved technologies. Those aren't whole replacements, not wear-outs, those are "upgrades" by firms who are effectively paid extra to upgrade more often -- via write-offs, purchases from self & friends, etc.
How often do non-manufacturing owners, producing electricity for their own consumption replace wind turbines? A wind turbine has one set of blades, rotating on one axle. Toyotas & Hondas with 4-6 pistons exploded up & down at 1000s of RPM, while bouncing down bumpy roads, routinely last 30 years with untrained maintenance. How does 20 years make sense for a system with so few moving parts???
Forbes: "Offshore wind could generate 11 times more electricity than the world needs ... according to the International Energy Agency (IEA).


NUT: France's Rance tidal power station, finished in 1966, still offers 500GWh/yr. Why do we still have nothing comparable?
DoE estimated in 2012, non-powered US dams had 12,000 MW of potential hydropower capacity. Why are they non-powered?

NUT: More linguistic confusion around "efficiency". It matters little that a system may "inefficiently" handle large quantities to get proportionally small energies ... IF it produces the needed electricity at manageable costs without polluting consequences. Counting all the externalized costs, what is the real TCO and true efficiency of our conceptually-nonpolluting options: hydro, solar power towers, solar updraft towers, tidal systems, natural water and soil as heat sinks, etc?

CON: It's "overpopulation" argument is long discredited. If we want more babies, crush all the joy we can out of their lives, leaving only sex/procreation. If we want fewer, help them be happier engaging in other interesting things, with high confidence they will live to see their aspirations come to fruition.

The Magistrate

(95,244 posts)
29. People Prattling That 'Overpopulation Is The Problem', Sir
Tue Apr 28, 2020, 04:59 PM
Apr 2020

Need to square up honestly to the only remedies that might actually meet their concerns. Hard to square with their self-image as decent and enlightened people, doubtless, but that is their problem, and nobody else's....

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»New Michael Moore film is...