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Mon May 25, 2020, 04:46 PM

Gah! Another anti-mask pseudo-scientific argument

So I was chatting with a conservative family member today and he informs me that wearing masks in places like supermarkets suppresses repeated mild exposure to the virus which would slowly and safely inoculate the public. This is basically a spin on herd immunity that I hadn't heard before.

I concede that acquired immunity is a real thing and will likely play a role in the future. However, I'm not aware of any science that suggests you can safely inoculate through a limited exposure to the virus, even in a lab environment. So the "science" is bogus if it somehow leads to the conclusion that this is in any way good public policy.

My real question is where is this coming from? Is it a Limbaugh-ism? I haven't watched Carlson or Hannity in a few weeks, are they spewing this now? Good grief.

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Reply Gah! Another anti-mask pseudo-scientific argument (Original post)
Shermann May 2020 OP
LisaL May 2020 #1
Shermann May 2020 #3
LanternWaste May 2020 #6
Shermann May 2020 #31
madinmaryland May 2020 #10
LisaL May 2020 #14
LiberalArkie May 2020 #9
LisaL May 2020 #13
LiberalArkie May 2020 #24
PoindexterOglethorpe May 2020 #16
LisaL May 2020 #23
PoindexterOglethorpe May 2020 #25
Squinch May 2020 #2
Beartracks May 2020 #4
Shermann May 2020 #7
Grins May 2020 #5
Shermann May 2020 #11
jmg257 May 2020 #8
Beartracks May 2020 #12
Shermann May 2020 #17
LisaL May 2020 #19
Shermann May 2020 #22
kimbutgar May 2020 #15
Shermann May 2020 #20
tblue37 May 2020 #18
Azathoth May 2020 #21
4139 May 2020 #26
unblock May 2020 #27
Shermann May 2020 #28
TeamPooka May 2020 #29
Warpy May 2020 #30
COLGATE4 May 2020 #32

Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 04:49 PM

1. Virus replicates once it enters the body.

I don't believe there is such a thing as safe inoculation with a live virus. As for where they get it from-who the hell knows.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #1)

Mon May 25, 2020, 04:52 PM

3. Yeah ordinarily I wouldn't care

But being a family member I'd like to know where he's getting brainwashed from.

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Response to Shermann (Reply #3)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:00 PM

6. Have you tried simply asking him for the source of his info?

 

Or merely looking for a source on your own? Seems you should, as he appears to be effectively "stirring up crazies..." if your concern is in fact, sincere.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #6)

Mon May 25, 2020, 06:40 PM

31. He won't say

He'll vaguely cite "scientific papers" or whatever. That's not it, it's coming from some conservative blowhard celebrity, or maybe a blog or social media.

These things have fingerprints, though. If I can surprise him with that knowledge I can CRUSH the rickety framework.

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Response to Shermann (Reply #3)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:03 PM

10. I would suspect the usual culprits... OANN, Q, Breitbart, Fox News, Infowars, etc.

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Response to Shermann (Reply #3)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:10 PM

14. I have no way to know where your relative gets information.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #1)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:02 PM

9. There could be, the doctors that are in an ER loaded with covid patients get such a large amount

of virus, like those in nursing homes etc that they can't help but get it.

Itr may be a little at a time like with the regular flu and colds etc might help, but at the same time if a person has a bad immune system, might die pretty quick.

I worked at home as a programer for about 10 years. I got a job at Alltel in Little Rock. The first day at work I was in a big line of people getting their badges and out was also flu season. Was sick and down with pneumonia for 2 weeks.

Most of us are getting the little doses every so often, but we fight it off. But if we encounter a big scattering with a tiny different strain, probably go down.

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Response to LiberalArkie (Reply #9)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:09 PM

13. You can't control how much virus you are going to get by an exposure in a supermarket.

The idea that it will give you immunity without making you sick is absurd.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #13)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:28 PM

24. No one has even proved that immunity from this novel Coronavirus can be achieved.

And if it can be, does the immunity work between the different strains. Really the best that can be said is no one knows much of anything about it. It is only a 6 month old disease. How long did it take them to find out anything about HIV?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #1)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:12 PM

16. There are vaccines that use live viruses, so there is such a thing as safe inoculation

with a live virus. However, in the case of the vaccines, they've been weakened in a way that makes them safe, that is produces the desired immune response with the person getting ill from the disease. Which is very different from their nonsensical notion that small exposures will lead to immunity.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #16)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:20 PM

23. With a live virus vaccine, you get a specific dose of a weakened virus.

In a supermarket, you can't count on getting a small dose. If some guy coughs in your face, you get the mother-load right then and there.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #23)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:39 PM

25. Right. But it's still a live virus.

Weakened, but live. Please don't think I'm pointing this out to suggest that what those idiots are saying is correct. It's just that being precise matters a lot to me.

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Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 04:49 PM

2. Gosh. You sure do have a lot of concerns that require that you repeat right wing

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Response to Squinch (Reply #2)

Mon May 25, 2020, 04:57 PM

4. It's good to know what bullshit the right-wing is spewing. n/t

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Response to Squinch (Reply #2)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:01 PM

7. Well this particular right wing talking point I'm working on dismantling

The other was...that CNN is stirring up the right wing nutjobs? Clearly not a right wing talking point itself, although yes I offered up a mild criticism of CNN.

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Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 04:58 PM

5. Have him Google...

...Sweden coronavirus” and see how that herd immunity is working out for them.

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Response to Grins (Reply #5)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:04 PM

11. Thanks, yes we did discuss Sweden

He is stuck on the idea that their model is the way through this. That bit of wisdom is definitely being parroted on FXN.

Sweden has had an uptick but it hasn't raged out of control to the degree where this idea is discredited (yet).

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Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:01 PM

8. Who the hell knows where assholes get such stupid shit from...same place they

Learned Bill Gates wants to put chips in them, I imagine. Or that the death numbers are inflated so hospitals get more money.

Social media lets everyone express just what idiots they are. And then they herd with other idiots.

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Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:08 PM

12. Sounds like a Trumper-wishy idea of attenuated virus vaccines.

Attenuated viruses are not live viruses. They are introduced to the body to trigger the production of specific antibodies so if the person ever does encounter the live virus their body will be prepared to fight it off without the person getting sick: immunity. BUT you don't encounter attenuated viruses in the wild; infected people at the supermarket and pool parties in the Ozarks will only be shedding live virus when they cough and breathe. The idea that you can gradually "get used to" a virus is a) not even possible with a live virus, because b) that's not how immunity works in the first place.

But Republicans, in most every policy and priority they espouse, pay no attention at all to how things actually work. They do love to fling around their truthy-sounding bullshit.

==============

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #12)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:13 PM

17. There is likely a minimum viral load exposure necessary to get infected

So if you were lucky and were exposed to less than that, maybe just maybe you could build up some antibodies without getting sick.

But to suggest that wearing masks is counter-productive seems to be taking an uncontrollable (at best) or unproven (at worst) outlier scenario and making an absurdly dangerous idea out of it.

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Response to Shermann (Reply #17)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:15 PM

19. Frankly, cotton homemade mask is not going to block the virus-the virus is too small.

It might minimize it. So if someone wants to minimize their exposure, it only makes sense to wear a freaking mask.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #19)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:19 PM

22. That's too logical!

Err on the side of minimizing the exposure instead of maximizing it.

Logic goes out the window sometimes with conservatives...

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Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:10 PM

15. Snopes did a good break down of this argument

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/masks-dangerous-health/


What's True
Breathing in excessive carbon dioxide is dangerous for the body. Some people with preexisting respiratory illnesses may face health issues only with prolonged use of tight-fitting masks, such as respirators.
What's False
However, people wearing cloth or surgical masks are in little to no danger of breathing in unhealthy amounts of carbon dioxide.

Ultimately, the impact of a mask on its wearer depends on the wearer’s health, any pre-existing respiratory illnesses, the type of mask, and the length of time the person wears it. In most instances, the effects of prolonged cloth mask usage are small. Masks, like most short-term measures to prevent the spread of COVID-19, should be worn only if the wearer has to be in close proximity to others, and be used in addition to necessary measures like social distancing, and more. As such, we rate this claim about the dangers of masks as “Mostly false.”

And also ask them to research herd immunity in Sweden is failing and per capita they have high infection and death rates. But if your conservative family members insists he is correct then he really shouldn’t be forced to wear a mask and face the consequences.

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Response to kimbutgar (Reply #15)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:16 PM

20. Thanks, that seems to be a different bogus mask risk though nt

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Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:15 PM

18. Probably a false analogy to allergy shots. nt

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Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:16 PM

21. It doesn't work that way

You don't get repeated "mild" exposure. This isn't snake venom. You either get infected or you don't.

Initial viral load is probably important in determining the severity of your illness, but that's not something you can control in a supermarket.

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Response to Azathoth (Reply #21)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:45 PM

26. Had to look up viral load, here's a link... infectious dose and viral load

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Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:47 PM

27. If anything it's the reverse. Masks aren't perfect protection

masks aren't good at giving 100% protection, especially if the seal isn't perfect.

What they are good at doing, though, is turning a big viral load event, such as a direct sneeze from an contagious person, into a much smaller viral load event, as most of it is contained in the sneezer's mask, or, the sneezee's mask. But the sneezee might nevertheless get exposed to a small amount of virus that finds its way around the gaps.

So if anything, the sneeze allows for small viral load exposures.

The absence of a mask simply exposes you to a massive viral load.

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Response to unblock (Reply #27)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:51 PM

28. Yes that is of course more logical

I'm just curious which illogical conservative blowhard came up with this.

I think it's a bit radical for Carlson and Co. but you never know.

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Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:54 PM

29. A person cannot build up a "tolerance" to a virus

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Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 05:57 PM

30. Good grief, that's a new one on me

The only ways you'll acquire any immunity to this thing is either going through the disease, which is a bad one even with a mild case, or managing to avoid it until a vaccine comes out, is tested, and is distributed in such a way that non billionaires can get it.

The only way to buy time enough to see the latter is meticulous hygiene and wearing an N-95 mask. Cloth and paper masks will stop large droplets that can contain millions of viruses, slowing down the rate of infection even though they admit viruses fairly freely. Paper and cloth offer incomplete protection, but they do stop large droplets and keep your fingers off your face, another method of transmission.

So tell your conservative family member someone has fed him a whole boatload of hooey, that if he wants to live through this thing and protect the people around him to quit bitching and put on a damn mask.

Let him know if he finds the mask uncomfortable, he's really going to hate that endotracheal tube and ventilator.

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Response to Shermann (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2020, 10:44 PM

32. If that were true we would all

be immunized against the common cold (another coronavirus)

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