Why are we arguing about freedom of speech and not the Clerics and Ideology that caused the deaths?

[JCMach1]

What about the radical, Saudi-supported clerics and mosques that blanket the Muslim world and the fundamentalist message that is poisoning the waters of Islam?

That is the real threat and it is growing.

The blood is on their hands.

[polichick]

1. And we can't look at them without considering our own Christian extremists.

[orpupilofnature57]

4. Fundies live in the USA and though Demented

us Liberals would never allow any faction to engage in such violence, unless the MIC needed the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$, which is the spirit that guides our government.

[polichick]

12. They've incited plenty of violence - including Palin's targeting of Dem leaders...

... one of whom was later shot in the head. Also the killing of abortion doctors.

We could use a few arrests or it's just going to get worse.

[RKP5637]

14. It is, until some of these damn religious nuts are reigned in it's going to get

worse and worse in the US. Each year, it's been getting worse and they use the bible and their god to mask their operations, so they get a free pass because they use the god word. And, to boot, they run their operations tax free. How F'ed up is that.

[polichick]

16. They're talking about taxing churches and all their property in Europe...

...we should do the same.

Yes, you're right, it is getting worse.

I think we'll see some crazy stuff when the President is reelected - remember those "good Christians" who strapped on their guns to try to intimidate at public rallies prior to the 2008 election? We could see some of them again.

[MNBrewer]

32. Yes, let's do that, by all means

Side by side. Today's Christian Extremists vs. today's Islamic Extremists.

[NotThisTime]

47. Doesn't matter what weapon they use, they blow up a building, doesn't matter how it was blown up

[orpupilofnature57]

2. Like Guns, Gods don't kill people

enraged fanatics do.

[GeorgeGist]

3. Fomenting hatred is a two-sided operation.

Bite me.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

6. And one side is here in the United States...

We can do something about them. We really can't control what goes on elsewhere.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. Well first of all it seems that the mobs of upset Muslims did not kill anyone.

Instead an organized attack by a terrorist group took out the consulate in Benghazi and killed four Americans there.

So, what was your point again?

[riderinthestorm]

20. That seems disingenuous as the riots are spreading around the world

Here's a chart for you to tag along

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/09/map-muslim-protests-around-world/56865/


Examples such as protesters in Australia demanding the filmmakers' be beheaded seems pretty violent to me, setting fires in embassies in Cairo, Tunisia and elsewhere... I believe JCMach's perspective is that there's an element of Saudi Salafist extremism that's working hard to foment violence.

IIRC, the US has never attacked, colonialized or even exploited the KSA, yet their version of Wahhabi fundamentalism is working hard against the west.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. And exactly how many people have been

Killed by these riots?

Zero.

The attack on the consulate was a well planned terrorist attack. It was not the work of angry Muslim rioters.

[riderinthestorm]

27. JCMach's OP is about the Saudi version of Islam and its infiltration in the general population

You can make this about the single Libyan attack but JCMach's larger point was that there's a problem within Islam, and nobody appears willing to address that.

Since JCMach is a Muslim who is just recently back to the US from spending 10 years or so living and working in a ME Islamic theocracy, I believe he has some perspective.

Furthermore, Australian Muslims calling for the beheading of the filmmakers' appears to be a pretty violent act. So are embassy burnings and other violence. Other people besides Americans have died in these riots you know. There are other actions occurring outside of Libya.....

[MNBrewer]

34. Let's stay on point. Extremism, Fundamentalism, Clerics, Ideology

[nanabugg]

7. Well, the discussion would have to include Christians and Jews also. This shit did not happen

in a vacuum.

[cali]

8. how about the daily drone strikes that kill civilians?

How about 60 years of colonialism? What about invading a country that didn't attack us and killing hundreds of thousands? And deposing democratically elected figures? How about threatening to invade Iran? And our lopsided support of Israel?

The blood is more on our hands than any others.

[orpupilofnature57]

11. Good American ,That's telling it like it is....

An American virtue.

[polichick]

15. Definitely the truth but don't know if truthtelling is an "American virtue" these days.

[orpupilofnature57]

19. Being ' The Good German ' might be taking over.

[cali]

22. well thanks, though I don't think of myself as such really

My pride of place is vested in Vermont.

[orpupilofnature57]

29. I live 45 minutes away , on another

planet, it looks like Vermont but it's become more like NJ . What I meant by my compliment was, I'd rather think of my fellow citizens pointing out our flaws than inciting violence and using the 1st amendment to do it .

[EX500rider]

41. "How about 60 years of colonialism?"

Which Middle Eastern country is a US colony exactly?

[annabanana]

9. Clerics like Pat Robertson? The ideology of Gen Boynkin?

Good question.

[auburngrad82]

18. Exactly. Christians are not innocent of hatred.

Remember, the person responsible for the film is a coptic christian and Terry Jones endorsed it.

[MNBrewer]

35. Pat Robertson is awful, so is Franklin Graham.

Lots of TV preachers are awful. Some people have been killed because of their teachings, rantings, etc. Same holds for muslim clerics. But let's do the side by side comparisons....

[LadyHawkAZ]

10. Because no one ever likes the image presented in the mirror n/t

[Turbineguy]

13. There was something

about Islamic fundies who troll the internet looking for stuff to rile up the masses on PBS News on Thursday. And with that film, they hit pay dirt.

[hlthe2b]

17. We should... However, instead of distinguishing between the radical clerics & their agenda-driven

bastardization of the Koran and Islam to their own ends, it rapidly becomes a full-on denunciation of all things Islam and 2.2 billion Muslims worldwide.

You know, JCMach1, how poorly educated are most in the West about Islam in general, and to what degree propaganda is used (especially by the RW) to enhance those perceptions. And clearly we have our own oppositional nutty RW fundy Xian "clerics" promoting the idea that all of Islam is complicit with the terrorist notions promoted by those most radical Mullahs and street clerics.

Surely you've seen at least a handful of DUers promoting these same notions recently. I expect you may even have a handful of family members who believe all Muslims are radical terrorists, despite your trying to educate them otherwise upon your return to the US. I know I experienced that when I was working and living in the ME.

To have that discussion, one has to have a basic understanding that the extreme factions do not represent all of Islam. But, I agree we should have that discussion.

[Odin2005]

21. Because criticizing back-assward cultures is un-PC.

And I consider rioting and murdering people over a fucking movie to be back-assward. Civilized people do not do that.

[cali]

23. perhaps you might consider that the "film" is merely the spark.

[Odin2005]

24. The rioters have control over their own behavior.

They CHOSE to riot. They are not mindless automata.

[cali]

26. first of all, most of them chose to protest

secondly, you might riot too if you'd been oppressed and manipulated and bombed and invaded for decades.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Shhh

You're making too much sense.

[Agnosticsherbet]

28. Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion are both first amendment rights in this country...

The makers of the film can not be punished by the U.S. Government on Freedom of Speech. The Clerics who spread extremist ideology are equally protected here. Religious voices on the right have suggested that we drop a nuclear bomb on Mecca. How is that different from teaching the U.S. is the great Satan and must be converted by force of destroyed.

Loons are a protected species under the first amendment.

[tama]

30. Why?

I get that your question is rhetorical and not sincere, but repetitive condemning of bad people becomes very boring very quickly as does fear mongering.

So I'll take my shot with the question in topic. We discuss freedom of speech and it's abuse because that is what we do here, the discussion is close to us as discussion community and immediately self-reflecting and as such very meaningful. How about extending the discussion about freedom of expression and abusive expression to discussing Non-Violent Communication? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication)

[riderinthestorm]

31. Evening kick for a post from a DUer, on the "front lines" so to speak nt

[ibegurpard]

33. yeah and what would you suggest we do about them?

[99Forever]

36. "Saudi-supported clerics and mosques that blanket the Muslim world"...

.. are thousands of miles away from our shores. The fucking religious crazies that we really need to worry about are homegrown, "christian" and are a fuck of a lot more of a threat to anyone I know. Let me know when you've solved our own wacko problem and then we'll talk about what happens halfway around the world and fucking pretend we are in a position to do a flippin' thing about it.

[JCMach1]

39. I agree about our own fundies... however...

[99Forever]

43. "However" what?

[JCMach1]

44. basically put my thoughts in #40

[99Forever]

45. I don't see a #40

Strange, very strange. And doesn't help me understand what your position is.

[malokvale77]

46. You hit the nail on the head.

[treestar]

37. You're assuming that

The news goes and cherry picks the most extreme Muslims to quote them and make them appear to be mainstream.

If they did that to Christians, we'd be just as scared of them.

[JCMach1]

40. I agree, but Saudi radicalization of Muslims is a very, very real threat...

It is so easy to see in countries, for example, like Kenya (and many more) where women used to wear their own traditional cultural garb and cover. In so many places, it has been replaced with the black cover of Wahhabism.

We need to remember sometimes as liberals the threat is very real and come-up with our own strategies to counter the issue. Right-now the right-wing hawks are the only ones framing the issue and it is damn negative and moreover damaging.