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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo what IS a fair evaluation system for teachers?
Just wondering, since the Chicago teachers' strike partly involved the evaluation system. So what would teachers consider a fair evaluation system, under which a not-as-good teacher would get a lesser raise than a really good teacher, or possibly eventually terminated? An evaluation by the principal? By the school board? Different kind of testing?
What are the current evaluations based on?
These are things I haven't seen in the articles I've read. Just wondering what TEACHERS think would be fair.
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Scuba
(53,475 posts)... as educating children across America.
What I would hope for is a system that focuses in improvement over punishment.
vinny9698
(1,016 posts)Give them a test on your subject area on your first day and then the last week test them again. There should be progress.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)Leaving aside the teachers' preparation, you're going to subject kids, who might have 7 or 8 classes each day, to a test in each one on the first day? And how would this work for elementary school, where a single teacher handles all of the subjects?
Seems like a great way to make sure NOBODY wants to go to school, ever.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)the question of the goodness of a method depends upon how much learning takes place compared to some standard.
The questions for evaluation quickly turn into knotty problems of what is enough learning and why that should be considered enough.
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)If they go up a grade level, is that good enough if the student started a grade level down? Should we say that all students have to master that subject's grade level by the end of the year no matter where they started or is one year up good enough in a year?
It's far more complicated than tv talking heads ever let on.
CTyankee
(66,001 posts)produce top students?
My understanding is that everybody came together in that effort: the school administrators, the teachers union, and the parents of students. They did make the requirements for teaching degrees much more stringent. Teachers in their schools must have an advanced degree. I'd be interested in knowing more about that.
I did read that 98% of teachers in Finland are in unions, giving rest to the argument that "it's all the fault of the unions." Too bad you never hear about that.
Oh, and Finland DOES have diverse populations so cultural differences in their schools is not something unknown to them. In fact, an article in The Smithsonian Magazine several months ago studied a school that had Asian, Indian and African students. It wasn't 100% nordic people...
There's been no major reformation for a long time, but lot of constant gradual change. Some for better, some for worse.
Teachers in primary schools are not much evaluated bureaucratically from top down. There are professional supervisors who sit in the class and follow the lesson. Evaluation in high schools is much based on feedback from students (student's fill evaluation forms anonymously which teachers collect, look at and then pass the feedback to other officials. The evaluation system is based on constructive criticism so that teachers can learn from experience and do their job better. Not numeric measurements.
Teachers have usually double degree, from their field of interest (humanities, sciences etc.) and from education science. Teachers who specialize in primary schools where they teach all the subjects to a class can have degree from only education science, special degree for class teacher.
I lived many years in most 'multicultural' part of Finland, an eastern suburb of Helsinki. No big problems, except that City wanted to build that part too big too fast and destroy forests we liked and wanted to preserve. Our community fought the city and got also victories of saving a forest from building. It was a tough fight and all means were used including shamanism.
abumbyanyothername
(2,711 posts)Last edited Sat Sep 15, 2012, 08:23 PM - Edit history (1)
that talked about the Finns going for equality over quality -- in other words, they just tried to make sure that every child was being taught in the same way.
And what they ended up with was quality. Even when compared to peers like Norway and Sweden.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/
CTyankee
(66,001 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)we had the big change from 'kansakoulu' and 'oppikoulu' ("people school" and "learning school"
to 'peruskoulu' ("basic school" . The old system was two-tier de facto class system for bourgoise and proletariat tiers. New system was equal for all and free school meals was important part of it.
Since then there has been more gradual development towards more choice, competence levels etc. concerns for individual differences in terms of talents and interests.
I guess this relates to US in the way that Both parties there want to go back to where Finnish system was 40 years ago, public "people schools' and charter 'learning schools'.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)That would make a difference in getting quality teachers. Many here who have teaching degrees or who would have gone into education chose another career because our teachers are not paid very well.
Doctors in public sector are better payed than teachers, but don't know how much. Medical sector has been plagued by the privatization agenda, doctors (who get free education) working more and more in private sector and public healthcare gone more and more to hell.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)is testimony to the Finnish educational system.
It's not perfect, but the use of vocabulary and idiom is strong. 
Telly Savalas
(9,841 posts)Trying to replicate the successes in other places makes a lot of sense.
Link to the Smithsonian article cited:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html
tama
(9,137 posts)Funny and nice way to learn more about our current education system, through foreign eyes. 
Courtesy Flush
(4,558 posts)My wife just retired from the Louisiana school system. Her office mate has since been assigned to evaluate teachers (she's not an administrator. Makes no sense to anyone), in training, she was shown a video of a teacher in a classroom. She said the teacher performed by the book, and she could see no flaws in her work, yet according to the trainer, this teacher should receive a failing grade.
The public school system is being sabotaged, to garner public support for vouchers and privatization. Just as the Postal Service is being sabotaged.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)They think: but don't they have unions??
The answer is: yes. But the union says , "There's nothing we can do."
Least that's what they say in NYC.
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)We get this all the time. Teachers expect the union to solve all of their problems. And all the union can do is enforce the contract. Find a way to write contract language that forces administrators to treat teachers like adults and we'd have a million winnable grievances.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Said no teacher, ever.
Most likely an equally weighted set of:
1) Peer evaulation
2) External peer evaluation
3) Evidence of career and personal development
4) Evidence of service to the school and community
5) Standardized testing
6) Grievance history
used by a committee of teachers to rank order themselves would work. But that requires nuance and experience on the part of the evaluators, doesn't it? Here are the reasons this won't be allowed:
- MBA ("can manage ANY business" school administrators can't understand it
- Soundbite politicians can't explain it in a couple words to tut-tut failures
- Edu-corportations can't push the debate onto a single statistic they themselves game.
Now what ISN'T on that list...
1) Student evaluations -- causes teachers to compromise standards rather than make waves.
2) Parent evaulations -- ditto
3) Heavily weighted standardized tests -- causes teachers to teach to the tests. Easily misused and misinterpreted.
tama
(9,137 posts)Big disagreement there. As I told above, Finnish system is based on those, and if "by the fruits you know the tree", it does not lead to compromising standards but better results. The suggestion is not only empirically falsified but even more importantly, condescending towards students.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Collect the evaluations, absolutely. They can contain some useful feedback. However, the student is not in a place to understand much more than a generic feeling of accomplishment (that can be biased) and emotions about their interpersonal relationship with the instructor (which can be irrelevant).
Some of my best teachers have been strict, unyielding martinets with no warmth in interactions. Where else can one learn rigor in thought and work product? But I'll bet you any amount you care to name that none of them ever got an evaluation as positive as the nice-guy/gal in the same department. I feared them before the class and was glad when I was done with them, but I was better for the effort. I would not have been as generous in my thoughts about them at the time.
So..... Let student evals influence career decisions such as seniority and retention? Not so much.
"The suggestion is not only empirically falsified but even more importantly, condescending towards students."
Hahahaha. You know me not. And, most certainly, citation please! Because if you provide one that demonstrates your statement with hard numbers I will MOST CERTAINLY forward to my administrators. I have every reason to WISH your statement were true and backed up by some kind of hard incontrovertable research.
Over the last ten years, my evaluations have been sooooo glowingly positive that I have had to fight the gossip and perception that I am a suck-up, easy-grading teacher. Only solid performance on common standardized tests has kept me from literally being sanctioned for treating my students as human beings, accomodating their individuality in my instructional technique and being there for them when they need me 24 hours a day.
Student evalutions do not merely point out bad teachers, they also punish people who do too well on them as well. A race to pablum and the mediocre.
tama
(9,137 posts)You mention the heart of the matter in the first sentence, "students are customers" mentality. The customer-disease has been spreading also in Finland ("Customer oriented public service" , but AFAIK schools have been so far largely saved.
The fact that what you are speaking of is all too familiar also to me is all the evidence required to point the origin: neoliberal anti-Earth cancer of turning every natural relation and interaction into financial interaction. It is disease because it is construct and vehicle of alienation: instead of basic human to human interactions which happen naturally we are required to create superficial mental construct of customer-provider(*money) interaction to hide and suffocate our basic humanity from our interactions.
I just talked with fellow DUer about Paulo Freire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire
Pholus
(4,062 posts)You familiar with his education philosophy? I would have been very happy if my teachers had talked about that when I was in school, maybe I would have been bullied and hurt less. Or NVC, generally stuff like that, and practical exercises.
In the school my older son went, they had a policy of "zero tolerance" of violence. Intention is good, but problem is that "zero tolerance" is already violent form of communication and warm sun is much better educator than cold north wind.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)From what I've heard from profs I've spoken to (and a friend who's a prof and a professional mathemetician), student evals are usually distributed in a typical enough way that you can almost predict the general gist of them on the first day, or at least by the time the first set of assignments goes back to the students. The general pattern is automatic enough that of course it isn't really relevant, because it doesn't say much of anything and follows a few standard rules, e.g., students with higher grades tend to give better evaluations, and vice versa.
The school I did my BA at would ask students what grade they anticipated from the course and what grade they thought they should be getting from the course, on top of the other ratings. If those were weirdly at odds - a student anticipating a D who thinks they deserve a B, or vice versa, for example - there might be something in the written part of their eval that might be worth looking at, or the prof might get some questions if half the students in a course have that kind of pattern. If a student's doing really well and slags the instructor, there might be something up there too - not to mention a student who expects they're only going to get a mediocre grade at best but who still sings the instructor's praises.
One of my favorite profs was one of those - absolutely brutal grader whose bell curves peaked around a D or C- and who warned his classes about that ahead of time - but people loved his classes and generally considered them high-grade brain steak even if he'd kick their GPAs' asses a lot. I'd see some pretty competent students feeling very proud about getting a C from him if they were used to Bs elsewhere, or going directly over the moon if they got a high B or anything in the A range. In terms of his students' grade performance he only came across as mediocre, but the school was aware of his students' reactions to the material, and they liked it enough that they'd go to the department on their own initiative about it at times.
I don't know how, or if, that sort of thing can be measured in any real formal way at the college level, and of course it gets even harder at the K-12 level (and more and more so as you deal with younger students who can't express that sort of thing with as much nuance yet). And it definitely shouldn't be one of the primary things evaluations are based on! But I do think there's some benefit to being aware of how the students feel as they come away from a given instructor's work.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Ignore the top 10% and the bottom 10% for the obvious reasons and see what the middle 80% has to say about you.
The problem with including student evals (like standardized testing) is that it is a quantity too easily gamed. Once pay and promotions are tuned in any way to them, you'll find it harder and harder not to do things that raise the numbers.
I'd put my faith in peer observation. If your class has a problem with you, that lack of rapport is readily apparent to the outside observer.
tama
(9,137 posts)The point - and example of Finland - should be that evaluations should have absolutely nothing to do with those. Just give teachers freedom to teach and don't stress and bother them with threats and oppression in any form. Then you start to get real "no child left behind" results.
In Finland the feedback evaluations from students are always anonymous. I would hazard to ques that if at the end of a course you get lots of eager and detailed feedback (instead of the normal random noise of putting cruxes in boxes), that means that you have room for improvement and best to take it as important constructive criticism and discuss it with peers to understand better what went wrong and how you can do better next time.
But most importantly, cherish the rare(?) positive feedback of a student giving a written thanks or praise. We all need that kind of feedback to keep our spirits high and evaluations from students is one way to get that.
femmocrat
(28,394 posts)Last edited Sat Sep 15, 2012, 08:51 PM - Edit history (1)
Please explain....?
Pholus
(4,062 posts)When you bash one of these out in 2-3 minutes you sometimes use non-choice phrases!
femmocrat
(28,394 posts)In unionized districts, that is.
I didn't think that was what you meant. Thanks.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Teachers who work together know each other well and know who is doing well and who is failing the kids.
The principal SHOULD know, but I would not leave a teacher's review to one just one person.
Test results aren't good because teachers have no control over what kids they teach. In the high school level, that would mean the AP teachers would all get good reviews no matter what, and the teachers of remedial lessons would all get bad reviews no matter what. The same general idea goes for elementary students.
ancianita
(40,289 posts)But remember that personnel evaluations are considered confidential and not open to public scrutiny, as are the evaluations of everyone in this system. Talk to Board members -- or any corporation, for that matter -- about why that is.
Variations of this exist in each school due to what the principals deem appropriate for their community and student incoming skills levels and exit skill goals. Here's a broad brush look at the system used in the general high school I taught at for 25 out of my 34 years in the system. I had to accomplish these things, keep documentation of it all and be subjected to four administrative visits and two evaluation conferences each and every year.
1. Attendance -- 95% attendance gets a 'satisfactory' rating or better
2. Lesson plan submission -- 100% gets a 'satisfactory' rating or better
3. Availability of weekly plans for students and parents' constant use
4. Materials relevance and use in lessons -- including the use of technology and other 'auxiliary'materials
5. Classroom management
6. Attendance and grade record keeping
7. Learning climate classroom environment
8. Collegial work
9. Involvement in community/school activities
10. Involvement with students beyond the classroom
Principals, as Instructional Leaders of their schools, are THE legally responsible EVALUATORS, which must be documented and completed by the end of March each year. In most elementary schools that have populations under 800, a principal can evaluate the 50 or so faculty with a high degree of validity and reliability.
But at the high school level, in which populations number from 1200 to 3,000, a faculty of 100 or more -- which is about 40% of the 90 high schools -- the reliable and valid evaluation process can and does get compromised by the demands of the principals' job.
I constantly heard about how hard it was to evaluate 100 teachers by ten or more criteria. Yet, teachers EACH AND EVERY WEEK, AND EIGHT TIMES A YEAR, are expected to deliver valid and reliable evaluations in the form of homework, weekly test, half-point marking period tests and averages, and full marking period percentage-based grades without fail -- FOR THE OFFICIAL CPS STUDENT LOAD OF 180 STUDENTS. Or their evaluations go down, haha.
Now, if a teacher has a five-class, three preparation day, with a homeroom, lunch and preparation or duty period, which one of those times might that teacher provide peer evaluations of other colleagues? Nevermind the ongoing help they give to students who come for it during those periods.
Is anyone out here seeing the logistics problems associated with all this teacher input? Who should be qualified to evaluate a doctor? Other doctors? Non-doctors? Should all doctors get a pay cut or be eliminated from their professional associations because a few who are rated 'bad'?? Is that doctor objectively bad in all settings, or just in certain areas? Is s/he remediable? Is s/he deserving of a process that addresses that remediation?
Someone, anyone, come into a school, understand what degreed professionals accomplish with the demands made that just can be seen, nevermind the intangibles that they provide that no layman is even award of, and TELL ME WHAT MAKES A BAD TEACHER.
My last question is, why should the public NOT know that teachers are already evaluated? They must not have children in schools or schools in their communities, or pay much attention to either if they don't know these things. Yet it boggles my mind as a parent of two that other parents wouldn't even be aware of such things in the course of having been in school or had children there.
Finally, what the hell business is it to the rest of the country, anyway-- of which 70% DO NOT EVEN HAVE COLLEGE DEGREES -- that teachers should have to be the whipping boys of the professional class in America.
I could go on about the ramifications of the OP's question, but I'll just leave my answer as factual as my constitution will let me.
Iris
(16,340 posts)Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)I'm not a teacher, but I'm a parent, and I'm sick and tired of the enormous, complex issues that affect American children being laid squarely at the feet of teachers, simply because some people resent public employees. It's disgusting. It's the result of 30 years of right-wing rhetoric chipping away at our values, and it makes me sick.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)No one ever considers the logistics, do they? *sighs* Pile more on, make our jobs more complicated, and then put us under a microscope to see how well we do--and then they wonder why we lose 50% of the profession in the first 5 years of teaching.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I wouldn't want to be evaluated by my peers and wouldn't want to evaluate them. Sure, they'd have a sense of who is good and who is not, but they ALSO would have axes to grind and asses to kiss and want to see do well, despite being so-so. You give me a good one, I'll give you a good one, would also come into play. As well as someone who is just more visible and sociable. (Note: I'm not a teacher.)
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)Are you asking for an evaluation system based on your assumption that we need to get rid of bad teachers?
If you had phrased your question in a more positive tone, I'd be glad to answer it. But no, I don't think we need to find a way to evaluate any employees in any line of work with the idea that we need a tool to help get rid of them.
My thoughts are that teachers need to be rewarded. They need to be inspired. They need to be thanked for the hard work they do. Paid well. Given the resources they need - on the first day of class (still waiting for that after more than 30 years). In modern, up to date air conditioned facilities with class sizes that allow real teaching and learning to take place. We need to hold the administrators accountable for equipping our schools with the resources and class groupings necessary to ensure good teaching CAN take place.
That's the only kind of evaluation I'm interested in discussing now.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)A good system of evaluation shouldn't just discipline ineffective teachers, it should protect those who are doing well and encourage them and others to continue to do so.
hay rick
(8,628 posts)And did I forget to mention that they are overpaid?
I would start with the expectation that teachers take pride in their work and the presumption that they are doing their job until there is strong reason to think otherwise.
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)I would love to see a system in which we're all set up to succeed, not fail.
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)Even before, in college, I can remember being sent into classrooms with the task of noting various effective instructional techniques. Then we'd come back to class and have the best discussions. Saw some absolutely wonderful teachers. And not a word about fucking data or test scores.
Then when I started teaching, my first principal would come into my classroom and basically do the same thing. She would note what I did WELL, when I was able to connect with the kids as learners. She sat in on parent teacher conferences and praised me for different things I said to parents. All of the advice and mentoring I received was from a positive perspective.
And they THANKED ME!
I don't even remember the last time any administrator thanked me for what I do.
My evaluations now usually begin something like this: "I know you are a seasoned veteran, but they make me find areas where you need to improve. Please don't take this personally, but ..... "
And it goes downhill from there.
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)He actually complimented me on something in the first week of school and was positive about it. I almost fell over.
Teacher will go above and beyond for admins who praise and reward for good work. I've seen it time and time again, but in this climate, admins who do that aren't goal-centered enough or something and so have to go about it in a way that makes no sense. They all talk about the corporate model, and yet corporations that follow that model don't do so well on the market. It doesn't even make business sense.
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)
ibegurpard
(17,039 posts)If you feel that your individual school district's evaluation system is insufficient and you have a particular problem with an individual teacher then take it up with your local school board member.
the continual drumbeat that "we can't get rid of bad teachers" is a myth.
ancianita
(40,289 posts)
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)If you work as an accountant, there is no standardized test to determine whether you get a raise. Your boss looks at your overall performance. Why should teaching be any different?
ibegurpard
(17,039 posts)school districts already have evaluation systems.
this is just a lie being spread to further the cause of busting unions and privatizing education.
How do I get my workplace to get rid of a bad co-worker? what if my company's evaluation system finds that co-worker is just fine but I personally want him gone? I guess I just suck it up.
Parents CAN ask to have their children put in other teacher's classes you know...
ancianita
(40,289 posts)
Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)Whatever works is what should be done.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)ancianita
(40,289 posts)Fixed that for you. 
ancianita
(40,289 posts)No administration wants to restructure based on what we all know because they don't want to afford it. Most at the top would lose their six figure salaries and not get paid any more than the highest paid classroom professional.
There's nothing I've heard from the public that teachers haven't already explored and debated over the last forty years. Honestly.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)abumbyanyothername
(2,711 posts)1) Peer evaluations (based on film randomly selected);
2) Principal evaluations (based on time in classroom and generalized feedback in the system);
3) Student evaluations;
4) Parent evaluations;
5) Test results (measuring delta not absolute);
6) Whole school test and citizenship performance (again measuring delta not absolute -- by citizenship I mean such things as attendance, crime, drop-out rates, vandalism, etc.).
Peer evaluations should be weighted about 40%, principal evaluations 20%, Student and Parent evaluations 10%; Test results 10% and whole school improvement 20%.
Again, this is from someone who has no idea.
abumbyanyothername
(2,711 posts)ibegurpard
(17,039 posts)then contact your local school district and find out what their evaluation system consists of. I can assure you that they have one.
ancianita
(40,289 posts)I have so much more to say about the qualifications of non-professionals to even know what they're evaluating when they do it, but I'll just leave that alone.
abumbyanyothername
(2,711 posts)But I can't even begin to count all the people who want to tell me what is and is not "constitutional."
So I got ya.
Bluefin Tuna
(54 posts)Is simply out of the control of teachers and administrators, and that's the culture of learning - or not learning, rather - in America. This is a watch-TV, play-video-game, eat-junk-food culture - and perhaps has been for decades. The sort of rigorous, determined approach to academics and learning that you see in some other nations in the world simply isn't present here in America.
Teachers can't do much about that.
senseandsensibility
(21,662 posts)This is obviously true, yet few will discuss it. Thank you for pointing it out.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)or require learning and good grades.
I see the parents as a huge part of the breakdown of the education system.
jsmirman
(4,507 posts)in person evals, that only lead to consequences with then further evaluation if it is deemed necessary?
I don't begin to know the answer to this question, and I'm not looking to tick anyone off.
I know that I hate teaching to the test, and do not approve of what either Bush or Obama has done in an attempt to "raise standards."
I'm from New York City, where this is such a hotly debated issue and has been for as long as I've been alive.
From what I can tell in New York City, there is a problem of some of the teachers failing to reach basic competency levels. We have some truly terrible teachers sprinkled throughout the system from what I can tell (this is second hand, but in this case, second hand by having worked outside of the classroom with students attending New York's public schools).
I saw a great documentary when I was down in Tuscaloosa four years ago that focused on successful reforms - their focus was on improving teacher motivation, identifying teachers with a passion for teaching, for actually being there, and phasing out teachers who just didn't want to be in that classroom anymore (or never did).
I think if you get to a basic level of competency, it's not crazy to think that teacher motivation can be the most important determining factor once that hurdle has been cleared. Motivated teachers motivate students, create classrooms that are not drawn out exercises in mental torture, respond to the brightest students, who need to be encouraged to go forward, forward, forward, and even pick up some of the stragglers, who I think respond differently to a teacher that is engaged as opposed to a teacher who has as little interest in being there as they do. I may get some hostile responses claiming there are no teachers like this - but I truly believe that there are teachers like that grinding learning to a halt in classrooms across the country.
Call me crazy, but if you get a teacher who displays both basic competency in subject mastery along with basic competency in classroom communication, and also displays motivation to do the actual job - fuck any test, fuck teaching to some ridiculous set of inflexible guidelines, none of that matters. I damn well believe that actual learning will happen in those classrooms. Positive learning. Teaching that makes kids view the school as something other than the enemy. And I think that teachers will feel freed to do their actual jobs which, again, radical idea, I say involves: teaching above a basic competency level and then actively making an effort to inspire young minds. If every teacher met that goal, I think our education system would be damn well fixed. Oh, and invest in school supplies for the kids and enough textbooks or computer access for the students. Do whatever you can to improve physical plant infrastructure.
If you have to have metal detectors at a school, btw, my instinct is to say, so what. I don't think metal detectors alone make a school into a jail. I believe what happens past those metal detectors is what makes some schools seem like jails.
I may just be talking out of my ass, but these are my thoughts.
ancianita
(40,289 posts)You: "...Call me crazy, but if you get a teacher who displays both basic competency in subject mastery along with basic competency in classroom communication, and also displays motivation to do the actual job - fuck any test, fuck teaching to some ridiculous set of inflexible guidelines, none of that matters. I damn well believe that actual learning will happen in those classrooms. Positive learning. Teaching that makes kids view the school as something other than the enemy. And I think that teachers will feel freed to do their actual jobs which, again, radical idea, I say involves: teaching above a basic competency level and then actively making an effort to inspire young minds. If every teacher met that goal, I think our education system would be damn well fixed. Oh, and invest in school supplies for the kids and enough textbooks or computer access for the students. Do whatever you can to improve physical plant infrastructure..."
Me: Preachin' to the professional choir, sir. All teachers want is to be trusted with their degreed and professionalized experience and autonomy. What the bureaucratic parasites' salaries depend on is the CONTROL of teachers to show the public that they're more worthy of their salaries and positions than teachers -- THUS comes what I call the "treadmill of innovation" circus that drains money from the field and back into the hands of con artists who serve the corporate/government complex.
You get it. Unions have been fighting for professional autonomy of which you speak for the last 100 years. But there's too much tax money to be made by others to let that happen. Schools are big honey pots that these parasites have no intention of letting go of, at least until the public wakes up and forces the proper framing of the issues.
jsmirman
(4,507 posts)it's like, I'm not even offering nothing -
I'm offering basic competency tests on the one hand, which, along with some of the criteria that have been mentioned elsewhere in this thread to pick up the unmotivated and flat out have given up teachers (see Pholus' post), would go a long way, imo, toward washing out inadequate teachers from the ranks.
So I'm not advancing a "protect all teachers, the good, the bad, the indifferent" course of action in what I propose.
I wonder if you've ever seen the documentary I mentioned - argh, I just tried everything I could think of to reconstruct the name of the festival, and so, find the name - it was about predominantly black schools down south and a "motivated teacher" movement - it focused on such a simple theme, but it was one of the most powerful pieces on education that I've ever seen.
I'll figure out what it was called one way or another.
patrice
(47,992 posts)student assessments and evaluations portfolios.
The organizing architecture should be rationally empirical research as self-directed study in relatively small collaborative communities that are interactive parts of larger communities in which each constituent has its own rights and responsibilities.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed.html?id=xfFXFD414ioC
mike_c
(36,523 posts)Frankly, much of what education provides is difficult to quantify. My own experience is an excellent case in point. I NEVER advanced beyond 10th grade-- 8th grade in core subjects like mathematics and English-- and consistently failed nearly every test and homework assignment I was given from the fifth grade on, mostly from apathy. By any objective measure I was a horrible student and my teachers were utterly unsuccessful.
Yet, years later, I walked into a nighttime GED exam with no prior preparation, took the two day exam in one sitting, enrolled in a community college, and ten years later began a career in academic science with a doctorate and a bright shiny assistant professorship.
My point is that the success or failure of education is largely determined by students, not teachers or administrators. Any measure of student success that we use to evaluate teachers must acknowledge the extent to which teachers are powerless to direct the outcome, and must measure their influence in ways that are completely non-intuitive at the time. Education isn't something one delivers-- it is a lifelong process that students choose to engage in, or don't.
senseandsensibility
(21,662 posts)The student is always forgotten in all of this. Your story is very uplifting.
ibegurpard
(17,039 posts)there are MANY factors that determine student success that teachers have absolutely no control over.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)or should I say parents, who guide the student and create a desire for learning, to defeat the apathy. Students, being minors, are not really in control of all they think and do, even though teens think they are. And it starts earlier than that.
If a parent rarely asks a child about school, quizzes the child on how to improve his grades, what subjects he likes, takes at least a cursory look at the books and homework occasionally, and doesn't seem to care about grades except to yell at the kid, that wouldn't instill the desire to learn, or the desire to become anything in particular.
A teenager's brain isn't fully formed yet, I've read, so they can't really be fully responsible for apathy. He wasn't born with apathy. He learned it. IMO.
ibegurpard
(17,039 posts)abumbyanyothername
(2,711 posts)I want teachers (and other social structures) to be there to inspire kids regardless of the parental influence factor.
Now maybe we have to pay teachers a lot more if that's what we expect. But I don't think we should be tossing kids aside because of the sins of the parents who bore them.
ibegurpard
(17,039 posts)we're talking about teacher evaluations here...and this national obsession with teacher evaluations does NOT take into account the fact that many kids are coming from backgrounds and communities where education either isn't valued or CAN'T be supported because families just don't have the means and time to do it.
You want to know what's going to be the best weapon against that? Socio-economic and racial school INTEGRATION!!!
abumbyanyothername
(2,711 posts)I agree that teacher evaluation, to the extent it is done, definitely needs to measure delta -- and try to reward positive change in the class qua class (in other words, measure the PS78 class of 2020 against itself and not against Exeter Academy class of 2020).
And I want to especially reward teachers who are able to reach kids and help them succeed in spite of less than perfect home environments.
But as I said earlier in the thread . . . I am no expert. I have only taught one semester at community college. I acknowledged that I could justly be criticized for having more opinion than information, etc.
I am just saying that as a member of society, a taxpayer as it were, I am willing to pay for teachers who salvage kids who come from environments that don't necessarily support education. Even if they only salvage them a little.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)We all went to school, so have knowledge about the subject. We also knew a lot of other kids who went to school. Plus we all pay for it, so we have an interest in education that way. It's also the future of the country, IMO, so there's a lot at stake.
The fact of the kids not having guidance or interest from their parents in school, yes, a good teacher can make a difference. But they can't ALL be saved, when they have uncaring parents at home. It's too much to expect a teacher to be a cure-all. They are, in the end, hired to teach certain things. They're not hired to be social welfare counselors, therapists, or guidance counselors. No matter how much you pay them, they can't be all those things and work like magic pills. "It takes a village."
Health care is also important. If children don't have good dental and health care, it makes it difficult to present at school and concentrate when they're there.
There are a lot of things involved. The sad state of our public education system is NOT bad teachers, although there is apparently room for improvement there. It's a whole host of things. It starts at home, IMO. Continues at school. Gets developed with good health and dental care. Gets fleshed out with extracurricular activities, like local low key sports and arts. And READING. Do kids even read any more?
Just my opinion. I'm not a teacher, either. But for evaluations, I was just curious what a good evaluation system would be, according to teachers, since it's been in the news, but the articles don't actually discuss the different evaluation systems being considered.
Some of the systems recommended by posters here seem unnecessarily complicated. And some seem to involve "doing lesson plans," which to me sounds more like part of the job duties rather than part of an evaluation system.
ecstatic
(34,729 posts)I can't stand to see teachers say that certain segments of the population can't learn, for whatever reason. Children can sense when you don't believe in them, and I imagine it would be difficult to do a good job teaching when you come to the classroom with that way of thinking.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Parents do a huge amount to direct the students. I was lucky to grow up in a household where literature and science were cool.
A good teacher can similarly inspire students.
But you're right, you can get up there in front of 100 chimps and lecture for a year and at the end of the year not one chimp will be able to tell a hawk from a handsaw.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)The elemental relationship is the parent-teacher-student. If the parent is firing on all cylinders ( and most of them are) , they will be able to distinguish a good teacher from a bad one.
Building administrators are usually inexperienced as teachers and invariably have emotional responses... good or bad... toward the teachers they work with. This makes them poor candidates to conduct fair, objective classroom observations and overall performance evals.
Parents have a vested interest in the final product. Parental satisfaction/idssastisfaction should play the major role in an overall teacher eval.
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)You obviously have never sat in a parent-teacher conference and been yelled at and called all kinds of names because you gave their perfect child a B+. No freakin' way.
The other problem is turnover. Kids grow up, and parents move on with them to the next level. The best administrators I've ever worked with had been there awhile, been broken in and knew how to motivate and balance people's needs. Admin turnover causes all kinds of problems.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)If they're corrupt ( or just clunkers) we want 'em turned over. Sooner the better.
I can see your point though. I'm from SpEd background, exclusively. Our parents don't fuss about a B+ or worry about getting into Harvard. Basically, they want to see their kids as independent as possible before they... i.e. the parent... dies.
We occasionally get an intractably hostile parent but it's usually because their circumstance... including the dysfunctional system set up to "help" them... has made them crazy.
Most of the SPED parents though, want what we want: they want the school to teach their kids what they need to know to survive in the world. They want that. We ( the teachers) want that. It's the admins that get in the way: they want to introduce "reform" dogma into an area to which it is ENTIRELY irrelevant. They want to teach kids algebra even if the kids can't count money or tell time because the common core curriculum says that's what ALL kids should be doing at age 15.
And the admins *evaluate* the teachers on the basis of how well they do THAT , i.e. teach common core and related school "reform" corporate orthodoxies that are totally out of place here. ( They're out of place *everywhere*, but they are mind-bogglingly out of place here.)
I realize the issues are not precisely the same in gen ed as far as teacher evals go. Also , it's been a real long time since I've had a supervisor who could knew how to "motivate and balance people's needs." Early on.... yes. But not in a long time. Now they're just soulless bureaucrats.
Also, i didn't mean to imply that ONE parent should have any kind of veto-power type influence.... even in gen ed. I'm just saying that the dynamic is such that ... correct me if I'm wrong.... in GENERAL terms, parents in gen ed will recognize and wish to see retained effective teachers. No?
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)I've been screamed at over a B+, threatened because I didn't give their princess an A, and I once got to listen to a mother beat the crap out of her daughter for not having a passing grade by the time progress reports got home but who'd brought it up in the meantime.
Yes, there are parents in gen ed who fight for effective teachers and are amazing people who have our backs. The loudest ones, however, are usually helicopter parents who only want the grade because their darlings have to get into the best colleges or whatever. They don't care if their kids don't have the skills or understand the content--heck, I've had parents write their kids' papers and do their work for them! No, seriously, we don't want that.
I'm all for parent advisory teams, all for parents on school boards, all for parents coming into the school to volunteer or just observe in my classroom, but I am not okay with parents with no educational training to evaluate me.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I'm not a teacher, but my sister is. She said that parents were her biggest problem. They're not objective and take offense at silly things, or at things that would help their children.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)All evaluation systems can provide is an incentive to get rid of lower scoring students however possible. For profit schools are already masters at this.
Bad teachers aren't much of a problem, not because they don't exist, but because a child has so many teachers as they go through school that the damage done by a few bad teachers is going to get cancelled out by the good ones.
Absolutely everyone remembers having at least one bad teacher. Everyone remembers having good teachers. Which one had a more lasting impact on you? The good ones, of course.
Courtesy Flush
(4,558 posts)That's the problem. People who have no background in education want to call the shots. Not just on message boards, but in government. If military decisions were made without input from military leaders, then Conservatives would have a fit. But they want to make educational decisions without educators.
One thing I've learned in my life: The person most likely to accuse you of not doing your job is the person who has no idea what your job description is.