I have been doing some research into the question of whether Ambassador Stevens was gay

[dsc]

and while I haven't found anything like a definitive answer I have found a rather interesting line of thought. Nearly all of the reporting that he is gay is coming from right wing websites who are appalled at the thought we sent a gay person as an ambassador to a Muslim nation. So I guess I am left with the following question. Why is it wrong to denounce an anti Muslim movie but apparently a necessity to give in to anti gay bigotry when practiced by Muslims?

I admit to thinking that it is more likely than not that Stevens was gay based on the circumstantial evidence I have seen but I would think he would have been exceptionally discreet while in Libya. The notion that anyone on the Arab street knew he was gay is absurd.

[appleannie1]

1. Most of Libya loved and respected him. The Muslim terrorists that killed him would have killed

anyone that was serving there. The Christian terrorists in this country are simply trying to find a way to denounce the administration.

[Fla Dem]

150. +1000

you speak the truth.

[patrice]

2. K&R

[JI7]

3. i think i read somewhere that wasn't a right wing site with mention of it

i can't remember but i don't think all of it is from right wing sites. the only thing is the right wing starts going crazy over any mention of gay and anything bad that happens is because of "gays".

yeah , nobody there knew he was gay and if they did you wouldn't have had what happened. and you wouldn't have riots all over. did the they riot when western nations started passing gay rights ?

[cr8tvlde]

4. Please don't go there.

[dsc]

7. why not?

Gay history gets burried all the time.

[JI7]

15. why not ? why do people act like saying he was Gay is a bad thing ?

assume even if he wasn't gay , why is treated like it's something bad.

would people say the same about someone they wondered might have some different ethnicity . say someone might ask if this person was part asian, black etc. would people find that offensive ?

[octothorpe]

168. I think it has more to do with "it doesn't matter if he was gay nor not"

Similar to how it shouldn't matter if he was right-handed or left-handed... As for the ethnicity, that shouldn't matter either in this situation. Wouldn't you find it strange if someone said "Soooooo what skin color was the ambassador?"

Although in this case, I don't see much of an issue with this thread because some idiots on the other side are trying to make it an issue. Then again, the better response, in my opinion, probably shouldn't be to disprove or prove his sexuality, but rather point out the stupidity of their accusations that it was somehow detrimental to his service either way.

[cr8tvlde]

23. Would someone go into his background to see if he were straight?

Good lord have mercy...or to see if he were white? Pull in the fangs. Why would anyone care?

Let me say it differently...almost no one cares.

[Major Nikon]

39. I care

Ambassador Stevens was a great human being by pretty much any reasonable metric. If he was gay it would be an important piece of history that shouldn't be buried. So while I could care less what he did in the privacy of his own bedroom, his sexual orientation is part and parcel to who he was, and is just as important as where he went to school, who his friends were, who he admired and respected, and dozens of other facts about him that are relevant to those who want to know more about him.

[Zorra]

112. Outstanding post. nt

[ibegurpard]

127. many of those things were things that he'd have to tell you himself

and he's not here to do it anymore. And if he were here you'd not even be talking about him in the first place UNLESS he came out on his own or he was some right-winger closet-case.
This attempt to poshumously turn him into a gay "hero" is ghoulish.

[CTyankee]

157. I am so torn on this issue. I agree with you but what if Stevens had NOT

wanted to discuss his sexuality in public. Unfortunately, he is not here to let us know that. So he doesn't get to have any choice in being "outed" (and I agree that that term has a loaded definition). That bothers me, even tho I can broadly agree with you that his sexuality was a part of who he was, just as much as other factors in his life.

[Major Nikon]

166. You can play "what if" all day

A good one to kick around is what if you found out someone like Thomas Jefferson was gay? Would you want to know? I think many, if not most people would. There's certainly a lot of historical information regarding whether or not he had an affair with one of his slaves, which also would have been considered private, even during his time.

I haven't even seen anything credible that would indicate he was even gay to begin with. So I don't really see much value in speculating on whatever his wishes may have been. If there is anything credible which comes out regarding his sexual orientation, it won't be up to me to decide if it gets disseminated or not. If it does, I'd like to know.

[CTyankee]

171. It's incredible that the truth on Sally Hemmings didn't come out until when

it did. Even then, as I recall, there were some historians who adamantly refused to face up to it.

As for speculating about Stevens I guess it goes both ways. It was certainly not my first inclination when I read about his death and his previous heroism in helping the Libyan people. I really don't know where the speculation on whether he was gay came from or why it was even mentioned. He sounds like a wonderful guy and what a loss to us...

[robinlynne]

41. +1

[joeybee12]

44. Major fail...far too many people actually care

and many of them care in the wrong way.

[benddem]

176. the repugnicans would have blocked

him from becoming ambassador if he were gay. THey would have found out. Remember the fight over the ambassador to Luxemburg or Belgium? He's the father of two kids. I know that has nothing to do with anything. Wonder why they even thought of this.

[undeterred]

5. Wow... how do you research something like that?

[dsc]

6. google the terms

then work backwards from any articles that I found. Basically you have some facebook and twitter messages from people that knew the ambassador. It is clearly circumstantial. I was frankly looking to see if any gay sites came forward or family members of his.

[undeterred]

8. Why does it matter to you?

[dsc]

11. for the same reason it matters to black people that Obama is black

it is a matter of history. Gay history has often been hidden.

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. +1000

[FreeState]

19. +1 n/t

[FreeState]

21. It always amazes me when minorities are told what they can think

It always amazes me when minorities are told what they can think, feel or value. Attitudes like that come from a place of privilege, not a place of compassion or a willingness to understand (in my opinion).

[cr8tvlde]

24. I believe that if he wanted his sexual orientation "shared", he would have done it himself.

Outing the dead lacks class, grace, and above all gay-rights. Obama is alive. Obama has shared his racial make-up. It's his CHOICE, get it? Not yours.

[Major Nikon]

40. What he wanted to remain hidden in life is not necessarily what he might want hidden in death

People make choices about coming out for a variety of reasons which may no longer be relevant in death, so you can't simply assume he didn't want that revealed after he is gone.

[Confusious]

118. There's these things called "wills"

Where you can tell people what you last wishes were.

Not to mention the fact, it was his right to tell, not anyone's else's, and if he didn't say in life, he can say in his will, and if he doesn't people should respect those wishes.

I guess the right to privacy only applies when it doesn't interfere with your agenda.

[Major Nikon]

121. That's about as weak as your assumption that he had that wish in the first place

[Confusious]

123. I guess you'd say that

If the only thing you cared about was your agenda. No refuting the points I made, just dismissal.

And obviously, it doesn't fit your agenda, so it doesn't exist.

"It doesn't matter what he wanted, it only matters what I want."

Hearing that an awful lot around here.

[Major Nikon]

129. And what, pray tell, do you think my "agenda" is?

All I said was I would care to know and I stated my reasons for it. I guess calling that an "agenda" makes it sound much more dramatic, yes?

Not all points need to be refuted and many sure as hell deserve to be dismissed. The claim that a public figure and statesman has a "right to privacy" on their sexual orientation after they are dead is an excellent example.

[Confusious]

136. Well, you had never heard of him before he died had you?

he had never run for office, this was his first "high profile" job, and it really wasn't even that "high profile" because of the fact stated above.

So your "public figure" is false.

Besides which, the only people saying he's gay are right-wing sites. Good company.

[Major Nikon]

165. I had

Albeit I hadn't heard that much and didn't know that much about him. I now wish I had as I suspect many others do.

A US ambassador to anything is a public figure as are members of congress, cabinet members, heads of agencies, other assorted politicians which includes many other high level political appointees. I don't know all their names either. That doesn't mean they aren't public figures. You may be of the opinion they aren't, but that doesn't make it so.

Also noted is your lack of specifying what my "agenda" is other than your thinly veiled bullshit claim that I'm saying he's gay and I'm in league with the wingnuts. That's some real fucking brilliance right there. Especially since just a few hours ago you were crying about someone else making false accusations with no basis and TOS violations. How rich. Blatant hypocrisy noted.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1354388

Your bullshit is getting a bit too deep, and as you are more annoying than entertaining I don't really feel like giving you any more opportunities to flaunt your assholery today. Feel free to have the last word as such appears to be quite important to you.

Cheers!

[cr8tvlde]

184. Have you any idea how warped this is?

Necromancy...look it up in the dictionary.

[Major Nikon]

196. Give it a rest

For your own sake if nothing else.

Just sayin'

[joeybee12]

45. Wow, thinly veiled bigotry parading as "open-mindedness"

Yeah, it does matter because people like you say it doesn't, simply because you're uncomfortable with it.

[cr8tvlde]

55. No dude, Privacy in any personal matter trumps your "right" to know. Choice matters.

What if he had AIDS? Should we do an autopsy? Inquiring busybodies want to know.

I'm not one whit uncomfortable with someone's sexuality as I'm the LGBT cheerleader in my family...but that just it...it's their choice, not mine or yours. And I'll cheer lead when they come out, and we can chat or cry or rage in private until then. It's called CHOICE and TRUST. Oh, and being a grownup about it.

[joeybee12]

58. Why does this thread upset you so much? The guy is not being

outed in anyway by a curoisity thread here at DU...and your argument is ridiculous...it doesn't matter if he had AIDS, but in this day and age, until there is equality, whether one is gay or not does matter...especially in the situation Ambassador Stevens was in.

Your reaction makes me sincerely doubt you know any gay people at all.

[Confusious]

119. Maybe there are things in our past we don't want other people to know.

And this case brings it out.

It's funny the myopia some people have. There's absolutely no other reason for you to be upset about this other then "you must hate gays."

[joeybee12]

140. And only right-wingers jump to the conclusion about gay people having an "agenda"

You are so ridiculously transparent.

[Confusious]

141. I never said gay people have an agenda

I said this guy does.

Does he speak for all gay people?

[Major Nikon]

209. It's called righteous indignation and it's extremely popular on DU

[JI7]

46. i think he was already out, the way Anderson Cooper was

[joeybee12]

51. Prior to a few days ago you and most of us didn't know who he was...

And yet you assume he was in the closet...you know nothing about him. Maybe he did share it...maybe you're just uncomfortable with any discussion of homosexuality or any sexuality for that matter.

[cr8tvlde]

66. Well you can guess all you want, but to me outing a dead guy isn't a discussion of sex.

any more than digging up a grave is about a shovel and dirt.

BTW, I don't assume he was "in the closet". I have no clue and don't care. This is getting a tad weird. Kind of reminds me of Mitt...oh boy, here's some political points to score on this dead guy...Wee Haw.

I just remember the somber President and Secretary of State and their tribute and that's all I need or want to know.

Good luck in your research.

[HooptieWagon]

82. +1000

[joeybee12]

137. Sexuality is different than sex...

But nice try to justify what this is about.

[Angry Dragon]

98. I long for the day that it does not matter whom someone loves

[Confusious]

120. No kidding nt

[Canuckistanian]

108. +1000

I agree

[Puregonzo1188]

116. Are you gay? Because I am and this doesn't matter to me one bit.

Kudos to you if you are it does, but if not please don't pretend like you speak for me.

[irisblue]

230. it matters.

[TalkingDog]

12. What you said.

Why does it matter. Haters gonna hate.

[onecent]

9. I ACTUALLY know a real life MAN who is not GAY who is an undercover agent

for a highly upscale agency...and he chose NEVER to get involved or married (and he loves women) because he
was afraid of what or how his life could end..and how it could hurt his family.

Hey, this ambassador isn't even in the ground..let's show some respect, cuz I don't care if he is gay or green striped or has two heads.

He deserves our respect...he served....and he was loved.

leave it.

[dsc]

10. so calling him gay is disrespectul

thanks glad to know what you think of gays.

[Angry Dragon]

13. I don't believe you know anything about how onecent thinks of gays or lesbians

[dsc]

14. I know he thinks it is disrespectful to call someone gay

so yeah I think I have a pretty good idea.

[onecent]

26. I MOST DEFINITELY DO NOT disrespect gay people...I disprespect the fact

that this man has not even had his funeral..and It's none of your business what his sexual preferences are...as it is no more your business as to what mine are. I think you are disrespectiful to think it is so goddamn important at this moment in time.

I am a "live and let live kind of person"...always have been..and I CANNOT SEE why there ISN'T MORE PEACE IN THIS FUCKING WORLD. I am also a female...and I happen to have a daughter who is married to a black man ...and guess what....he ROCKS!

I am a person who has an extremely handicapped neice and I have seen the sneers and the looks and the verbal remarks...and my heart bleeds for this young lady (over 30 years old now) and MY HEART STILL BLEEDS. i wish people would start talking about things they CAN CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THINGS THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE in our messed up fucking world!

So NO YOU DON'T HAVE A PRETTY GOOD IDEA ABOUT ME AT ALL BUDDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[abumbyanyothername]

32. Sexual Orientation.

But I kind of agree without calling it disrespectful that if the guy himself was not out, it is not anyone else's place to out him. Even in the name of gay pride.

But since I am not gay, maybe I don't have a full perspective on it.

[dsc]

43. sexual preference gee and you are so respectul

Preference means choice. Yea I had you pegged wrong, give me a break.

[onecent]

53. Peace dsc

I am a 67 year old widow....and I am seeing things in this world now that I can barely begin to believe.

Sexual orientation is not an issue with me. Sex is good and yep, I've had my share...but I truly don't worry or care
what anyone else does with their sex life. Sorry if I got a little hot...

I think the current situation --- let's see...social security...uh...pensions, medicare..gas prices, food prices....childcare safety,
they are all SO BEYOND what I grew up with in the 50's...

Peace stranger....I mean no discord to anyone....I just watch tooo much news....
Penny

[joeybee12]

47. No, he doesn't but you're giving yourself away pretty easily...nt

[joeybee12]

56. Me thinks thou doth protest too much...

It's a curiosity thread, and I doubt what is written here has "outed" Ambassador Stevens in any way...and yeah, it does matter, and apparently you're too advanced to understand that.

[MNBrewer]

57. One must wait until after the funeral to talk about whether he's gay or not?

Did you really say that? Or am I completely misreading what you said?

[Angry Dragon]

99. +2,632

[Honeycombe8]

92. I think you misunderstood onecent's post. It's disrespectful...

to bring up the ISSUE of his orientation or anything of a personal nature about him, when the ISSUE right now is that he was a peaceful ambassador who was murdered, is the meaning. At least that's how i took it.

It's getting to the point that a person can't mention "gay" without being flamed, unless it's strictly a post calling for support for a gay rights issue.

[onecent]

169. Thanks honeycombe8

I don't usually get involved so deeply in these threads...realize
I have to use my words carefully...thanks for your defense....
Nice to know there are people on DU who just need others to talk with
since many have relatives and friends that don't feel the same way we (I) do
about politics...and other issues.
Thanks.

[dsc]

220. yes poor onccent says being gay is a choice and we big bullies that we are get mad

shame on us.

[LadyHawkAZ]

16. I cannot think of one single solitary reason

that it is remotely our goddam business if he was or wasn't. If your research is showing it coming from wingnut rumor sites, chances are it's just a wingnut rumor anyhow. They chose something they think is an insult and are using it to score points. It might be best if you don't help them along. Just sayin'.

[FreeState]

18. I can think of plenty of reasons why it may be important

Growing up a young gay man guess how many gay people I learned about in history class. Guess how many positive gay roll models were in the media? Guess how many positive gay men were shown in the government? They all have the same answer, ZERO.

Yes it matters to the GLBT community.

[LadyHawkAZ]

20. Good grief

No matter what the man was, he obviously preferred to keep his sexuality to himself and it had no bearing on what he did or what happened to him. Is it totally necessary to know who he preferred having sex with in order to care about that?

Other people's sexual identification, unless they choose to share it with the public, are not my business or yours. No matter what, no matter who.

[FreeState]

22. I'm guessing you are not part of the gay community? n/t

[LadyHawkAZ]

25. I am the B in GLBT. Any other questions?

FWIW, schools didn't exactly teach me about bi female role models in government, either, but that doesn't mean I'm going to demand to know what a recent murder victim preferred to do with their vagina before I decide how much I care about their death. Stevens was a human being and now is dead, murdered. That is what matters.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

105. "preferred to do with their vagina"

Um, being gay is not only about sex.

[LadyHawkAZ]

111. Hyperbole to make a point

that point being, the man's orientation was not relevant in any way to what happened to him, nor was it any of our business to speculate on. There seem to be some people in this thread that cared more about his possible orientation than the man himself, and it's pissed me right off. This should not be the deciding factor in how much we care about the death of a human being. Ever.

[joeybee12]

142. I doubt it...

I'm seeing sexuality baltantly confused with sex all throughout this thread.

And no one seems to care more about his orientation than the man himself...ridiculous reaction you're having...

[LadyHawkAZ]

193. Bullshit

I'm seeing people insist that they not only have a RIGHT to that information, they also have the RIGHT to speculate on it with no more evidence than a right-wing rumor and gaydar. Even though his family has directly contradicted the idea and the post that linked to that statement has been sitting in the thread since yesterday evening.

How much caring for his humanity, or that of his family, was there in this post?

If a prominent gay man were to die horribly, and some hetero fired up a thread wondering if he was maybe straight- if people were making these statements to you-
"It's OK to wonder about it. After all, it might be true. Speculation isn't harmful."
"He's dead, so it doesn't matter if he wanted it known or not."
"He never married, so he must not have really been gay."
"We have a right to know! If he really was, it's very important to our culture!"
"Why are you being a bigot? Do you think there's something wrong with being straight?"
"Why are you so offended? There's nothing wrong with it."
"He shouldn't have been forced to hide his heterosexuality."

you can't tell me you wouldn't be up in arms about it, and I'd be right there with you. So would every other person in this thread.

There is no homophobia in this thread, because the disgust in this thread had nothing to do with orientation. There is disgust for politicizing a man's death, muddying it with unfounded speculation about his sexuality and trying to label him something he apparently was not, in this thread. There is disgust for using DU to spread right-wing bigoted rumors and labeling those who reject them as "bigots", in this thread. You do not EVER have the "right" to someone else's privacy. You do not have the right to speculate on the sexuality of other people without evidence, not even if it suits your cause. What a horrific idea.

I normally try not to let teh internets get to me, but this has made me sick to my stomach. Do unto others as you would be done by, for fuck's sake. If it wouldn't be OK to do it to us, don't do it to them. It's not a difficult concept.

[cr8tvlde]

27. Yes and no. I am a proud straight gay rights supporter. My nieces chose when to come out.

Yes, I knew and they knew I knew but they each did it in their own way, in their own time, and if they have never "come out", who the hell cares? Some gay rights group? Fight your own battles and god/goddess be with you. But leave others the hell alone.

What should I have done, sent out a family email for the sake of gay rights?

Leave others alone.

[joeybee12]

52. Maybe the ambassdor was already out...

You know nothing about him...and in the grand scheme of things, it probably will come out regardless of your little hissy fit.

[cr8tvlde]

63. A hissy fit? Red State alert. I do know about him. All he chose for me to know.

And, that's enough.

I do know how tough it is to be gay, any more than you know how tough it is to be a woman...hissy fit aside...because I'm not gay and you're not a woman (pretty sure). I got outed at birth. I didn't have to wait for society or my teachers or my loved ones to "get it".

But I'm pretty sure you know and love some women and I know I love some gay folk, family, friends and former students, so that's what it's about. A beautiful rainbow.

Peace.

[joeybee12]

143. Yeah, being a women is being "outed"

I'm sorry, but your attempt at proving how open-minded you are borders on the hilarious...keep telling yourself how open-minded you are...next thing you'll say is, "I have lots of friends who are black...."

[joeybee12]

49. That's right...none of our business...sexual preference should be hidden...

It should be kept a secret because it's still wrong in so many people's minds. Rethink what you are saying and writing.

[LadyHawkAZ]

68. That's right...totally our business...disclosure should be up to the mob

not the individual. Because who really cares if you were a good man who was killed doing an important job? What REALLY matters is who you were attracted to and why you didn't tell the world about it!

That's what this is being reduced to. That's what I'm saying.

[MNBrewer]

59. Is that because "teh gay" must be shameful and not talked about?

[LadyHawkAZ]

69. No. It's because his sexuality was his business

and he chose to keep it that way. He was a human being- THAT is what matters.

[MNBrewer]

71. Well, now he's dead, so it's not his business anymore.

[LadyHawkAZ]

72. Wow. That's a disgusting thing to say

or even think.

Have a nice day.

[MNBrewer]

78. You know what they say about opinions...

[LadyHawkAZ]

81. Yes, I'm seeing lots of those in this thread

who are much more interested in the guy's dick than his humanity. That takes a sick mind.

[Confusious]

77. Wow

I second that disgusting,

[MNBrewer]

79. And I repeat. YOu know what they say about opinions.

[Confusious]

106. I thought democrats stood for things like the right of privacy

Guess it only matters to you when it doesn't interfere with, or agrees with, your agenda.

[kestrel91316]

28. Unless he was an anti-gay activist or politician or some such,

HIS SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS NOBODY'S BUSINESS.

Shame on you.

[abumbyanyothername]

35. Even then. IMO. nt

[Honeycombe8]

93. Maybe. Maybe not. But it's not the issue right now. He was murdered. That's the issue.

But it's okay to wonder about it, IMO. Just as a curiosity. He was famously murdered. We all know a bit about him and have seen his picture. We've been told a bit about his personality. It's okay to wonder about his other traits. Now is probably not the time to openly wonder about a controversial trait, I suppose, and it would be controversial (I guess) since it may be against the law there. But that's a guess.

[Cleita]

29. I think the extent of the homophobia depends on the country.

My husband worked in French Morocco back in the fifties and being gay among the Arabs was somewhat ignored there at that time unlike in Europe and the US. Since Libya is also Saharan, it may not have the same views as say Saudi Arabia. So maybe if he was gay, it wasn't a big deal to them.

[gollygee]

31. Even if it wasn't OK with them

It seems like it would be unfair to hold him back from a job opportunity because he was gay. Would a Christian be kept from being ambassador in a country that doesn't like Christians?

[Cleita]

34. Your right. One's sexual orientation or sex for that matter

shouldn't prevent them from doing a job they are qualified for, however, that isn't what I was talking about.

[gollygee]

36. I was thinking of right wing sites

Someone said, "Is this something that came from right wing sites" at some point above, and I thought that might have been their angle. My thought was that if right wingers want to complain about Obama having a gay person be an ambassador in an Islamic country, that isn't cool. I guess my thought was inspired by your post rather than directly responding to it. That wasn't clear in my post though. Sorry for that.

[Cleita]

38. I didn't mean to seem snippy either. n.t.

[HooptieWagon]

30. How does it matter?

What difference does it make? He died serving the country, that's all his epitaph needs. Why in the hell would anyone waste their time researching whether he's gay or not? That's just stupid.

[cr8tvlde]

37. Boggles the mind.

[joeybee12]

54. Yeah, in most states gay people can be fired on a whim...

They can't marry either...shall I go on and on...and until such time as we can, then a successful gay man who died in the service of his country DOES matter.

[HooptieWagon]

67. Then you should be active to change laws in those states.

Not wasting your time attempting to "prove" he was gay so you can use him as part of an agenda. He was killed in an attack on Americans, not an attack on gays.

[LadyHawkAZ]

70. +1000

[Comrade Grumpy]

115. If he even was gay. This is a pretty silly discussion.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

33. Does it matter?

[robinlynne]

42. unrec. dsc. wake up.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. FWIW, his brother says he had many girlfriends

Tom says his brother never married but had many girlfriends over the years.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/national_world&id=8807574

[cr8tvlde]

133. I, too had many boyfriends and was unmarried until I was near 40.

doesn't mean a thing...career person...not dovering for being gay, however.

[ibegurpard]

50. why?

are you suggesting that he was murdered because he was gay?
I think that's a stretch.

[HooptieWagon]

62. I think they're looking to make him a gay hero,

regardless whether hes gay, or wanted to be a gay hero. IMO, its pretty sad when a group uses a death to futher an agenda. Thats incredibly selfish.

[dsc]

84. no but if he is a gay hero

we want the world to know he is. It might be what helps some kid through the dark days of high school.

[HooptieWagon]

95. Even if thats not what he would have wanted?

There are plenty of gay heros who fight for the cause. There are plenty of gay martyrs who died because they were gay. There is no evidence Stevens was gay, wanted to be out if he was, or died because he was gay. Attempting to exploit his death in such a manner is extremely selfish and disrespectful.

[ibegurpard]

100. outing him after he's dead doesn't make him a gay hero

he'd be a gay hero if he came out on his own when he was alive.

[HooptieWagon]

161. Exactly.

Using the logic in this thread, Clarence Thomas becomes a civil rights hero after his death.

[JI7]

258. they meant a Hero who is Gay, not a Hero for Gay Rights

[LadyHawkAZ]

104. muriel_volestrangler's post has been sitting there for two hours

with evidence to the contrary, and not a word from any of the "WE have a RIGHT to KNOW about your SEX LIFE!!!" crowd. Crickets.

[joeybee12]

138. Why hasn't this been alerted?

Bigotry always should be.

[Sirveri]

144. How is this post bigoted?

I'm just curious because I don't really see it.

[joeybee12]

145. "Further an agenda" a typical right-wing talking point...

About gays trying to further an agenda...if you don't get it, I don't phucking care anymore about the homophobia here.

[HooptieWagon]

160. What bullshit.

Nobody here on DU is homophobic. Nobody here on DU is opposed to gay heros. The objection is to exploiting Stevens death for a selfish political purpose... one that apparently he didn't identify with. He was killed for being an American, not for being gay.

[ruggerson]

175. The most ridiculous post of the year

N/t

[man4allcats]

60. I'm always amazed at why anyone cares about

who anyone else fucks. What possible difference could it make? Only against a cultural and/or religious background of bigotry could it conceivably have any significance, and if that is the case then I must say what I've always said. Religion is an intellectual and philosophical backwater that should long since have gone the way of the Dark Ages.

[lamzydivy]

61. Apparently, on DU, it's not cool to vilify gays directly but we must respect a religion

that says we are criminals and should be killed. It's a real puzzle. America (which has now 7 states with legal same sex marriage) is the great Satan but those other places that hang or behead gay folks are just fine and dandy.

[ibegurpard]

64. Find me the Koran statement

that says "Americans are criminals and should be killed."
Extremists use religion to justify their vile acts all the time.

[HooptieWagon]

65. He wasn't hung or beheaded,

he died of smoke inhalation in a fire. Its unknown whether the attackers knew he was there or targeted him. So whether he was gay or not doesn't seem to have any bearing on his death. Attempting to claim he was killed for being gay is very disrespectful, and only selfishly serves an agenda.

[moriah]

103. Welcome to DU!

But if you read the Rules, the proper place to bemoan the state of DU is the Meta Forum, not General Discussion.

If you also read the Terms of Service, you'll see that it's against the TOS to make broad-brush attacks against ANY religious, ethnic, or other group, including the LGBT community. And you have spent, from what I have seen of your posts on your very first day here, the majority of your time attacking the people who practice that faith, and attacking it directly. There are other forums on here for religious debates where there is a bit more leeway when making criticisms of religions in general.

Please consider at least exploring DU and see all the forums it has to offer before jumping right in on extremely sensitive topics -- especially given how the Republicans have been politicizing the deaths of four US citizens, your posts come across, at least to this user, as the behavior of those who are only here to disrupt. With the election so close, new users are given special scrutiny by many, and you can pretend to be whoever you want to be online.

As for my personal philosophy -- if I want people to be tolerant of me and my beliefs (I'm Pagan) and not label me with the broad-brush that is often applied to people of my faith because of the immaturity and bad behavior of a few, I feel it is hypocritical to be intolerant of an entire religious group. There are many of the Islamic faith who live here in the US and don't go trying to execute members of the LGBT community. If you want to hate on something, hate on the governments that actually do execute members of the LGBT community -- but hating on an entire religion is called "bigotry".

[former9thward]

73. Your second paragraph contradicts itself.

You say that based on evidence you have seen you think he was gay. Then you say that is is absurd anyone "on the Arab street" would know that. Well guess what, they have the same internet as you do. If you can find this "evidence" as you put it then so could they.

That being said homosexuality is practiced quietly in most Arab nations and I don't think being gay should disqualify a diplomat.

[dsc]

85. without a time machine it would have been unlikely

the evidence is posts made since his death.

[former9thward]

94. This stuff isn't rocket science.

An internet search would find him to be 52 years old and unmarried with no children. Not everyone in that category is gay but the majority are. Someone who becomes ambassador is educated and has social/political skills. A 52 year old who is educated and has social/political skills and is straight is almost always married or has been. So any reasonable person would conclude that he is most likely gay. And that is not considering anything else out there on the net from school or social sites that might add to the evidence.

[muriel_volestrangler]

146. And yet his brother said he had many girlfriends

Your internet search didn't seem to find that, even though it's already in this thread, in a post title. That 'adds to the evidence' that he was straight. In fact, it actually seems to be the only evidence we have, so far, as opposed to conjecture. Perhaps a 'reasonable person' such as yourself makes too many assumptions that other people's lives are just like the people you know.

[former9thward]

170. I didn't do any internet search.

The poster who I replied to did and concluded he was gay. Maybe you should learn how to read a little better.

[muriel_volestrangler]

173. And yet you're the only person who has said he was 52 years old in this thread

so clearly you have looked at information on him. The OP didn't list that detail; if you're going to say "an internet search would find" and give a detail no-one else has mentioned, then it looks like you've been doing an internet search. You have concluded he was probably gay too, and that is my main point. If you're saying you've concluded that from just a detail or too you remember from reports, then your conclusion is even more unwarranted. You are relying on your memory of vague reports of someone you never knew.

[former9thward]

179. You must not listen to news programs or read newspapers.

A strange habit given you post on this site. The fact that he was 52 was reported on every news show and every newspaper article about the attack.

[muriel_volestrangler]

194. You appear to be doding the point about you leaping to conclusions

based on what you remember from media reports - none of which mentioning his sexuality.

[former9thward]

208. You challenged me on his being 52 as if an internet search was required for that.

It wasn't -- but again you must boycott the news if you didn't know that. I originally responded to a poster who had done an internet search and concluded he was gay. Perhaps you should read the thread if you are going to make comments.

[muriel_volestrangler]

210. You also concluded he was gay

and that is what is wrong with your post, not whether you did an internet search or not. You are still dodging that point. Your depersonalised turn of phrase ("an internet search would show...&quot is a red herring.

[former9thward]

212. Again you have a severe reading comp problem.

The poster I was responding to said Arabs could not possibly know he was gay. I pointed out the Arabs using the same criteria as the poster and the using the same internet would conclude he was gay also. Now try again.

[muriel_volestrangler]

218. "So any reasonable person would conclude that he is most likely gay"

That's what you said. You said nothing about Arabs. Are you saying you think you are an unreasonable person?

[former9thward]

219. You clearly have not read the thread.

Or if you have you are deliberately ignoring what was posted in it. Either way you aren't worth the bother.

[LadyHawkAZ]

207. By that standard

Bill Maher is gay.

Gaydar?? Really?? REALLY?? He didn't get married so he must be gay?? REALLY?

How the fuck is this thread still open?

[former9thward]

211. I was responding to a poster who said he (the Ambassador) was gay.

Don't people even read threads anymore before posting crap? He said the Arabs couldn't possibly know he was gay but based on the internet he(the poster I responded to) knew he was gay from his search. My point is the Arabs have internet too. Try again.

[LadyHawkAZ]

213. Not married =/= gay

Not even to Muslims. Only to bigoted Americans.

Time to trash this thread.

[former9thward]

214. When you don't have anything you throw a strawman out there.

No one said what you posted. You are the one trashing this thread but I'm sure that is your purpose here.

[muriel_volestrangler]

221. "A 52 year old who is educated and has social/political skills and is straight...

...is almost always married or has been. So any reasonable person would conclude that he is most likely gay."

Those are your words. That's your conclusion. Why are you denying it now? It's in this thread.

[former9thward]

222. I am denying your phony bs

I never said not married = gay. And you know it. You are playing a little game here. If there was a picture of some man kissing another man you would say "That doesn't mean he's gay, maybe they are just good friends!" And yes please show me a A 52 year old who is educated and has social/political skills and is straight...and has never been married or had any substantial female relationships.

I'm sure you will have hundreds of examples.

[muriel_volestrangler]

223. "substantial female relationships"? Now you're adding new qualifiers

And since his brother has said he had many girlfriends, your attempt to move the goalposts looks desperate.

'If there was a picture of some man kissing another man you would say "That doesn't mean he's gay, maybe they are just good friends!"' is such a fucking strawman I am astounded. I quoted your words back to you. That is not 'playing a little game'. I quote your words to you; you make up things that you think I'd say. You're wrong. You are arguing so badly, you've had to resort to making up imaginary responses to for you to argue with.

[former9thward]

225. The poster I originally replied to said he had no female relationships.

Please learn to read threads to comment intelligently. I have no idea if his brother is telling the truth or not. If Stevens hid his homosexuality in life I'm sure his brother would respect that in death.

[muriel_volestrangler]

226. No, nothing about "no female relationships" in the OP, or in #85

You're making yet more things up. In fact, no-one in the whole thread has talked about him having "no female relationships", or "no female partners", or anything like that. I pointed out the comment that he did have girlfriends by the brother, and that's been it.

[former9thward]

233. In another thread by the same author

In the thread I posit the notion that Ambassador Stevens might be gay and all hell broke loose. I was accused of defaming him with gayness compared to alcoholism and cheating on women. Now in the case Stevens we have an unmarried male who has not been associated with any woman romantically. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021356102. I was reading both.

[muriel_volestrangler]

238. That was posted 16 hours after your post #94 in this thread

which is what this sub-thread has been about. So it seems irrelevant. So dsc missed my reply about the girlfriends to their OP. That just shows they're not paying much attention, even when someone helps them with more information for their research.

[former9thward]

243. You believe the brother.

I'm sure his brother would respect his wishes in death. Maybe you would not.

[muriel_volestrangler]

247. WTF? This is a man who never said he was gay; his brother says he had many girlfriends;

I believe the brother; the OP gives credence to rumours being spread by anti-gay right wingers; and you have the fucking nerve to suggest that I'm the one who may not be respecting his wishes in death?

For fuck's sake, just listen to yourself. I can't see how you can possibly talk of respect without hiding your face in shame.

[former9thward]

250. "Never said he was gay"

News flash! There are many closeted individuals who for whatever reason are not open about being gay. That is especially true at high levels. I can't believe you don't know this so I'm very suspicious of what you are trying to do in your posts.

BTW if you are honest about this there are plenty of pictures of Stevens in Chicago on the internet with friends including on a well known gay blog. I'm not going to link to them because I do respect people's wishes but if I can find them in 5 seconds anyone can.

[Iggo]

228. How about 50 years old?

[former9thward]

234. If you are gay you must be very closeted.

Or do very little socializing.

[Iggo]

241. Oooh, nice cover.

[former9thward]

244. Oooh, nice lack of a response.

[Iggo]

253. Sorry. That should have been obvious.

See, if I claim to be straight (which I do, because I am) then you can just say I'm deeply closeted and voila! I fit your formula that an unmarried middle aged educated man with social skills must be gay. You're still wrong, but your logic bubble remains intact. Again, nice save.

[former9thward]

255. Nothing was obvious in your posts because until this one they didn't total 10 words.

"must be gay" I never said must be gay in any of my posts. Please point to where I did. I said when you combine a number of factors it is likely you are gay. I deal in the world of what reasonable people think given certain facts. I am gay and I was not born yesterday when it comes to this stuff despite many posters pretending to be mindless when it comes to making observations in life. Anyone who is really is gay would be laughing at the naivety, real or otherwise, on display in this thread.

[treestar]

74. Wow this is just evil

There is nothing to say he was gay. Hijacking a man's death to prove a point.

If he was, there is nothing that says the attack had anything to do with that. It was the movie, it was US imperialism.

Every religion has anti-gay bigotry. Denouncing it it par for the course.

Women are treated badly in the middle east too. That doesn't mean we allow for denouncing them and their religion, riling them up to cause more violence, in order to justify more war.

[RebelOne]

75. Who cares? The man is dead. n/t

[cr8tvlde]

76. Red Herring Warning.

[Whovian]

80. Why would it matter?

He was a human.

[99Forever]

83. Shame on you.

You bring this homophobic, rightwing trash to DU?

This thread sucks ass.

[dsc]

89. No I didn't

the fact is he may have been gay, he may not have been gay, but if he was, then yes, a piece of gay history would have occurred.

[99Forever]

97. You keep telling yourself that.

This gentleman gives his life for his Nation and you try to drag his sexuality out for public display.

Disgusting. Vile. Pathetic.

[whistler162]

86. I spent the same time researching whether

President Obama was the son of a space alien.

Just which one of us wasted more time?

Yup we both did.

[Puregonzo1188]

87. Why?

[Buzz Clik]

88. I, too, did some research. I asked myself, "Do you care if Ambassador Stevens was gay?"

Here are the results of my scientific poll:

No: 100%
Yes: 0%

[Jennicut]

90. Can we, being Democrats and liberals, let this man rest in peace?

Who cares if he was or was not. His life should not be used to make a political statement either way. That is kind of sick. The man wanted to be there, bottom line. He loved what he did. He is not around to make statements about anything.

[cr8tvlde]

91. Thanks. Looks like the adults have shown up. :)

[mitchtv]

109. correction

strait adults

[Zorra]

114. I support you 100%, dsc

I think some of the straight folks posting in this thread, who are offended, are missing the point of some of us wanting to know why a piece of LGBT history may have occurred. As we both know, being LGBT is not just who we choose to have sexual relations with, or which gender we identify as.

We were born this way, and it is who we are, and if Ambassador Stevens was born gay, and there is no shame upon this accomplished and very highly respected man if someone posthumously divulges this information about him.

No one should ever feel forced to hide the fact that they are LGBT.

I'm LGBT, I was born this way, and I am who I am, and no one is ever going to force me to hide who I am, and anyone who thinks I'm something less than they are simply because they're straight and I'm LGBT can kiss my ass, and anyone who believes it would be a shame upon the memory of Ambassador Stevens if information showed that he was gay can kiss my ass as well.

[ibegurpard]

117. I'm gay too and I think this is despicable.

And there are plenty of gay heroes out there everywhere who have courageously chosen to lead open lives in the face of bigotry and intolerance. We even have a few famous ones and several in office and running.
Outing is only appropriate for hypocrites. It's a despicable practice.

[Zorra]

124. Can you explain to me why revealing that a person who has died was LGBT

is a despicable practice?

I agree that it is not cool to out folks that are still alive (with the exception of hypocrites) for obvious reasons, but after someone has passed on, what does it matter?

Do you feel that it would be somehow casting shame on their memory? Would it be shaming the rest of their family somehow?

[ibegurpard]

126. um because it's none of our fucking business?

and we don't need to have "heroes" for it to be OK to be gay? and when people aren't even laid to rest yet it's just common decency to not be poking around and speculating about their private lives if it's not something they chose to share in life?

those are a few off the top of my head.
I'm sorry that you feel like it must only be shame...perhaps a few counselling sessions can help you with that...

[Zorra]

131. oooo, I hit a nerve, didn't I? Sorry ~ but there's really no need for you to be so mean and hurtful.

I simply asked you some honest questions.

I can see your point about the common decency thing.

But do you also think that information and all information about public and historical figures that is not apparent during the life of those public or historical figures is off limits? For instance, that historians should never reveal information such as Alexander Hamilton having an affair with Maria Reynolds, who was married to John Reynolds at the time of the affair?

Or is it just the possibility that someone may have been LGBT during their life that should never be a subject for speculation?

[ibegurpard]

132. this guy's not a "historical" figure

his corpse is barely cold...
Maybe he was gay...maybe he wasn't. But his family lost their brother, son, cousin, uncle...and are being subjected to photos of him being dragged dead through the street. How about we save the speculation for a few years m'kay?

[HooptieWagon]

164. Hamilton was a historical figure that died 200 years ago.

Ambassador Stevens was unknown until last tuesday, and he hasn't even been buried yet. Epic fail on the analogy.

[cr8tvlde]

128. Quick question ... how old are you?

Ever heard of privacy for the family, perhaps?

After someone has passed on ... are you acquainted with the concept of Respect for the Dead?

It's not about shame for krissake, None of anyone's business? The shame is busybodies wanting to increase their self esteem by a prurient interest with someone else's sex life...and he's dead.

Heard of Personal Choice? Get your mind out of his sex life/ man parts. Let him rest in peace. It's not about gay, sounding like a whiny one note. It's not like he had a long time to leave a note for his family.

What if he were an alcoholic? Should we discover that? What if he had two girlfriends and neither of them knew? Should we discover that?

[ibegurpard]

130. let's just leave it at it's none of our business shall we?

I don't think equating alcoholism and cheating on your partner with homosexuality is appropriate. And, no, being gay is not just about sex...

[Zorra]

134. Put it this way, I protested against the War in Vietnam.

Your point about family privacy is valid, but I really don't understand how speculating on if someone was LGBT shows any disrespect for the dead, but apparently, you feel that it does.

Being LGBT is nothing at all like being an alcoholic, or cheating on your partner, or even all about sex.

Your comparison of being LGBT with negative things like alcohol addiction or adultery indicates that you believe that there is something inherently wrong with a person being LGBT.

Being LGBT is a condition of birth, and not a nasty character flaw.

FYI:

Homophobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). Definitions refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, irrational fear, and hatred.[1][2][3][4] In a 1998 address, author, activist, and civil rights leader Coretta Scott King stated that "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."[5]
snip--
Homophobia manifests in different forms, and a number of different types have been postulated, among which are internalized homophobia, social homophobia, emotional homophobia, rationalized homophobia, and others.[20] There were also ideas to classify homophobia, racism, and sexism as an intolerant personality disorder.[21]

Homophobia has never been listed as part of a clinical taxonomy of phobias, neither in Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) or International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD); homophobia is usually used in a non-clinical sense.[22]

In 1992, the American Psychiatric Association, recognizing the power of the stigma against homosexuality, issued the following statement, reaffirmed by the Board of Trustees, July 2011: “Whereas homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) calls on all international health organizations, psychiatric organizations, and individual psychiatrists in other countries to urge the repeal in their own countries of legislation that penalizes homosexual acts by consenting adults in private. Further, APA calls on these organizations and individuals to do all that is possible to decrease the stigma related to homosexuality wherever and whenever it may occur.”[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

[joeybee12]

139. You usually find right-wing sites comparing homosexuality to illnesses like alcoholism...

Sad to find such bigotry here.

[Puglover]

148. You just equated the way I was born with alcoholism.

And in doing that you revealed pretty much everything I need to know about how you feel about GLTB folks. Also just a FYI. If you think being GLTB is a "Personal Choice" I have a bridge in Brklyn to sell you.

[Smarmie Doofus]

149. Perhaps these aren't the most helpful comparisons.

>>>What if he were an alcoholic? Should we discover that? What if he had two girlfriends and neither of them knew? Should we discover that?>>>>>

[dsc]

151. yeah you aren't anti gay not at all

it is all about privacy, sure. And being gay equals being a two timer.

[cr8tvlde]

163. Perhaps I should have said...for whatever reason...things we choose to keep private

for our own reasons, should not be "investigated" period. And yes, I'm passionate about this because it's been a lifetime issue in my family and we have a slew of bigots. I know what it's like to try and hide it, the pain, yes pain, of coming out to a bigoted family, and then the attempts to heal.

Perhaps there is a reason Mr. Steven's sister felt the need to discuss the girls he dated and the fact that he wasn't married. Must have been some inquiring minds on both sides of the bigoted fences. Sad she felt she had to state that. There's only ONE REASON she felt she must, in my estimation.

May he Rest In Peace.

[99Forever]

158. Would you ask about the sexual prefernces of a...

... hetero person that died under similar circumstances? Would their personal sexual preferences be relevant to having died in service to their country?

"Outing" people for their private lives, ESPECIALLY in a situation such as this, is fucking despicable and those that do it are amoral fucking jerks.

[Zorra]

167. Being straight is not something that has been institutionally stigmatized in cultures by bigots

for thousands of years.

So what if Ambassador Stevens was gay? So what if the world knows about it?

There is nothing wrong with being LGBT. Nothing.

I think that would be totally awesome if he was gay, although it would be a real shame if bigots, (some who don't even know they are bigots), had made him feel like he had to hide who he was while he was alive. That's what bigots do to so many of us.

They work really hard at bullying us to silence.

And now, if Ambassador Stevens was gay, bigots wish to keep him in that closet, not wishing to stain his memory with the stigma of being gay.

Because

So what if he was gay, and so what if everyone knows about it?

He's certainly not going to get fired from his job because he was gay now.

[99Forever]

172. What gave you any suggestion that I ...

.. do now or EVER have thought that there was something "WRONG" with being LGBT. NOWHERE have I EVER said such a line of pure fucking BULLSHIT and I'm highly offended to be FALSELY accused of it. What the fuck is it with people like you? Can't argue to the actual point, so you just make shit up? What's your fucking problem?

[HooptieWagon]

162. + 1 million!

[Zorra]

125. Sorry mitchtv...I was busy and posted that in the wrong place.

[Kalidurga]

96. What a convoluted post.

Why would you give any credence to what a Right Wing site says? Who says it is wrong to denounce an anti-Muslim movie? And who says it is a necessity to give in to anti gay bigotry practiced by Muslims?

I doubt Stevens was gay, not because I am in denial or think it's bad, but the odds. Most men and women aren't gay so there is about a 2-4% chance he was gay just on the odds. Secondly we don't know that he would have had to hide being gay out of necessity I know Muslims that are tolerant of gays and people that aren't tolerant that have shocked me by their intolerance, so it's a non starter unless we have a good idea of what is generally tolerated in that particular place.

Secondly it is ok to think that the people making the movie is wrong and that it is much worse to kill people over the movie. It seems the movie maker wasn't willing to stand by his convictions and he actually committed fraud when hiring the actors and dubbed over the lines they spoke to put a different take on what they were actually doing. So, the movie maker was wrong on a multitude of levels. However, none of that justifies violence and none of it justifies murder. Even worse none of the people killed had a thing to do with the movie.

Finally, if a person is qualified for a job even as a diplomat if the are gay and they want to go into an area where gays are treated violently that is their prerogative. Would I hesitate to send a gay person into a situation I think is dangerous, you bet. Would I stop them if they wanted to do it anyway? Probably not, I assume they know how to protect themselves and they have a right to do the job if they are qualified. No one has the right to murder them because they are gay period.

[msanthrope]

101. Please delete this OP--the right wing blogs are printing absolutely false and inflamatory

shit and you are giving them a platform for it.

The ONLY reason these horrible people want to talk about him possibly being gay is because they want to bash the Obama administration, AND they want to foment some extremely disgusting rumors regarding his death.

Don't give them that.

[DrewFlorida]

102. Why does it matter whether he was gay or not? I don't get it!

I would think you research would be used to investigate whether or not Marcus Bachmann is gay, after all it would show that he is not only gay, but a complete hypocrite.

[Nye Bevan]

107. Creepy.

He was a good guy who was murdered. Whether he was gay has the same relevance as whether he was left-handed or whether he preferred tea to coffee.

I suggest that you terminate your investigation.

[mitchtv]

110. wow, you sure opened a can of worms

that's what you get hanging around GD
lots of "outrage" around here

[ladjf]

113. Why?

[JoeyT]

122. I won't say I don't care,

but I'm extremely uncomfortable with the idea of outing someone when it might have been against their wishes.

[Incitatus]

135. What is this circumstantial evidence that makes you think the RWers might be right?

[kestrel91316]

229. Probably that he was single. I'm a single woman and people assume I'm lesbian all the time.

I'm not. They just can't seem to wrap their sad, patriarchy-worshipping brains around the fact that a woman might simply not be married because she hasn't met the right man.

I could ask my friend to ask her dad, who knew Chris Stevens well, if he was gay. But I won't. It's completely irrelevant.

[dipsydoodle]

147. If he was gay that's incidental and hardly likely to the reason he was targetted

the most likely reason being quite simply that he represented US policy in the Northern Africa / Middel East.

[Walk away]

153. I can't believe I woke up to this. The poor man was just murdered.

This is so selfish and invasive.

[leveymg]

154. The same was said about T.E. Lawrence.

Recall the scene in Lawrence of Arabia where upon reaching Damascus, he meets with the the British Commanding General. Together they review the record file containing an amazing list of Lawrence's areas of knowledge in preparation for his promotion. Then, reciting the file aloud, the General comes across the entry, "Unclean personal habits". The General pauses, looks up, and says, "You are an interesting man, Mr. Lawrence."

[goclark]

155. I have a question ~ is it the custom to state in an obituary

that the person was Gay?


I have never recalled seeing one and I have attended several Memoririals for friends that were Gay.

I recall it written something like this....he/she leaves to cherish his/her memory --mother,father, brother, sisters, unts, uncles and treasured friends Johnny, Susie etc.

[ruggerson]

181. If the obituary reads "survived by longtime partner"

Or "wife" of the same gender, then it is pretty clear.

It is important to accurately and fully describe people in the context of their time in history.

Was Barbara Jordan out while she was alive? Nope. Is it important now, in understanding the totality of who she was, to know that she was lesbian? Yep.

[Iggo]

156. Was he out?

[muriel_volestrangler]

174. No.

No mention of a partner of either sex; his brother said he had several girlfriends. It seems to me that, even if he was gay or bisexual, this would be a posthumous outing that the family will be annoyed by.

[Smarmie Doofus]

159. I wondered about this myself. Thanks for opening it up. ( i.e. the question.)

The following observations:

1. No disrespect at all to the gentleman is implied by asking the question.

2. The question matters to lgbt people ( as you note, somewhere in the thread) in much the same way that Mr. Obama's ethnicity matters to African Americans.

3. It should matter to non-lgbts as well. They are delivered an dishonest and debilitating ( even if they don't realize it) message when they are served-up history that is "sanitized ( i.e. scrubbed-free of lgbts and lgbt-ism.) for their protection". ( Sanitized "history" obscures the fact that lgbts and lgbt-ism are a natural phenomenon, occurring naturally in all known human populations. This would be helpful to know. I think we can all agree on this. No?)

4. We don't know... for a fact... that Mr. Stevens was NOT out before his murder. Many lgbts are "out" partially... or selectively. Perhaps a little research can establish this.

5. It may be that Mr. Stevens was straight. And that is fine also.

Kick and recommend.

[ruggerson]

177. By the looks of this thread, some folks seem to have a lot invested

In keeping gay history securely in the closet.

[ibegurpard]

180. Oh please

We have courageous openly gay people making gay history right now...including Tammy Baldwin who is running for senate in Wisconsin. If this man was gay all it makes him was a closet-case. But since he's now dead that would make him a gay hero?
Talk about doubling down...

[ruggerson]

183. I don't believe I mentioned the phrase "gay hero"

Nor does it have anything to do with my point.

I am interested in recording history accurately and without bias or a double standard.

[Walk away]

203. How about waiting until the poor man's body is cold. nt

[ruggerson]

205. I doubt if we were inquiring if the guy had a wife that anyone would care

The double standard is quite glaring.

[Walk away]

242. I would care if he didn't want to publicly acknowledge his marriage and then died in the public eye.

I think it's a complete invasion of a part of this man's life that he obviously considered private. But his wishes obviously don't matter to you. I don't think you have to be gay to empathize with this man. It was one aspect of his life he chose not to share but you think is just fine to discuss in public.

I guess you win because you outlived him.

[RebelOne]

178. Who cares? Who cares? I certainly don't.

As long as he does his job well, what difference does it make?

[cindyperry2010]

185. amen

one has nothing to do with the other and i frankly do not care what he did or not behind closed doors was he good at what he did is the only thing that mattered

[Plantaganet]

182. Nice to see all this talk of the gay "agenda" on a Democratic website.

Just because we want to know if a fallen hero was part of our family?

Great allies - the lot of you. With friends like this...

[ibegurpard]

186. our "family?"

being gay doesn't make us family.
I have a family...and I have no wish to include, for instance, the Log Cabin Republicans in that family.

[Iggo]

187. "Friends like this"

You mean friends who would respect the privacy of someone who might not want to be out? Even posthumously?

[renie408]

189. And the thing is...

I think DSC was trying to figure this out because REPUBLICANS are claiming Stevens was gay as if it were a bad thing or it should have exempted him from service in Libya.

And they got royally flamed for that. But that's because here at the DU everybody is really tolerant and accepting of the free speech of others, godammit!!

[Plantaganet]

191. Mending fences, indeed. n/t

[HooptieWagon]

232. If he wanted to be in the "family", he would have said so.

Otherwise, its none of our business. There are plenty of gay heros, you don't have to manufacture one.

[DevonRex]

188. He was extremely good at his chosen field so

yes, he would have been most discreet no matter where he was stationed. It seems to me that he really loved his work and sacrificed a lot for it. It comes as no surprise that he had lots of girlfriends. I'm sure he attended many official functions with a date on his arm.

Research to your heart's content. I hope that one day you know for sure.

[cr8tvlde]

190. What we know is that he was "out" ... straight.

Beyond that is prurient excess and unbecoming to this board.

[Plantaganet]

192. Homophobia is also unbecoming. n/t

[patrice]

197. ? Confused here. I thought "out" means, self-identified to others as gay. What don't

I understand here?

[patrice]

195. Pardon!! me, but my little ir-repressible conspiracy theorist is kicking in.

SO many different and UNKNOWN actors in this milieu!

It is so fundamentally threatening that there may have been a security breech in Libya. I wonder if Ambassador Stevens wasn't specifically targeted, a warning to Log Cabin Republicans????

Xe inhabits that part of the world you know, the same "security" culture that got our troops in so much trouble at Abu Ghraib and free-lance money abounds from all of these SECRET SuperPACs and some that we might speculate are actually Super-SuperPACs. Don't forget that there is lots of FOREIGN money involved in what is happening.

Sorry, if this seems too far-fetched, but it's possible to believe practically anything ever since the stolen election of 2000 and subsequent 9/11.

[DevonRex]

199. Good lord no.

Just no. We already have this one figured out.

[patrice]

200. Okay, I'm not up on this. Have seen nothing more about the possible security breech. Link?

Please.

[ruggerson]

198. As Melissa Harris Perry would say:

"Interracial friendship should, ideally, encourage the desire to investigate one’s own racial privilege and bias, not to use the identity of one’s friends against any claim that such bias even exists. As an ally in LGBT struggles I have learned this lesson repeatedly. As an ally my role is to speak up for LGBT issues when in heteronormative environments and to shut up when being spoken to by gay and transgendered persons."

[DevonRex]

201. +1.

I spoke up in support of the OP and gave it a rec after I saw the reception it was getting.

[ruggerson]

202. Thanks DR

You have long been a thoughtful and committed ally in every sense of the word.

[Puglover]

204. Yep.

All DSC basically wondered was if this guy just might have a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend. Had he asked if there was a girlfriend I wonder if the screams of outrage would have been so loud.

[Plantaganet]

206. No way. That's normal. Not like being an alcoholic or suchlike. n/t

[Raven]

215. Who the hell cares? Move on, folks,

nothing to see here...absolutely nothing.

[MatthewStLouis]

216. I was saddened by the death of a former Peace Corps volunteer and from what I know

a damn smart guy. He could speak French and Arabic. Such a tragic loss for his family and our country. Who the hell cares if he was gay or not?

Yes, the Arab fundamentalists are every bit as bigoted as our Christian fundies. I think we have to give them time to understand that real freedom requires tolerance and open minds. It also requires us to accept the fact that other people might have viewpoints we don't like.

[avebury]

217. I fail to see why anybody would become obsessed with trying

to determine Ambassador Steven's sexual orientation because that has nothing to do with the way he represented this country and the work he did to help the Libyans. He died in the line of duty and he should be allowed to rest in peace. His family has enough to cope with without having to deal with people who want to stir up a scandal.

[Smarmie Doofus]

245. Who says he's "obsessed" and what "scandal" would he want to stir up? n/t

[avebury]

249. All of a sudden, since the Ambassadors death, disussion threads on DU and other websites, seem

to be cropping up regarding his sexuality. Everything I have read about the Ambassador indicates that he was well loved and well thought of by his co-workers at the State Dept. and the people of Libya, a hard worker, and a great representative of the United States overseas. Look at the original post: "I have been doing some research into the question of whether Ambassador Stevens was gay..."

Who cares what a person's sexual orientation is, even the original poster could not definitively decide the answer to the question. This is a topic that can just get the Republicans and Tea Partiers frothing at the mouth and we all know that they aren't too interested in the facts. Just google Ambassador Stevens gay and see the type of stories that come up.

I guess that I expect higher standards from liberals to not get pulled into stories like this.

[Smarmie Doofus]

251. This thread's getting pulled all over the place. OP did not, and would never question the following:

>>Everything I have read about the Ambassador indicates that he was well loved and well thought of by his co-workers at the State Dept. and the people of Libya, a hard worker, and a great representative of the United States overseas. >>>

Point: these qualities are in no way inconsistent with his being gay. ( IF that's what he was. ) You are implying that they ARE.

You are not alone. A lot the posters in the thread that object to the OP are operating from the same fallacious assumption. But that doesn't make it any less wrong.

He could have been all of those great things you just described and....hold on to your hat, now....... HAVE BEEN GAY AT THE SAME TIME !

>>>Who cares what a person's sexual orientation is,>>>.

Everyone. Everyone cares. Gay people care... and believe me.... after many decades of contending ( often with a lot of emotional difficulty) w. straight peoples' opinions of how I should live my life, I can assure you that STRAIGHT PEOPLE CARE ALSO. ( Look at the size and scope of this thread, ferchrssakes.) We ALL care.

>>This is a topic that can just get the Republicans and Tea Partiers frothing at the mouth and we all know that they aren't too interested in the facts. Just google Ambassador Stevens gay and see the type of stories that come up. >>>

This is a tactical question that has to be considered separately. I'm not sure I want to be party to a consensus that's going to be forced on us as DEMS by the ravings of the wingnut wing of the wingnut party.

[L0oniX]

224. Ask me if I give a fuck!

[renie408]

227. You don't give a fuck that right wingers are trying to say that Stevens should not

have been posted in the Middle East because of his possible sexual orientation and that his supposed homosexuality was partially to blame for his death??

Cause see, that shit pisses ME off. A lot more than a solid DU member's awkwardly worded title on their thread.

[HooptieWagon]

231. Who cares what RWers post?

They post all kinds of stupid shit.

[Nye Bevan]

235. +1. Most of the time we ignore those assholes.

How come all of a sudden, some DUers not only think their allegations are credible, but need to launch their own investigations?

[HooptieWagon]

237. Exploitation of the dead.

Theres 4000 dead servicepeeps in the ME, 2000 dead on 9-11... I don't see them investigating who was gay or not. Pure selfishness.

[L0oniX]

239. +1 ...repuke concern troll?

[HooptieWagon]

240. Don't think so.

Apparently OP wants to position Stevens as a gay hero. Except there's no evidence he was gay, was killed for being gay, or even spoke out on gay issues whether gay or straight. Epic fail. There are many real gay heros, no need to create fake ones.

[L0oniX]

236. Sorry. I am only accepting responses that ask me if I give a fuck at this time.

[Smarmie Doofus]

246. Do you give a fuck?

[L0oniX]

257. No!

[scheming daemons]

248. a) it doesnt matter if he is gay and b) this thread sucks ass

..and is being used by rw sites.

If you had any decency, you'd delete the thread.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

252. He is dead.

Why would anyone care?

[Warpy]

254. Why on earth would you bother?

The man had a long and fruitful career in the Middle East, where he was respected by most of the people he came into contact with and well loved by many.

His death was a tragedy.

Why not celebrate his life's work rather than examining the corpse to see if it's worthy of interment with honors?

Picking over the remains to see whether or not his sex life was an "approved" one is disgraceful.

[CJCRANE]

256. Ambassador Stevens served in Jerusalem, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt and Libya.

He taught English in Morocco and he spoke English, Arabic, and French.

He served his country admirably and died in the line of duty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Stevens_%28diplomat%29

[Behind the Aegis]

259. Many of the replies in this thread are fucking disgusting.

Only a few responses really surprised me, and made me reconsider them as allies. The rest? Pretty much the usual suspects, minus a few.

[JI7]

260. The Right Wingers are against Gays regardless of what Muslims think

remember that one gay guy Bill Clinton tried to appoint as ambassador to some small nation in europe ? how they tried to block that ?

[Behind the Aegis]

261. James Hormel. Luxembourg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hormel#Ambassadorship