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crickets

(25,952 posts)
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 06:58 PM Jun 2020

CNN: "Are we now living in a military state?" Discussion/ thoughts on Insurrection Act

Well, he did it. trump invoked the Insurrection Act, and is promising this will be extended nationwide. Watching CNN right now, Don Lemon is asking, "is the president declaring war on the American people?"

Thoughts?


Background reading:

The following Atlantic article discusses the legal and Constitutional issues regarding invoking the Insurrection Act. The discussion is in relation to immigration, but the concepts still apply, particularly in exploration of how the Act, and its use, has changed over time. It's worth it to read the entire article.

Yes, Trump Can Invoke the Insurrection Act to Deport Immigrants
Congress has delegated too much power to presidents.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/can-trump-use-insurrection-act-stop-immigration/589690/

In other words, if the president determines that ordinary law enforcement is inadequate to enforce federal law, he can deploy the military to assist. And although Congress in the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 generally prohibited use of the federal military for domestic law enforcement, the Insurrection Act was always understood as the principal exception to that general rule.

As documented in a comprehensive three-volume history by the U.S. Army’s Center for Military History, the Insurrection Act has therefore been used repeatedly throughout American history to help quell civil unrest—especially before the rise of well-trained (and increasingly well-equipped) modern local police forces. In virtually every case, the act was used in circumstances in which there was no serious dispute that local authorities were inadequate to the task at hand, and where domestic deployment of federal troops was seen as a means of restoring civil and civilian order, not subverting it.

Read: The alarming scope of the president’s emergency powers

But alongside the increasing capabilities of local law enforcement to handle domestic disorder has come increasing political opposition to domestic use of the military for the same purposes—as not only unnecessary, but also perhaps even coercive. It was politics more than any legal concerns that led President George W. Bush to decline to invoke the act to help restore order in Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina. Politics is also a big part of why we’re now in the longest period in American history without a domestic deployment of U.S. troops under the Insurrection Act; it’s been 27 years since President George H. W. Bush sent federal troops to Los Angeles to help restore order after the Rodney King riots. It’s not just that local authorities today can handle most law-enforcement crises; it’s that calling in federal troops (as opposed to the state National Guard) had, at least until now, come to be seen as crossing a constitutional Rubicon—a measure that should be saved for truly existential crises when there is no dispute over the need for federal military intervention.

Lawsuits will certainly challenge Trump’s invocation of the Insurrection Act to assist in immigration enforcement—a purpose for which it’s never previously been used. But the text of the statute would seem to be on the president’s side—underscoring just how broad the power is that Congress has delegated to the president, and just how much we have historically relied on political checks, rather than legal constraints, to circumscribe the president’s authority. As partisan tribalism has increasingly come to mark virtually every policy debate in Washington, those political checks have proved increasingly ineffective.



The following is a paper that explains and examines the role of PCA and Insurrection Act in preparation for proposing a PCA Court to provide judicial certification of any use of the IA. Interesting idea, but the main reason for posting this is in the usefulness of the initial examination of the two Acts. I admit I've only given it a partial skim so far.

Katrina, Federalism, and Military Law Enforcement: A New Exception to the Posse Comitatus Act
Sean McGrane, University of Michigan Law School
https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1273&context=mlr

Despite serving opposite sides of the federalism coin, the PCA and the Insurrection Act have coexisted in relative harmony for more than a century. The Insurrection Act carves out a narrow exception to the PCA, invoked only where an insurrection has arisen within a state, and where the local and state law enforcement agents are incapable of quelling the insurrection. The Insurrection Act authorizes the president to deploy troops for domestic law enforcement either when the state government requests such assistance or when the president makes an independent determination that the military is required to enforce federal law. In the latter instance, the president may deploy troops regardless of whether the state desires such assistance; indeed, he may deploy troops even when the state government expressly opposes such a move. In this instance, the federalism concerns are highest. But since the Civil War, the Insurrection Act has been invoked almost exclusively upon request by state governments. In the post-Civil War era, the president has deployed troops absent a state government's request for only one purpose-to integrate southern schools in the 1950s and 1960s.'4 Because the Insurrection Act remains a narrow exception to the PCA, and because the Act is rarely invoked without a state government's request, the limits of the Insurrection Act and the PCA have gone mostly untested for more than a century.


Edit to add:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act
31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
CNN: "Are we now living in a military state?" Discussion/ thoughts on Insurrection Act (Original Post) crickets Jun 2020 OP
This country is in danger chia Jun 2020 #1
It looks as though citizens are in danger from their own government at this point. nt crickets Jun 2020 #4
Yes. chia Jun 2020 #5
as black folks have been all this time AlexSFCA Jun 2020 #15
+1000000 crickets Jun 2020 #17
Agreed 100% chia Jun 2020 #28
No rockfordfile Jun 2020 #21
it's like when someone you know... stillcool Jun 2020 #2
Trump has about a week to make it happen. Freethinker65 Jun 2020 #3
Thanks for posting this---I was about to research this because I thought PCA was the law. mtngirl47 Jun 2020 #6
You're welcome, and I would love any links and comments crickets Jun 2020 #9
If trump was hoping the press would fall in line with him, he was sorely mistaken. crickets Jun 2020 #7
Yes. The governor has to request it. SoonerPride Jun 2020 #11
TY! nt crickets Jun 2020 #14
They are wrong sarisataka Jun 2020 #26
Oh boy, there are things I want to say that I just can't mvd Jun 2020 #8
That is not necessarily the case. 9/11 should have taught us the potential still_one Jun 2020 #13
I sense that people may not be so passive mvd Jun 2020 #16
Then we better start getting people registered to vote, and make sure they get still_one Jun 2020 #18
Yes, but I am worried about the election mvd Jun 2020 #22
+++ still_one Jun 2020 #25
He cannot send the military into states malaise Jun 2020 #10
Yes he can sarisataka Jun 2020 #27
What did people think would happen with the looting and vandalism going on in still_one Jun 2020 #12
once he starts using the military... Locrian Jun 2020 #19
Looks like we are going to have to go and drag this motherfucker out of his foxhole after all. sunonmars Jun 2020 #20
Question: What, if anything, can Congress do? crickets Jun 2020 #23
If the violence keeps up, and the press continues to hype it up with images of breaking Steelrolled Jun 2020 #24
CNN Pentagon Correspondent: "This is a political act, not an act to guard national security." crickets Jun 2020 #29
Notes - Cooper speaking to Whitmer crickets Jun 2020 #30
**Per Jeffrey Toobin** crickets Jun 2020 #31

stillcool

(32,626 posts)
2. it's like when someone you know...
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:05 PM
Jun 2020

is dying...any day. And then they die, and it hits you like a ton of bricks.

Freethinker65

(10,001 posts)
3. Trump has about a week to make it happen.
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:05 PM
Jun 2020

Trump needs continued rioting, looting, and arson to take complete control

mtngirl47

(987 posts)
6. Thanks for posting this---I was about to research this because I thought PCA was the law.
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:09 PM
Jun 2020

In any case---I agree with Don Lemon---we have just become a dictatorship---just as we all predicted.

crickets

(25,952 posts)
9. You're welcome, and I would love any links and comments
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:12 PM
Jun 2020

that DUers can add to help make sense of what is going on right now.

crickets

(25,952 posts)
7. If trump was hoping the press would fall in line with him, he was sorely mistaken.
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:11 PM
Jun 2020

CNN is calling this the photo op that it is, and are saying that Posse Comitatus still supersedes the Insurrection Act since he did not receive a request for it from any governor. Are they correct?

sarisataka

(18,497 posts)
26. They are wrong
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:39 PM
Jun 2020

Think about it logically.

Say a state collapsed into insurrection , the governor is dead, legislature cannot meet, no one is in control to give their NG orders or ask for help. The President has active military available to restore order.

But he cannot use the military because of posse comitatus. He has to wait for the state to ask for help...


The Insurrection Act allows the President to intervene on his own authority.

mvd

(65,161 posts)
8. Oh boy, there are things I want to say that I just can't
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:11 PM
Jun 2020

So just FUCK TRUMP! The people will not allow this to be a dictatorship!

still_one

(92,061 posts)
13. That is not necessarily the case. 9/11 should have taught us the potential
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:22 PM
Jun 2020

for the government to "scare" people enough that draconian measures will happen.

The stakes are even higher this time around.

still_one

(92,061 posts)
18. Then we better start getting people registered to vote, and make sure they get
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:29 PM
Jun 2020

out and vote, because I really believe if trump wins a second term, the country is over


mvd

(65,161 posts)
22. Yes, but I am worried about the election
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:32 PM
Jun 2020

We have to be very vigilant. Trump is no ordinary occupant of the WH.

still_one

(92,061 posts)
12. What did people think would happen with the looting and vandalism going on in
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:15 PM
Jun 2020

every large metropolitan city.

The looting and vandalism was over-taking the protesters' message, and the "plantation" society, and unfair justice occurring specially to African Americans where the focus is being shifted away from Civil Rights to the chaos occurring.

We better get people registered and out to vote, especially in those critical swing states, because that is what will determine the future of the country for decades to come.

Those who argued in the 2016 general election that there was no difference between republicans and Democrats have lost that argument based on what has happened in the last three and a half years.

The survival of our country depends on what happens in November

I don't want to hear the divisive garbage coming out of the David Sirotas and Glenn Greenwalds. Our survival depends on winning the election







sunonmars

(8,656 posts)
20. Looks like we are going to have to go and drag this motherfucker out of his foxhole after all.
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:31 PM
Jun 2020

Worked for getting rid of Saddam.

 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
24. If the violence keeps up, and the press continues to hype it up with images of breaking
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 07:35 PM
Jun 2020

glass and fire (which we know they will) then this could help him. It would be the highest irony for the rioters to help Trump.

crickets

(25,952 posts)
29. CNN Pentagon Correspondent: "This is a political act, not an act to guard national security."
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 08:30 PM
Jun 2020

She begins discussing that trump has to have approval and support of local governors, mayors and local police, but unfortunately is interrupted before she can finish her point.

Then Cooper speaks to Whitmer, who is saying that trump does need governors' approval and that she does not see many states granting that. (This is appears to be debatable, and a sticking point.) She then points out that rather than declaring civil war on one another, she wants to deal with COVID and the economic problems her constituency faces, and that that would be far more constructive path to healing. She does not want to have the feds come to her state because she feels it would be throwing gas on the fire and needlessly militarizing the situation.

Anderson Cooper's prior guest (missed the name, sorry) makes the point that the reason for trumps PHOTO OP is because he was upset about being made fun of for being in the bunker last night.

crickets

(25,952 posts)
30. Notes - Cooper speaking to Whitmer
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 08:32 PM
Jun 2020

Whitmer is saying that trump does need governors' approval and that she does not see many states granting that. (This is appears to be debatable, and a sticking point.) She then points out that rather than declaring civil war on one another, she wants to deal with COVID and the economic problems her constituency faces, and that that would be far more constructive path to healing. She does not want to have the feds come to her state because she feels it would be throwing gas on the fire and needlessly militarizing the situation.

Whitmer calls the morning phone call as well as trump's speech dangerous.

crickets

(25,952 posts)
31. **Per Jeffrey Toobin**
Mon Jun 1, 2020, 08:38 PM
Jun 2020

The military can only come in

1. at the request of the governors.

2. without need of governors' requests only in order to vindicate Constitutional rights, e.g. Eisenhower and desegregation. The president cannot do this under current circumstances without the request of the states' governors because no vindication of Constitutional rights is involved. He feels trump won't actually go through with the threat nationwide because he knows the governors won't let him.

Toobin feels that this addresses any issues regarding governors' and states' powers vs. the Insurrection Act.

Posse Comitatus still holds.

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