So many people are upset about property damage...

[PTWB]

Never in American History has property damage resulted in meaningful political change.

Or has it?

The Boston Tea Party was a political and mercantile protest by the Sons of Liberty in Boston, Massachusetts, on December 16, 1773.[1] The target was the Tea Act of May 10, 1773, which allowed the British East India Company to sell tea from China in American colonies without paying taxes apart from those imposed by the Townshend Acts. American Patriots strongly opposed the taxes in the Townshend Act as a violation of their rights. Demonstrators, some disguised as Native Americans, destroyed an entire shipment of tea sent by the East India Company.

They boarded the ships and threw the chests of tea into the Boston Harbor. The British government responded harshly and the episode escalated into the American Revolution. The Tea Party became an iconic event of American history, and since then other political protests such as the Tea Party movement have referred to themselves as historical successors to the Boston protest of 1773.

The Tea Party was the culmination of a resistance movement throughout British America against the Tea Act, which had been passed by the British Parliament in 1773. Colonists objected to the Tea Act because they believed that it violated their rights as Englishmen to "no taxation without representation", that is, to be taxed only by their own elected representatives and not by a British parliament in which they were not represented. In addition, the well-connected East India Company had been granted competitive advantages over colonial tea importers, who resented the move and feared additional infringement on their business. Protesters had successfully prevented the unloading of tea in three other colonies, but in Boston, embattled Royal Governor Thomas Hutchinson refused to allow the tea to be returned to Britain.[2]

The Boston Tea Party was a significant event in the growth of the American Revolution. Parliament responded in 1774 with the Intolerable Acts, or Coercive Acts, which, among other provisions, ended local self-government in Massachusetts and closed Boston's commerce. Colonists up and down the Thirteen Colonies in turn responded to the Intolerable Acts with additional acts of protest, and by convening the First Continental Congress, which petitioned the British monarch for repeal of the acts and coordinated colonial resistance to them. The crisis escalated, and the American Revolutionary War began near Boston in 1775.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party

Ask yourselves ... at what point does property become more important than black lives? The answer is never.

[beachbumbob]

1. 1773 colonial times, the colonist had no say or voice in the Kings

dictates. Equating unfair taxation without representation to looting and rioting, not for social justice but to just take stuff and burn people's property who will not get insurance coverage is disengenuois. Shames the real protest and the real victims. You stealing a 70" tv, you are nothing more than a thief.

[backscatter712]

3. How was the Boston Tea Party not looting and rioting?

The Sons of Liberty wore their version of black-bloc clothing (they dressed up as Native Americans - "redface" - yes, that was racist), then they boarded merchant vessels that wern't theirs, and destroyed property that wasn't theirs by throwing it in the harbor.

Because they were protesting a government that gave them no voice.

And yes, the property damage was rather expensive. That load of tea was worth a lot of money. Enough to make the British government upset, and resulted in a blockade of Boston Harbor.

Excuse me if I'm fresh out of sympathy for the cries of property destruction. Maybe our leaders should have listened when Colin Kaepernick took a knee during the anthem. But apparently, non-violent peaceful protests are worthy of firing and ruining of careers. So now we're here.

[stillcool]

9. it just gets more obvious..

there are a whole lot of people who value property over life. Looting is far worse than murder. Hell, these people are the ones that get highly agitated when a road that they use is blocked for a protest about police murdering innocent people. Anything that inconveniences them is more important than the deaths of black people. I'm not sure it would be the same if white kids were getting murdered. Of course, that won't happen, except maybe a one-off.

[Progressive Law]

17. The looting makes those in power (and privileged sypathizers) uncomfortable.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

20. If they threw the tea into the harbor, is that looting?

If they were stuffing their pockets with tea leaves and running home, then yeah, that sounds like looting. Throwing it into the harbor, that's just vandalism.

I don't know if they were rioting. Did they hang around, setting wagons on fire, or did they do their raid and then scoot?

Too bad nobody thought to record the tea party on their cell phone. It would have made history class more interesting.

[ripcord]

40. The Boston Tea Party was a targetted protest

That protest targeted a single ship and nothing more, it was not generalized destruction and theft, I don't understand how people who claim to be rational can make this comparison.

[Devil Child]

50. Because it isn't rational minds making these arguments

Just flailing rationalization for violence and chaos.

[PTWB]

4. Really?

How’s that representation worked out for unarmed black men?

Get real.

[Progressive Law]

16. Except, OP is not equating unfair taxation w/o representation to looting/rioting.

[OneBro]

2. Hmph. History repeats itself . . . again.

Demonstrators, some disguised as Native Americans, destroyed an entire shipment of tea sent by the East India Company.

[backscatter712]

5. Though my favorite example is Stonewall.

"But violence and rioting doesn't solve anything?" Except when it did.

OK, Stonewall was but the beginning, but yes, it was a riot. People starting fires, breaking windows, and throwing bricks at cops.

Because then, just like now, the cops were fucking violent pieces of shit.

And where would the LGBTQIA community be today if it weren't for Stonewall? Fucking nowhere. They tried the peaceful marches, got nowhere.

It took a riot to get people to pay attention to LGBTQIA civil rights.

[customerserviceguy]

6. It's more than just property damage

It's about damaging the lives of the people who will no longer be served by local stores to buy the necessities of life. Most of them don't have cars to get to the suburbs to replenish food, and if transit systems are either not operating or deemed unsafe by elderly residents, then there's no way for them to make it in their current living situations.

And what business people are going to bother to re-open their store or restaurant in the inner city, when the next white cop killing a black man could be any day now? I saw the cities crumble in the aftermath of the 1965-68 urban violence wave, I expect it to happen this time, too. So much for the hopes and dreams of entrepreneurial people of color.

[PTWB]

7. Until black men are given equal protection and representation by our society and our government

Maybe people shouldn’t be comfortable. Maybe making people uncomfortable is exactly what needs to happen.

[customerserviceguy]

10. And when you make suburbanites uncomfortable

they vote for the party opposing the discomfort.

And by "comfortable", I mean financially so. People with jobs that they can still do during the pandemic, or don't have to go to an inner city to work at. Many of them are progressive leaning, and pissing them off probably sends the wrong message to them.

[StarfishSaver]

21. Many of the suburbanites who are uncomfortable with looting

are also uncomfortable with all kinds of other things and those other things are more than enough to prompt them to vote for the "party opposing that discomfort."

Those folks didn't wake up this morning and say, "Until now I was seriously voting for a Democrat but now that I saw somebody coming out of Target with a stolen television, I'm going to vote for Donald Trump."

Anybody who claims to be voting for Trump because someone looted a store was likely going to vote for him anyway no matter what any random looter did - they just now think it's OK to admit it because now they can say, "I'm not voting for the white supremacist because I'm a racist. I'm doing it because black criminals made me 'uncomfortable.'"

[Hoyt]

8. Tear up the Capitol, police stations, city halls, etc., if you must, but what did this accomplish?

"The black-owned shop, Wilbourn Sisters Designs, was caught in what became the second night of violent protests in downtown Atlanta.

"The Wilbourns had hung hand-written signs identifying the shop as a black-owned business. However, those signs did not stop someone from throwing a rock through the boutique’s display window, breaking it to pieces. Other businesses, including black-owned ones, were damaged in similar fashion throughout the city. "

https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/for-vandals-black-owned-businesses-not-exempt-during-atlanta-protest/gQoLWLIDLW49MVIodPA0ZK/


Another example:

https://www.ajc.com/blog/atlanta-restaurants/atlanta-restaurants-assess-damage-plan-reopenings-after-weekend-protests-turn-violence/0SkT2N0dzWXgrOSwkrowdI/

Another:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CA5gdMGB_Ky/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link


Atlanta Mayor pleading:

https://www.wsav.com/video/go-home-go-home-atlanta-mayor-keisha-lance-bottoms-pleads-after-protests-turn-violent/5550856/

[DashOneBravo]

27. +1

[jmg257]

11. Yep throwing tea into a harbor is just like rioting looting

And burning buildings down.

Wonder how Many rioters and looters actually give a shit about black lives.

The certainly care about stealing shit.

[backscatter712]

14. Umm... Read what you just wrote again...

The Boston Tea Party was a riot, and the Sons of Liberty were a mob.

It was a whole bunch of angry guys who stormed out of a hall, dressed up in cosplay, and threw what would today be millions of dollars of tea in the harbor.

And it made the Brits upset enough to impose a naval blockade.

This wasn't some smiley-nicey bit of street theater. It too was essentially a riot. Oh, the only functional difference was they destroyed the property instead of stealing it. Obviously that makes a difference...

The Boston Tea Party was absolutely necessary to get people to start looking at the people's grievances. So is today's unrest. I'm fine with breaking a few eggs to get a social-justice omelet.

[StarfishSaver]

24. When WE do it, we're protesting. When THEY do it, they're rioting

Or, put another way...

When black folk run through the streets, break windows and set fires, it's a riot.

When white folk do it, it's Homecoming ...

[jmg257]

26. Or World Champions!

[StarfishSaver]

30. Boom

[jmg257]

31. Cheers!,

[Ex Lurker]

12. The Boston Tea Party was specific, targeted and limited

The current looting is none of that.

In contrast, consider the rioting that led to the Boston Massacre. British troops shot down several rioting colonists and were acquitted. Their defense attorney was none other than Patriot firebrand Samuel Adams.

[Crunchy Frog]

13. Freedom is "untidy",

and the looting in the States is a result of "pent-up feelings" of oppression and it will subside as citizens adjust to life without Donald Trump come the next election. 

The looting is not as bad as some television and newspaper reports have indicated and there is no major crisis in D.C, our capital city, which we all know tonight lacks a central governing authority... (Trumps in a bunker). The looting, is "part of the price" for what the we should be calling the liberation of our Country. 

Freedom's untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things. They're also free to live their lives and do wonderful things. And that's what's going to happen here." 

In fact it's not uncommon for countries that experience significant social upheaval. "Stuff happens," "This is a transition period between elections and what we hope will be a much more peaceful time," and that's all it is. 

I'm irritated by questions about the looting, and I assert that repeated images of U.S. citizens ransacking buildings represents "a fundamental misunderstanding" of what is happening in our cities across the country. "Very often the pictures are pictures of people going into the symbols of the current regime, into the rich peoples rodeo drive shops, into the never ending "bailed out" Wall Street establishments, and into the places that have been part of that repression," 

And while no one condones looting, on the other hand one can understand the pent-up feelings that may result from decades of repression and people who've had members of their family killed by that regime, for them to be taking their feelings out on that regime.

[judeling]

15. Sorry

In a week filled with grief and rage at the death of yet another black man at the hands of police, several nonprofits and organizations that serve the community were damaged or destroyed.

[link:https://www.minnpost.com/artscape/2020/06/adding-up-the-damage-to-twin-cities-arts-organizations/|

Migizi managed to get its archive of Native American interview out, but that was a knife in the heart of a community.

And then there is Uncle Hugo's
We may not think this is a community. But independent bookstores certainly can be and the oldest SciFi bookstore in America certainly was.

I wont shed tears over Target (although we worked hard to get them to put that store in), or the Nike store (although a friend of my sister is now homeless as his apartment above burned with it). In some way I can understand that.

But do not try and excuse looting and burning.

[PTWB]

18. Hmmm

I see variants of “George Floyd’s death is terrible but the looting and rioting has to stop” in forums and comments across the Internet.

My reply:

“Looting and rioting is terrible but the murder of unarmed black men has to stop.”


You see, I just can’t come to prioritize ANY personal property over the snuffed out lives of these men.

[judeling]

22. People Die defending sacred texts, sacred places, lifes work and livelyhoods, we call it noble

I cannot excuse anyone who forces that.

[PTWB]

25. Hmmm

People die for no other reason than the color of their skin. I cannot excuse any society who allows that to continue for decades and decades and decades.

[backscatter712]

33. Exactly. We need to address the police brutality and systemic racism.

Karen's "Live Laugh Love" shop is further down on the list of priorities.

[EllieBC]

23. So have you offered up your car or stuff yet?

Or are you still just scolding people?

[Skittles]

45. the hypocrisy is staggering

it's like they don't care that firemen have to risk their lives because of someone's "anger"

[EllieBC]

47. They are the very privilege they despise.

It’s easy to sit in the safe suburbs and wax poetic about vandalism, looting, and destruction.

And they definitely don’t give a damn about the firefighters running around trying to put fires out or EMTs trying to tend to the injured or hospitals getting overwhelmed in 2 weeks with COVID.

[Skittles]

48. agreed

the excuses are sickening

[milestogo]

29. In my city we're talking about small businesses, owned by liberals,

that are struggling to recover from the COVID19 shutdown. One of these places hosts Democratic fundraisers all the time. How does destroying their property serve to eliminate racism?

[PTWB]

32. Were any farmers or workers hurt by the destruction of the tea in the Boston tea party?

As a society we must recognize that the looting, rioting and vandalism are a symptom of how we have failed black Americans for hundreds of years. Fixing those failings - not the symptoms - should be the priority.

[backscatter712]

34. The ships involved lost their entire cargo.

The tea destroyed in the Boston Tea Party was worth a lot of money.

So I suppose it affected the ship's owners, the crews, the shops that had ordered the tea, and so on and so forth.

[milestogo]

37. The context is 2020 and you evaded my question.

[PTWB]

38. The context is 2020 and we are still dealing with this shit.

Forgive me for not caring too much about some merchandise in a store when unarmed black men are still being murdered by the state...157 years after emancipation... 65 years after Emmett Till... 30 years after Rodney King.

Forgive me for wondering if it will take this level of destruction, or more, to get the attention of our society and the corporations that control it.

[stillcool]

36. it doesn't. It's a symptom..

you can jail the person exhibiting the symptom, and never acknowledge the cause. Which is what Americans do. All the time. Unless you're white and it's a football game. Emotions gone amok.

[SideStep]

35. Property damage and violence have often brought about positive change.

It’s a rewriting of history to say they haven’t and I personally take issue with the apologetic or those who make excuses.

There are a number of reasons for this. When the more aggressive elements of movements resort to vandalism, it’s often well past time for change. Governments at all levels are forced to move on issues of social justice, meaning they lag behind the times. Second, neither vandalism or violence are pretty. Violence leads to state agencies overreacting and the imagery in isn’t pretty.

[SMC22307]

39. A 105-year-old furniture store was damaged in downtown Raleigh.

The manager is a black man who defended the store for two nights of rioting. Listening to him speak broke my heart, same with the woman they interviewed -- the one who worked at the store her entire adult life. It's not just "property" damage, these people are taking it personally.

https://www.wral.com/riot-damages-105-year-old-local-furniture-shop-in-downtown-raleigh/19124965/

Now we've got rioters expressing regret:

'Destruction is not the answer:' After Raleigh riots, those arrested express regret
https://www.wral.com/destruction-is-not-the-answer-after-raleigh-riots-those-arrested-express-regret/19126202/

[PTWB]

42. Their story is very sympathetic.

I’m sad they sustained property damage. I still very adamantly believe property damage is not the problem here. The problem is people who are prioritizing stopping property damage when that is just a symptom of the disease that is systemic racism, oppression and state sanctioned murder of unarmed minorities. Fix that problem and there won’t be properly damage to be so “concerned” about.

[SMC22307]

46. You want to get more people on board with the cause?

Stop the property damage. Small businesses competing against Corporate America and trying to survive COVID-19 do not deserve fires and/or looting. These business are people's livelihoods and important parts of the community (like the furniture store above). I'm telling you - the destruction of them is a losing proposition. And the young black men getting arrested for the looting? Their lives just got a WHOLE lot harder.

"People were throwing stuff to the windows of black-owned businesses," she said. "I just felt like it wasn't fair, you know. We were doing this to our own people."

"I never thought I'd have to stand in front of someone's black-owned business and tell black people not to mess with it. It was sad," she said.

https://www.wral.com/a-message-for-protesters-wilson-businesses-hang-signs-on-windows/19125134/

[mahatmakanejeeves]

41. Hey, have you set your car on fire yet?

I would gladly volunteer my vehicle to the fires of social change

in the thread

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with the burning of stores and vehicles.

Let us know when you have that video.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

43. Going back 200 years black folks...

...were not able to own anything. Part of the freedoms described by the words life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness depend upon each individual having the freedom to make his own decisions and work as he saw fit such that he was able find his happiness by determining how much or how little time he would spend working. That's why slavery was wrong. Pretending that looting and rioting are okay because other crimes or worse crimes exist is such a lame excuse. What should I say? Don't complain that I wrote you a bad check for my mortgage because theirs thousands of pedophiles in this country???

Crime is crime. All of it is bad. All of it requires due process.

Are POC mistreated by the police? Sure, all the time. Every time it happens, it's wrong. But, do you believe that if I go to a local drug store at 2AM tomorrow morning smash the door, steal the inventory and leave 9 -15 people out of work, that the local police will sit up, take notice and say to themselves, "Hey, someone burglarized the drug store, so I think I won't kill that black man I have in cuffs." If you do, you're mistaken.

Right now looting and arson are taking a toll in police responding to calls; maybe taking days to answer calls on domestic violence. Maybe emergency services are off fighting a fire while calls about folks that need CPR and ride to the ER aren't being answered. Or maybe just not in time.

There is no need to loot or burn. Those folks that own those businesses or homes will either be convinced without arson and burglary or will become enemies after their losses.

Ever heard of that Ghandi fellow from India? I think he was incredibly successful without any burning, pillaging or vandalizing.

BTW, as of 1773 the East India Company was an arm of the British government. Check it out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company#East_India_Company_Act_1773

[PTWB]

44. I have three questions for you...

1. How long should we protest peacefully, while being ignored, until we try more forceful methods to change the system?

2. In the event that we spend the next 65 years just like the last 65 years and black men are still being murdered by the state with regularity, what do you suggest we do?

3. How much economic pressure do you think it would take, in the form of rioting, vandalism and looting, before corporations got sick of losing profits and demanded their bought and paid for representatives in government actually do something?


At this point we don’t have power. Money is power and money is speech and it belongs to corporate special interests. No, burning the mom and pop flower shop to the ground isn’t going to change anything directly. But simultaneous riots, fires, vandalism, curfews, and unrest in hundreds of American cities just might.


People have reached the breaking point. This is the next phase. This is what happens when peaceful protests are ignored.

Colin Kaepernick knelt. That was a peaceful protest. It got a lot of attention but ultimately was easy to ignore.

People in power are learning something this week.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

49. I have some answers

1. Protests are only one type of strategy. With protests widespread they do get mention on the news. Near my house is the city of Camden, NJ. The police there have been making efforts to become familiar with residents and plan regular meetings with communities so the people get to know the cops. They had a protest parade. It was peaceful. The police chief marched with them.

Meet with police. Be civil. Meet the mayor and local legislators. Meet with state legislators and mail or email the governor. Go door to door one on one and ask residents to vote and join your cause. No one has come to my door to say anything. I do see lots folks on the news stealing from businesses. Local stores are on fire in Philly. Last night I saw stolen items recovered from a stash house. This borders on organized crime. According to Philly's police chief, some of it is organized crime. She (a black woman) claims there is evidence of the involvement of organized crime in the 30 plus bombings of ATMs across the city.

Produce some PR. Organize with educated articulate folks writing and speaking with the media. Develop a dialog with groups in the communities. Obama was community organizer. Generate press releases, get permits to demonstrate. Advertise. If it works for Walmart and Red Lobster it will work for any real cause. All the laws and punitives for drunk driving didn't change things as much the media work and the designated driver ads.

Sure continue to protest but don't give anyone the excuse to view you as an enemy.

How long? Until you are ready to begin an actual revolution as colonists did in the 18th century.

2. If you feel doing what your doing for another 65 years is a good idea, you have failed to evaluate what's happened making it impossible to apply anything that could be learned. I would be interested to find out how many looters maybe sell those stolen items and donate that money to BLM or another group working to achieve something good. Put some money where your bricks and matches are.

3. Economic pressure will never be the answer in itself. Accountability is what's needed. That will take changes to municipal policy making police accountable. Independent reviews of excessive force with victim support and new laws dealing with the issue are needed.

My daughter is a store manager. If she was assaulted during one of these ill-conceived riots, I would take it very personally. Whatever the supposed cause being rioted for would become my enemy on any level available. I would dedicate the balance of my life to personally ruining the lives of everyone involved.

People in power are learning something this week.

Failing to recognize that you are in power is the first strike against you. Becoming a criminal surrenders your best chance of using that power. The "people in power" are now trying to decide who the enemy really is. Don't make it an easy choice.