Grounded! Army Immediately Suspended Helo Crew That Buzzed DC Protesters

[Zorro]

The crew of the helicopter that buzzed protestors in D.C. Monday night was grounded immediately after the incident, Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy said on Friday.

McCarthy announced that a 15-6 investigation was being conducted, which examines violations of Army regulations or standards, according to multiple news outlets covering the Pentagon.

Army investigators will provide an “interim update” of the probe later on Friday, according to a tweet from Politico’s Lara Seligman.

The D.C National Guard UH-72 Lakota helicopter – with a red cross marking – that flew low over protestors in Washington made waves not only through the downwash of its rotor blades but in the shock it provoked among those with military and helicopter experience.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/grounded-army-immediately-suspended-helo-crew-that-buzzed-dc-protesters

[Drahthaardogs]

1. Question is who is appointed to oversee the 15-6

Supposed to be a neutral Commander, but I bet Trump gets a sympathetic colonel.

[rpannier]

14. I found this at Army Publications

https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/r15_6.pdf

This major revision, dated 1 April 2016--o Provides guidance on flagging of Soldiers under investigation in accordance with AR 600-8-2 (paras 1-10 and 1-11).

Authorizes a civilian supervisor permanently assigned to a position graded as a General Schedule-14 or higher, or their equivalent, and who is assigned as the head of an agency, activity, division, or directorate, to appoint investigating officers and boards (para 2-1a).
Authorizes a general or flag officer in a command billet or a general courts-martial convening authority to appoint an investigation or board for incidents resulting in property damage of $2 million or more, the loss or destruction of an Army aircraft, an injury and/or illness resulting in, or likely to result in, permanent total disability or the death of one or more persons, where the cause is not due to friendly fire (para 2-1c).
Requires the next superior authority to appoint an investigation or board for Class A training accidents resulting in, or likely to result in, the permanent total disability or death of one or more persons, and for combat-related deaths involving non-Department of Defense personnel or an insider (green on blue) attack (para 2-1c).
Clarifies when the authority to appoint an investigation of a death may be delegated (para 2-1c).
Provides additional guidance on friendly fire appointing authority (para 2-1c).
Prohibits an individual from appointing an inquiry, investigation, or board if that individual is reasonably likely to become a witness; has an actual or perceived bias for or against a potential subject of the investigation; or has an actual or perceived conflict of interest in the outcome of the investigation (para 2-1f).
Authorizes the appointment of Department of the Army civilians in the grade of General Schedule-11, or higher, as investigating officers and members of boards (para 2-3b).
Authorizes the appointment of non commissioned officers in the grade of E-7,or higher, as investigating officers under certain circumstances (para 2-3b).o Provides additional guidance on appointing assistant investigating officers(paras 2-3c and 5-1).
Provides that each investigation or board directed under this regulation must have a designated legal advisor (para 2-6b)

[Drahthaardogs]

17. I have been through several, I know what they are

This will NOT be a civilian. It will be a full bird Colonel.

[Blue_true]

35. "I've been through several". Did the Army get tired of it and send you to "The Rock"

to cool off?

[CRK7376]

34. Typically a Soldiers accused of a serious incident are subjected to a 15-6 investigaton.

During my last 5 years in the Army, I probably conducted a dozen 15-6 Investigations against officers and senior NCOs. I was a senior officer and was always appointed by the 2star Post Commander. I investigated a helicopter pilot that was drinking alcohol in a combat zone, 2-3 suicides, a Battalion Commander that rubbed the shoulders of a Family Support Group Leader (not his wife), several Drill Sergeants for doing stupid stuff, Motorpool NCOs that had risque pinup posters in the workbays (sexual harassment/conduct unbecoming), a Drill Sergeant messing with a trainees mail, loss of unit radios and a mechanic tool chest, vehicle destruction. couple of Chaplins doing stupid stuff....Stuff like that. Never a dull moment. A 15-6 requires lots of investigation, interviews, common sense and experience, writing skills and a recommendation/briefing for the Post commander at the conclusion of the investigation. Having spent 38 years in uniform, enlisted out of high school, won my Sergeant stripes, then got commissioned and retired as a Colonel. All that tended to make me become the 15-6 guy for the Post Commander, along with my other duties....Most of the cases were pretty interesting and time consuming. I learned a lot doing them too, and fortunately for me I had really good Sergeant Majors (3 in 5 years) working for me that I could bounce ideas, get their experience and recommendations....A 15-6 Investigation is an important tool for commanders, it helps them with good order and discipline.

[Drahthaardogs]

36. They are very common for just about everything

I have seen them for misappropriation of funds to someone stealing a guys equipment ( to see if he was negligent).

Pending the outcome, the Commander either drops any further action or recommends for further review.

[Thomas Hurt]

2. did it on their own (wink, wink) bad apples (wink, wink)

[ResistantAmerican17]

6. If I had a nickel for everybody I knew who stole a Helicopter to buzz some

lawful protesters...... I wouldn’t have one damn nickel. These guys “followed orders”.

[relayerbob]

11. LOL, but ...

Anyone not authorized to be in an aircraft that close to the white house would have been blown out of the sky.

Some of the most heavily defended airspace on the planet

[stillcool]

3. here's what I want to know..

The backstory of who, if anyone, ordered the military helicopter to conduct the maneuver remains unclear. The AP reported on Tuesday that President Trump himself ordered the helicopter to be deployed, while the New York Times wrote that it was “directed by the highest echelons of the Washington National Guard.”

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/grounded-army-immediately-suspended-helo-crew-that-buzzed-dc-protesters

[Cha]

4. That's good.. I hope we find out who the hell made it happen?!

Link to tweet

The backstory of who, if anyone, ordered the military helicopter to conduct the maneuver remains unclear. The AP reported on Tuesday that President Trump himself ordered the helicopter to be deployed, while the New York Times wrote that it was “directed by the highest echelons of the Washington National Guard.”

[yellowdogintexas]

18. makes one wonder if that is the reason the chopper wasn't blown out of the sky nt

[gratuitous]

5. Trump better get his pardon pen warmed up

Military tactics carried out on civilian populations is generally frowned upon, but in Trumpworld it's all right to use those tactics against American citizens.

Trump learned a good lesson from his acquittal by the Senate Republicans. I wonder if it is the lesson Sen. Collins meant to teach him?

[spudspud]

12. Trump doesn't give a crap about anyone except himself, and maybe his daughter (maybe).

He's not pardoning ANY of his cronies unless it benefits him personally. Like keeping their mouths shut about inside knowledge of his crimes. All the expendable minions doing their Emperor's bidding, will be left butt naked out in the cold rain with their palms open when he doesn't provide them their get out of jail free card.

[gratuitous]

16. He also cares about pwning the libs

Which explains the pardons of the likes of Joe Arpaio and Eddie Gallagher. Military personnel charged with menacing the demonstrators in DC would fit in with his modus operandi.

[spudspud]

20. True, but I think he mainly did those things to help score

political points for re-election. I don't see him handing out these pardons when he loses the upcoming election, to these small fry.

[keithbvadu2]

33. Drives libruls crazy

Drives libruls crazy

[crickets]

7. Can't wait to find out who really gave the orders.

Although, we might be waiting for quite a while...

[uponit7771]

8. If this went through a full chain of command all those guys are screwed

[Alex4Martinez]

9. Buck stops here. If Trump didn't know about it, he damn well should have. nt

[DURHAM D]

10. Senator Duckworth has been all over this.

Saw her on tv a few days ago and she was really upset and pushing for answers. She was laying out the details on minimum altitude etc.

[spanone]

13. I saw that. K&R

[Hekate]

19. Considering Sen. Duckworth was herself a combat helicopter pilot, she's got a great background ...

...for investigating this incident.

[Gore1FL]

15. One of my biggest fears of Trump using gas, rubber bullets, and dangerous helicopter maneuvers...

..It will give the United States justification to invade us for our oil.

[spudspud]

21. LOL.

[Kali]

22. !

[SammyWinstonJack]

38. Heh.

[BumRushDaShow]

39. DUzy!

[dumbcat]

23. I must be missing something here

What is so scary about a medevac bird clearly marked with big red crosses?

Why is everyone so upset? I would find it comforting to have a medevac bird on station in case someone got seriously injured.

[jackcrow2001]

25. I'm guessing you haven't been around many helicopters.......

I'm going to ignore the possibility that you are being sarcastic..... and just state that the air disruption underneath helicopter rotors can be extremely powerful........ Its a crowd disruption tactic to try to break up mobs using the violent airflow when a helicopter buzzes a crowd at the right angles, using this tactic on protester's in the United States is all kinds of wrong.

[dumbcat]

27. Well, I've been around a few

during my 40 years with the US Army, including 10 years in the Army Combat Developments Experimentation Command doing tactical concept tests on new Army Helicopters (I was a Test Officer for the initial AH-64 Apache) and developing new combat techniques using helicopters. In that time I NEVER, even once, heard even any mention of using rotor down-wash as a means of crowd disruption. There are way too many things wrong with that concept for it to be viable. No RW (rotary wing) pilot in his right mind is going to hover over a potentially hostile crowd, especially within throwing distance. And once they're above 10 meters or so the down-wash isn't that disruptive.

So, again, I don't see what is so scary about a medevac bird hovering at what looked like at least 10-15 meters. At worst it may blow your hat off.

[Skittles]

37. you don't find using the military as props distasteful?

what exactly was the purpose of that stunt?

[dumbcat]

40. I generally don't find having a medevac bird around distasteful

but I have no idea what their (the aircraft) purpose was. If I had to guess I would say that the crew has been assigned air evac responsibility for the area and were doing a familiarization flight to check for potential hazards in the area. But I don't really know.

My original comment was confined to why everyone was concerned about a clearly marked medevac bird and calling it a "show of force". It was not about the general use of the active duty Army forces at the protest for crowd control, with which I disapprove.

[Skittles]

41. I was in the military too

I highly doubt that was the purpose.

[c-rational]

42. The tactic is called persistent presence, and is usually reserved for combat zones. See

the following post. https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213556139

[dumbcat]

45. Not quite. There are doctrines involving persistent presence, but

they have nothing to do with helicopters, rotor down-wash or crowd control. A google search will find some references to such a term, but the only places where it is connected to the use in helicopters and crowd control is in the stories about this specific incident. You'll not find the term in any FM, TM or doctrine manual or document. Some reporter heard a cool term that sounded appropriate and threw it out.

Can anyone find me an official doctrine manual or other source that describes this tactic? If so, I may reconsider.

[Nature Man]

43. Your army talk is turning me on

Was that a special unit of the Gravy and Biscuits Team, Meal Team Six, or the Snacktime Rangers?

[dumbcat]

44. You can google it.

It's not hard. (!)

[LanternWaste]

26. Yes. Yes you are. Again.

Going for the weekend tri-fecta or just a Friday night weekend?

(fingers crossed either way!)

[dumbcat]

28. Not sure what you are trying to say

I have some honest questions. Is that not allowed any more? Or is questioning why a hovering medevac bird is scary some kind of right wing talking point?

[Another Jackalope]

30. Two words:

Mechanical failure.

[dumbcat]

32. True dat

Way too many moving parts for my comfort. Even thought I worked in and around rotary wing aircraft for decades, I was never very happy when in them, especially during NOE flight. Too many things can go wrong.

[bluecollar2]

24. Easy way to stop that tactic...

Launch chains into the rotors' flightpath...

Unfortunately, such a tactic could prove fatal to the crew, the people below it and is definitely a violation of the law...

We're on a razor's edge here...open carry intimidation tactics by the right wing tea party trumpists opposed by certain elements of the resistance movement...

But, when the s**t hits the fan all bets are off.

We need some leadership soon.

[BlueIdaho]

29. I'm a big fan of the old laser in the eyes...

Good for all kinds of fascists near and far.

[bluecollar2]

31. Whatever works...

Again, just for Agent Steve's benefit...we both agree that under normal circumstances , interfering with the operation of an aircraft is a federal offense...and is not an action we would encourage, endorse or support...