I don't quite know how to say this.

[LAS14]

For starters, I'm appalled at what happened to George Floyd, and at the peaceful protesters outside the White House and at the host of other things we're all appalled at.

But I can't stop thinking about what I learned on Rachel last night, albeit almost as an aside from the mayor of Buffalo. That is that the reason the police didn't stop to help the man they had knocked over is that they had been trained not to stop for an injured person, even their own, but to keep moving, because their contingent included medics, whose job it was to provide aid. And, indeed, a medic showed up in less than a minute, but the video only caught a glimpse. To me the most horrifying aspect of that report was the police walking away, showing no concern. It turns out not to have been what it looked like. We have to be very careful about jumping to conclusions if we hope to arrive at some sort of progress in living together.

And a different question. It seemed clear that the police where treating the protester in an incredibly disrespectful, probably needlessly confrontational way. Do any of you know about best practices in crowd control if the police have been asked to clear an area? It shouldn't look like what we saw. But what should it look like? Honest question hoping for some informed responses.

[TruckFump]

1. The asshole cops should NOT have knocked him over in the first place.

Then there would not have been any negativity or need for an explanation. What they did was wrong. PERIOD. They could have walked around him, asked him to move, led him out of the way...but knock him over??? Fuck that.

[uponit7771]

5. +1, it was not necessary

[MoonlitKnight]

37. This

No need to argue further.

[3catwoman3]

2. That was a surprising segment.

I am not sure what to think about it. Such an expectation, such training, seems counter to instinct.

[StarfishSaver]

3. They shouldn't have knocked him over and then lied about it

And in between the assault and the lie someone on that force should have shown the man some concern and, even if they knew help was coming, at least stopped, knelt next to him, held his hand and let him know that help was on its way, instead of walking past him as he lay bleeding in the street.

I can only imagine how frightened that man must have been, lying in the ground alone, bleeding, unable to get up or even sit up, and looking up to see only uniform police marching past him without even looking down.

I don't care what anyone says - that was effed up on every level.

[Freedomofspeech]

11. I agree...

The total lack of compassion for that man was frightening. Those police acted like robots.

[sop]

4. That's military training, it has no place in agencies supposedly trained to "protect and serve."

Being trained "not to stop for an injured person, even their own, but to keep moving" sounds like the kind of thing soldiers in combat situations are told.

[Mariana]

6. "It seemed clear that the police where treating the protester

in an incredibly disrespectful, probably needlessly confrontational way..."

Wrong. They weren't "disrespectful" and "confrontational". They were violent. And then they lied about it.

[lame54]

7. So they've been trained to...

Take no responsibility for their own actions?

They pushed him and caused his injuries

Hit and run is a crime

[Ferrets are Cool]

8. I don't believe a word that asshole said.

That is my "informed" response for you.
Jumping to conclusions?

[bluedigger]

19. Did you see the segment?

That "asshole" was the black Mayor of Buffalo. Self delete is your friend.

[drray23]

25. Dude, he was still an asshole.

he spend the interview with Rachel making excuses for the police violence.

[Arazi]

9. The police said the man tripped and fell. They deliberately lied until they were exposed by video

How do you know that National Guard person was a medic? Why do you believe that?

[ok_cpu]

10. If a half dozen or more can be occupied by the one protester

Who was told "don't f'ing come toward me!" or whatever, it seems like one or two could reasonably help the man they knocked down until medical help got there.

I don't recall much of a crowd to be controlled, or mass chaos - other than that created by the police - in that scene.

I think the conclusion that is needed is whether we're cool with that scene as long as it adheres to the best practices of crowd-control-as-combat.

[rgbecker]

12. Police assaulted the man. Plain and simple. Lock 'em up.

The crime of battery is the intentional touching of another in an angry manner, or the intentional use of force or violence against another. Grabbing someone’s arm, pushing or punching a person or striking a victim with an object all are crimes of battery.

The crime of assault is defined differently from one state to another. In some states, the act of battery is called an “assault” or “assault and battery.” In other states, assault does not involve actual physical contact, and is defined as an attempt to commit a physical attack or as threatening actions that cause a person to feel afraid of impending violence. Under this definition, verbal threats are usually not enough to constitute an assault. Some action such as raising a fist or moving menacingly toward a victim usually is required. In these states, threatening to hurt someone while walking toward him with a clenched, raised fist would constitute assault.

In states that define assault as placing a victim in fear of violence, the victim’s response must not only be genuine but reasonable under the circumstances. The test normally is whether the defendant’s actions would cause a reasonable person to be in fear of an immediate physical attack. In other words, the victim’s response must be one that you’d expect from any reasonable person in the victim’s position.
When Is a Crime a Felony Assault or Battery?

Simple assault or battery is the least serious form of assault or battery, usually involves minor injury or a limited threat of violence, and is a misdemeanor. Felony assault or battery (also referred to in some states as aggravated assault or battery) involves circumstances that make the crime more serious, as when the victim is threatened with or experiences significant violence amounting to substantially more than a minor slap across the face or a punch in the jaw.

Examples of felony assault or battery include:

striking or threatening to strike a person with a weapon or dangerous object
shooting a person with a gun or threatening to kill someone while pointing a gun at the victim
assault or battery with the intent to commit another felony crime such as robbery or rape
assault or battery resulting in serious physical injury, including permanent disfigurement
assault (threat of violence) while concealing one’s identity, and
assault or battery against a member of a protected class, such as a police officer, healthcare provider, social services worker, or developmentally disabled or elderly person.

More at: [link:https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/felony-assault-battery.htm|

[MoonRiver]

13. If that's the policy it needs to change.

Sometimes a hurt person can't wait until the medic comes. My understanding is that all police are trained in CPR and first aid. Any of them could have stopped to check on that poor man, regulations be damned.

[MineralMan]

14. Here's the thing: Police officers are not military personnel, and citizens

are not enemies. Police department are charged with enforcing laws and protecting the population. That is not done by pushing an unarmed, elderly man to the ground, causing him to strike the back of his head against the pavement and sending him to the hospital with a serious injury. Especially when the man did nothing to provoke such an assault.

The police are not a military force. They are first responders, and should have rendered aid to that man at once. There was no threatening crowd on that scene. The officers were on their way to somewhere else. The man who was assaulted was speaking to the officers, which is not a crime. He broke no law. The police officers broke the law and compounded their action by not rendering aid to an injured person.

There is no excuse for such behavior and punishment is in order for the officer who pushed the man down and for whoever told others not to render aid.

It is very simple, indeed.

[LAS14]

28. My point was to address the extra layer of horror that many (all?) of us felt...

... when all of those police walked on as if nothing had happened. That detail has been misinterpreted. See my reply #27.

It is not very simple. It is complex.

[grumpyduck]

15. Going back to the OP,

and regardless of the police's actions and training, we all need to keep in mind that the media often spins stories and shows only part of what actually happened.

I don't want to get into why they do so, but let's just accept that the media does it, and not just accept everything they tell us.

[Drahthaardogs]

16. Huh? Talk about the cause not the blame

Don’t shove an old man with a cane

[dalton99a]

17. They should not have caused him to require medical care to begin with

and then lied about it

[ok_cpu]

18. With more time to think about this and others of these OP lately

in my almost 16 years here, I finally have my first ignore - and maybe my first alert and hide.

I don't think you are particularly good at what you do.

And, you sea, I'd be lioning if I said otherwise.

[tulipsandroses]

20. I will echo what others have said. It should have not happened PERIOD.

Then they lied about it. It shows what the culture is.

Second of all. The man was bleeding after hitting his head. Sorry, sometimes you make adjustments when life may be on the line.

I am sure they have gone against training many times in other ways. I have many times in my career in healthcare, if it means the outcome is to prevent tragedy.

No excuse.

And to add, just because we are told that "this is policy or how they are trained", does not mean we have to accept that. Some policies and trainings are just plain wrong and should not stand.

[ismnotwasm]

21. Well

That may be so. But I keep thinking about surgery

Due to many mistakes, medical professionals have developed responses to these mistakes. Time out to correctly identify the patient and the surgery (the right limb for instance in an amputation) sponge count and other items used in surgery accounted for and documented. Details of what was done, why it was done, how long it took ect. When an event or death happens with surgery the entire process is reviewed

I know police have to write reports, and have policies and procedures. I understand their job is dangerous and moved fast.

If policies and procedures are resulting in deaths and damage, they need to review them. Are the effective? Are they necessary? Did they provide the desired outcome? What could have been improved? Whatever the police have in place needs work.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

22. I don't think our police are being trained on how to engage with non-violent crowds.

They're mostly trained on how to react with terrorists and violent criminals. Training on how to engage with peaceful but angry protesters requires an entirely different and perhaps radical school of thought, perhaps designed by psychologists and sociologists rather then criminologists.

Let's remember that after 9/11, massive funding was poured into police training in reaction the the right's morbid fear of an invisible Muslim hoard that was coming to get us all. Can't remember the specifics but I believe several private training schools we set up around the country that were owned by wealthy hard-right Republicans and many of our officers were sent to those schools for anti-terrorism training which is highly militarized.

Engaging with a crowd of peaceful protesters you've been ordered to disperse requires completely different techniques. Certainly uniforms and equipment that do not invoke fear and training on anger-reducing dialog is a start. It would also help if permitted protests were required to have an easily identifiable leader that police could approach should there be trouble. However, that could not be universally required because it would deny spontaneous protest, a tenant of American democracy.

I believe several nations in Europe and other parts of the world have long-term experience on how to peacefully engage with protest crowds and perhaps we should consult with those authorities.

I feel certain effective training programs can be designed and implemented but our biggest challenge would be the huge funding required to get it done. Republicans will fight to the death to prevent that spending that might even require tax increases. They truly want our police forces to be militarized.

KY.......

[Demsrule86]

32. Quite simply knocking someone down violates the law...and cops are not nor should be above the law.

So I don't give to fucks what training they receive. If they hurt someone, they better be able to prove self defense or prepare for the consequences of their actions ...enough already.

[SlogginThroughIt]

23. How about don't knock down a 70 yr old man!!!!

I am supposed to be impressed because they had a medic in their ranks?

Don’t injure peaceful protestors to start with!

[OhNo-Really]

24. 75 year old man. Why isn't the CO being charged?

[LizBeth]

26. One thing I have noticed cops don't do is take friggin 2 seconds to listen. Do as they demand,

or suffer repercussions. 2 secs would be clear the man wanted to hand over a mask. Conflict avoided.

Then tell the man curfew, closing it down and go away, another two sec to see if he responds. Instead they went to an immediate shove.

[LAS14]

27. I've been trying to articulate to myself what's been going on in this...

... thread. Much of the response is that the man should not have been pushed in the first place. But, of course, that's not the point I was making. The best I can do is ask whether wrongdoing in an event absolves us of the responsibility to look for the truth in all the details. I don't think it does.

[Demsrule86]

31. What truth....that the cops were only following orders? Suggest you look up Nuremberg trials. That

will not absolve you of the consequences of your actions. The cop that pushed him deserves to be fired and tried for his actions.

[LAS14]

35. That what was going on in their heads is probobably not what it looked like. nt

[obamanut2012]

29. lolz

just stop

[Celerity]

38. +100000

[demmiblue]

39. No kidding. n/t

[Demsrule86]

30. It doesn't matter. It was assault pure and simple.

[Demsrule86]

33. And if they were only doing their job...why did they feel the need to lie and say the victim

victim 'fell down'? And a unit that needs their own paramedics needs to be disbanded.

[LAS14]

36. As I've pointed out elsewhere, I wasn't saying they did nothing wrong. nt

[demmiblue]

34. Classic LAS.