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MineralMan

(146,262 posts)
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 11:00 AM Jun 2020

On Abolishing or Defunding Police Departments

We are very justifiably angry at the behavior of Police Departments in many places. A call has gone out to defund and abolish those departments. It's unlikely that will occur, since the police have a valid function that needs to be performed. The domestic abuse victim, the rape victim, the victim of a burglary, the families of murder victims and other victims all need a working police department.

The problem is not the existence of police departments. The problem is the management of police departments.

In many places, police departments have gained almost absolute autonomy over the years. They operate without sufficient review and without being managed by the people who pay for them. When proposals to institute non-police review boards and to investigate wrongdoing in police departments are made, it is typical for police departments to use threatening tactics, some subtle and some not so subtle, to quash such proposals.

Over time, it has become almost impossible for local governmental jurisdictions to exert control over their own police departments. Attempts to regain control are met with solid resistance from Police Chiefs and especially from Police Unions and Federations. In most cases, local governments cave at that resistance and fail to exert control. It has become a habitual thing in jurisdictions all across the nation.

It is long past time for elected governments to put a stop to that autonomy. The single source of power they have to do so in most cases is that local government jurisdictions control the funding of such departments. Defunding is a solid way to exert control. Removal of appointed leadership in police departments is another means of control by City Councils and Mayors. Defunding, however, is the only power a local jurisdiction can exercise to regain control of law enforcement in that jurisdiction.

However, defunding does not necessarily mean disbanding. It can also enable a top-to-bottom reorganization of local law enforcement. That is what is actually needed. Police departments need to be managed at the highest level by people elected to office by the citizens of a jurisdiction. That control must be absolute, and with no recourse. It must include the ability to remove police officers and leadership personnel summarily. It must include civil review boards with the power to recommend who should be removed summarily, as well.

Control of police departments must be in the hands of people who have to answer to the voters in each jurisdiction. Without that control, police departments have no supervision adequate to the job and can remain autonomous and act as they please.

If defunding is needed to gain that control, then it should be used. No elected body of officials should allow itself to be intimidated by law enforcement organizations. Ever. Whatever is needed to put police departments under the control of elected officials should be done. It is that simple.

Police departments have gained far too much power in most jurisdictions and need to have that power removed and civilian authority restored. That is the minimum that needs to be done. Whatever means to achieve that goal are required are acceptable and should be used. If the only power the government of a jurisdiction has is funding, then defunding should be on the table.

As with all posts written by me, this one is my own opinion. Your opinion might differ, and you can state it in a reply.

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
On Abolishing or Defunding Police Departments (Original Post) MineralMan Jun 2020 OP
Defunding or abolishing police departments oswaldactedalone Jun 2020 #1
Crap, eh? MineralMan Jun 2020 #2
OK then oswaldactedalone Jun 2020 #3
Um. The entire post is about reform. KentuckyWoman Jun 2020 #12
Agreed. it's very misguied messaging (at best). themaguffin Jun 2020 #34
Concision and spareseness Nature Man Jun 2020 #4
Thank you for your criticism. MineralMan Jun 2020 #16
Well... you're new to this. Give it some time, I'm sure you'll improve. NurseJackie Jun 2020 #20
I sure hope so! MineralMan Jun 2020 #21
This message was self-deleted by its author Nature Man Jun 2020 #32
I got the message, it is right and on target. nt Blue_true Jun 2020 #19
Absolutely! Zambero Jun 2020 #5
Agree this wills are the hell out of many. Way too nuanced. Dream Girl Jun 2020 #9
Police departments are overfunded. PTWB Jun 2020 #11
This Calculating Jun 2020 #13
Poll: Cut funding for police departments - 16% Support and 65% Oppose maximusveritas Jun 2020 #6
The same polls are finding that 70% of people feel that Trump's Blue_true Jun 2020 #25
I favor mass re-training Bayard Jun 2020 #7
As I was growing up, I came to understand that the surest way to give Blue_true Jun 2020 #22
If your police force has... tonedevil Jun 2020 #38
De-militarize the police. Squinch Jun 2020 #8
Bad Police Departments just Wellstone ruled Jun 2020 #10
How about a middle path? How about de-militarize the police? How about diverting some money to... Yavin4 Jun 2020 #14
The same politicians that are sending money to police departments are Blue_true Jun 2020 #28
It worked in tiny town Kentucky. KentuckyWoman Jun 2020 #15
Thank you for that example. MineralMan Jun 2020 #17
Defunding is a horrible idea and if our side embraces that, we lose. Blue_true Jun 2020 #18
Before any of that can be done, local officials need to MineralMan Jun 2020 #23
You know, I really hate to follow his lead. Blue_true Jun 2020 #29
Typically, it is actually very difficult to fire a police officer at all. MineralMan Jun 2020 #30
Part of the process would require voiding parts of civil service laws that protect bad apples. Blue_true Jun 2020 #33
Break 'em up like a bad corporation Blue_Adept Jun 2020 #24
Yes. MineralMan Jun 2020 #26
A good start is to crush the corrupt copper unions via RICO Act statutes Celerity Jun 2020 #27
Racist thugs, violent terrorists, unaccountable tyrants dalton99a Jun 2020 #31
A police reform commission by the next administration is in order. nt oasis Jun 2020 #35
We have to remember that we are the police. If we elect racist thugs to public office they will Vinca Jun 2020 #36
Perhaps we need very well trained and impeccably honest state police... hunter Jun 2020 #37

oswaldactedalone

(3,490 posts)
1. Defunding or abolishing police departments
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 11:11 AM
Jun 2020

is a losing message. Cut this crap out and focus on the real issue of police reform. You want to hand Trump the election, keep pushing defunding or abolishing police.

Nature Man

(869 posts)
4. Concision and spareseness
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 11:19 AM
Jun 2020

with words are often more effective in communicating a message. Otherwise, the writing comes off heavy-handed and overly obvious. A little like a college freshman trying to write a technical manual.

MineralMan

(146,262 posts)
16. Thank you for your criticism.
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:08 PM
Jun 2020

I guess my 46 years of being a professional journalist were wasted. Who knew?

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
20. Well... you're new to this. Give it some time, I'm sure you'll improve.
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:22 PM
Jun 2020

Don't give up! Practice makes perfect!

Response to MineralMan (Reply #16)

Zambero

(8,962 posts)
5. Absolutely!
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 11:22 AM
Jun 2020

Loose talk is cheap and often self-defeating. Change and reform are not synonymous with eradication.

 

Dream Girl

(5,111 posts)
9. Agree this wills are the hell out of many. Way too nuanced.
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 11:42 AM
Jun 2020

I agree that funding should be cut but middle America would totally freak out.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
11. Police departments are overfunded.
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 11:44 AM
Jun 2020

So is the military. We should cut the budgets of both police and military - significantly.

maximusveritas

(2,915 posts)
6. Poll: Cut funding for police departments - 16% Support and 65% Oppose
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 11:24 AM
Jun 2020

That's even without getting into whether it is good policy, which it is not.
It is a reactionary extremist slogan, not a policy.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
25. The same polls are finding that 70% of people feel that Trump's
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:34 PM
Jun 2020

response to the crisis has been wrong. Americans are trying to search out the best way to fix the problems that exist. I know that some on our Left hate that approach, but it is what it is and to try to short-Citcuit it will lead to disaster for us.

Bayard

(22,011 posts)
7. I favor mass re-training
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 11:37 AM
Jun 2020

I keep saying, the bad apples are the ones that make the news. Weed those ones out. I believe that most cops are basically good cops, just trying to do their jobs and live with their conscience. I've met a number of good ones, and I've met a few very bad ones where I ended up getting injured.

I don't think the good guys are cheering what you see on TV right now. They're more likely to be ashamed, embarrassed. Like race, sex, politics, age, etc., you can't lump all in the same basket. We pride ourselves here on being open-minded, right?

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
22. As I was growing up, I came to understand that the surest way to give
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:31 PM
Jun 2020

more power to bullies was to undercut the kids that were trying to oppose then, however weakly.

There are cops that have spoken out on the wrongness of what was done to George Floyd. We don't support those people by taking a meat-axe approach to solving issue with policing. A smarter approach is to engage and discuss the issues with effective police officers, then go about fixing the problems in a surgical manner.

 

tonedevil

(3,022 posts)
38. If your police force has...
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 01:33 PM
Jun 2020

10 bad police and 1000 good police, but the good police let the bad police to do as they will your force has 1010 bad police. There is zero evidence that most police are good and the video evidence from the past week shows there are an overwhelming number of monsters in police uniforms. I don't think most current police are able to do the job.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
10. Bad Police Departments just
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 11:42 AM
Jun 2020

do not happen overnight. They are allowed to happen by the Politicians. To many Politicians did the Law and Order crap in order to push their personal agendas and now we have what we have.

Sad to say,there are Sworn Officers who really give a shit,but,there are a few who are just plain Bullies with Badges. Again,it is all about Vetting of Candidates. And proper funding for the Human part of Policing not the Military Part.

De-funding only works if one has a viable replacement on standby. Otherwise you have a total system break down.

It is all about responsible City Leaders looking at themselves in the mirror and do what is necessary to weed out the Bad Actors and keep their Law Enforcement Departments out of their personal Campaigns .

Yavin4

(35,423 posts)
14. How about a middle path? How about de-militarize the police? How about diverting some money to...
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:00 PM
Jun 2020

those educational and mental health programs that could prevent a lot of crimes.

Stop training them to be a para military group. Not every crime requires 4-8 armed police officers. There was no reason to call armed police officers because a store clerk got a bad $20 bill.

Higher better, smarter cops. Train

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
28. The same politicians that are sending money to police departments are
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:44 PM
Jun 2020

under-funding schools, and they DON'T see the problem with that.

If schools are allowed to continue to crumble. If public recreational facilities where kids can do activities under responsible adult supervision are eliminated, there is simply no way that cities will be able to hire enough police to avoid destruction - and regardless of how severe police violence becomes it won't stop the destruction, in fact it will accelerate it.

KentuckyWoman

(6,679 posts)
15. It worked in tiny town Kentucky.
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:06 PM
Jun 2020

The police force in my hometown in Kentucky - the sheriff was elected and he made all the decisions. The only accountability was at the polls. We had a guy spend a lifetime in the office. It was an open secret the guy was crooked as hell, but with a loyal squad of 6 officers and several office employees behind him, no one in the town was brave enough to go up against him.

The the shit hit the fan. He was having multiple affairs and when one of the husbands found out and objected, the police beat him just short of death.

Now everything from basic procedures to how money is spent, to new hires has to be approved by a joint citizens, government, business council - the positions are up for re-election every year and there is a 4 year max. Meeting are once a month on Saturday morning to make it easier for citizens to sit in and have a say.

The sheriff is now hired by the city and can make recommendations on his personnel but does not have the final say. The transition was not pretty - and it got rough again when the town merged services with the next over town. But the system has proven to work.

Corruption isn't limited to the big city. I would think tho, because of the sheer size of large metro forces, there would need to be an oversight group at the precinct or district level to make it effective.

MineralMan

(146,262 posts)
17. Thank you for that example.
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:12 PM
Jun 2020

Yes, it has worked in various places. Often, what has to happen is for a different agency, like the state police, to handle the job of law enforcement until the new system is organized and staffed.

The problem is that when an agency like that has been in existence for decades, it becomes almost impossible to change in major ways without tossing everything out and starting from scratch.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
18. Defunding is a horrible idea and if our side embraces that, we lose.
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:19 PM
Jun 2020

What we should go after is the militarization of police forces instead of more emphasis being put on community policing, having officers actively engaging with the public instead of riding around in their cruisers. Officers should be required to park and lock their cruisers and walk around talking to people, it is unglamorous work, but it pays massive dividends.

MineralMan

(146,262 posts)
23. Before any of that can be done, local officials need to
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:31 PM
Jun 2020

be able to manage the police departments effectively. They cannot at this time, in most cases. Police departments have become autonomous and are no longer under the control of elected officials in most places.

Regaining control of them will be very difficult, and might require drastic measures.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
29. You know, I really hate to follow his lead.
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 01:00 PM
Jun 2020

But maybe the solution is to fire the entire police department, like Reagan wrongly did for the Air Traffic Controllers. It would take planning, but firing all officers and rehiring only after psychological profiling is done may work. There would be resentment from the officers, but politicians would need to drive home a consistent message that being throughlessly violent with citizens is a thing of the past and if done now, will get them fired, without question after an investigation show them at fault.

My position on police officers is that they should have good salaries and benefits and certainly have state of the art protective equipment, but the message and the reality that their job is to calmly deal with citizens should be drilled in their heads daily, as should the message that if they violate that tenant, even if they are just covering up the actions of one officer, they will be thoroughly investigated and if found at fault, immediately fired, with why going into their personal record to make getting a cop job somewhere else difficult.

MineralMan

(146,262 posts)
30. Typically, it is actually very difficult to fire a police officer at all.
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 01:03 PM
Jun 2020

That's part of the problem.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
33. Part of the process would require voiding parts of civil service laws that protect bad apples.
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 01:09 PM
Jun 2020

I would do that and force the police union to take me to Court. If I lose, I would have delivered a message, if I win then I would reform the Deoartment and continue that process until it was effected and dealt with citizens properly.

Blue_Adept

(6,393 posts)
24. Break 'em up like a bad corporation
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:33 PM
Jun 2020

That's what the abolish is all about.

Break 'em up into the various parts that are needed. Remove them from places where they aren't needed. Make it properly functional.

Disband and abolish what exists. Rebuild what should exist.

There is no "fixing" that which is corrupt beyond measure.

Celerity

(43,135 posts)
27. A good start is to crush the corrupt copper unions via RICO Act statutes
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 12:39 PM
Jun 2020

The police unions are literally giant organised crime organisations. They run roughshod over the elected entities trying to fix things.

dalton99a

(81,406 posts)
31. Racist thugs, violent terrorists, unaccountable tyrants
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 01:04 PM
Jun 2020

is what they have become and what they represent to the communities they are supposed to serve (and where they get their paychecks from)


Vinca

(50,237 posts)
36. We have to remember that we are the police. If we elect racist thugs to public office they will
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 01:20 PM
Jun 2020

enact racist thug policies. If we stay home in a snit because our candidate isn't the nominee we are casting a vote for the racist thug. If we weasel out of jury duty because it's inconvenient, racist thug cops are not brought to justice. We have to stay engaged and active, but disbanding police departments is a foolish notion. I heard one activist on television talking about this and suggesting mediation between citizens would solve things. Uh huh. If I'm t-boned in an intersection by a drunk driver there is no way in hell I'm saying, "Oh, well" and heading over to his car to counsel him on the hazards of alcohol abuse. We are the police advisory boards, we elect the mayors and in some states the people who head police departments. It's clearly not working "as is," but the solution isn't to label every cop a murderous thug and call it a day.

hunter

(38,304 posts)
37. Perhaps we need very well trained and impeccably honest state police...
Sun Jun 7, 2020, 01:22 PM
Jun 2020

... who can temporarily step in whenever it's necessary to disband and a rebuild a rotten police or sheriffs department.

Many highly regarded democracies such as New Zealand simply don't have local police or sheriff departments and enjoy very low levels of institutional corruption.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Police

These might serve as a model.

It ought to be easy to fire rotten cops and disband entirely rotten police departments without bullshit threats of anarchy from corrupt, violent, and racist police or their unions.

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