Sorry but "Defund the Police" is just dumb messaging

[DIVINEprividence]

Who came up with this? Talk about handing the GOP a sledgehammer to pound us. You could just say comprehensive criminal justice reform or something like that. We don’t need stupid crap like this with what is at stake.

[OrlandoDem2]

1. We need to come out 100% against this idea.

We need to counter with “reform the police!”

[Hortensis]

65. It's a technical term that doesn't mean what it sounds like.

But, yes, whoever pushed it out there wasn't thinking. No doubt mindless hostility toward the police lead to its sudden popular use, and of course very mindful RW hostility toward the protesters and Democrats quickly weaponized it.

For anyone who hasn't looked it up, it means to shift resources and responsibilities to more progressive, positive ways of dealing with those problems police aren't best suited to handling. Like shifting the funds allocated to pay for arresting and jailing people who are clearly mentally ill (shifted to the police when funding was shut down for other ways to get them quickly off the streets) -- to agencies who'd deal with them more properly.

Back to finding wiser, more decent, more effective -- more liberal -- ways of addressing problems that shouldn't be criminalized.

[Bev54]

70. The Repubs love it and will be pinning the term

onto the dems, we need to get this dropped immediately

[Hortensis]

78. Better: Make lemonade from the attention and get people on board

with the promise of smart, progressive answers.

Many of the things we can do are already tried and true in the past, and we should be meeting every duty much better and much smarter. None of our problems are new but have grown worse again under conservative domination. And they're only getting meaner and funding more limited as they steal our tax dollars and transfer them to the wealthy.

[Bev54]

84. People don't have a long attention span

They will just accept it as stated so we all need, especially dems and media, to stop using it and come up with something better, that catches the essence of what they want to do.

[Hortensis]

88. We'll have to see what those on the front lines who've

devoted their lives to making things better do.

The Republicans will not be dropping this term, but I think it's well within our power to make sure only the most determinedly dishonest Trumpsters "believe" Democrats want to eliminate all police departments. Right up there with open borders that everyone can cross like strolling across the street and eating children's faces.

[herding cats]

156. I agree out of the box it was problematic

Biden reframed it well as reform, and right this moment people are listening and heard his words. A hat tip to Trump for making this about Biden. 🤣

In that respect, it's working.

[BrightKnight]

153. Frank Zappa - "Watch out where the huskies go. Don't you eat

that yellow snow.” I’m pretty sure that is not lemon juice.

[OrlandoDem2]

91. I know. Unfortunately most wont bother to try to understand the nuance.

Those 3 words are all that most will hear and Trump will bludgeon is with it.

[Hortensis]

97. Oh, I don't know. Defund ALL police? Only willfully

stupid people would "believe" Democrats are calling for that, and most of those would require a big dose of malice to carry it through.

Actually, something this silly and fake-controversial is more likely to make those who seldom pay attention curious enough to see what it's about. In fact, I saw some mention about something attracting the attention of those who habitually ignore politics this morning, don't remember what it was. It was besides the protests in over 700 cities across all 50 states, though.

[Oppaloopa]

118. I agree then it shouldn't be said.

[Hortensis]

144. :) Oop, with that lemon already out there, time to make lemonade.

Imo, people shouldn't waste time fearing this that they could use turning it to some use. I don't have a looking glass, but I still really do expect this to be a very miniscule lemon compared to the inbound we're going to be fighting off.

[NotHardly]

129. If you understood the concept it would be helpful...here, maybe this will help.

Sen. Kamala Harris (D-CA) clashed with Meghan McCain on “The View” Monday about the movement by protesters to “defund” police departments.
Harris said …it isn’t about abolishing police and moving to an anarchy system; it’s about “reimagining public safety.”
“So, Meghan, I think that a big part of this conversation really is about reimagining how we do public safety in America which I support which is this: we have confused the idea that to achieve safety, you put more cops on the street instead of understanding to achieve safe and healthy communities,” said Harris.
She explained with putting funds into drug treatment, mental health programs, social workers, education, and other programs are needed to pull police away from dealing with complicated situations.
“That’s how you achieve safe and healthy communities,” Harris continued. “So, we really need to understand and reimagine what and how we can actually make and help make communities safe because here’s the bottom line. If you contrast, you know, many communities, which have a heavy presence of police to middle and upper-middle-class suburbs in America, you will not see that presence of police. But, you will see families who have an income that allows them to get through the end of the month. You will see good public schools. You will see people who have access to health care and can afford it. You will see people who have jobs, and to this has to be the conversation which is, how are we going to be smart in achieving what should be our collective goal, which is that all communities are safe and knowing that safe communities are usually safe because they are healthy.”

[StClone]

165. What David Sirota Wrote

Our cities have siphoned money away from public goods like education and social services, and funneled the cash into ever-larger, ever-more-militarized police forces. It's time to reverse that.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/defund-police-protests-minneapolis-city-council

[Ex Lurker]

154. Hannity is hammering this hard right now nt

[StClone]

166. His on-screen Old White Guy rage and Mental Masturbation gets old

[LisaL]

2. Biden isn't proposing to defund the police.

Of course Trump, being Trump, is trying to link Biden to this message.

[Goodheart]

3. True.

[Ferrets are Cool]

4. I happen to agree. Change is necessary, but as usual, our messaging sucks.

[soothsayer]

17. Eh, it creates intrigue, whereas "reform" feels weak as water

The bait and switch in the term is that “reform” is what’s actually meant. But reform is a weenie word.

That’s the positive in this for me. It’s a conversation starter and attention getter. Just have to morph it into a better version of reform.

[themaguffin]

63. Reform is infinetely better than the word "defund"

[flibbitygiblets]

104. How about "repeal and replace"? Where have I heard that one before? /nt

[BlueLucy]

125. No it doesn't. It scares the shit out of people. nt

[Ferrets are Cool]

127. +1

[The Mouth]

111. Hell, look at the phrase "White Privilege"

Sure, it is a real thing, and anyone who thinks about it and delves into the meaning 'gets' what it is saying; once you know what the phrase MEANS it's pretty freking obvious.

*but* it arouses instantaneous, instinctive hostility in exactly the group that one might wish to communicate about it with. When you have to explain to someone what it *really* means and that , yes, even if their life was hard it would have been harder if they were black, etc, etc, your messaging needs work.


Any phrase that immediately antagonizes the people you want to communicate with is not a good on, no matter how accurate.

Another case of 'valid concept, suck-ass messaging'

[BlueLucy]

5. That is a sure way to get NOTHING

and instead makes matters worse for black folks.

[soothsayer]

6. Agreed, it's clumsy -- and inaccurate

Probably just a blip, though, since no one is actually saying to defund the police.

I don’t think regular people will be mislead.

Is it helpful? No. But I’m not too fussed about it.

[LisaL]

12. Heard it on that video where mayor of Minneapolis

was talking to protesters. Protesters demanded an answer from him if he supported defunding police. When he said he didn't, they made him leave. So seems to be going around among protesters as their demand.

[soothsayer]

33. Oh yeah, the walk of shame. He looked sad.

I’m sure it has “hit ‘em in the pocketbook” as its origins. It needs a bit of massaging though. And thinking through, by those using it.

[renate]

38. It made me sad just watching it

He seems to be a good guy and on the right side.

[soothsayer]

52. I know and he looked especially young there

I thought he might cry. I felt for him.

[LisaL]

82. I didn't realize that he was a mayor of Minneapolis at first.

I thought he looked like a teenager in that mask.

[stillcool]

7. WTF? I keep seeing this BS....

No one is saying "Defund the Police", except people on the internet and maybe on tv? Individual states are taking steps for their states. If a town feels it has to abolish a department...oh fucking well. Ask them. Or ask Trump. He knows all about abolishing departments.

[empedocles]

11. If you have to parse and explain, especially in an election year, - you lose.

[JonLP24]

21. Biden is leading by 11 points at least

Trump's approval ratings is below 40% and his approval rating on handling race relations is also below 40%.

I'm not even a big Biden fan but he is going to win the election unless Trump magically does a better job which I don't see happening.

[still_one]

45. Only if people vote

[milestogo]

46. Biden is leading by 7 points.

[JonLP24]

50. Thanks

My point is the latest controversies are hurting Trump. Biden's fundraising numbers also went way up.

[Cryptoad]

92. were the beef?

https://www.electoral-vote.com/

[still_one]

42. +++

[stillcool]

43. what history book is that in?

[empedocles]

81. History of Bernie 'explaining' - 'socialism'?

[stillcool]

99. Well, at least it wasn't a sign at protests...

about police brutality, which showed a lot of police brutality. Although..."defund the police" is far more difficult to explain than socialism

[empedocles]

132. Good. You seem 'stillcool'

[stillcool]

136. not today....

I got myself all in a dither over nothing. God, I hate when I do that. Got to give myself a time-out. But thank-you for being nice.

[empedocles]

137. You're good

[LanternWaste]

138. After this, therefor because of this, eh?

I love the smell of logical fallacies pretending to be wisdom. It smells like the self-sanctimony of someone trying to convince themselves how very clever they are.

[lame54]

27. Check out BLM street mural in DC...

They added defund the police in giant yellow letters

[stillcool]

39. Good for them. What else was written?

[Bradshaw3]

62. Is "don't vote" okay too?

A couple of weeks ago the Guardian had an interview with one of their founders saying he wasn't going to vote until systemic racism was ended. Think that's a good message too?

[stillcool]

66. whose message is it?

I have a message to.

[Bradshaw3]

77. Here it is

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/18/i-aint-voting-till-black-lives-matter-what-does-an-activists-radical-strategy-mean-for-2020

I answered your question. So is that message ok?

[stillcool]

94. I have no problem with that at all....Why do you?

From your link:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/18/i-aint-voting-till-black-lives-matter-what-does-an-activists-radical-strategy-mean-for-2020#maincontent

But when it comes down to this year’s election, Newsome is changing course. He has decided to vote, and encourage other black people to cast their ballots as well because he believes politicians are now working harder, and because his sister Chivona is running for a local seat in the Bronx

There’s just one caveat: “I’ll be encouraging blacks to vote the issues,” he said. “If I stand behind the issues and the person fails me, I can still sleep at night.”

[Bradshaw3]

105. I had a problem with his position on not voting to cause change

Or giving caveats to voting, as he does here. Since you wouldn't answer the question about not voting, I guess you may be ok with that. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face that will hurt POC even more, and just as dumb messaging as saying "defund the police". Police executive Cedric Alexander is on CNN agreeing, and saying a better term is "redirect resources" so that the police would still be there, just that some funds would go to community programs, etc. That is much, much better messaging.

We have a lot of low, low information, ignorant voters in this country who will not hear nuance, only short memes such as "defund the police" and they vote, in large numbers. That's why we have to be smart about messaging, or we will have four more years of drumpf.

[stillcool]

108. You have a problem with his past ideas..

which were steeped in black history...as the article said. You did not ask me a question about not voting. You asked me about "messages"...as in 'current' day. You are taking Mr. Newsome's past views and trying to apply it to protest signs...seen at massive protests about police brutality, where the whole world witnessed Police Brutality. You may care about ignorant voters in this country, and smart messaging, I don't. I care about living to, and through the next election. Millions of people protesting mean more to me than some uneducated yahoo's that wouldn't vote for a Democrat on any day. I mean really..."Defund the Police", is that frigging difficult. Eff them. If they voted in large numbers Republicans wouldn't have to lie cheat and steal to win elections.

[Bradshaw3]

117. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

In the one part of the article that you quoted, there was a CAVEAT. I have a problem with that caveat, because it means his supposedly past problems with voting could arise again - not t mention that is position up until this point was criniminally dumb. It's not that hard to understand: I have a problem with NOT VOTING. I also have a problem with people who supposedly want change but are ignorant of the electoral facts of this country. People who share your belief in not "caring" about messaging or voting are exactly why Democrats could lose in 2020. And we wil be going through the same thing again, only things will be worse. But it will be good for those who only live to complain, and not do the work needed for real change.

And, no "defund the police" is not difficult. It's stupid messaging, which is the point of this thread and not that difficult to understand, really.

Edit to add: Yes I did ask if you agreed with the not voting message. More than once, actually.

[stillcool]

130. I don't think I have a problem with reading comprehension...

but I do have a problem with your word..."criniminally". I don't know this person you so dislike. I never got his message. And I sure don't want anymore of yours. I got you loud and clear.

While Newsome is an outlier, though, he’s not alone in encouraging blacks to hold their votes for ransom. In 1924, in the shadow of strict loyalty to the Republican party following the American civil war, activist James Weldon Johnson asked, “How can the Negro expect any worthwhile consideration for his vote as long as politicians are always reasonably sure as how it will be cast?”

In 1965, months before the Democrats would secure the black vote for generations with the Voting Rights Act, Malcolm X implored blacks to treat their ballots like bullets and only use them when there was a target within reach.

And during the 2016 election, Fredrick C Harris, Columbia University’s director of the Center of African American Politics, and Eddie S Glaude, chairman of Princeton University’s department of African American studies, crafted the Blank-Out Campaign, which was introduced in a Time op-ed. It called for blacks to leave their presidential ballots blank in red states.

[LanternWaste]

139. So you're worried about non-collective, individual sentiments...

and pretending they're a concerning and objective sentiment within the body politic? It's an aberration... a bug on the windshield.



That dog ain't gonna hunt, regardless of any shrill hysterics or alleged concern it's counterproductive.

[themaguffin]

64. It's out there and it's not helpful

[stillcool]

69. Who is putting it 'out there'?

I love how this crap gets started.

[themaguffin]

74. What do you mean "who?" Have you not seen pictures from protests or have friends who

share items for it, or DIRECTLY speak to it in their own words.

Are you off the grid outside of this site...???

[stillcool]

85. I've seen all kinds of signs at protests...

and yes, I do have friends that directly speak of police brutality and what can be done. Am I off the grid? Apparently. Whatever grid you are on, that has you freaking out over what some signs say at protests. Global protests amounting to millions of people against police brutality. And you and yours want to freak out about signs that say "De-Fund the Police".

[themaguffin]

123. I'm not speaking about "signs" I'm talking about the election. Jesus Fucking Christ

[stillcool]

131. oh now see....I didn't get that

Your worried about "Defunding Police", because of an election in 5 months. It's too short of a time to explain what "Defunding" means. Okay, I'm still with the police brutalizing people in the street, covid-19, my social security. Little things like that. Please forgive me. My priorities are obviously all wrong

[themaguffin]

145. Nope. That's not what I said, but your immaturity is noted.

[LanternWaste]

140. Not to any real degree of concern... except by those pretending otherwise.

[budkin]

67. The entire notion of the "police" needs to be rethought

We need something completely different because what we have right now is not working.

[LeftInTX]

149. I got a text from some parents group asking me to support "defunding the police"

That was about a week or so ago.

I thought they were crazy and I was wondering why I had signed a petition of theirs' several weeks ago.

[Steelrolled]

159. Plenty of people are saying "defund the police"

including Minneapolis city council and protesters, but it has just become a slogan that has no definition. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows it doesn't mean abolish the police. But it is the kind of thing perfectly designed for social media.

[pwb]

8. Some people say that?

Sounds like right wing freak messaging.

We might say disarm, reduce, take away their stormtrooper outfits ?

Defund sounds Trump.

[lame54]

25. It was added to the dc blm mural...

In giant yellow letters

[LanternWaste]

142. Led Zeppelin logo was added too.

But it's gone unnoticed as well... except for people pretending for their own narratives it's of consequence.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. I agree; same for "disband." It's not what anyone intends, but

both words carry the connotation that there will be no police department, period. The true intent, of course, is to drastically reform and re-organize police departments so that they are demilitarized and so that functions other than dealing with serious crime are spun off to people better equipped to deal with non-criminal matters. Psychologists and social workers would deal with mentally ill, intoxicated or addicted people; police officers wouldn't be in schools arresting unruly six-year-olds; they wouldn't have to respond to calls about barking dogs or loud parties or other routine community problems. The point is to have a blanket public-safety department of some kind, of which traditional police officers would be only one part, and the emphasis would be on integrating with the community and managing community problems in order to help people who need it and to prevent problems from developing into criminal behavior. Funds would be allocated away from traditional policing to these other functions but nobody is advocating getting rid of the police altogether. This needs to be made clear, and other language should be used to do it.

[scarletwoman]

100. Great post!

[coti]

168. This really is a very good post. nt

[Catherine Vincent]

10. I agree

I heard it reported first coming out of Minnesota? Rightwingers are already wanting to privatize police. Then it will be worse than before.

[Grasswire2]

13. yes, very unfortunate and could affect the election itself.

I'm already worn out explaining it to various people.

If we have to explain the slogan because it is widely being misinterpreted, it's a LOSER.

[soothsayer]

44. I don't think "we" made the term

The organic movement happening did (correct me if I’m wrong).

Thusly, bigly, it is what it is but it’s not going to cost anyone the election. It’s not the “thing” drumpf is flinging at the wall that will stick, though he’ll try to get mileage out of it in his current “law and order” incarnation. It will fail.

[renate]

49. "If we have to explain the slogan it's a loser"

EXACTLY.

If experts say it’s the right thing to do, thats one thing, but please please please use a different phrase.

[safeinOhio]

95. Just like the Publicans call laws taking away the power of the workers by calling it

"Right to Work"laws. We could call it Right to Police laws and use it to take away current laws that protect cops.

[lame54]

14. Agreed

[gulliver]

15. It's good as an over-the-top threat (to then back off of).

[ecstatic]

16. That catch phrase was probably created by the GOP

and maybe latched on to by the more naive amongst us?

[empedocles]

18. . . . Or some angry type speechifying to a similiar angry audience.

[ecstatic]

28. Nope. I've been extremely angry but that doesn't

make my brain cells go out the window. This smells like more GOP / police shenanigans. Their initial plan, which included seeding riots and looting, didn't work; now they're trying to cloud the narrative with controversial phrases.

[empedocles]

79. Now 'the Hill' reports that 'Biden campaign opposes 'defund the police'

Unfortunate error. Already costly. More cost to come.

[Ferrets are Cool]

22. That was my first thought too. nt

[The Mouth]

113. Probably the same idiots who were the first to bite on the 'OK' sign

prank.

Sometimes we're a circular firing squad.

[Raine]

19. Definitely agree nt

[zak247]

20. STUPID IDEA

So, do we defund the black community in Chicago because it's littered with gang crime and violence? Or do we try to rid the community of gang crime and violence?

The idea of defunding whole police departments is a political disaster and objectively stupid.

If Trump weren't really a horror ideas like this would get the average GOP president easily elected.

The far left is playing with fire.

We have a great philosophical victory here, don't spoil it overreaching with stupid ideas like this.

[JonLP24]

26. The black community is already defunded

Have you heard of redlining?

[Neema]

23. The left really needs to employ good copywriters,

ones who really understand how to craft a message that leaves less room for confusion and interpretation. This is the latest bad example, but even Black Lives Matter could've avoided a lot of the stupid backlash that we're still fighting today by saying Black Lives Matter Too or Black Lives Also Matter, or something else that made it clear it was about creating equality and inclusion that has been missing.

Granted, there will always be people who are willfully ignorant and will twist any statement to fit their bigotry. But when even allies are confused by a message, you've got a problem, and I know LOTS of people on the left who are confused by "Defund the Police." And I don't blame them.

[JonLP24]

41. If people are still saying "all lives matter" they are showing they are either racist or they dont g

Don't get it.

It makes sense to me why BLM became the name after Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, Michael Brown, ad infinitum.

[Neema]

143. Yes of course now it's willful ignorance, but when

it was first coined, I knew a lot of progressive people who were confused by it initially. Once explained they were totally on board. But what I’m saying is if the message is clear from the get-go you don’t lose traction by having to repeatedly explain what you really mean.

[grumpyduck]

24. IMHO, it's a perfect phrase for the MSM to use

because it generates controversy and therefore more ad revenue.

And it's exactly what knee-jerkers will latch onto. Ergo, even more ad revenue.

[democrank]

29. It's a terrible message.

We’ll end up trying to defend it. Our message should be about reform. I’m guessing lots more folks would support reform over defunding. Apparently Joe Biden agrees.

[exboyfil]

30. Agreed

Biden and other Democratic leaders should come out more forcefully for what they want to see happen.

And it is more than the police. It is also local DAs and elected officials.

[gratuitous]

31. Thank you for your concern

[AnotherMother4Peace]

32. Police are important to a community. Just recently they helped rescue an older gentleman

in my neighborhood who decided to take a walk while his daughter took a quick trip to the store. She thought he was asleep. He has dementia and just started walking "to his old house a few miles away" (no such place).

This is definitely a right wing phrase intended to paint the Biden campaign as "radical left".

[genxlib]

34. Same shit happened with "Abolish ICE"

Except it was more defend-able then because ICE was a relatively new agency that came in a long line of agencies that had the same mission. In that case, it could have been abolished and replaced. Even so, the simplicity and finality of the idea leaves the impression that we are promoting lawlessness and anarchy.

Same thing here but even worse.

[dsp3000]

35. Moronic messaging by protesters. gives ammunition to right wingers. Maybe it was their idea ?

Kind of like the "walk away" movement was created by the russians? did this "defund the police" talk get started by right wingers posing as protesters? or is there real traction? Either way, Biden needs to come out against this talk.

[SunSeeker]

36. And what's even dumber is they don't even mean it.

They don't mean that we should eliminate police altogether. https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/many-protesters-push-to-defund-the-police-but-not-necessarily-eliminate-departments/ They mean structural criminal justice reform and transferring to social service agencies many of the duties that have been foisted on cops, like dealing with drug addicts, the homeless population and the mentally ill. That would leave a slimmed down police force that just dealt with crime and traffic violations.

The idea is great, the messaging is terrible. It's knda the opposite of Republicans, who have terrible ideas but slick messaging.

[bullwinkle428]

37. Yeah, I hope people are not disappointed when Joe Biden does

NOT choose to use this phrase as part of his campaign.

EDIT : Holy Shit - I'm listening to CNN, and literally 3 minutes after I made this initial reply, they reported that "Joe Biden does not believe in any effort to de-fund the police."

[soothsayer]

48. Ha, good

[soothsayer]

58. Fox just read the "Not Biden" statement

Re: this.

[backscatter712]

135. Yeah, Biden knows better than to use that as a slogan.

[tonedevil]

40. I haven't seen anything by the police...

in the last two weeks that makes me think they are a valuable addition to our society. They weren't just unhelpful they were actively causing mayhem and chaos. Why do we need them?

[mopinko]

47. welllll. i like it better than torch the police.

[lynintenn]

51. Whoever came up with this is a real dumbass.

Another talking point for the GOP. Most people want police in their neighborhoods and towns.

[stillcool]

54. any town can disband, defund, or do any damn thing they want..

with their piece of shit police departments. They even vote on it!!I have no issue with the police in my town. My issue is with idiots on the internet and tv, that have picked up a phrase so they can beat the shit out of it.

[Midnight Writer]

53. I have already heard my older friends shocked that Democrats want to "do away with police".

The proposals I have seen fall short of that, but, as stated above, in an election, if you are explaining, you are losing.

[UncleTomsEvilBrother]

55. One thing about the defund the police movement...

...is that it was created by people who are not normally politically engaged. For political purposes, the message needs to be nuanced, but protesters don't feel supported by DEMS or repugs, and there is no patience with the murdering of Black citizens.

If many on this board can remember, in public schools, there was P.E., art, and music. Some public schools don't have that anymore because those schools were "defunded." The school exist, but the act of "defunding" left the schools with the inability to pay for certain courses. That's what the "defund the police" movement seeks to do. In practice, most people on this board support the "defund the police" principles.

Again, I bet over 90% of those protesters would vote for the DEMS if DEMS are willing to get our hands dirty and actually engage instead of thinking these young people are watching the news as much as we are privileged to do.

[Coventina]

56. FTP & ACAB

[Captain Stern]

57. Agreed. It's a loser.

There's got to be a better way to say "reduce funding for police, and redirect that money to towards solving problems that would result in less policing being needed".

But 'defund police' sounds like saying 'let's not have police'.

It's a loser, and conservatives get to pound us with it over, and over.

[coti]

59. Completely agreed. There needs to be a simple reform message, but that ain't it.

"Defund" is bad enough messaging that it actually makes me wonder if it was put out by provocateurs.

[maxsolomon]

60. "De-escalate Policing"? Pretty vague.

"Cut the budget by 1/3"? Not inspiring.

"Reform the Police"? That's been underway for decades with no results.

"Require better training"?

"De-militarize the Police"? This is the one I like, but it's also vague.

[ProfessorGAC]

98. Your Last One Is My Favorite

I don't think it's as vague as you suggest.
I think it's salable, too. "Is buying the police a tank a good way to spend your tax dollars?"

[flibbitygiblets]

106. "Repeal and Replace the Police"? Borrow a page from the Rethug playbook?

De-militarize sounds the most sane, but 1/2 the country favors catchy over sane every time.

[BrightKnight]

151. Ground up rebuilding of some departments perhaps but

they need to manage the transition

[backscatter712]

61. My personal choice for slogans is "Police the police!"

Nice short bumper-sticker friendly slogan, turns the law-and-order schtick upon itself, and it's harder for the right-wing to come up with a suitable creative misinterpretation.

[MarcA]

96. As Slogans go That is a very good one. Concise and true. n/t

[peggysue2]

68. Dumb messaging and it will be weaponized

This is nothing more than a gift to Trump and his enablers. They will run with the slogan to paint the Democratic Party as 'easy on crime and violence.' They will use it to scare their nail-biting Fox viewers that criminal monsters are on the prowl, sleeping under their beds. AND NO POLICE!

Dumb and dumber. When your opponent is losing the fight, you don't hand him a hatchet. Extreme messaging will stall the necessary police reforms that were needed yesterday.

We need to be smarter to be effective.

[Fiendish Thingy]

71. Alternative: "Fully fund all community safety programs"

If it means cutting the police budget to hire more mental health and social workers, build more shelters, etc. so be it.

[budkin]

72. Biden campaign opposes calls to "defund the police"

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/501657-biden-campaign-opposes-calls-to-defund-the-police

[Tactical Peek]

73. Rightsize the police.

It fits the paradigm.



-

[TygrBright]

75. "Restructure Policing" makes more sense and covers more ground. n/t

[Efilroft Sul]

76. Accountability, accountability, accountability.

If you're not for police accountability, you're for police getting away with violence.

See the right-wing try to spin that.

[TNNurse]

80. George Takei suggested

"Demilitarize the police" instead.

[BobTheSubgenius]

83. I agree COMPLETELY!

That branding is going to cost supporters, especially ones recently 'converted' or not yet firmly convinced. It seems that progressives need a good 15-20% cushion to succeed with any given initiative.

[dreamland]

86. Already "Face of racism"Carlson is screaming out the lies of

...this message, by saying that the liberal Democratic party wants to get rid of the police force. The GOP is already highlighting the message of the loss of law and protection. This message has got to change.

[IronLionZion]

87. I like "Demilitarize the police"

they shouldn't be using military weapons and treating Americans like hostile enemy combatants.

They need all sorts of reforms on their methods. Some of the "standard operating procedures" are blatantly wrong and need to change.

[Cryptoad]

93. I like Reinvesting Police

[IronLionZion]

103. That sounds like you're moving bad officers around

[pnwmom]

89. One of the worst branding ideas ever. It's almost like whoever thought of it

wants us to lose, because it couldn't be much worse.

What are we supposed to replace it with? Is everyone supposed to be hiring their own private security? Or buying their own guns?

[Cryptoad]

90. Agreed,,,,, what the old saying

snatching defeat from the jaws of Victory.....

[DallasNE]

101. It Has All Of The Appeal Of Fingernails On A Chalkboard

But right now the police union is so powerful that there is no civilian control over police matters. The arrogance shows in the disrespect the police show to the civilian population that they are free to choke at will, mace at will or drive their cruisers into protestors without fear of consequences. Reform has been tried before - community policing is an example. But the police union is a huge barricade to the process. Any reform to have success must brunt the power of the police union. Only then can you hope to get a handle on the deplorable tactics we see on display on a daily basis. And, yes, racism in the ranks is a big part of it and that goes to police recruiting where they either fail to identify those personality traits or actually seek them out disguised as something else.

[GusBob]

102. The next mass shooting, which will happen, guess what they will blame?

There might be some loose cannon gun nut planning something in Minneapolis as I type

[MosheFeingold]

107. I was a cop 100 years ago

And the things cops now have to do are no policing.

When I was a NYC cop: (1) I was recruited out of the neighborhood; (2) I walked a beat (and we had a local precinct you could walk to and know all the cops); (3) I was a big guy who didn't need to resort to my pistol because I was a former street hoodlum (as in, I was well on my to being a Jewish mobster) back from WWII and could, in all probability, kick most people's asses; and (4) most importantly, our book of laws was about 100 pages long and it was all stuff people knew was illegal without looking.

Step one: delete all the stupid laws. Selling loose cigarettes? That "crime" got a guy killed because cops were forced to enforce that stupid law.

Step two: cops need to be just cops with a limited set of responsibilities. All the social work, mental health work, etc., needs to be in the hands of social workers and mental health workers.

Step three: is part of step one, but among the stupid laws that need to go are most drug laws. Unless that stuff makes you insane in a public place, legalize it. So tripping on LSD in the middle of the road is still a crime. Doing it in your house with Pink Floyd? Not our problem.

Do that and most of the trouble goes away.

[jorgevlorgan]

109. right now police are funded 100 times more tha any other service in

Most cities. LA cut their police budget by 100 to 150 million and it is still enormously more than any other service at more than a billion dollars or so. Defunding the police is accurate and necessary. Based on funding, cities are just e entirely police departments with scant funding for other services.

[Mr.Bill]

110. I agree.

Wingnut are all over the internet saying liberals want to get rid of all the police and let criminals run rampant through our neighborhoods. I'm sure this will be great for gun and ammo sales.

[rocktivity]

112. It's so dumb I think the Aniti-Antifa crowd came up with it

to make it look like the the Antifa crowd came up with it to use as a sledgehammer against us


rocktivity

[BrightKnight]

148. Some allies are running with it and it needs to stop.

[George II]

114. Kamala Harris' take on "defunding" from her appearance on The View this morning:

Link to tweet

[PatrickforO]

115. Yeah, defunding the police is a really bad idea.

Maybe 'Reorganize not Defund,' or something.

[Magoo48]

116. It's time to reallocate funds away from hardware and military style training,

and defunding the present setup should begin now so not another dime is wasted on training which is failing.

[AlexSFCA]

119. dems are terrible at marketing

gop says “repeal and replace” even if they mean repeal and not replace.

[Fla Dem]

120. Yes Reform, Modernize, Redefine , Enhance, Realign.

Last edited Tue Jun 9, 2020, 09:53 AM - Edit history (1)

[herding cats]

157. Which is the literal essence of what Biden said today.

We've got this message in spite of the current RW Spin.

Watch and see if the narrative doesn't change.

[Sugarcoated]

121. Agree

[Warpy]

122. Yes and no

As always, looking behind the slogan is essential. Unfortunately, Republicans are totally out of practice, so "drain the swamp" meant something a lot different to most of them than it did to Big Dummy.

In this case, it means putting their budget somewhere besides war equipment like tear gas, rubber bullets, pepper spray, and general Robocop no tolerance policing. Nobody expects cops to work for nothing and nobody sane wants to do away with them entirely. The slogan is about demilitarization, not elimination, with the money saved put into things that will make a difference, like mental health outreach.

"Demilitarize the cops" isn't catchy. "Let Cops Be Cops" might be a better one, they should never have been saddled with things like being the mental health care of last resort---it just doesn't work. They should also never have been tasked with being an occupying army because Nixon hated the Posse Comitatus Act as much as he hated hippies, students, and black people.

So maybe we need to turn the considerable DU brain trust toward coming up with a better slogan, one that doesn't scare white suburbanites as much. Or not.

[jaxexpat]

124. Disagree. No backing up when you're right. That's losing.

Defund is when people can't expect their paychecks if they refuse to perform their job. Nor their health care, retirement, legal representation, the whole "blue line" shmear. All the perks that come from the public dole.

I have defunded people for such things myself. They thought I'd fired them but they were misunderstanding. I was saving money and increasing productivity.

[xyoungblood]

126. Demilitarize the police is what they need to be saying, it just doesn't roll off of the tongue.

[jorgevlorgan]

133. I think defund is accurate. if you can slash 100 to 150 million from the LAPDs funding and still

Have it be at least 10 times more funded than any other service, addressing this as a funding problem is quite accurate.

[Politicub]

128. The people are not a monolith

There is no coordinator of messaging that crosses all groups in the coalition.

Unlike the right, which stews in its own media bubble that amplifies the same message, we believe people have the right to think for themselves.

Biden has said he is not in favor of defunding the police. Others think public-safety funds could be allocated in a way that encourages justice and equity rather than militaristic policing.

It’s a conversation that is long overdue.

[LanternWaste]

134. Sorry but "Defund the Police" isn't messaging from anyone or any group of note.

Thinking or pretending otherwise is "just dumb..." as well.

[BrightKnight]

150. I think MoveOn was running it on Facebook. Dumb nt

[theaocp]

141. Whether you agree with the phrase or not,

I recommend you be ready to explain (in simple terms) what it means. The alternative is gross.

If you must try on a different word, try "redefine" the police. Their job seems to lack a clear definition these days.

[Ron Green]

146. I'm glad the phrase is out there.

Maybe people will start to understand what an astonishing percentage of their city or county budget goes to pay for a LE organization that doesn’t do the job it should.

Lots of good ideas in this thread, the best of which are making sure an officer lives in the precinct and knows the neighborhood, and is not jacked up with military paraphernalia and attitude.

[BrightKnight]

147. Horrible and meaningless - There will be paid law enforcement

Last edited Mon Jun 8, 2020, 09:32 PM - Edit history (1)

I wonder who planted the seed.

[zak247]

152. Another radical thing

The so-called progressives are behind this stupid idea.

Why don't we go to Chicago and tell the poor there we want to take away your police for political dogma's sake.

Sure, and give Trump another hammer as the OP said.

I hope and pray we can get to election day ASAP cause certain forces are moving to help Trump in some strange way.

Or maybe they're just not too smart these lefty ideologues who have no political sense.

Not to mention this is a bad idea on its own.


ALL cops arent bad, its the training system in our country that indoctrinates racism. That can be trained away not by eliminating police.

Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater? That's like killing the baby

[The Mouth]

163. In a lot of cases, I have some sympathy for the police

In that you are screening and hiring people for the task of armed security, of eliminating 'bad guys', and then we expect them to be psych techs, social workers, counselors, the place where people with all sorts of problems actually interact with their government.

I mean if we hired cops the way they used to- recruit out of the neighborhood, have them walk a beat and be approachable (and responsible to) by the community they know and live in, we would get better results, but even then, we're asking too much of them considering the way we select and train them.


I work with and LOVE the Social Workers I'm tech support for, but many of them have master's degrees and huge amounts of empathy; a buddy was a psych tech, and also had to deal with restraining -without injuring - people undergoing psychological trauma. Cops aren't selected, hired, or trained to do those functions and yet we send them on to streets they don't really know, in neighborhoods they don't live in, with a 'good guy/bad guy' mindset and expect them to deal with the sorts of people that are experiencing trauma themselves. Not excusing the sociopaths, racists, and/or assholes, but even the best intentioned ones aren't trained for what we're asking them to actually do.

[BadGimp]

155. 100% Agree

This is a Bad Political Talking Point Hall Of Fame candidate if I ever saw one.

[NNadir]

158. A better rallying cry would be "Fund social workers!"

[roamer65]

160. Police the police.

Reform and oversight.

[Sloumeau]

161. I completely agree.

In my personal opionion, "Defund The Police" is one of the worst examples of political messaging that I have heard in the past 50 years. "Disband The Police" seems equally bad. Some of the following phrases might be better:

"Replace The Police"
"Improve The Police"
"Reform The Police"
"Radically Reform The Police"
"Fix The Police"
"Police The Police"
"Revolutionize The Police"
"Upgrade The Police"
"Humanize The Police"
"Demilitarize The Police"

[Wednesdays]

162. "Defund the Police" is a slogan created by a right-wing think tank

The bickering on this thread alone is a testament to its success.

[zentrum]

164. "Make The Police Better". How

…about that?

It means all the things "Defund" means—but the Repugs could not come out against it as easily.

"Make the Police Better" means more social workers to cover the social work calls, transparency of records, diversity hiring at the top, zero-tolerance for body cam de-activation, etc etc etc.

[Nitram]

167. I agree. I suspect some more excited protestors used the phrase, and did indeed intend it to mean

disbanding the police. Cooler heads and smarter people then crafted an alternative narrative that made complete sense: reduce police funding to fund programs that can handle tasks the police have been charged with but are not trained to handle, such as dealing with the mentally ill and patrolling schools. They could also be used for education, public health, housing, and youth services that would reduce crime and remove incentives for crime. This is just my take, as I have no idea what the chronology of this really was. I do, however, think it was a stupid gift to the right.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

169. Agree 100% - it needs to be about changing and reforming - not dismantling and de-funding

DE - MILITARIZE: Start making cops look and act more like they are policing the community and not invading it.
GET 'EM OUT OF THEIR CARS: More police need to walk and bike neighborhoods and meet the people they are policing.
DE - CRIMINALIZE: Let's look harder at what laws don't make sense to in involve police
DE-ESCALATE: Let's train the police intensely on containing and diffusing situations. Michael Brown, George Floyd, and Eric Garner did nothing worthy of being killed over.
TIE FINES TO INCOME: A $150 speeding ticket is a serious burden on a family making $40K. For a hedge-fund manager, it's 15 minutes' income. Make the punishment not only fit the crime but fit the criminal.
POLICE THE POLICE: We need standards that should be enforced across the board. We need community groups or boards who hear police complaints. We need procedures for automatically taking police misconduct cases to Special Prosecutors not tied to the DA/SA office, and circumstances where going to a grand jury becomes mandatory.
SUPPORt THE POLICE: Make sure police and their families are well paid enough to attract quality applicants. Actively encourage recruiting a force that mirrors the community. Make sure that Police have psychological and social resources they can turn to so that we can prevent suicide; head off spousal abuse; preserve marriages and families.

What we don't want: No police (anarchy would suck, and eventually gangs would fill the vacuum), Private police (an invitation to extortion), completely disarmed police (as long as we don't modify the 2nd Amendment, some police will need to be armed).