Thanks to the 2nd Amendment and the courts, everyone can own all the AK-47's they want.

[pnwmom]

So of course we don't need police anymore. Sure, let's get rid of them. Let the people with the guns police themselves.

[Shermann]

1. Louisville man defends downtown business from vandals

This guy defended his shop from looters with an AR-15

You can make a case that he wouldn't have been able to defend his property against a mob with a pistol and/or only 10 rounds.

Similar situations occurred during the LA riots, but this is current events. We have to be a little careful with the gun control issue here during a pandemic.

[pnwmom]

2. The gun might be useful as a threat, but you can't shoot someone just to protect your STUFF.

The man could be charged with murder if he shot to death someone who was only looting.

[Shermann]

4. Kentucky is a Castle Doctrine state and has a "stand your ground" law

Cases involving the justifiable use of deadly force can often be complicated. Most states don't allow deadly force to be used to defend property per se. That said, he was not engaged in an unlawful activity and had a right to be there at his business. If he used deadly force against an individual or crowd smashing his windows and burglarizing while he was inside, I like his chances in court. It would seem reasonable to most jurors that he feared for life or limb.

[pnwmom]

6. I don't see that it would apply in the case of shooting someone trying to loot your business.

https://www.kfvs12.com/story/29289570/legal-expert-weighs-in-on-ky-self-defense-right/

MCCRACKEN COUNTY, KY (KFVS) - out of Reidland, Kentucky where a man told deputies he shot and killed a man that was allegedly stealing from his storage unit has raised questions about what rights a person has to defend themselves.

Jeffrey Conrad, 49, is being held at the McCracken County, Ky. jail on a $500,000 bond for one charge of capital murder for allegedly shooting Garlon Cox, 30, that was stealing from Conrad's Reidland, Ky. storage unit, according to the McCracken County Sheriff Jon Hayden.

SNIP

A special 12-person grand jury was convened June 9 that reviewed evidence from McCracken County Sheriff's detectives that found Conrad fired rounds from his .45 caliber pistol at Cox as he was attempting to flea with Conrad's belongings, according to Hayden.

The grand jury indicted Conrad and charged him with one count of capital murder, Hayden said.

http://www.westkentuckystar.com/News/Local-Regional/McCracken-County/Jury-Finds-Conrad-Guilty-of-Manslaughter.aspx

Jeffrey Conrad has been sentenced to 7-1/2 years in prison, after the jury returned a guilty verdict on a lesser charge of 2nd degree manslaughter.

[Shermann]

9. Those are clear cut cases where fear of life or limb wouldn't reasonably be expected

But being inside a business you own with a mob outside shouting verbal threats at the owner, armed with bricks which are being thrown, entering the premises illegally and burglarizing? With a questionable emergency response situation going on?

Like I said these cases are complex, but you can reasonably expect fear of life or limb in that case. So this is a false equivalence.

If he were to blindly fire into the crowd, he'd have problems. I wouldn't want to ever be in his position, but I am a trained CWP holder and believe I could make the right legal determination if I were.

[pnwmom]

10. Then hopefully you carry insurance that would cover your attorney bills

for any criminal charges, or for a wrongful death civil suit (where the burden of proof is 51%).

[Shermann]

11. Are you a salesperson for U.S. LawShield?

That's basically their sales pitch.

https://lp.uslawshield.com/

[pnwmom]

13. LOL. I should have known someone would try to make even more profit off

of the fact that there are millions of assault rifles in the hands of individuals.

[Shermann]

15. This guy might have needed their services if he fired rounds

What's unique about this case is that he knowingly put himself in the dangerous situation. While it wouldn't rise to the level of him being the aggressor, or even be perceived as questionable, it would still add to the complexity of the case.

It would be interesting (strictly from a legal perspective) if there were a justified shooting claim that came out of this.

[hunter]

34. Yeah, his shop is so much more important than a life...

Just another asshole with a gun.

The U.S.A. reeks of them.

[Shermann]

36. So you can defend your home, but not your business?

I think you are equivocating.

[hunter]

39. Jesus. If I was the sort to shoot scary strangers in my home...

I always figure if the dogs and Spot are okay with them they're okay by me. If the dogs and Spot are not okay with them, still, not my problem. Usually they run away.

The most we ever lost was a VCR. That was back when they VCRs were still expensive. I was still making payments to Sears, damn it!

When my kids were teens I never quite knew if that big Black or Mexican kid I'd stumbled upon in the middle of the night was invited or not.

Yeah, we were that house, the one where our kids and their friends felt safe, at any hour.

My parents are artists. They had day jobs to support their art. I grew up in a very crowded house where anyone could be sleeping on the floor or met waiting to use the bathroom at two in the morning. It might be a gravelly voiced Lesbian biker stinking of cigarettes and whiskey. Or my grandma. Hard to tell in the dark and not much difference. My grandma was meaner and more dangerous with a knife, if not her words.

The most irritating thing to me was when some of the less socially aware guests got up before I did and ate the last of the dry milk and cornflakes I'd been looking forward to.

Anyone who relies upon a gun for self defense is a fool.

[Amishman]

41. its legal to shoot looters inside your store in most states

happened several times with the recent riots, I know at least once in Philly and they have already decided on no charges. He shot two, one died.

[Kaleva]

3. A paint ball gun that looks like an AR-15 would have been just as effective in this situation.

The video shows that one doesn't always need any ammo.

[Shermann]

5. Sure if you want to be "That Guy"

"That Guy" has the fake security system signs in his yard.

"That Guy" has the Beware of Dog sign in his yard and no dog.

"That Guy" speaks loudly and carries no stick.

I'm not "That Guy".

[Kaleva]

7. Statistics show that being "That Guy" is very effective.

The odds of someone needing a gun that has more then 1 round in it is almost zilch. Yet people spend hundreds or even thousands in preparation of an event that is statically very remote.

[Shermann]

14. Not everything is a numbers game

An analogy that a non-gunner might find helpful would be buying a fireproof safe for important documents.

The chances of having a catastrophic fire and having those important documents preserved through it is low. It's probably in the same ballpark as being the victim of a crime.

And yet, there is value to having that safe. You get a sense of wellbeing, of security, merely by having it.

[Kaleva]

35. I don't begrudge anyone for having a gun for self/home defense

I have a revolver and I'm carrying it right now. I take it out of the gun safe beneath my bed when I get up in the morning and keep it on me or within easy reach all day when home until go go to bed at night when I place it back into the gun safe under my bed.

If i need to leave the property, I'll secure the revolver in the gun safe but if I don't have the time to do so, I'll take it with me and I have a valid state CPL to cover those rare occasions.

It's, I believe, adequate for me. I have spent far more money on smoke detectors, CO2 detectors, fire extinguishers, emergency fire escape ladders, exterior lighting, reinforcing the exterior doors and master bedroom door (I'm probably the only person in the county with a deadbolt on the master bedroom door).

[hunter]

12. I'm chattel of a fucking dragon.

I find partially digested guns in Spot's poop.

I don't post my ugly gun stories on DU.

I don't let anyone I'd care to shoot live in my head.

Gun fetishes are disgusting.

[Shermann]

16. Ugly as it may be...

the owners defending their shops with assault rifles during the LA riots was the strongest counter-argument to an assault rifle ban that the NRA ever had. And now there are more current examples. So this won't be the last we see of these videos if we push gun control hard this year. To me it sounds like a losing issue for the party to prioritize right now.

[JonLP24]

18. You should watch a documentary on the LA Riots

One of the rooftop shooters shot someone by mistake. He was actually a shop owner.

[Shermann]

23. Link?

I'm not sure what difference it makes, it's hard to argue that the rifles aren't needed for self-defense in both of these crises.

The NRA is going to win this one in 2020 as long as we're retorting with vague anecdotes and poems about dragon poop.

[hunter]

24. I am not the Democratic Party.

But thanks for your concern.

I am a radical leftist and environmental extremist. An evolutionary biologist by natural inclination and some formal training.

Gun fetishes are disgusting.

And, yeah, I have killed, prepped, and cooked animals for my dinner, though I'm mostly vegetarian lately, hoping to reduce my environmental footprint even as that makes me a hypocrite, since I have big dogs who eat Kirkland kibble from Costco.

I'm not unfamiliar with guns.

The dragon feeds self.

I know ugly.

My own politics are practical. This Democratic Party is closer to where I want to be than any of the alternatives.

I have two bottles of champagne chilling in my fridge, one for when Trump leaves office, one for when he's dead.

Wouldn't upset me much to drink both the same day.

[Shermann]

25. Hunting would be a pragmatic use of firearms

...as would defending a business from a mob.

So who has the "gun fetish" exactly? None of the examples in this thread, so you seem to be off-topic.

[hunter]

8. Sigh. In his own own "real life adventure" he had to bring out the guns.

That's a fail in my shop.

[Captain Stern]

26. Good point.

That's why most armed robbers just carry paint ball guns.

[Kaleva]

27. Dillinger allegedly used a wooden gun to escape from the Crown Point jail.

As far as I know, No gun owning DUer has expended more then 1 bullet shooting anyone in self defense this year. Or last or the year before that an so on.

[Shermann]

31. Any Walking Dead fans?

Rosita conspired with Eugene to shoot Neegan, and they manufactured a single bullet to do it. She didn't foresee the scenario where a second shot might be necessary. See how that turns out:

[JonLP24]

17. I'm not sure why you are conflating two different issues

Minneapolis Is Not the First City to Disband Its Police Department—the Lessons Learned From Camden, New Jersey





At a rally on Sunday, Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender said the council was committed to ending the city's "toxic relationship" with the Minneapolis Police Department.

Disbanding an entire police department isn't unheard of—the city of Camden, New Jersey did it in 2013 and as a result, saw an improvement in the relationship between police and residents as well as a dramatic drop in violent crime.


Scott Thomson, Camden's police chief until last year, oversaw the city's shift to community policing around eight years ago.

At the time, Camden had become synonymous with crime and was considered among the deadliest cities in the U.S. After a rise in homicides in 2012, the city had wanted more officers patrolling the streets, but couldn't afford to hire them, according to Bloomberg.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/minneapolis-not-first-disband-police-department-1509327%3famp=1

I also support repealing the 2nd amendment but I know that position is unpopular as well.

[JonLP24]

20. I don't know what do about the fact we have the highest rate of gun homicides for a developed

Country. You are good with AR 15s. So are mass shooters & hate groups.

[pnwmom]

29. Because there are people insisting we don't NEED police and they are serious

about defunding and dismantling -- not just reforming.

I talked to one person here who said if a woman is raped she doesn't need the police -- she needs to get mental health counseling.

[JonLP24]

32. Police actually do a horrible job investigating rape

Less than 1% of rapes result in felony convictions. There are backlogs of untested rape kits.

This isn't an isolated incident

Upon Further Review: Inside the Police Failure to Stop Darren Sharper’s Rape Spree

(Snip)

News of the Sept. 23, 2013 incident quickly shot up the ranks. New Orleans' police superintendent and top prosecutor were briefed. In the weeks that followed, police records show that Williams gathered evidence. He got a warrant to collect a sample of Sharper's DNA. It matched a swab taken from the woman's body. Witnesses told of seeing Sharper with the intoxicated woman at a club, and later at his condo. Video footage confirmed Sharper and the woman had been together.

It wasn't enough for the district attorney's office. This was a "heater" — police shorthand for a high profile case. Prosecutors were hesitant to move too quickly on a local football hero with deep pockets and savvy lawyers, according to two individuals with knowledge of the investigation. They held off on an arrest warrant.

"If his name was John Brown, he would have been in jail," one criminal justice official with knowledge of the case said. "If a woman says, 'He's the guy that raped me,' and you have corroborating evidence to show they were together and she went to the hospital and she can identify him, that guy goes to jail."

Sharper did not — and continued an unchecked crime spree that ended only with his arrest in Los Angeles last year after sexually assaulting four women in 24 hours. In March, Sharper owned up to his savagery. He agreed to plead guilty or no contest to raping or attempting to rape nine women in four states. The pending deal allows his possible release after serving half of a 20-year sentence — a strikingly light punishment that has drawn widespread criticism.

https://www.propublica.org/article/police-fail-stop-nfl-darren-sharper-rape-spree

This is an example of a good investigation but the initial victim was badgered by local police over minor inconsistencies until she claimed they made it up and then charged her with false report. Investigators in another jurisdiction caught a serial rapist and he had photos so it turned out she was telling the truth.

https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story

You have to read deep to find it but the FBI did an investigation of the Baltimore Police Department and among the findings they did a poor job of investigating rape. Cops are tough on crime on some crimes but not others like sexual assault or rape.


Baltimore Police Department - Findings Report - August 10, 2016 - Department of Justice PDF

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.justice.gov/crt/file/883296/download&ved=2ahUKEwi2htfruvPpAhWEJjQIHZTAAYIQFjAAegQIAhAC&usg=AOvVaw2cjPRpJ4TnSMCwC6jEanE-&cshid=1591662050177

Also Sheriff Joe is an example tough on immigration but did a poor job of investigating rape. They had backlogs of untested rape kits as well.

[pnwmom]

38. The relevant number is how many prosecutions result in convictions.

Just because most women don't press charges doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to make charges and have them investigated and prosecuted.

[JonLP24]

40. The examples I post are when they do press charges

You are right most people don't report.

Reforming the police can include them doing a better job on rape and sexual assault investigations.

[maxsolomon]

22. "Disband" and "Defund" aren't binary. It doesn't mean you wind up with no cops.

Did you see the story out of Omaha last week?

Bar owner and his Dad brandishing pistols picked a fight with protestors, got more than they bargained for, killed one, & walked away scot free.

The law is on the side of white people with guns. Always has been.

[pnwmom]

28. Why use terms that are clearly misleading? That won't help us win an election. n/t

[maxsolomon]

30. Take it up with BLM, I guess. They're not the Dem Party.

I had to ask my 30-year old stepdaughter about what it meant, too.

Is Biden using the term?

[JonLP24]

33. No Biden came out against it today

[Polybius]

37. Not everyone

There is no possible way for me to legally buy one in NYC.