When activists say defund the police they literally mean it

[janterry]

There are certainly a diversity of opinions out there about policing in general and about 'defunding' the police. But make no mistake, some of the defund the police activists mean a world with NO police.

Charlene Carruthers of the Movement for Black Lives

Well, I understand that the process to living in a society where safety exists beyond policing will take a very — it'll take time. It won't happen overnight.

So, what I would like to see are local governments and also local police departments commit to a process in which we move essential safety services from the power and control of police departments into our communities.

That means crisis response. And that also means what — how we deal with violence, conflict and harm. It means that actually, eventually, the police are not the people who intervene or show up in instances of crisis, conflict, harm, or violence, but, in fact, it's a community-based response that's outside of systems of policing, prisons and jails.

and:
I do not believe that we have — we should have a partnership between community and the police in order to deal with conflict, harm and violence in our communities. What — that power, those decisions and that role, including the money, needs to actually be completely shifted, and not simply into social service agencies, because we also know and understand that many social service agencies act in proxy to the police department across the country.

She was interviewed on PBS Newshour

here:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/2-views-on-the-future-of-american-policing

FWIW
I do not support this at all. As a theory, it sounds nice - in practice?

[Blues Heron]

1. two jurisdictions where the police should have no place: drugs and mental health

Absurd that we let these aggressive violent defectives interact with our most vulnerable citizens.

[janterry]

3. There is a role for the police as back up in some emergency calls

Sure, if I want to section someone, I'd rather someone go out to talk calmly and reassuringly to the person. But I've had clients prepared to do violence-often to themselves.

As a MSW, I don't want to just go out by myself and 'talk' someone down who is potentially dangerous to themselves or others.

As you probably know, the police also go in a supportive role with social workers who work with DCF when they have to remove children. I think this is necessary.

Yes, there are many mistakes. Yes, there should be a patient, calm intervention (I've known of cases where the police blew things up). But I also know of instances where having the police calmed things down. And, ultimately, as a social worker - I don't want to go into a home - where things might get dangerous - without back up.

I remember, once, when I was just a case manager, going into a teenagers home and he was sitting next to me (slightly psychotic) and 'stabbing at the couch with a screwdriver). He didn't harm me. But I knew, in that moment, that if he wanted to - I would be dead.

There was nothing in my (extensive!) physical management training that could protect me. And this was NOT a case of coercion. I was just offering support. (He was angry at the neighbors, not me. But I was shaking when I left).

My supervisor, by the way, was attacked by a client in his home (she was not attempting anything more than support - we did not work for children and families, but for the department of mental health. We had no ability to coerce anything. The client was psychotic and became dangerous. Thankfully, he had family there who DID call the police. My supervisor was hospitalized, but recovered.

[Blues Heron]

7. if well trained and no guns yes

not gun totin' street cops though , no. Too much killing from those. I think we should disarm most cops actually.

[The Magistrate]

2. 'Police The Police!' Is By Far The Better Slogan, Sir

It needs no explanation, and accurately reflects the sentiments of the mass of protesters in the streets, and of those who support them from their homes.

If left academics and activists were any good at framing issues, we would be in a very different political reality than we are. To say these generally have a tin ear far overstates their abilities in the agit-prop line.


"We should have had Socialism long since were it not for the Socialists."

[Hortensis]

14. Agree. Used for its own clear meaning. Not to

replace the call for redirecting funding to social programs that "defunding" actually means. I haven't heard a slogan as short and clear as "police the police" for that yet.

[The Magistrate]

17. Picked Up From Mr. Backscatter712 Here, Ma'am

He put it up yesterday, and I have shamelessly adopted it.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213564482

[Hortensis]

22. Police the police is very strong and can resonate with

most people across the political spectrum, all but the strongest authoritarians. So let's hope all those who don't know what defunding means switch to it.

We need a good, short slogan for the real meaning of "defunding," one that also states "to redistribute functions police shouldn't be doing, along with the funding for them, to social agencies" in 3 or 4 words. Since it's intrinsically progressive and means spending money and doesn't mean spiting the police, it won't have quite as broad appeal.

[The Magistrate]

27. Open It Up With The Useful Slogan, Ma'am

Then just about anything can be roped in as something needed to 'police the police'. Some of that can even be presented as helping police, freeing them from functions they cannot perform well or safely, and letting them concentrate on preventing and solving crimes.

[Hortensis]

31. Sure.

[janterry]

5. The rich would just pay for private policing

and the poor - well.

[octoberlib]

11. This is what happened in Honduras. Abolished police forces so the rich

and corporations hired mercenaries for protection and crime cartels took over.

[Liberal In Texas]

8. All the Dems better get on top of this and get the proper spin on police reform.

Reform is one thing, but this phrase is already being used by the trumparty to scare the begeezes out of the middle class and to puff up the Siberian Candidate as the law and order candidate.

[janterry]

37. It scares ME

I live in a very liberal town in Vermont. There is already talk by the younger folks - that this is a good idea. One person posted on our Facebook page (someone who just moved to town, mind you!) that this WILL happen.

This is just wrong

[agingdem]

9. To paraphrase Inigo Montoya ..defund .

I don’t think it means what they think it means unless those calling for defunding mean prevent from receiving funds.. dissolving whole police department.. lousy idea..redirect portions of the police budget towards community awareness, employ professional therapists and crisis counselors who can assess the damage in real time ..and as for police unions .. make them fiscally responsible for each and every officer that does harm .. fire them.. no second chances .. no rehiring.. deny them their pensions ..

[Hortensis]

10. So? Fools are always with us. Progress has always been the duty

and the achievement of the competent.

[janterry]

25. Well said

though(?) this was aired on PBS. So, the fools are getting a bit of press

[Hortensis]

28. Always. "If it bleeds it leads."

A lot of those will mature into more sensible attitudes, of course, and some not. They can all have documentation of their current efforts to show their children if they wish though.

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. For the conceivable future we will need some kind of potentially armed "policing" force

We live in an unstable world. There literally are terrorists who try to maim and murder. Some belong to international extremist groups, others are domestic terrorists, almost always ideologically Right Wing.

And then there are the shooters, psychologically sick and broken men (in almost all cases) who are moved to slaughter those around them. School shooters, church shooters, crowd shooters, work place shooters etc.

And then there are the more routine psychopaths; serial killers, and more garden variety murderers and rapists.

The legitimate scope of policing needs to be significantly reduced. Police are now dispatched to handle problems that need to be dealt with differently The control structure of the policing that remains needs to be redesigned. Current police culture must be uprooted and replaced with one centered around service to the community. Police need to reflect the communities they serve and live in the communities they serve. So many changes needed, but we still need some cadre of armed first responders.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

15. People, particularly activists, generally say what they mean.

I wasn't saying "defund the police." I was saying "abolish the police." It's a transformative idea that is less about the absence of police and more about the presence of systems that prevent needing police.

[janterry]

18. I didn't see your post (so this wasn't in response)

I would, of course, take you at your word

[WhiskeyGrinder]

20. Oh it wasn't "a post." I'm just on a lot of threads talking about abolition, because I think it's a

good idea.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

23. Here's the thing -- it's not the police's job to prevent crime. They're not great at it and it

requires a level of community care that they are neither trained for nor get into the career to do. We ask the police to be the very last backstop of harm reduction, and as a system it's disproportionately harsh in the vast majority of cases, because it relies on trauma to work.

We generally know why people commit crimes; they have needs that have not been met. We have the resources to meet those needs -- particularly if we're not paying to punish people whose needs were not met. The abolitionist model does not shut off the lights at the precinct and send cops home -- getting people to consider it is the easiest part. In Minneapolis, we'll see where the real work begins -- separating the duties cops really don't need to do and funding support systems for crisis response in those areas; building stronger communities that can keep themselves safe; overhauling health care, education, social services and other systems to dismantle the systemic racism and oppression in them as they serve the community more effectively, etc.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

32. The crime bill did not reduce crime. The reduction in violent crime was already happening

before that bill passed, and most experts understand now that crime was dropping because of an improving economy, lower unemployment and an aging population. It certainly increased incarceration, though!

What do you think cops learn in that 700 hours of training?

How to view everything as a threat first, that there is a thin veneer of civilization that must be protected at all costs, and that order is more important than laws or rights. Oh, and how to drive a fast car.

Like I said - we should put every cop on paid leave for 6 months/to a year - see how it goes.

That's not the abolitionist mode; that is a different idea.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

34. Many years ago, I worked with an organization that had regular meetings with a state standards

and training board that focused on IPV. It was certainly eye-opening.

And don’t forget the firearms part!

I never do!

[quickesst]

16. what the hell?

"It means that actually, eventually, the police are not the people who intervene or show up in instances of crisis, conflict, harm, or violence, but, in fact, it's a community-based response that's outside of systems of policing, prisons and jails."


If I am a mental health worker or a drug counselor, you can bet your sweet ass that I am not walking into that situation until I know that I will be safe, and that there are no gun or knife wielding persons who will pose a threat to me or other citizens. Take a wild guess as to who is going to ensure my safety. That is where things need to change. At that point, if the situation is safely under control, the appropriate responders should take charge, and the police should withdraw having carried out their duty to ensure a safe situation. Not having them show up at all is only going to get innocent people killed.

[janterry]

19. I totally agree

and I've been in that situation

[quickesst]

26. Being the first to enter an unknown situation....

.... armed with a dose of Narcan, Bible, or a mental health manual just doesn't seem like the smart thing to do. Entering that situation assured that the situation is safe would be much better. Thanks for the reply janterry.

[quickesst]

30. kind of amazing....

.... that so much of the obvious sorely lacks in the use of logic and common sense.

[quaint]

36. Campaign Zero

Many activists support police reform, including defunding militarization. Campaign Zero