Why Do Police 'Shoot To Kill'? Why Aren't They Instructed To....

[global1]

'shoot to maim' like in his legs so one can't run away.

Not only is this guy in Atlanta dead - but the police involved just brought down a world of hurt on themselves for killing him.

[Renew Deal]

1. I'm not convinced that they are that skilled

Also, there really is only one purpose for a gun.

[RKP5637]

2. K&R!!! n/t

[Nature Man]

38. They are NOT that skilled

or that smart

They are NOT heroes. They are the opposite. All the pollyanna PR in the world can't change a piece of shit into a flower.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. They are not instructed to shoot to maim, and shooting to maim is even more dangerous

than shooting to kill. You can shoot out a knee and have a guy bleed to death.

[global1]

5. Oh OK - Just Kill'm (sarcasm - can you tell?)...nt

[Renew Deal]

7. That reminds me of when the cops shot up the neighborhood outside the Empire State Building

https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html

[dawg day]

9. In my town, the SWAT team came out to arrest a guy a few years ago-

He was armed and holed up in an SUV in the middle of a neighborhood.

They fired 40 shots and hit mailboxes and houses and other cars... but didn't hit the SUV. It would have been funny if it hadn't been so scary for the residents.
But they really didn't seem very well-trained.

[dgauss]

15. Shooting to maim is more dangerous?

Because someone could bleed to death if they got shot in the knee?

Ok, out of concern for the target, better play it safe and just shoot them in the chest.

[dgauss]

16. Wait, that was sarcasm, right? My bad.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

36. I'm not being sarcastic -- shooting to maim is more dangerous because it's much more

difficult to do correctly. If you *want* to shoot to kill, it's easy to train for and get the outcome you want.. If you *want* to shoot to maim, it's much more difficult to train for and more likely to result in an outcome you didn't want.

[uponit7771]

29. Please use sarc tag

[WhiskeyGrinder]

37. I'm not being sarcastic. Guns are not wounding tools, they're killing tools.

If you *want* to shoot to kill, it's easy to train for and get the outcome you want.. If you *want* to shoot to maim, it's much more difficult to train for and more likely to result in an outcome you didn't want.

[dalton99a]

4. Too much work.

Instant death penalty for everything

[Wellstone ruled]

6. Training since the 1984 Congressional

bill giving Police Departments Military tactical hardware and Equipment as well as Warrior Training has given us the results in real time .

So much for Law and Order eh.

[42bambi]

8. I just turned the TV & heard of this horrid shooting...why-why did the cops shoot him...did he

have a gun & try to kill the cops, or was he just being black. I can't even ... are the cops not understanding what the protests were/are about! I can't even imagine - what's next!

[sheshe2]

10. Dunno.

Dead men can't speak?

However cell phones are showing the truth.

[sop]

11. Because they can get away with it.

[MuseRider]

12. In many cases I think

it is partly because so many of us are armed to the teeth as well but I sure don't recall many of them speaking up and out about how that may not be the best answer to anything.

[BannonsLiver]

23. Yes

One of the reasons police are the way they are is because we have 400 million guns circulating in the country. They assume everyone they encounter has a firearm. To be honest, I do as well. You’d be a fool not to given the sheer amount of firearms owned.

[SharonClark]

31. I hadn't thought of that but that makes sense.

[Fla_Democrat]

13. Donut Operator

Covered this. One reason is... it's not Hollywood. Anyway, here's the video.

[Eyeball_Kid]

14. My simplistic guess:

Favored candidates for the position of police officer are veterans. Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans.

Military veterans, when in the service, are literally trained to kill. They are not trained in community safety. They are trained to kill. And if they excel in their training, killing SHOULD be second nature to them. In a war zone, that's called "survival." They quickly learn to objectify their "enemies" (us v. them) as a prelude to fulfilling their mission. So these vets come home and they need work. And they get trained to be police officers. But their training doesn't negate their military training. So when it's time to perform in highly stressful situations as police officers, their training as community police isn't always their reference point for action.

Some officers are immersed in an anti-minorities culture while never getting military training, to be sure. So at least two origins of police misconduct can easily dovetail into common justifications for unprofessional action. It's a hell of a problem that isn't unique to this time.

[Hoyt]

17. I definitely think giving preference to x-military is a mistake. This ain't a war zone.

I'm not so sure it's military training so much, nowadays, as the type person drawn to the military, especially combat assignments.

In any event, something has to be done.

[GulfCoast66]

18. Reading the previous responses I know I'm diving into dangerous water. But here goes.

It is hard, really hard to hit a target with a handgun. I’ve shot my whole life. Mainly hunting long guns but enough with handguns to know I want no part of them.

No, I’m not a gun nut. I own several for various hunting situations all safely locked up except the 5 shot shotgun under my bed. A gun my dad bought in 1963. And we have no kids in our home. If children are coming over it gets locked up.

If you have never shot a handgun, or even done so casually hitting a target at 10 feet is not easy. Even on a range with no pressure. Which is the situation most cops have to train on. Throw in Adrenaline and a moving target the chance of hitting an aimed shot is almost impossible. And keep in mind, even most Ex-military train almost exclusively on long guns.

So you are taught to shoot center of mass.

If you get you idea of shooting handguns from any TV show you are seeing fiction. A guy shooting a gun with one hand hitting someone at 20 feet. That shot is not happening in real life. Unless disabled you never shoot one handed. You are not hitting shit.

The solution? Use the U.K. method. Most cops don’t carry guns. A taser, can of mace and baton. It would keep cops from killing people for not following directions in a non life threatening situation. If someone in armed and dangerous, which happens, call on the armed unit.

So you asked a question and I answered as someone who has shooting experience. As many members of the Democratic Party do. Most I know.

[stopdiggin]

27. thanks. first knowledgeable answer in the string

second attempt ..
If less than deadly force is an option (and available) that is what will be used. If the decision has devolved to firearms .. then, yes, that is a concession to an exercise of deadly force (regrettably, and rightly or wrongly). Lesser options are effectively off the table. You don't shoot to wound, you shoot to disarm and disable .. and (in most cases) that means until the target goes down.

The question itself demonstrates a lack of understanding.

[Bettie]

19. From what we've seen in the last couple of years

they seem to be trained to simply empty their gun into people if they feel a little bit scared or violent.

Well, not white people, they get arrested and taken out for fast food on the way in, if they are feeling peckish.

People keep saying "most cops are good guys". The last couple of weeks seems to show that isn't true. The "good guys" are not the majority.

[dalton99a]

20. +1. It's the "Obey Me NOW or Die" mentality and zero tolerance for minorities

Heck, in many cases they still shot people who obeyed them and posed zero threat

[Wolf Frankula]

21. They think of themselves as soldiers, fighting an enemy..

Coppers, you are NOT soldiers. You are civilians, part of the community. Act like civilians. Protect the people. And bring the suspects in ALIVE. Get them back on the beat walking. Get rid of the military hardware, the assault rifles, the armored personnel carriers.

Wolf

[Warpy]

22. Ideally, they should shoot only when a life threatening issue exists

and not because some poor slob panicked and ran away and pissed them off.

In a life threatening situation, you want to end the situation, so lethal force is warranted. It is not warranted in any other situation, something that needs to be addressed.

[bringthePaine]

24. the dead cannot sue or bear witness

[Wanderlust988]

30. BINGO! The dead can't testify against you

I actually heard a cop say this one time. It's easier to get off when they're not alive testify.

[Corgigal]

25. Double taps,

Center mass. I would think it’s because they would know the seriousness of pulling their weapon.

However, doesn’t seem to bother them anymore. I guess when you de-humanize long enough, it’s not that complicated.

[JT45242]

26. Training from height of PCP days

Copes were once taught to shoot to wound, put rounds in a suspect's leg for instance.

Then PCP became a huge problem. Shooting someone cranked up on PCP caused an adrenaline rush, often resulting in the perpetrator rushing and injuring the cop or bystanders.

They then changed the training to double tap the center of mass aiming for heart and lungs.

At the time, it was a decision made in the interest of overall public safety.

PCP is not the problem it once was, so this may no longer be the best solution.

When I took forensic science classes in grad school we talked to police about this policy and the unreliability of tasers.

These were thoughtful cops who understood the difference between a routine stop and dealing with someone on PCP, crack, or meth. Not all cops are as well trained and thoughtful.

[jmg257]

28. Because 1) "center mass" is the Center of the largest area visible

Often chest, or head (vehicle) so Best chance of hitting what ur aiming at, and
2) if your shooting, your shooting (Supposedly) because lethal Force is justified, and at the instant when all the shit has hit the fan, it’s about life or death - likely yours, so you want to stop the threat to your/others’ life NOW.

Tactics, weapons, capacity, caliber, etc etc change much when wounded people just keep trying to kill you.

The incident is infamous in FBI history and is well-studied in law enforcement circles. Despite outnumbering the suspects by a ratio of four to one, the agents found themselves pinned down by semi-automatic rifle fire and unable to respond effectively. Although both Matix and Platt were hit multiple times during the shootout, Platt fought on and continued to wound and kill agents.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout


So, why sh/would you 1) try to pick a limb (!?!) to hit when someone is actively trying to kill you or someone else, especially with a firearm. 2) fire 1 round and stop to see how you did when someone is actively trying to kill you or someone else?

It aint TV.

[NickB79]

32. Some of it is cost savings. Practice time and ammo add up

You'd need monthly trips to the range, and hundreds of rounds a month, to stay that sharp. Shooting is like a sport; you don't train and you lose skill. Across an entire police force, you're talking big money. And that's assuming you have a gun up to task. A cheap Glock can shoot a 6" group at 25 yd and still pass quality control. You want precision, you need to pay for higher quality barrels, triggers, sights and ammo. Pretty soon your $500 gun is $1000.

Most officers only shoot their guns to qualify once a year, and fire less than 50 rounds to do so.

[Codeine]

33. "Shooting to maim" or shooting at a limb

on a moving person is nearly impossible, especially in a low-light situation when adrenaline is screwing up fine motor skills.

Any time a cop fires a gun it should be center mass. The problem is not WHERE the police shoot, but WHEN the police shoot. They should only be firing weapons at a person posing a genuine deadly threat to their safety or the safety of those around them. At no point in this altercation was use of deadly force justified.

Nobody was in danger of being killed by a dude running away with a taser. Nobody needed to die that night.

[KWR65]

34. Have you ever tried to shot someone running in their legs?

You have to shot center mass to eliminate the threat.

[hack89]

35. Because real life is not the movies

And it is very hard to hit someone's legs, especially when they are running or it is dark. You shoot for the largest, easiest target, which is the torso.

[Baclava]

39. also unlike the movies, missed shots all over the place hit innocent bystanders

Center mass aiming makes good bullet backstops

Shooting guns out of bad guys hands was invented by Hollywood

[HotTeaBag]

40. The next time you see a police officer, ask them.

You're not going to get the answer here.

[Happy Hoosier]

41. The real question is why they are shooting at all....

.... in a populated area at a man who is not a lethal threat. He shot the taser and missed. They shot him because they were angry and wanted revenge.

[PTWB]

42. I don't think they're taught to "shoot to kill" in general practice.

They’re taught to shoot to stop the person from causing the threat which justifies the shooting in the first place. If someone has done something which justifies deadly force, the cop’s training should be to stop that threat as quickly and safely (for everyone who is being threatened) as possible. That means to make your shots as easy to hit as possible (the chest). The shooting is supposed to stop when the threat stops. Accounting for the time it takes the brain to process that the threat has been stopped, shots made after about 1.5 seconds from the threat being stopped and thereafter begin to become suspect and may not be justified any longer.

I will say that this is how it is supposed to work. Obviously there are many cases where a cop “feels” threatened but no reasonable person would think that shooting is justified, and thus we see all these shootings of unarmed black men.

The issue is not WHERE cops are trained to shoot, but WHEN cops are trained to shoot. That is what has to change and improve.

It may be ingrained and bad enough now that dissolving the police departments across the board and remaking them as community oriented first responders is the only option we have left.

[Paladin]

43. A. It's too difficult; and B. Cops are shitty shots.

That's a summary of every "Why Do Police 'Shoot To Kill'?" thread here at DU, for the last 20 years. You're welcome.

[Dial H For Hero]

44. Because real life isn't a Western where you can casually hit someone in a limb as they're running.

One shoots for center of mass. The question of whether or not such a shot is justified is an entirely different subject, of course.

[EllieBC]

45. Some of you think movies are real life and it shows.

You’d have to be a sniper to hit the knee cap of someone, especially someone fleeing. That’s why they are trained to hit centre mass. It’s the largest part.