Instead of abolishing the police, why don't we just...

[Amy-Strange]

-

take their guns away?

Isn't that what they did in England?

I might be wrong, but I think it's worth discussing.
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[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Good luck with that.

Besides, George Floyd and Eric Garner (and others) weren't killed with guns. Guns are only part of the problem.

[Amy-Strange]

3. Good point, but...

-

I think the crowd might've stopped Floyd's killers, if it weren't for the fact that they had guns.

Besides, there were a lot more blacks killed by cops with guns, than by choking.
===========

[SoonerPride]

2. If we didn't have 245,000,000 firearms out there we could disarm police

Sadly it is an arms race.

The NRA loves it.

[unblock]

5. The thinking would not be to disarm them completely

Just to not have guns available for every police officer at all times.

Don't presume mortal danger at all times. If the situation calls for guns, withdraw and call in authorized firearms officers.

That way guns are only used by better trained officers as well as when at least a little planning is involved. Fewer itchy trigger situations.

Plus, then there are still jobs for police who shouldn't be handling guns.

[Amy-Strange]

13. I agree, and...

-

thank you.
===========

[unblock]

4. I think the modern police force in the uk never routinely had guns

Although there are authorized firearms officers available when needed.

Personally, I think the traffic stop needs to be rethought. It can probably be done via cell phone in many cases.

[Amy-Strange]

8. Yes, traffic cops bother me too...

-

I'd rather have them investigating violent crime, murders and missing persons.

All you'd really need is a number of cop cars with tinted windows (so you can't see in, but also have cameras inside) parked in strategic places to stop speeders and other asshole drivers, but also have one or two of them randomly occupied with real cops, just in case.

Put the rest to work helping to investigate real violent crimes.
==========

[MichMan]

28. How would you stop DUI drivers?

Seeing a cop car wont make them sober

[Amy-Strange]

30. Good question, and...

-

I really don't have an answer, but I don't think putting more cops out there has helped either. Not in the long run anyway, but random DUI stops, with cops that don't have guns, might work.

What do you think?
===============

[MichMan]

32. You said there shouldn't be any traffic stops at all

[Amy-Strange]

34. When did I say that? n/t

[MichMan]

42. If nearly all the police cars assigned to traffic enforcement are empty...

… how would most traffic laws be enforced ? A camera in a stationary car with no occupants isn't capable of determining if someone is driving erratically or most other moving violations.

[Amy-Strange]

44. True, and I really don't have an answer, except to ask...

-

how many DUI drivers are out there, right now, compared to the number of police and their DUI arrest records?

I know I'm nitpicking, but I also have another question.

How many security cameras do you think are out there, right now.

Not including security cameras, there are traffic cams everywhere, and some of them even take good pictures.

You can easily find a lot of them on line and watch them all day long.

There's one in New Orleans that I particularly like.

(Ssssh, don't tell anyone, ok?)
=========

[Amy-Strange]

47. After securing the crime scene, the next thing LE does is find witnesses, including...

-

any and all cams and security cameras in the area.

LE is very rarely EVER on the scene when a crime is committed.

LE are already using cams to solve crimes.

It's not unfeasible that they could be used instead of a lot more police.

What do you think?
============

[Grokenstein]

6. Who said anything--anything at all--about "abolishing" the police?

[Amy-Strange]

9. Obviously, you haven't seen that thread yet.

-

Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police

https://democraticunderground.com/100213585888
=========

[cayugafalls]

7. We would have to disarm the civilian population first.

Disarming the police is a good thought, but hard to get buy in when they do have to respond to violent crimes where people are armed.

You aren't wrong, it is worth discussing. Disarming the civilian population would be the first step though and that in and of itself is a very tough battle.

[Amy-Strange]

11. Thank you, but...

-

how does the English police respond to armed criminals?

I mean, even if guns are illegal, criminals are still able to get them.

I have no problem with people owning guns, just as long as it's regulated, you know?
==========

[cayugafalls]

15. The vast majority of guns in England are highly regulated.

Less than 4 per 100 people vs here in the states of 1 gun per person.

They also have a community based model and training (something that is being talked about now).

I think training, community, culture all works in synergy. We currently have a system that is failing and the only way forward is to rebuild and overhaul the entire culture from the ground up, in my opinion. There is a cultural change that needs to occur alongside the rebuilding of the police departments. We can not do one without the other.

This is a very big problem. Systemic racism, a culture of violence and the huge economic disparity all need to be dealt with at the same time.

There is no simple solution, no single slogan, no quick remedy...it is why things are being torn down and people are walking the streets clamoring for change. We have created a culture that wants instant gratification and unfortunately the current culture and class war is not something that can be solved instantly.

I wish it weren't so...

[cayugafalls]

16. And to add, they do have guns. 10% of the police in England are armed.

There are special units to handle such cases.

[Amy-Strange]

18. I actually like that.

-

Special units with guns, rather than every damn one of them.
===========

[Initech]

25. That ain't happening without a war or two.

And those almost never turn out the way you think they're going to.

[cayugafalls]

29. I agree completely.

I think we are heading that way right now, to be honest.

The right is signalling and rallying all their base and from perusing the fringe elements the way I do, I am almost certain that they are ready to fight, in fact, they are looking forward to it.

I have acquaintances here in Texas from my old job that used to confide in me as I was very good at keeping my beliefs separate from my work space, and they literally would tell me about the groups they belonged to that had plans for when the SHTF.

Some of the stuff the divulged was absolutely scary. It was the main reason I retired early. I was done working with those people and needed to just chill at home to keep my sanity.

[JI7]

10. We would first have to have gun control for the general population

[Amy-Strange]

12. I'm not against people owning guns, but...

-

I agree that we should also have good gun control.

One of the first things, of course, is to eliminate the gun show loophole.
=========

[Initech]

14. I'd much rather hire officers who aren't white supremacist shit heads.

In 2003, the FBI warned us that white supremacists were infiltrating all levels of law enforcement. In 2006 that same report was updated and said that we have done nothing. Now here it is, 14 fucking years later and we still have done nothing. And white supremacy and nationalism are more popular than ever thanks to the shithead in the White House.

I just want to kick these assholes out of power and maybe then we can start talking about law and order. When the cops are the criminals, how can you tell the supposed good guys from the bad guys?

[Amy-Strange]

17. How would we do that?

-

I'm not criticizing. I just really want to know.

How do we find them and get rid of them?
=========

[Initech]

19. Mandatory background checks and contact tracing.

If it can work for Coronavirus, it can work for hiring law enforcement officers. If someone wants to be a police officer, or work any position of authority like that, they should be subjected to multiple, annual background checks and contact tracing through their social media channels. They should also be subjected to an annual psychiatric evaluation. If they don't pass, they're not hired. I don't think this would be that hard to implement.

[Amy-Strange]

20. Don't they already do that...

-

and what about the ones already in LE?

And, please don't tell me that they just hire anybody off the street and give them a gun, or do they?
===========

[Initech]

21. I honestly don't know.

But if I were in charge that is what I would do.

[Amy-Strange]

22. You should be in charge...

-

You can't be any worse than all those other assholes.
========

[Initech]

23. Well I know I definitely would do a better job than Trump and his goons!

[Amy-Strange]

24. Damn, that's an overstatement!!! n/t

[cayugafalls]

26. They do not go deep enough. To become an FBI officer, the scrutiny is intense.

The background check and psyche eval is quite thorough. They will look at all known associates and past associates and question your choices. They interview you multiple times and try to throw you off and get you to express your biases. I have known people who have tried to get government security clearances and it is a very intense process.

We need the same vetting of police officers. It is expensive, but it is a worthwhile expense.

Unfortunately, if you are a Veteran you are almost certain to be hired by a police department. They almost assume you have been vetted simply because you have served.

[Amy-Strange]

27. I love the FBI, and...

-

it would be expensive, but you're right that it would definitely be worth it.
============

[Luciferous]

31. That still wouldn't have saved George Floyd- the problem is bigger than guns.

[Amy-Strange]

33. Maybe not, but...

-

I think the crowd would've stopped them from killing Floyd, if the cops didn't have guns.

One can only hope.
========

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

35. Disarm the police, then defund them... problem solved!!

[Amy-Strange]

36. That's sneaky, but...

-

would probably be necessary to do it that way.
=========

[Warpy]

37. We've largely defunded them here in NM

because we ended civil asset forfeiture by state and local police. That sharply curtailed their ability to buy war surplus gear and continue the militarization process. A check of what has been bought has shown some fairly appropriate purchases like night vision goggles and kevlar vests. While they were allowed to rob at will without filing charges, they were buying themselves ski trips and booze as well as war toys. It was a total racket, so the lege stopped it and shockingly enough, a GOP governor signed it.

Defunding and demilitarizing are the two first steps. Spending funding on auxiliary officers who are trained in medicine or psychology or social work to go out on those sorts of calls is one hope for the future. Disarming is an even more elusive dream since the citizens will have to give up their semiauto binkies before that will work.

I don't think many sane people are talking about abolishing the police. What they need is restructuring, with different guidelines on the use of force, and training in de-escalating tense situations. Also, the process for reporting a cop who is out of control needs to be a very different one that will not provoke retaliation.

It was Nixon's plan to turn police forces into a de facto army of occupation to get around the Posse Comitatus Act and it worked beyond his wildest dreams. It has to end or it will destroy us.

[Amy-Strange]

38. New Mexico, huh?

-

Good for you guys, and thank you.
=========

[Warpy]

39. Shocked the hell out of me when it happened.

Almost as much as it shocked me when this state overturned the death penalty. For a wild west state, it's gotten remarkably civilized around here.

[Amy-Strange]

40. I love New Mexico, but...

-

it took a while to get used to that dry heat.
===========

[Warpy]

41. 3 weeks to acclimate to altitude, 3 years to get rid of nosebleeds

but there is no way I could go back to east coast humidity. This thin, dry stuff we call air grows on you.

[Amy-Strange]

43. Once you get used to it, you don't have to worry about sweaty clothes as much, but...

-

you've got to hydrate more than you think!
=========

[aidbo]

45. Part of defunding the police could be

Denying them funding for their firearms. And we should be denying them access to surplus military hardware that is surplus by design to keep military hardware contractors rich.

[LanternWaste]

46. Just my guess... but I'm thinking you're smoking a bit too much prior to typing.

"I might be wrong, but I think it's worth discussing..."

[Amy-Strange]

48. Me and a fellow DUer were just discussing that yesterday, and...

-

yeah, you're right, I was stoned, and I apologize if this thread offended you, although, I suspect that yours was not written in anger, but rather as a kind of tongue in cheek question instead.

(I hope)
============