The Rayshard Brooks case is in a grey area that will leave everyone unhappy

[Renew Deal]

The bodycam video was released. You can view it here:

and here:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/06/14/rayshard-brooks-atlanta-wendys-police-bodycam-video-vpx.cnn

Brooks was asleep in his car, but the car was in the drive-thru line. He was not parked in a spot.
He took a field sobriety test and is obviously wobbly.
He took a breathalyzer and it registered .108 (intoxicated).
Officers decided to arrest him.
He tried to flee.
It became a wrestling match. He threw punches at the cops.
He stole the taser and tried to run away.
He turned and fired the taser at the officers.
One of them shot him with a gun.

The question then is whether the use of force was appropriate.

The manual states an employee may only use deadly force when:
"1. He or she reasonably believes that the suspect possesses a deadly weapon or any object, device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others; or
2. When there is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm (O.C.G.A. Section 17-4-20) and the employee reasonably believes that the suspect’s escape would create a continuing danger of serious physical harm to any person."

https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/atlanta-police-use-of-deadly-force-procedures/85-1e326736-eac0-4969-989d-5671c0f23549

There is also a question about the weapon he stole. A taser is a torture device and should be illegal. I know that police need non-lethal means, but it has become a crutch.

The bigger question that this situation brings up is about police tactics in general. Some cities outlaw police chases to protect the safety of bystanders. Should police let people run away? They had his car and license. Maybe they can pick him up later. But you also have to ask why he would want to run away. Does he have something to run from like a warrant or hostages in the basement?

That's why everyone walks away from this case unhappy. There are no straight answers on the incident. The best hope is that it leads to a change in tactics.

[BusyBeingBest]

1. I think police consider someone grabbing their taser--it is a weapon--

to be a true threat because he could use it to subdue an officer and take his gun. However, if he was running away and not attempting further confrontation then shooting was not justified. This guy wigged out and then the cops wigged out. I honestly could see a white suspect getting shot in this situation, if he was this physically confrontational and went for the cop's weapon.

[marmar]

2. Focusing on the details of the video is the wrong conversation....

.... why does a sleeping drunk person at Wendy's require this kind of response, and how does an a fleeing person with a taser end up full of bullets. Sorry, but lots of belligerent white dudes physically confront police and manage to survive.
Communities of color are overpoliced to the point of being under siege.

[Renew Deal]

3. Would you expect to be shot if you fired a taser at a cop?

[uponit7771]

8. WTF ?! You ... KNOW... the answers depends on the person being white or not. Why ask as if

... it doesn't ?!

[Renew Deal]

10. What about you? Would you expect to be shot if you fired a taser at a cop?

It’s a simple question.

[uponit7771]

16. I would expect to be murdered by cops for walking down the street, I'm black. Just like Jay Phaoroh

... it doesn't matter about money, fame, status ... NOTHING.

They treat me like that because of my skin color ... PERIOD.

[Bettie]

68. Which is why I suspect the guy panicked

at this point in this country, why would any black man trust that the cops aren't planning to shoot you dead any time they come toward you?

Some people seem really invested in finding reasons that this man deserved to die.

Meanwhile, I know plenty of white guys who have been drunk, belligerent, combative, and who are generally assholes (ah, family...) who make it home alive, every time.

[uponit7771]

73. THANK YOU !!! I've seen more white people beat up in the last week than I've seen all my

... life and the logic goes if they're beating white people on camera they're murdering me and mine.

This is some screwed up crap the mentality of police in some cities in this country

[femmedem]

26. It's not a simple question because taking the taser was the response to a problem, not the cause.

Police escalate, escalate, escalate, violently arrest people with as little warning and as much force as possible, and then panicked people in the middle of a flight or fight response do something that, if seen without context, might look as if they initiated the violence.

They push people beyond their limits for no damn good reason, and then reach a moment when the cop, too, is in fear.

[wellst0nev0ter]

41. No. There are countless examples to back that up

Police can't claim a taser is non-deadly weapon, then turn around a kill a guy for attempting to use it

Link to tweet

?s=20

[mcar]

67. ...

Link to tweet

?s=20

Link to tweet

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Link to tweet

?s=20

Link to tweet

?s=20

[Bettie]

69. Thanks. This makes the point

completely and without a doubt.

What's the difference? Oh, wait, I know. WE all know, but some choose not to see it.

[mcar]

70. We all know the difference

[uponit7771]

74. 👍, and none of them were shot in the back

[mcar]

84. Yep. What could the difference possibly be?

[LeftInTX]

88. Without looking at all the details

I bet those creeps were dangerous and had lengthy histories
.

Look at how they handled the Bundy gang?
Then a few months ago, there was some "heavily armed" situation and they handled it with kid gloves.

In this case, Mr Brooks was very cordial and gave no indication that he was going resist arrest. Brooks freaked out, then the cops freaked out.

When people are armed to the tilt police handle with kid gloves.
Look at Randy Weaver, David Koresh. All handled with kid gloves.

White supremacists are always dangerously armed with weapons more dangerous than tasers. And police are afraid of them.

I hate our gun culture but it probably explains why those white guys are alive.

[mcar]

91. Look at all the heavily armed white guys in MI

and elsewhere during the ridiculous "reopen" protests. Cops were milling around them. It was all very genial.

[MichMan]

15. Depends on how serious you think drunk driving is?

[uponit7771]

17. Not serious enough to shoot someone in the back, there are procedures for handing drunk drivers

... and I'm sure its not shoot them in the back for pointing a non lethal device at them.

[marmar]

24. I think you missed the point entirely.

[MichMan]

47. The reply was regarding this sentence

"why does a sleeping drunk person at Wendy's require this kind of response"

He drove there drunk and after getting his food he was going to continue driving drunk.

They had him pull out of line, get out of the car, and gave him a sobriety test. He failed the breathalyzer and they attempted to arrest him. IMO that is appropriate for a DUI. I received one 40 yrs ago and that was exactly what they did to me.

He wasn't shot for being drunk, it was after all the subsequent actions. It does appear to be an excessive use of force, and there may be charges filed.

Some people are acting like the cops had no business even trying to arrest him in the first place.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. There is no gray area. He should be alive today.

But you also have to ask why he would want to run away. Does he have something to run from like a warrant or hostages in the basement?

Listen to yourself.

[Renew Deal]

5. Why would he run?

Don’t you wonder? He has to know he won’t get away. So what makes him feel so desperate that he needs to run?

[uponit7771]

9. Because he doesn't want to be murdered by cops ?! REALLY ?! There was WORLD WIDE protest about

... this just days ago

[Renew Deal]

11. That's not a good reason.

That’s a sovereign citizen argument.

[uponit7771]

13. False equivalence noted, sovereign citizens don't have studies showing THEM being unarmed is 21 time

... times more likely to be murdered by the cops black people do.

Sans that running from the police does ... NOT ... mean shoot someone in the back.

That's not even thinkable

[Renew Deal]

14. You seem to overlook the taser part

That happened.

[uponit7771]

20. You mean the 100,000s of thousands of LEOs that pointed non lethal weapons at peaceful protesters

... and weren't shot back at by the protesters ... cause the devices were non lethal?!

WTF, we see the video man ... the shooting was bad relative to actions that could've been taken upfront.

[Caliman73]

62. Except sovereign citizens pointing weapons at cops are not regularly killed.

The color of their skin regularly dictates the perception of a threat.

There is video of a White man swinging a hatchet and a rather large knife at officers, even making contact with the officer's stinger. That man was taken into custody unharmed.

[treestar]

80. There are videos of white people being shot, too

Sovereign citizens usually argue and there are many videos of cops being patient with this, because they are not doing anything violent. They lecture the cop on the constitution, not having jurisdiction over them and asking for a supervisor.

[uponit7771]

90. Emperical exception and not the rule

[uponit7771]

89. +1

[treestar]

79. Then he could have just gone and been booked.

[StarfishSaver]

33. Why would he run?!

If you really don't know the answer to that question, you have a lot of learning to do.

I suggest that, instead of posting OP's deigning to "explain" this to people, you take some time to educate yourself.

There are many resources you could consult, but Michelle Alexander's book "The New Jim Crow" and "Just Mercy" by Bryan Stephenson are excellent books to start with.

[Hortensis]

51. Why would running be punishable by summary execution?

Or is it not knowing why someone runs that justifies summary execution?

I know you don't think that, just saying that IMO why he ran is irrelevant to the issue that a citizen was executed on the streets for resisting arrest.

A murderer's excuse that, "Gee, maybe he might conceivably be running away to kill someone -- we can't now he isn't," would justify execution, "You know, just in case," denies the right of all men to life.

[jmg257]

56. Guess will never know. As he was killed without known cause.

[SidDithers]

83. Holy fuck, dude...

quit while you're behind.



Sid

[treestar]

19. Enough of this type of response.

Make a real response.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

30. What type of response did I give?

[treestar]

35. dismissive

like all you have to do is invoke an incantation and you've made a point. Listen to yourself. Why not say what it is that is wrong with the statement the person made rather than just imply they are a bad person?

[wellst0nev0ter]

42. How's this for a response?

Note: the suspect is white

Link to tweet

?s=20

[treestar]

54. You've changed the subject

So these two cases prove it's always racism and there is never any other factor that might be different?



Here there is a lot of room and not many other civilians around. The civilian didn't take the taser. Ran away but in a less densely peopled area.




More statistics than that are needed. Maybe all I need is this to counterargue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Zachary_Hammond

Why make it easy for the right wingers?

I googled and found them quickly.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-paradox-police-killings/
but also

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883

[WhiskeyGrinder]

46. Oh, I thought you were annoyed by me saying "He should be alive today."

[DanieRains]

28. He Didn't Want To Be Choked To Death While Cuffed

I would suspect.

[StarfishSaver]

57. I saw a white guy walking down the street kind of fast today

I should have called the police on him because he could have been running from a warrant or had hostages in the basement, or something.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

61. He wouldn't have been moving quickly otherwise, for sure.

[uponit7771]

6. FUCK NO!! You can see Brooks fired a taser!! If pointing something non lethal was death threatening

... then the protesters have tons of reasons to sue and shoot back at cops

NO!!

NOT THIS TIME

[Hoyt]

7. This case is different from the CLEAR abuse of power in the George Floyd case. In retrospect --

sitting at home, reading the laws, etc. -- R Brooks did fight with police, shoot toward police with a taser he took in fight, etc. But, the police could have tracked him down, and didn't need to shoot him.

Now, if R Brooks had carjacked the vehicle -- beating up an old couple in the process -- it probably would have been justified to keep him from getting away and maybe hurting others. But, that's not the case.

You are right that the best hope is a change in tactics. Maybe equip every policeperson with a K9 and one of the bolowrap like this:

[uponit7771]

12. +1, PDs across the country were pointing and shooting at peaceful protesters by the hundreds of ...

... thousands and few if any protesters responded the way this leo did

[treestar]

18. Did they really have to do anything at 0:50?

He got out of the line and parked. Why not leave him alone at that point?

And I am one who things the cops deserve to show their side, and they are not always wrong.

OK, he could smell alcohol. 2:20.

Why was anyone fired for this? All he had to do was be handcuffed and go along to the station. Once you resist, you start a real mess, and the cops are always to blame for the result? These things take place in seconds.

What are cops instructed to do if they are about to be tazed?

[uponit7771]

27. +1, are police financially incentivized to escalate situations so they can put themselves in danger?

There has to be money in violence

[treestar]

36. I'd think they are incentivized to

not be the one involved in this type of thing.

Fight it out in the court, not on the street with the cop. Resisting arrest gets people no where. How often do they manage to escape? And there is still a warrant out for them. Not everyone is Clyde Barrow.

Grabbing the tazer escalates it too.

[Ms. Toad]

64. As out as he was, in a drive through

Where you inch up every minute of so, yes. The police (under our current system) did need to do something.

It takes significant impairment to be that out, in that short a period of time. As someone who has lost loved ones to drink drivers, that man needed to be off the road. Leaving him be to wait until he believed he was safe to drive is not enough, since he has already proven that he currently lacks the ability to make that assessment.I

Obviously, what they did was an issue, but calling them, and the initial questioning were entirely appropriate.

[LuvNewcastle]

21. Fighting with the cops while they're trying

to arrest you might get you shot, whether you're black or white. The cops were doing the right thing when they were taking him in for a DUI. He was intoxicated and he was driving. If Brooks hadn't fought the police while they were trying to cuff him, he would more than likely be alive today. He shouldn't have been shot while fleeing, but I can understand why it happened. The cops didn't just show up to harass a guy for the hell of it, he was passed out in his car in the Wendy's drive-thru.

[uponit7771]

29. Shooting people in the back is illegal cop or not

[LuvNewcastle]

40. Absolutely.

He shouldn't have been shot while trying to flee. The cops did what they did because he pissed them off. They overreacted bigly.

[treestar]

77. I doubt they are trained to allow someone to flee

double that for his taking the taser.

If that were allowed, I think there would soon be community outrage as soon as one such case led to injury to someone else.

[LuvNewcastle]

85. Yeah, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

They make some tough calls, sometimes ending in death. Cops need to face greater scrutiny for some of the choices they make, but they can't be micro-managed or they won't want to do the job. It's a delicate balance, and it's always going to cause controversy when people go back and look at the video.

[DanieRains]

32. Except George Floyd Submitted Wa Cuffed Then Choked To Death

Catch 22..... 23 and 24.

[LuvNewcastle]

38. Most people aren't choked when handcuffed.

That's why the George Floyd case is such a big deal. Brooks was probably scared, but I'm sure he knew that he probably wasn't going to get choked to death. He did what he did because he was drunk and took a crazy risk, like drunk people do. I don't know why he would risk his life just to keep from going to jail and bonding out for a few hundred dollars, but I suppose we'll be hearing about that shortly.

[Sneederbunk]

50. We are also going to hear why Floyd continued to resist although handcuffed.

[LuvNewcastle]

53. Floyd was obviously murdered.

We have the tape. They had him down on the ground with his hands cuffed behind his back. He couldn't get up. Chauvin decided to snuff out his life.

The situation with Brooks is different. He obviously resisted arrest and got away. They didn't have the right to shoot him as he fled, but he made the cops mad when he got away and stole their taser. I understand why they were pissed at him even though I don't condone what they did to him.

[treestar]

78. Yes, can we not tell the difference

Resisting makes a new ball game. Now people are defending resisting and supporting the concept that the police should not arrest people who don't want to go into the station right now. In a DUI case. I'm sure MADD has long since seen to reforming any such behavior where it was allowed. Drunk driving has led to enough tragedy and when that happens, we demand stricter laws, got them, and now cops are supposed to let a DUI go if he doesn't feel like being arrested right now?

[StarfishSaver]

34. Not fighting with cops when you're black also gets you shot.

Running away from cops should not get you shot.

[StarfishSaver]

60. The Atlanta PD disagrees with you. They fired the cop

Who would have thought a southern city's police department brass would be less tolerant of cops shooting unarmed black men in the back than some DUers are?

[jalan48]

22. I see a guy who had too much to drink wanting to get home to be with his daughter on her birthday.

If we had community policing instead of the current militarized police force there's a good chance he would be alive today. He could have been arrested and then released to another household member after processing at the station. Instead, his arrest turned into a deadly power struggle.

[Raven123]

23. Is the standard to arrest, rather than cite and find a safe ride home?

If the encounter had happened on a the street, I could understand taking the driver into custody, as getting an impaired driver out of traffic is a safety issue for the driver, law enforcement and other drivers. Does the law require an arrest?

[jmg257]

58. No. Cops can use their descretion. I never got in trouble for getting people home safely.

Now thinking - we used to have special state-funded DWI patrols.
Chances are, you would not be treated the same when cops may be trying to get 1 in the books.

[StarfishSaver]

25. They're's nothing gray about it

Only someone purposely pretending to be obtuse would even claim that.

[uponit7771]

31. +1, especially when they later ask "why would they run" as if that's a justification for shooting

... someone in the back.

Yep, the Victim Should Be Angles crew comes out in force every time with these things

[onecaliberal]

37. He was running AWAY. Not driving. They had his car and plate.

Also, I do not believe the police saying he was drunk, sorry. The police have demonstrated time and again that they lie. They do not deserve the benefit of the doubt and I’m tired of people giving it to them.

[shockey80]

39. Brooks committed crimes, you could argue he was stupid for resisting, but

there was no reason to kill him. He did not rob a bank, rape a woman. He had a few drinks and fell asleep at the wheel in a drive through. He was probably stopping to get something to eat before he went home. Now he is dead. Imagine if that was your kid.

[treestar]

82. Imagine if your kid was killed by a drunk driver

It is taken very seriously. They had no other way than to chase him. When they wrestled him to the ground then, would they be allowed to arrest him? They have to subdue him to arrest him? That's why we have laws against resisting arrest.

And we can judge their split second decisions too easily.

[Tom Rinaldo]

43. No. It is Black and White.

The use of lethal force by the cop when he fired his gun can absolutely not be justified by anything that had happened or was happening when he fired it. Period. PERIOD.

Yes this case differs from the murder of George Floyd. That was a nearly nine minute public lynching. The fact that this case does not rise to the same horrific level of a cold blooded group murder of a black man who was already 100% subdued does not equate with there being any "grey areas" involved in this death. The fact that some might point to extenuating circumstances in no way excuses the taking of a life. Not all crimes are identical.

[Nevilledog]

65. +1

[Bettie]

71. +1

Makes me wonder how many of these cops have taken the courses on how to kill.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/02/dave-grossman-training-police-militarization/

[uponit7771]

75. +1,

[rockfordfile]

44. It was the correct decision to let the cop go because of his action to fire a gun

The cop should've made a different action.

[StarfishSaver]

45. The Atlanta PD doesn't think it''s "grey." They immediately fired the shooter cop

That should clear up that blurriness you seem to be having trouble with.

[Johnny2X2X]

48. Not gray area at all to the police force he worked for

They fired him right away. He wasn’t fired because of a gray area, he was fired for using deadly force when it wasn’t warranted.

[dalton99a]

59. +1

[treestar]

81. right now they are afraid of the political fallout

they may walk that back later.

Firing without even a hearing or discussion shows that.

Ask some cops. The PDs and mayors are afraid of more demonstrations and more riots/looting and more police/person interactions that result.

[handmade34]

49. no gray for me...

the police agitated the situation and then shot a man in the back... no gray area... the cops had his name, his address, he wasn't violent, they could have found him and dealt with another way...

[wellst0nev0ter]

72. It only looks gray when you gaslight the subject

[Hortensis]

52. There is NO gray area.

The officer had no valid reason to summarily execute Mr. Brooks on the street, lacking the immediate threat to life or serious injury to themselves or a third person that would require stopping him.

[jmg257]

55. Grey area?? A cop shoots a person in the back AFTER that person attempts

To use a taser on him. A taser that (if it works) works 1 time, especially as the man holding it is RUNNING AWAY.
Cops use tasers ALL the time because they are NOT lethal.

Pretty clear it was a bad shoot.

[Thunderbeast]

63. Imagine th Horror!

Of letting him stumble home to be arrested later when all heads were calm and clear. It's not like the man was a dangerous fugitive. They had already identified him, filmed him, and had his car.

In a world where concealed carry and "stand your ground" is the law of the land, is a drunk with a taser a threat to the community? This man's execution deserves criminal accountability. The wrong man had a badge and a gun.

[MoonlitKnight]

66. There is no grey area

Person sleeping in car.
No need for all of the questions.
If property owner wanted him gone then call a cab or Uber and tow the car.
End of interaction.

Instead we have a cop trained to boost arrest numbers to feed the prison industrial complex and end up with a man dead.

[Thrill]

76. Shot in the BACK. No excuse for that

[Blasphemer]

87. No grey area for me

The police routinely deal with belligerent drunks and others who resist arrest or otherwise difficult to handle. The end result of those encounters is decided primarily by the race of the suspect. A friend recently told me about an incident (this was many years ago) where he choked a police officer who was trying to arrest him and other protesters. Did he die? No. Did he feel at risk of dying? No. Was he even arrested? No. Was pursued for an after the fact arrest? No. What was his race? You guessed it.