ALL High Schools should be turned into two year colleges, and...

[Amy-Strange]

-

the result would be that everyone who finishes high school would be awarded the Associates Degree of their choice, but you know that ain't gonna happen, because of the way the accreditation system is set up in this country.

I have an Associates Degree, and the only difference between what I learned in college and high school was that you got more details about each subject in college.

Of course, that might make an AA almost obsolete like a high school diploma is, but the important thing is that it will also give everyone a two year heads up on college and less student loan debt.

Just my opinion, but I think it's worth discussing.

What do y'all think?

EDIT: I'm talking about turning the high schools we already pay for into college Associate Degree shops, without going to and paying for college, or something like that.
============

[Thomas Hurt]

1. I always thought of associates degrees as more trades or vocational oriented...

something you didn't get in high school other than a shop class, if they still do shop class.

I learned a lot more about critical thinking in college though, that is not a bad thing if it will take with people.

[Amy-Strange]

5. Yeah, I know...

-

Associates are almost worthless, but it would give kids two years of college under their belt, and I think that's more important.
=======================

[ProfessorGAC]

75. Much More

The big junior college in our county (2nd biggest community college in the state) has AA degrees in many(!) disciplines.
Chemical technology, med tech, law enforcement, education (aides with at least an AA get paid more), phlebotomy (my sister), electronics, computer prgrammingf, etc.
I've met people with those AAs in all the fields I mentioned.
Yes, they have curricula for electricians, pipe fitters, welders, and the like.
But, it's more than that.
They're fully accredited & their academic credits are fully accepted by nearly every school in the state, public or private. For about 1/4th the cost of a state school.
Geez, even I took a speech class one summer & a Shakespeare class the next, there when I was in undergrad. Kept my schedule clear for labs and other elective. And, in the summer it was REALLY cheap. (I went to private schools, all the way to PhD, so costly, although the companies I worked for paid for grad schools)
I don't know about all AA programs, but the 6 or so community colleges within 50 miles of where we live are all like this.

[Freddie]

2. Our local career and technical high school

Has an agreement with the community college that the students earn up to 30 college credits with their CTE courses (auto tech, welding etc) towards an AA in the same field.

[Amy-Strange]

3. I know about that, but...

-

you don't get the Associates until you go to College.

I'd rather see them get at the end of college, but that's just my opinion.
=========

[Yavin4]

4. I agree. Though, I would extend High School by 2 years.

And create different tracks. One for people who want to go to college and another track for people who want to learn a profession like plumbing, carpentry, hair salon, etc.

[Amy-Strange]

7. I like what you're saying, and

-

thank you for that positive input.
=======

[csziggy]

8. Back in the 1960s the high school I went to had three tracks

College prep, vo-tech (vocational/technical), and general. College prep is obvious; vo-tech had farming, mechanical, carpentry, plumbing, and more; general was basically low level business and general education - most of the girls that were not getting ready for college took that track and learned short hand and business classes or more cooking and sewing than the basic Home Ec classes taught. Vo-tech was mostly for the boys.

It was a great system. Many of the vo-tech boys were prepared to begin learning a trade or even start a career as soon as they graduated high school. One boy I graduated with took the plumbing track. He now owns his own plumbing business, now the largest in that little town. In many ways they learned more useful stuff than we college prep students did.

[Amy-Strange]

12. Folks like that really don't need college, but...

-

not everyone is interested in those careers.

I like what you're saying, though.
=============

[csziggy]

13. The world has changed, those tracks fit what was needed at that time in that area

But a system that is adaptable to the locale and the needs of the students would be better than what we have now, which seems to be mostly teaching so the students can pass standardized tests.

[Amy-Strange]

17. That's true, and

I agree.

Any changes won't be over night, that's for sure.
===========

[Yavin4]

30. You can add in other vocations into the vocational track

Such as computer programming, website management, film making, etc. You don't need a college degree for a lot of career fields. We just create a meaningless requirement.

Colleges should be for people who want to go into the sciences, research, and/or teaching. It should not be used for vocational training.

[csziggy]

33. Yes - that's the key

I graduated high school in 1970 so the system I described is fifty years ago. I am not sure what the systems are now. I never had kids and have no familiarity with school systems. I do know that the vo-tech track in my high school was extremely successful back then.

[Amy-Strange]

35. That's true, I could do software programming, but...

-

since I don't have a Bachelors Degree, and only an Associates, it's very, very difficult to get a good job.
==========

[Yavin4]

38. Computer Science degrees should be for people who want to do research in the field of computing

Not for people who want to learn an existing programming language and develop applications. That should be taught in a vocational program.

[Amy-Strange]

39. Absolutely!

-

Almost all those programmers out there working for Microsoft and Apple have Bachelors, but it's interesting to note that despite that, we still need all our programs to be updated constantly.

They wouldn't need to do that if they wrote good code the first time!</RANT>
============

[Archetypist]

51. That is how

the Dutch public education system was more or less set up from the 60's through the last decade. That's changed since then though.

[tishaLA]

76. I've spoken with a number of my students

(at a large public university) that tracks are still implicit. And one of the things they point out is that African American and Latinx students are almost always steered away from the college track. I have no reason to doubt that's true, especially when I look at college demographics.

[hunter]

69. There shouldn't be any eighteen year olds in high school, and few seventeen year olds.

Nobody should be driving cars to high school.

I'd end it in the tenth grade.

Quitting high school for college was one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life.

Ages 16-18 could be an experimental time with guided vocational and academic opportunities entirely removed from high school.

[aikoaiko]

6. Actually, we're almost there already.

I work at a university and we get many new students with lots of earned credit hours already.

Between Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate, CLEP, and Dual Enrollment, students can easily earn 30 hours and some up to 60 credit hours.

I could see tacking a 13th or 14th year to HS with the right standards. If the faculty were owned and assessed by colleges, it would be easy.

[Amy-Strange]

9. That's true, but...

-

then you still have to go to college to actually get that degree.

That cost money, and why pay money for more of the same thing, when we're already paying for high schools through property taxes and such.

The problem is that the accreditation system is too much into making money, rather than helping the poor get better educated.

I agree with adding a 13th and 14th year, but I also think we really don't need to.

I remember in high school going over the same shit, over and over again, and we should stream line that process, instead of adding two more years.

Anyway, thank you for your input. It's definitely worth thinking about.
============

[xmas74]

10. My daughter's university works with a program

You can take several courses for college credit at a third of the cost. A local foundation gives scholarships to worthy students. My daughter graduated from high school with 35 hours. Now there are students graduating from this program with a full associate's.

President Obama spoke at her university right after the program was implemented. Several years later and most of the Hugs have been worked out.

[Amy-Strange]

14. Thank you. Very worthy programs, but...

-

obviously not everyone qualifies, especially the scholarships, or can they afford college courses, even at one-third the cost.

They're great programs, but they don't help everybody, and a free two-year college degree would, I think.
=========

[xmas74]

59. Honestly,

There are years with more scholarships than students applying.
If they take 12 hrs a semester and are low income they can qualify for Pell Grants. There are students starting this year who just graduated from high school and have an associate at no cost.

It's all about how determined the student is.

And for those who choose not to take all those hours in high school my state has the A+ program. You must enroll in the program in high school,complete 40 hours of volunteer work and maintain a 2.5 GPA. With that you have guaranteed tuition,fees and books at any community college in the state. Enrollment is free and the community service is made so that anyone can get it, even if transportation is an issue or time. Some of it is done on grounds at the high school.

[Amy-Strange]

62. Maybe, but...

-

don't you have to pay back Pell Grants?

It's been a while since I got mine, but they also don't give you much money, at least not even close to as much as it actually cost to go to school.

I don't know anything about scholarships, but I don't think there are as many around as you say, but as always, I might be wrong.
==============

[xmas74]

78. It's a grant

Grants are free.

At my daughter's school scholarships were available from a foundation. They always had additional funds that no one applied for. Always.

As to the Pell, if used in a regular setting no,it's not enough. If used in the setting my daughter's university offered to high school students then yes, it was more than enough. Tuition for high school students was one third of the normal tuition. They didn't pay additional fees but could still use facilities. They rented textbooks.

I'm a single mom. I work in mental health. I'm above the poverty line but I definitely don't make the national average. My daughter was able to get 35 hours of college credit for about $100, the total cost of book rentals. It's available and it's out there. Expand on that instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

[csziggy]

11. My little sister skipped her twelfth year of high school and went to community college

She CLEPed a lot of the basic credits, took classes over the summer and graduated from high school with her class and got her AA degree at the same time. Since she had started first grade early at the age of 5, she was way ahead of the game. She breezed through her BA in business in a year and a half and was too young to sign contracts once she graduated.

Considering her mental problems, she would have done better to have taken it slower, but it's still impressive to know that it can be done.

[Amy-Strange]

15. That is impressive, and...

-

thanx for sharing.

Give her a hug for me!
====

[csziggy]

18. Thanks, but I don't talk to her any more

It got the to point where her mental problems tore apart our family and I couldn't deal with her anymore.

[Amy-Strange]

20. I'm sorry to hear that n/t

[JI7]

16. Students can go to 2 year college and transfer right now

[Amy-Strange]

19. Is it free?

-

because if it's not, why pay for college when we already pay for high school through our property taxes and such.
============

[JI7]

21. no, but it's not as expensive as 4 year schools.

[Amy-Strange]

22. How expensive is it, I mean compared to free...

-

because like I said, we already pay for high school.
========

[JI7]

24. and ?

[Amy-Strange]

25. Why pay for college, when we already pay for high school? n/t

[JI7]

27. They offer different things

[Amy-Strange]

28. And they can't also offer that in high school because... n/t

[JI7]

29. high schools are required to accept all students. There is more freedom in college

when it comes to which classes you want and more specialized courses.

[Amy-Strange]

32. So?

-

Are you saying it's impossible?

Sorry, but I don't believe in impossible?
===========

[unc70]

44. Free or nearly free in some states

TN has free tuition at its community colleges. I don't know the details, but see things announcing it when I visit there.

NC community college tuition is free for many students Under a variety of programs. In addition to technical training, the NC schools offer courses roughly equivalent to the first two years of undergraduate school. Those courses are fully transferable to the public universities of The UNC System.

I think your original OP is not the way to go. I am old fashioned and believe there is far more involved in what a university education is all about than just learning a trade.

[Amy-Strange]

52. That's a good start, and...

-

thank you for your input, although I still think free high school is better than paying for two-years of college, which brings up another rant.

Why do most online colleges cost more than physically going to the college?
===========

[Happy Hoosier]

50. Keep in mind, however....

That many universities will not accept all courses from CC’s because they do not meet standards. My wife’s university, for example, does not accept English course beyond the 100 level. The 200 level courses do not meet their standards.

[Amy-Strange]

55. Sometimes it's because the subject matter itself isn't transferable, but...

-

that doesn't seem to be the case with your scenario.

I wonder what that's all about?
===============

[Happy Hoosier]

58. The required courses...

Have specific requirements. So, a 230 literature class requires a certain number of papers of a certain length. This is to maintain some uniformity for a course offered in many sections. The local CC requires only one essay of much shorter length. They accepted this course for a while on a waiver, but determined the students transferring with that course did not have the necessary skills to succeed. So now that course does not transfer and students taking the University course have a higher success rate... but they are still being told by the local CC that all the courses transfer. :/

[Amy-Strange]

60. Ok, that actually makes sense, but...

-

why doesn't the CC fix that?

That doesn't make any sense.
=======

[Happy Hoosier]

61. No, it doesn't, but....

The local CC pays terribly. They have trouble hiring and retaining faculty of quality because they pay them like crap, and work them to death. In short, the faculty at the CC has trouble teaching the 200 level courses to the required standard.

[Amy-Strange]

63. That's too bad, and...

-

probably part of the problem.

I wonder why they don't pay them much, and then work them almost to death?

It'd also be interesting to find out how much everyone who doesn't teach there makes.
============

[Happy Hoosier]

64. Red state. Blah. NT

[ProfessorGAC]

77. Not Great Here Either

After I retired, I got a call from them because an electrical engineer I know teaches electrical & electronics classes there.
I don't need the money, so I wasn't looking for a gig, but teaching 2 chemistry classes paid $8,000 for the term.
That's probably 5 hours a day, 4 days a week, plus a 20 mile each way commute for $16k per year.
I could sub 4 days a week in Jr Hi & HS (I rarely do 4 days a week), 34 weeks a year and make the same money.
No paperwork, no grading tests or homework, no staff meetings, no accreditation reports, and the same pay.
I don't actually work 136 school days a year, but I get called enough that I could.
So, they don't pay much for people not on full staff.

[obamanut2012]

67. That is not true

[Happy Hoosier]

68. Umm... yes it is.

My wife is a University Professor and she deals with this issue daily. Why would I lie about this? They accept all the 100-level courses, but not all the 200 level courses.

[sarcasmo]

23. I will stick with my CDL from 1994 for 5 grand and zero college debt.

[Amy-Strange]

26. Good for you and yeah, student debt sucks. n/t

[KentuckyWoman]

31. No.

Not everyone is college appropriate. Don't water down the academics. It should be a challenge. It should not be backbreaking expensive for people who qualify academically.

Instead of college for all we need better vocational training in high school. It is completely stupid to have people have to spend more money and 2 years after HS to be LPNs or electricians etc.

[Amy-Strange]

34. Why wouldn't it be challenging in high school?

-

Besides no one would be forced to take the course that lead to an Associates Degree in high school. They could just drop-out, but I don't think that will happen, but that's just my opinion.

I do agree with your assessment concerning nurses and electricians, though.
===========

[KentuckyWoman]

36. Maybe I do not understand what you are advocating.

Drop out of high school?
Perhaps I am confused.

[Amy-Strange]

37. No, you're not confused...

-

because sometimes I don't explain myself very well, but I don't understand why you couldn't make classes challenging in high school, or work around all your other concerns?

Why should poor kids have to pay for a two year college and carry around a student loan debt, when we already pay for high school through taxes?

An Associate's isn't that great, but it's still better than a high school diploma, and no one has to accept it, they can just drop out and not continue on to college.

Does that make more sense?
===========

[KentuckyWoman]

42. You are talking money. I am talking education

At least I think so.

Not every high school student is college material. Leave high school alone. Multiple tracks based on ability and interest. A HS diploma should be worth something. We don't want drop outs.

Expand college presence in schools. Expand college offerings. Keep the academic requirements high. Provide a path to an Associate degree along side HS for those with ability.

At the same time challenge other kids not college bound. Add extensive in school vocational training for the gazillion jobs that now claim to need a college graduate but really don't. Add in those who will do better in skilled trades. Add in kids with basic iQ or other challenges who deserve good basic education.

You will meet your goal of mitigating cost and also supporting the wide range of abilities in schools. The idea of everyone in Associate degree or drop out just short changes too many kids.

[exboyfil]

46. I think your model makes more sense

For example my two kids did the college thing (engineer and nurse). A friend of ours told us about his grandson who was able to start at a major manufacturer right after high school. In high school he took a set of engineering technology courses like CNC programming. My impression is that there are more openings for these programs than interest and that is a shame.

[Amy-Strange]

48. Remember, when you make it harder for people to get an education...

-

because it cost more, you're shortchanging poor kids.

Do you really think kids would drop out because high school was more like college?

I don't think so, but one advantage would be that kids in high school would be taught something you can only really get in college.

Critical analysis skills.

All you get in high school are dates and facts to memorize.

That's boring as shit.
==========

[KentuckyWoman]

53. I was taught to think and decide.

College isn't required to to be able to think. If schools no longer equip children to plan, research, create, question etc, then fix the school ... for the sake of all the kids.

I strongly support college where it is really needed and strong financial assistance for those who keep up the academic requirements. But we also need to encourage non college people to seek and enjoy a lifetime of learning.

Heck, bring back Dewey Decimal if you have to. Haha.

[Amy-Strange]

54. Dewey Decimal System ha, ha...

-

You're dating yourself there young lady, but we can definitely agree that kids should be thought to critically analyze things and fixing schools with that in mind is a very good idea.

Regardless of whether it's done my way or your way.
==========

[exboyfil]

43. You have to be prepared to start the college classes when a Junior

in high school. For my daughter to take advantage of any sequencing she had be prepared to take Calculus I as a high school Junior. Most students probably aren't prepared to do this. Without doing it you are still looking at three years of engineering school after high school (still not a bad savings).

[betsuni]

40. I've always thought the last two years of high school were a waste of time.

Because they were for me. I wasn't planning on going to college, but after less than a year after high school realized my career choice wasn't for me after all, so I went to school. I was shocked how much I'd learned was either wrong or hopelessly shallow. And by 19 it's a little late to begin a real education. Then I understood my professor relative who said he had to undo the bad habits of his students their first year. His college now requires a number of remedial-type general knowledge classes before students can enroll in regular classes. A pre-101, and they boast of a high number of AP freshmen.

Early education should be so good that by what's now junior year in high school you can choose an academic (last two years more like first two years of college) or vocational path or have other choices while you're still young enough to make the most of learning ability.

[Amy-Strange]

45. Very insightful, and...

-

thank you.

College gives you the tools to critically analyze things, while high school just give you dates and facts to memorize.

That's boring as shit, and that's why turning high schools into two-year colleges, including those critical analysis skills, would go a long way towards giving everyone a real education, and also make high school less boring.
=============

[betsuni]

47. Exactly.

It's almost scary how few memories I have of my last two years of high school. I was there physically but not mentally. My real education began after school, with something I was actually interested in studying.

[Amy-Strange]

49. Calculus sucks!!!

-

I had a pre-calculus teacher whose accent was unbelievably hard to understand, and that's all you need when you're trying to understand a subject as complicated as that.

EDIT: CRAP, sorry, this was supposed to go to another post, but the sentiment still stands.

Calculus sucks!
===========

[exboyfil]

41. This is very doable - Both my daughters did it

Granted I had to pay a fair amount for them to do it.

My oldest finished high school with over 60 college credit hours and received her B.S. in Mechanical Engineering two years after high school education. She did it by taking a bunch of community college courses (many of them paid for by me but some by the high school) as well as General Chemistry from our local regional University (paid for by the school), two Engineering courses worth college credit at the high school, and four engineering courses online from the college she eventually attended (three of them paid for by the high school).

Her high school had Advanced Placement (she never took any of those courses) as well as the Project Lead the Way Engineering Courses (one applied directly to her ME degree and the other used a credit hour to satisfy a credit deficiency in another area). There were a bunch of other community college courses at the high school, but she didn't take them (it was easier to complete the online community college courses and there was little overlap).

My youngest had over 70 college credit hours when she completed high school. She got her B.S. in Nursing 15 months after high school graduation. Again I paid for a bunch of courses, but the high school did as well. She took her General Chemistry at the regional university like her sister and her Microbiology and Physiology from the community college. She also CLEPed Biology I and II allowing her to take a Junior Biology class will still in high school. She did have more courses from the regional university than her sister, and all of those were paid for by the high school.


The high school allowed the college classes to be transferred back for high school credit. So instead of taking non-college credit courses like high school English, Physics, and the various social studies; they took the college equivalent instead. In my older daughter's case, she skipped high school Pre-Calculus which would have taken as a Junior and took Calculus I from a Jr. College instead. At that point she was able to sequence the four semester college math requirement for engineering while in high school. This also allowed her to access engineering Physics while still in high school. It also allowed her to take the university offered engineering classes.

[MoonlitKnight]

56. They do this in other countries

It makes more sense to me.

[Amy-Strange]

57. Isn't all four years of college free in those places?

-

That's definitely better than my idea.
=========

[gulliver]

65. All free education to any level. Homework done with teachers. Lectures done remotely or via video.

A little of the old schoolhouse (kids of every age interacting). A lot of the Internet (learn on your own schedule). No more "Class of X year." No more elementary, middle, high school. Everything's a degree.

[BGBD]

66. There's no need

Most HS curriculum's offer a lot of AP courses that can count for college credit. I know some kids who have graduated with 30+ college credits already.

Beyond that, I think think we can hire enough teachers at the HS level who are qualified to teach college level material.

Just increase the roll of community colleges for offering cheap or free 2 year programs and make those easily transferable to state schools.

There are plenty of HS kids who aren't planning any college and won't benefits from an AA, but would detract from students who do want something an AA can offer.

[Amy-Strange]

70. I somewhat agree, but...

-

it's wrong to say that just because some folks don't want to go to college, that they won't benefit from an AA.

Having one is better than not having one, and what if they decide to go to college later? It certainly won't hurt financially to already have two years of college under their belt.
===========

[JCMach1]

71. The quality of instruction is already questionable

We are too far down the road to McEduction already...

The option of starting college early is already there for most students

[Amy-Strange]

72. True, and...

-

it does help, but it still leaves a lot of poor kids with no way to afford college, or take on a mountain of student loan debt.

An AA from high school would cut that cost in half, and besides, having one is better than not having one, even if they don't continue on to college, but it'll definitely help if they ever decide to go later.
========

[JCMach1]

73. Precisely where those opportunities need to be available

There needs be almost universal early admissions ... At the same time there also needs to be a new effort for vocational training inside HS's... Magnet schools in larger systems.

We need to dial schools down and education up.

[Amy-Strange]

74. Well said, and...

-

thank you for your input.
=======