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[kentuck]

This message was self-deleted by its author (kentuck) on Tue Jun 23, 2020, 02:28 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[soothsayer]

1. I think about that a lot during these statue-tearing times

I was sad, outraged.

Then I think the Dalai Lama reminded us it was just a thing.

[Hortensis]

51. I don't. Those were world heritages tragically destroyed.

I'm a big respecter of history, and these monuments, most of them erected to mark white power and superiority, will end up in museums and mostly dead-end display courts, where those who don't want to see them needn't.

It's the power of the toxic messages most were erected to deliver that is being destroyed.

[lagomorph777]

55. +1 Deliberate symbols of evil need not hold a special place in our hearts.

To compare Confederate traitors to the Buddha is just obscene.

[Jeebo]

2. It was outrageous.

Somebody -- the Smithsonian, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the British Museum, somebody, don't remember who -- offered to remove the statues to their museum, but the Taliban would have none of that. They thought that because the statues were representative of another religion, they were offensive, they were blasphemous to Allah, and they had to be destroyed.

They were also historic works of art, they were also cultural heritage icons, they were also priceless in so many other ways that don't even have to do with religious beliefs, but no matter to the Taliban.

I almost cried when I heard about that. Such a shame.

-- Ron

[Zorro]

6. Don't think those statues could be moved

They were gigantic, carved out of the side of a cliff. Wanton destruction, nevertheless.

[Igel]

65. ISIS et al. didn't just destroy them.

They tended to destroy anything that offended them. Hillsides, statues, graves, buildings, carvings.

They wiped out more than one Babylonian/Assyrian monument and destroyed more than one church.

In some cases they were "imperialist" but they were always offensive to them, and they could not allow offense to pass unchallenged. It made them feel inferior, diminished, humiliated, not properly powerful.

We may say that ISIS/Taliban are extremists. But a lot of Muslim sites are situated or taken over from Xian and Jewish sites (or Hindu sites). Must be triumphalist and as they take power displace and wipe out what went before.

Similarly Xian churches are often built over pagan sites.


Finding something exceptionalist in this is incorrect, whether exceptionally good or exceptionally bad.

[StarfishSaver]

3. You're really worked up about the statues, aren't you?

What a ridiculous comparison.

[kentuck]

13. No. Not really.

But I think some folks don't give a crap about whether or not Democrats win the next election?

[2naSalit]

15. Winning the election has little to do with statues.

[StarfishSaver]

16. LOL

Ok. Go with that one.

[fleur-de-lisa]

14. +1

[lapucelle]

39. Removing and destroying are not the same thing,

and the comparison with statues currently being removed is insulting. The Buddhas of Bamiyan were a world cultural heritage site,

https://whc.unesco.org/en/news/718Buddha statues of Bamiyan

[StarfishSaver]

46. Just as Buddhist statutes and Confederate monuments aren't the same thing

[cwydro]

56. You seem to be a tad worked up about them too.

[StarfishSaver]

60. Actually, I'm not

But I'm also not surprised that you would say that.

[cwydro]

61. I'm observant, and you have numerous replies on this thread.

It is what it is.

[StarfishSaver]

64. It never occurred to me that aeplying to a thread is a sign of being "worked up," but

since you spend an awful lot of time following me from thread to thread replying to my posts, I guess I should be flattered that you are so worked up over me.

[cwydro]

68. Really?

How funny.

I think you're mistaken dear.

[Newest Reality]

4. Yes, I do...

I felt that it was an excellent punctuation mark on the teachings of impermanence; a nod and a wink.

Everything comes, persists and goes. It is all merely phenomena that arises as appearances. Was there a buddha in the stone or dharma in the rock?

It pointed for me directly to our true nature, (buddha nature) at the core of the unity of samsara and nirvana.

I would say that was marvelous and auspicious. Other's might not agree, but that might not matter in a hundred-years.

[Mike 03]

33. I understand now.

But I didn't back when it happened.

But even that is saying too much.

Your pith instructions are always appreciated, NewestReality

.

[Newest Reality]

43. Ah! Be Well!

[Caliman73]

5. Yes.

I felt anger that a ridiculous repressive new regime with NO valid reason to destroy the history of a civilization that preceded them had desecrated world heritage.

[stillcool]

7. I remember when the statue of ..

Saddam Hussein came down, but that was a fake photo-op. And, I remember a lot of looting, but if I was an Iraqi, I don't think I'd mind that a bit. I'm sure some were very offended. But, what I really remember is Fallujah. Don't know if there were statues, but there were lots of dead people.

[cayugafalls]

17. Iraq lost lots of icons and historical records after the 2003 invasion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destroyed_heritage#Iraq

[stillcool]

30. I remember ...

a lot. So many things remind me of Iraq, and what was done there.

[Caliman73]

8. If this is related to the current statue toppling then this...

It is an ENTIRELY different perspective than what I feel when people in the US that have been excluded from full participation in society are reacting by taking down statues of the people that enshrined that disenfranchisement into society.

Now, I can have a nuanced discussion about why I disagree with the protesters taking down Jefferson and Washington statues, but that is not at all inspired by asking about the Taliban destroying the Buddhas.

Now if Buddhists had enslaved Muslims in Afghanistan and kept them out from participating in society for centuries, then we could have that discussion.

I am not an expert in the history of that region, but I know that Islam did not exist at the time those Buddhas were carved and there was no Buddhist dynasty ruling over Islam.

Instead of fishing for analogies, I think that there are enough intelligent people on DU to have a nuanced discussion about viewpoints on statues without resorting to poor analogies or to arguments that "Right wingers will use it as a weapon...."

[kentuck]

20. It's good that you can separate the two issues.

And see them in a different light.

I was curious to how many people would connect it in their minds with the tearing down of statues in this country.

It is two separate issues.

[Caliman73]

40. So why the interest in what the Taliban did almost 20 years ago?

I certainly connected them in my mind. My response was initially a one post response but I split it up to address the question directly.

It is two separate issues but again, why the question then?


The human mind is made up to form connections.

We make constellations out of groups of stars that are millions of light years away from each other on completely different and unrelated planes. We make 2 dimensional line drawings from at least 3 dimensional dots on the sky.

People connect the "cold" directly to getting the Flu, when we know that viruses cause illness, not cold. Cold causes hypothermia and frost bite, but not Colds, Flu, Pneumonia, etc... yet people always say, "put your jacket on when you go outside or you'll catch a cold."

Can you answer why you chose to post this Taliban thing now?

[kentuck]

53. I was hoping to provoke thought.

I guess I was not successful?

I do not personally agree with tearing down the statues of former Presidents. I do believe that statues of Confederate leaders should be removed from the public square. I do not think they should be destroyed. I think we should put them in a museum, so we can remember our history, and our future generations can learn from our history.

Although many see that the Buddhas' destruction was different than tearing down the present statues, many more do not make that distinction. It would be tragic if it gave the next election to Donald Trump, in my opinion.

[lagomorph777]

57. Statues of people are not people; statues of bad people are symbols of current repression

They should be melted down into something positive.

[kentuck]

63. My guess would be that there are many that would disagree with you?

You may be moral and right and still lose the political argument. Many of us are probably too focused on the politics of it all.

[JonLP24]

44. People here in the US don't understand the ideology of groups like the Taliban

It is an ultraconservative orthodox sect and they twist no idolatry to mean to prevent idolatry which is why they take down the statues.

Saudi Arabia Bulldozes Over Its Heritage

For centuries the Kaaba, the black cube in the center of Mecca, Saudi Arabia that is Islam’s holiest point, has been encircled by arched porticos erected some three centuries ago by the Ottomans, above dozens of carved marble columns dating back to the 8th century. But earlier this month, any vestiges of the portico and columns were reduced to rubble, cleared to make way for the Saudi government’s expansion of Mecca’s Grand Mosque.

The $21 billion project, launched in 2011, is designed to meet the challenges of accommodating the millions of pilgrims who visit Mecca and Medina every year. Around 2 million currently visit during Hajj alone, the annual pilgrimage that happens during the last month of the Islamic calendar. But activists charge that the recent destructions are part of a much wider government campaign to rub out historical and religious sites across the Kingdom.

Over the last few years, mosques and key sites dating from the time of Muhammad have been knocked down or destroyed, as have Ottoman-era mansions, ancient wells and stone bridges. Over 98% of the Kingdom’s historical and religious sites have been destroyed since 1985, estimates the Islamic Heritage Research Foundation in London. “It’s as if they wanted to wipe out history,” says Ali Al-Ahmed, of the Institute for Gulf Affairs in Washington, D.C.

Though the Saudi rulers have a long history of destroying historical sites, activists say the pace and range of destruction has recently increased. A few months ago, the house of Hamza, the Prophet Muhammad’s uncle, was flattened to make way for a Meccan hotel, according to Irfan Al Alawi, executive director of the Islamic Heritage Research Foundation. There have even been rumored threats to Muhammad’s tomb in Medina and his birthplace in Mecca.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/3584585/saudi-arabia-bulldozes-over-its-heritage/%3famp=true

This is a false equivalency.

[JonLP24]

52. Taliban is different than overall Islam

Saudi Arabia officially supported the Taliban in the 90s until 9/11. The Saudi government is a wahabbi government. Wahabbism is an ultraconservative orthodox sect and it was created in the 1700s and they fought several wars with the Ottoman Empire. They were backed by the British maybe at the very beginning if this book is accurate. Originally published in the same time period.

Mr. Hempher
Confessions of a British Spy

Description
Hempher, only one of the thousands of male and female agents employed and sent forth to all countries by this ministry, entrapped a person named Muhammad of Najd in Basra, misled him for several years, and caused him to establish the sect called Wahhâbî in 1125 [1713 A.D.]. They announced this sect in 1150. Hempher is a British missioner who was assigned the task of carrying on espionage activities in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Hidjaz and in Istanbul, the center of the (Islamic) caliphate, misleading Muslims and serving Christianity, by means of the Ministry of British Commonwealth of Nations.

https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-British-Spy-Mr-Hempher/dp/1910220159

Wahabbi War

The Wahhabi War or Ottoman-Saudi War (Turkish: Osmanlı-Suudi Savaşları, Arabic: الحرب العثمانية السعودية‎ was fought from early 1811 to 1818, between Egypt Eyalet under the reign of Muhammad Ali Pasha (nominally under Ottoman rule) and the army of the Emirate of Diriyah, the First Saudi State, resulting in the destruction of the latter.

The Wahhabi movement is a reformist revivalist movement within Islam founded by Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab that would lead to creation of the Emirate of Diriyah as he and Muhammad bin Saud launched their campaign to reform Islam and consolidate power in Arabia from their power-base, and its eventual crushing by the Ottoman Empire's Egyptian khedive Muhammad Ali of Egypt.

In 1802 12,000 Wahhabis sacked Karbala in Iraq killing up to 5,000 people and plundering the Imam Husayn Shrine.[2] By 1805, the Wahhabis controlled Mecca and Medina.[2] The Wahhabis also attacked Ottoman trade caravans which interrupted the Ottoman finances.[3] The Saudi amir denounced the Ottoman sultan and called into question the validity of his claim to be caliph and guardian of the sanctuaries of the Hejaz[4] and the Ottoman Empire, suspicious of the ambitious Muhammad Ali, instructed him to fight the Wahhabis, as the defeat of either would be beneficial to them.[3] Tensions between Muhammad Ali and his Albanian troops also prompted him to send them to Arabia and fight against the Wahhabi movement where many died.[5]

(Snip)

Aftermath Edit
Most of the political leaders were treated well but the Ottomans were far harsher with the religious leaders that inspired the Wahhabi movement, executing Sulayman ibn Abd Allah and other religious notables, as they were thought to be uncompromising in their beliefs and therefore a much bigger threat than political leaders. The execution also reflects the Ottoman resentment of the Wahhabist views.[4]

This war had formed the basic hatred against the Wahhabi ideology among the Ottomans, and it continued to influence even modern Turkey when Turkish Islamic preachers consider Wahhabism to be non-Islam; virtually Turkish population is anti-Wahhabism. For the Saudis, who would form the nation a century later, the Saudis considered it as the first struggle for independence from the oppressive Ottoman Empire, and the current state of relationship between Saudi Arabia and Turkey is still influenced by this hostile past, whereas systematic campaign by the Saudis to rewrite the Ottoman past was denounced in Turkey.[6][7]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi_War

The Ottoman Empire fought "terrorists" long before the US did.

When Saudi Arabia was first starting out they opposed the Hajj even though it was one of 5 pillars of Islam but they knew they couldn't remain credible in the region if they banned it so they regulate it.

[dhol82]

9. I was devastated at losing ancient art.

That was a new religion being pissy about an old religion. The taliban did not want alien iconography swaying the minds of their faithful.
It hadn’t been built to glorify evil men.
We can swap statues to reflect modern sensibilities. I just can’t see the equivalencies here.

[StarfishSaver]

18. Thank you

[Nevilledog]

28. +1

[SoonerPride]

11. Destroying statues promoting peace and enlightenment is not ok

Destroying statues promoting racism, hatred, and honoring traitors is not only ok but long overdue.

[cayugafalls]

12. I was kind of shocked and saddened by the destruction.

However the destruction of cultural icons is pretty normal all across the spectrum and throughout history.

So much so there is a wiki page devoted to it all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destroyed_heritage

Edited to add: I am no way implying that confederate statues are cultural icons.

[StarfishSaver]

19. Confederate statutes aren't "cultural icons" and bear no comparison to Buddhist statutes

Not even close.

[cayugafalls]

21. Oh, please do not misunderstand me. I'm sorry, that was not my intent.

I guess it was more meant for things like the Washington Monument or others...but I am in no way attached to things.

I never meant to imply that confederate statues were cultural icons. I don't think I did, but I will reread what I wrote and rewrite if needed.

Thank you.

[cayugafalls]

25. I updated my post to specifically state that confederate statues are not cultural icons.

I was speaking specifically about true cultural icons as mentioned in the op. I agree no comparison should be made and I did not make that comparison, however, I felt it necessary to clarify my statement for all concerned.

[StarfishSaver]

31. Thanks for the clarification

[cayugafalls]

36. Of course, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

[morillon]

38. Thanks for the clarification n/t

[packman]

22. In addition to the false comparisons

Followers of the Budda know that all things are transitory and at the moment. The world might have been outraged , but the followers of the path sort of shrugged their shoulders , hitched up their saffron robes and smiled at the whole thing



Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream,
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the brook,
If you catch a little fish
Please let it off the hook

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the creek,
If you see a little mouse
Listen to it squeak

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the river,
If the river gets you wet
Don't forget to shiver

[lunasun]

24. This didn't go well last try

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=13573882

[WhiskeyGrinder]

26. What the fuck is this shit right here.

[marble falls]

27. I'm trying to wrap my head around comparing 2,000 yr old statues of a peaceful person ...

with the 100 year old of statues of warriors fighting to keeping a people enslaved with the added soupcon of them being erected to keep those formally enslaved people reminded of their "place".

You'll excuse me if I don't get your point.

Screw those Confederate statue humpers, they don't seem like any Buddhists I know.

[Doreen]

29. BIG difference between a Buddha statue and a Confederate statue.

[Ex Lurker]

41. How about a US Grant statue? A Gandhi statue?

A Miguel Cervantes statue? All have been targeted. Shaun King wants ro remove art work of Jesus that doesn't fit his template. How about that?

[JonLP24]

45. Shaun King wants to remove white Jesus statues

I don't care either way. Bishop Talbert Swan calls out White Supremacy Christianity or evangelicals all the time.

Link to tweet

This back and forth between Talbert Swan & right wing Christians is entertaining as an atheist.

[Hekate]

32. Yes, I do remember

And to your point, I say we have tipped over the edge to fanaticism in this country when we cannot distinguish between monuments to actual traitors and monuments to those who wrote the foundational documents of our nation -- that is, the documents that call us to reinterpret them anew in every generation and make ourselves better.

To be pellucidly clear about my meaning: leave the monuments to Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln alone. For those who missed the news: there are those who want to topple them as well.

[TheFarseer]

35. I think

They should be put in a museum or sold to a crazy Rightwinger who can put them in his barn or something.

[eShirl]

37. are you saying the Confederacy superfans are a religious cult?

[StarfishSaver]

49. It's almost like someone sent people out to

compare American protesters to the Taliban ...

[applegrove]

42. Awful.

[zipplewrath]

47. Remember when we destroyed the German symbols?

We blew up swastikas and destroyed paintings of the Fuhrer.

How did that make you feel?

[StarfishSaver]

50. Boom!

[Celerity]

58. +100000

[ismnotwasm]

59. +infinity

[mopinko]

48. for the stone behind the buddhas would be my guess.

gemstone of all sorts have been pouring out of that country from day 1.
half the fun of an ied is picking up the gems that will be laying all over the ground. some even clarified by the heat of the blast.

soldiers makin money on that, too.

[Solly Mack]

54. It is impossible to have a true and factual accounting

of America's history without the stories of black people. Or original peoples or brown people or people brought in as "labor" from other countries.

But you know what? White America got around that by creating a narrative passed off as American history that told a tale of white people, primarily white males, that did everything.

The history of everyone else in America was either erased, denied, relegated to the dust bin, or reduced to they were slaves but we (white people) freed them.

Or they were savages we (white people) beat back. Or they were Chinese laborers or migrant workers. They did the menial but the real brains, the real builders were always white people. At least that's what the history books claimed.

When those Confederate statues went up they went up as a big Fuck You to black people. They went up to promote white supremacy by people promoting the lie of a "lost cause", where the Master was the real victim and they were simply fighting for their way of life instead of the actual history.

They were traitors fighting for the legal right to own other people. To enslave and abuse, maim, rape, and murder black people.

Those statues are not history. They are racist totems. Altars to a lie.

The Taliban was attempting to erase the pre-Islamic history of the region.

Much like white history books erased the history of black people. And not just black people.

I've seen posts after posts of people declaring they never learned about (fill in the blank with any number of massacres that happened to black people in America) while in school. Because those writing the history of America (white people) didn't include those things - and they didn't leave them out from ignorance, they left it out because firebombing American citizens is contrary to the cherished myths of American greatness.

People crying over someone erasing their history because of the statues of slave owners and Confederates coming down are the same people who have no problem with the actual erasing of the history of black people in America.

And there is no true American history without the telling of the truth about how white Americans treated/treats all Americans of color. Or the treatment of Jewish Americans and other non-Christians. Or the treatment of LGBTQIA Americans. Or the treatment of women. And the list goes on.

America could have told the actual history of the country from the get-go. It chose not to. It chose to filter out people and their contributions, as well as the bad things that happened to them.

That's the definition of erasing a people's history.

Taking down the altars to racism isn't.

[lagomorph777]

66. Thank you. Perfectly stated.

[hlthe2b]

62. Yeah.. I've thought a lot about those. While there is a big difference in taking down Confederate

monuments/statues--as well as other racist symbols, it still sets an uncomfortable precedent that I think we need to recognize. Now that at least one statue of an individual was apparently mistakenly taken down by those who did not know their specific history, I do have some concern.

[kentuck]

69. But it's not just "Confederate" statues.

It blurs the truth to say that and not mention the other statues that are being tumbled or attempted to tumble.

I think it is politically short-sighted and reckless. Is that the mountain we choose to die upon?

[Baitball Blogger]

67. Did the Buddha encourage hate crimes against another segment of the population?

[kentuck]

70. I am going to delete this post,

I don't see that it has any further productive discussion to offer.

[SKKY]

71. I do. And to be honest, I have an internal conflict about all this white-washing...

...of history. I get why we don't need to celebrate what they did, but we also need to learn from it. Whether we like it or not, it is a part of our history. For example, you can still tour Nazi concentration camps in Germany. So, I don't know. I care less about them being there than some folks care about them NOT being there, so I'll defer to them. I'm fine if they're not there, I just wonder if we will miss the lesson they can teach us.