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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNow this is just flat-out counterproductive and DUMB
Protesters pull down Hans Christian Heg statue in Madison Wisconsin.
Okay, I understand people are pissed and want their voices heard, but Heg was an immigrant who never owned slaves and actually fought and DIED fighting the Confederacy. Doing this in a swing state no less makes this potentially even more damaging.
How hard is it to quickly Google someone before tearing their statue down? Being a white man from the 19th century doesn't necessarily make the person bad.
Tim Carpenter, a Democratic Senator, also appears to have been assaulted during the protest. This crap needs to stop, or at least be directed towards the people that deserve it.
https://wkow.com/2020/06/23/protesters-pull-down-forward-statue-outside-state-capitol/
oswaldactedalone
(3,490 posts)Cmon people, stay focused and stop acting foolishly. It doesnt help. Weve got the momentum to change things on 11-3, dont blow it for the rest of us.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)We had a lot of anarchists/white supremacists mixing with protesters in the first week after the Floyd murder. Looks like they're back.
Ex Lurker
(3,813 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)cayugafalls
(5,640 posts)The message is getting muddied by a lack of critical thinking.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)These people imagine themselves on the brink of successful revolution, and whoever is not with them all the way to overthrowing the system is numbered among the enemy.
cayugafalls
(5,640 posts)For good or bad, it is what it is. Unfortunately, you said it quite well, they "imagine themselves on the brink of successful revolution", with 'imagine' being the key word.
Their reality may not play well for those of us who seek change in November.
We must win.
Celerity
(43,316 posts)smdh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Christian_Heg
Heg became a rising young politician who found slavery abhorrent. He naturally became an ardent member of the Free Soil Party.
Heg was a major in the 4th Wisconsin Militia and served as Wisconsin State Prison Commissioner. He was the first Norwegian-born candidate elected statewide in Wisconsin.
He soon joined the recently formed Republican Party. He was an outspoken anti-slavery activist and a leader of Wisconsin's Wide Awakes, an anti-slave catcher militia.
During this time, he sheltered Sherman Booth, who was made a federal fugitive after inciting a mob to rescue an escaped slave.
In 1860, Heg was elected commissioner of the state prison in Waupun, and served there for two years.
Heg spearheaded many reforms to the prison, believing that prisons should be used to "reclaim the wandering and save the lost.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)to nothing about history. Probably have no idea who the statues were or what they might stand for.
superpatriotman
(6,247 posts)Id estimate 10-12% actually know their history
More losing friends and losing elections at play.
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)superpatriotman
(6,247 posts)Cooler heads must prevail or we will start shedding support.
I dont think Americans want wanton destruction especially when its led by idiots.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)Sad.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Not sure that's a safe assumption.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)You think so?
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)And that's what they want.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)not believe it when I read people on DU cheering that shit on.
Thoughtless anarchy is not going to help our cause.
mahatmakanejeeves
(57,393 posts)I've always wanted to live under the Taliban.
Ilsa
(61,694 posts)Do we know that they weren't provocateurs?
When it comes to mobs, I question motivations and potential infiltration every time now.
Dennis Donovan
(18,770 posts)Hans Christian Heg (December 21, 1829 September 20, 1863) was a Norwegian American journalist, anti-slavery activist, politician and soldier, best known for leading the Scandinavian 15th Wisconsin Volunteer Regiment in the American Civil War. He died of the wounds he received at the Battle of Chickamauga.
Background
Heg was born at Haugestad in the community of Lierbyen in Lier, Buskerud, Norway on December 21, 1829. He was the eldest of the four children of an innkeeper. His father, Even Hansen Heg (17901850), moved his family to America in 1840, settling in the Muskego Settlement in Wisconsin. Hans Heg was eleven years old when his family arrived in Muskego. He soon earned a reputation for himself as being a gifted boy.
At twenty years old, lured by the discovery of gold in the Sacramento Valley, he and three friends joined the army of "Forty-Niners". He spent the next two years prospecting for gold in California. Upon the death of his father, he returned to the Muskego area in 1851. He married Gunhild Einong, daughter of a Norwegian immigrant.
Heg became a rising young politician who found slavery abhorrent. He naturally became an ardent member of the Free Soil Party. Heg was a major in the 4th Wisconsin Militia and served as Wisconsin State Prison Commissioner. He was the first Norwegian-born candidate elected statewide in Wisconsin.
He soon joined the recently formed Republican Party. He was an outspoken anti-slavery activist and a leader of Wisconsin's Wide Awakes, an anti-slave catcher militia. During this time, he sheltered Sherman Booth, who was made a federal fugitive after inciting a mob to rescue an escaped slave.
In 1860, Heg was elected commissioner of the state prison in Waupun, and served there for two years. Heg spearheaded many reforms to the prison, believing that prisons should be used to "reclaim the wandering and save the lost."
Statue of Col. Hans Christian Heg, Wisconsin State Capitol, Madison
Military service
With the outbreak of the Civil War, Heg was appointed by Governor Alexander Randall as colonel of the 15th Wisconsin Volunteer Regiment. Appealing to all young "Norsemen," he said, "the government of our adopted country is in danger. It is our duty as brave and intelligent citizens to extend our hands in defense of the cause of our Country and of our homes." The 15th Wisconsin was called the Scandinavian Regiment since its soldiers were almost all immigrants from Norway, with some from Denmark and Sweden. It was the only all Scandinavian regiment in the Union Army. On 8 October 1862, Colonel Heg led his regiment into its first action at the Battle of Perryville. Despite being under fire while being driven back several miles by the enemy, the 15th Wisconsin suffered few casualties and no fatalities. However, one of those hurt was Colonel Heg, who was injured when his horse fell.
Heg commanded the regiment during the Battle of Stones River. In response to his conduct at Stones River, Maj. Gen. William Rosecrans placed Heg in command of the newly formed 3rd Brigade of the 1st Division, XX Corps, Army of the Cumberland, on 1 May 1863.
On 19 September 1863, Heg led his brigade at the Battle of Chickamauga, where he was mortally wounded. Heg "was shot through the bowels and died the next day." [8] Upon hearing of Heg's death, Rosecrans expressed regret, saying he had intended to promote Heg to brigadier general. Heg was one of three Wisconsinite colonels killed in combat during the Civil War.
Heg was buried at the Norway Lutheran Church Cemetery near Wind Lake, Wisconsin.
</snip>
Auggie
(31,163 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Ex Lurker
(3,813 posts)The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)There is an endemic plague of these revolutionist larpers lurking about any real effort for reform and social justice. There are not many of them, but they get quite energetic at times....
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)...and probably intentionally so.
By just tearing down any statue on any basis, theyve successfully obfuscated the issue to the point of reductio ad absurdum and made a mockery and distraction out of it.
Surkovian styled propaganda does not always deny the truth but rather confuses the observer beyond all reason as to whatever the truth might be so leaving then numb and cynical to the actual truth.
So when the point of this past month isnt systematic racism and police brutality but rather the need to tear down a statue of Mr. Rogers for some odd reason, the former discussion loses all focus and appeal.
Statues literally arent going anywhere and we have plenty of time to decide which ones stay and which ones go.
Id much rather the discussion be about statutes, not statues right now.
2naSalit
(86,536 posts)Tipperary
(6,930 posts)Well said.
RVN VET71
(2,690 posts)But you have to listen, learn, and read to know what statutes need changing. Mobs don't care to read. The symbol of taking down a statue is eye-catching. Mobs like to cheer themselves (itself?) on.
So they move on Heg, not because he wasn't a hero of abolition but because the Mob didn't know, didn't care.
Mobs moved on a statue of Ulysses Grant, for chrissakes. The man who is most singularly responsible for beating the CSA and allowing the abolition of slavery to take place. Grant! And in London, on Churchill. Churchill, without whom it is not implausible to guess that citizens of Jolly Old would, today, be speaking German. That Churchill.
I know where my vote will go in November, so it makes no difference how savagely ignorant these mobs of foolish people act. I have nothing but support for the tearing down of CSA memorial statues, but fear for the leftward movement of American politics if the attacks on monuments to freedom persist.
Statutes not statues needs to be a rallying cry, but who in the crowd would listen?
live love laugh
(13,100 posts)BComplex
(8,036 posts)I don't think BLM protesters are pulling down statues of the good guys. Democrats are way smarter than republicans. And republicans will do ANYTHING to try to make democrats look bad.
Maraya1969
(22,478 posts)empedocles
(15,751 posts)Others just watch
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)They're effin' morons.
Ford_Prefect
(7,886 posts)Wawannabe
(5,644 posts)Calista241
(5,586 posts)What could possibly go wrong with that?
Ford_Prefect
(7,886 posts)If they are the party primarily and by a large margin specifically responsible for the outrage and the anger should they NOT receive the benefits of that energy?
Calista241
(5,586 posts)"we did our job, i'm taking a break" mindset. Meanwhile, the other side is going to be fired the fuck up. Do you think they'll just forget what we did, if it comes to burning down party offices?
It appears the police are largely on their side, especially if we do even a little of this 'defund the police' efforts espoused by some of our party.
Ford_Prefect
(7,886 posts)No one was inside at the time since it was the middle of the night. However, there were some quite distinct remarks and threats spray-painted on a nearby wall regarding the hate-mongering going on at the time. To the effect that what goes around is gonna come around.
The feeling I heard expressed on the ground was that while it was not the correct thing to do to the GOP office they had certainly invited an intense response given public speeches by candidates and overall party rhetoric.
Personally, I am not advocating such violence, not yet at least.
I can see that someone who had been personally attacked or had their friends or neighbors or family threatened, and who had been continually under threat may feel that the answer is to make those who enabled that hurt feel some of the pain. Especially since it is GOP Dogma not merely individual bigotry.
Yes, a blood feud is not tactically wise, however emotionally honest or just one might feel in pursuing it. I will answer that my own experience has been from early childhood until my last corporate job assignment that there are only 2 ways to deal with bullies when you cannot simply escape them. I have used both with equal effect.
marie999
(3,334 posts)If not them then whoever did it are stupid and should just stop tearing down any statues. Keep up with the peaceful demonstrations.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,326 posts)that the statues on the campus tell only one part of the state's story.
maxsolomon
(33,310 posts)So, put up a statue celebrating the bad part, so they can tear it down!
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,326 posts)Lonestarblue
(9,971 posts)It feeds into the narrative of violence for the sake of violence. The point has been made and the public is mostly on the protesters side, but that will change if things keep being destroyed. Now its time to petition state officials to remove any remaining offensive statues. Even Mississippi is trying to change it's flag to remove the flag of the Confederacy.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Where in Florida, the county where one of the worst race massacres in US history took place has petitioned the governor to remove a statue of a confederate figure from public view. Apparently, the republican controlled Florida Legistlature had passed a law that only the governor could ok removal of confederate statues. The situation points up two things, peaceful public shaming is working, and that we need to get rid of republican politicians everywhere.
jaxexpat
(6,818 posts)The BIG reason for wealth inequality in these here United States.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)And the less we draw attention to it and the more we continue to focus on the many, many, much larger awesome things that protesters and others are doing around the country, the less "counterproductive" this kind of thing will be
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)The imagery of a mob pulling down a statue is enormously powerful and washes away all else.
I think that your attitude on the issue highlights the key problem, IMO. We have people on our side that attempt to minimize street thuggery because of a misinformed adherence to an idea that clueless anarchy in any situation is likely to prevail.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Nothing like being lectured to about the damage "imagery" does by someone who won't stop talking about and thereby amplifying the imagery.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)There are protests all over the country there is going to be some group within a protest that we here at DU can do nothing about.
I don't think clueless anarchy prevails but I look at it like we are suffering under a pandemic that is unlike anything else I ever experienced, we have had Trump for four years, there was the George Floyd killing. All of this is incredibly stressful nothing about this is normal so I don't expect people to act normal.
In less developed countries when things break down a lot worse happens then pulling down the wrong statue.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)We have to keep focused on Trump's incompetence and grotesque damage to the nation like a laser beam. Anything that detracts from that is a problem.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Part of the reason why everything is happening is because of Trump's incompetence.
---'-'
The scenes have been disturbingly familiar to CIA analysts accustomed to monitoring scenes of societal unraveling abroad the massing of protesters, the ensuing crackdowns and the awkwardly staged displays of strength by a leader determined to project authority.
In interviews and posts on social media in recent days, current and former U.S. intelligence officials have expressed dismay at the similarity between events at home and the signs of decline or democratic regression they were trained to detect in other nations.
Ive seen this kind of violence, said Gail Helt, a former CIA analyst responsible for tracking developments in China and Southeast Asia. This is what autocrats do. This is what happens in countries before a collapse. It really does unnerve me.
(Snip)
Former intelligence officials said the unrest and the administrations militaristic response are among many measures of decay they would flag if writing assessments about the United States for another countrys intelligence service.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/cia-veterans-who-monitored-crackdowns-abroad-see-troubling-parallels-in-trump-handling-of-protests/2020/06/02/7ab210b8-a4f6-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html%3foutputType=amp
For every statue there will be another video of police brutality or police shooting.
I saw this earlier today
Link to tweet
Then you have the crazy stuff Republicans or Trump will say and their party doesn't check themselves as often as we do. We are so worried about what others will think will Republicans double down on the crazy
It is hard to explain. Everyone is out of control not just these protestors.
jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)In California or New York, an act of stupidity like this can be dismissed as a "blip". In an important swing like Wisconsin, however, it just might turn out to be a blob.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)But, for some reason, some people would rather obsess over a tiny handful of people doing something they think will scare some white people away instead of focusing on the the exponentially more powerful incidents, messages and images.
The only way the "blip" becomes a "blob" is if people obsess over it and try to blow it up into something equivalent to what's really happening out here.
Stop playing into their hands.
Polybius
(15,385 posts)Nothing wrong with posting the article, it's in LBN too.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)and amplifying it further.
But that said, why can't it be ignored? Why do you feel required to talk about it?
llmart
(15,536 posts)I have never been one for statues anyway. They are almost always of white men, as if they are the only people who contributed something to our country. I'm also not a fan of huge memorials.
Maybe that's just me.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)and erect statues of POC that have contributed mightily to our nation. Mobs pulling down shit are vastly counter-productive.
llmart
(15,536 posts)However, then we also need to erect statues to the women who have contributed mightily to this nation also, in addition to other ethnic groups and Native Americans too! Heck, if we erect a statue to everyone who contributed to our nation we can cover every bit of green space we have left! Where does it stop? Who gets a statue and who doesn't?
That's why I'm not much for statues.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)remove confederate statues, which are things of pure evil, IMO.
llmart
(15,536 posts)let's use Howard Zinn's book "A People's History of the United States" to teach history in high school. His is much more accurate than the one I was taught from in the 60's.
Also, there are a few holidays we can get rid of.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)mokawanis
(4,440 posts)is that the statue was pulled down to protest the arrest of an "activist" who was going around with a bull horn and a baseball bat for several days. Complaints were made and the police confronted him and ended up arresting him. I don't know the details yet, and maybe the cops could have handled it better than they did, but pulling down that particular statue was a stupid thing to do.
cilla4progress
(24,726 posts)who did this?