General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf you spend more time and effort complaining about racist white women being called "Karen"
than you do trying to understand, face, and address the very real damage these women are inflicting on African Americans every day - damage that has been occurring for decades and goes infinitely further and deeper than calling someone by another person's name - you are part of the problem.
Betty88
(717 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,155 posts)It's just lame and lazy now, that's all.
Not offensive. Just not very funny any more.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)We'll mark you down as not thinking it's funny anymore.
Now that that's been taken care of, you're free to go back to fighting racism.
stopdiggin
(11,248 posts)+ ill-defined -- the original meme was about totally clueless privilege run amuck -- "I'd like to speak to a manager."
Now we're talking about something that is often (in fact usually) quite different ....
Not funny anymore.
---- --- ----
SoonerPride
(12,286 posts)Because clearly Karens and Karening is the most important issue in the land right now
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It's the propensity of some white people to try to deflect any discussion about race and racism against black people into a diatribe about how white people are being victimized by how black people choose to cope with and address the racism we're consistently faced with - and then telling us how we should do it so that we don't make them in any way uncomfortable, while completely ignoring our pain and discomfort.
The whole "Not all Karens" thing isn't isolated. It's part of a pattern among some white people that needs to called out whenever it appears.
SoonerPride
(12,286 posts)Their shared victimhood isn't on trumpian levels, but it's on that spectrum.
CatWoman
(79,293 posts)^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!!!!^^^^^^^^^
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)becomes a "both sides" problem and takes a lot of the work off white people and puts it on BIPOC. After all, once we establish that being called Karen is just the same as being called the n-word, we're halfway to solving racism right there!!1!11!!111!!!!!!!
Celerity
(43,130 posts)Celerity
(43,130 posts)is a perfect example of white fragility
thank you so much for your multiple replies on this subject
Cirque du So-What
(25,908 posts)Some of us recognize this as a manifestation of divisiveness embraced by the shithead in the White House. Snark doesn't change its seriousness.
SoonerPride
(12,286 posts)Unless you want it to be.
But you do you.
Cirque du So-What
(25,908 posts)The divisiveness is a reflection of rhetoric emanating from the Oval Office. The racist behavior captured on a regular basis is a reflection of that divisiveness...but I believe you know that already. If you wanna deny it, then you do you.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It's hardly worth even mentioning.
For it to be getting the oxygen that y'all are giving it - and for anyone to try to claim this is a "manifestation" of anything that's coming out of the White House is ridiculous.
Cirque du So-What
(25,908 posts)Are you seriously suggesting that racists don't feel new freedom to express their bigotry openly since Cheeto Benito came to office? Hardly worth mentioning? I find THAT ridiculous.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)But if you think some people referring to racist white women as "Karen" is anything close to the racism being inflicted on black people, well.
It's almost like some white people are so upset that they're being left out of being the target of racism that they're just looking for excuses to scream "HEY! What about ME? I'M a victim, TOO!!! Somebody called a racist white woman Karen and that's not her name! It's not MY name, either, but that's SO UNFAIR to white women! Let's talk about ME!"
"And until we DO talk about me, I can't talk about racism against black people because they're driving me away!!!"
Cirque du So-What
(25,908 posts)The 'Karen' thing doesn't concern me in the least. The actions of Karens are terribly concerning.
Sorry for my misunderstanding.
tulipsandroses
(5,122 posts)Wonders how many times my cousin Felicia ranted about that term?
Wonders how many times people have complained about demeaning to anyone named Felicia
Wonders how many times people objecting to Karen, objected to Felicia
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)while thinking the label is stupid. And sometimes I wonder if using the name gives the impression the problem is a problem with racist white women rather than being way more systemic.
ETA: Lest anyone misunderstand, I am saying I agree with you. I loathe the term, but because of how it frames the issue and inserts an element of sexism to boot. I posted about how I hated it once, but that doesn't mean I am spending more mental energy on it than I am the systems, institutions, and attitudes that enable and embolden these women.
Sapient Donkey
(1,568 posts)I've been seeing 'Karen' used to label people of all races and gender.
johnp3907
(3,730 posts)Celerity
(43,130 posts)around for years and still maintains it salience and specificity.
A Karen embodies white privilege, entitlement, racism, and white fragility.
If those traits and behaviours are not applicable to a person, then they have no case nor cause to complain.
I do not use it any other way. Also, the fact that some people are named Karen has nothing to so with it. If the shoe fits, wear it, if not, then ignore.
All this angst over it just proves the point it is a valid meme.
It is a valid tool to name and expose white, racist women who use white privilege and systemic racism to attack
us people of colour, all whilst exhibiting tremendous hubris, arrogance, senses of entitlement, and white fragility.
I reject these silencing attempts that try and falsely conflate it (the Karen meme) with other things.
wryter2000
(46,023 posts)then they have no case nor cause to complain."
That's how I feel about the term wypipo. I do my best not to act like wypipo, and honestly, if I do, I want to be corrected (gently, if possible).
Although I'm white, the term makes perfect sense to me.
Response to johnp3907 (Reply #12)
ahoysrcsm This message was self-deleted by its author.
Laurelin
(518 posts)That I've given thought to ditching du over it.
I also find it offensive that you assume that, because I have friends named Karen and because I am offended, that I am obviously part of the problem of racism.
I've spent my life fighting for equality. I'm not blind to racism. I will continue to do everything I can to stop the truly horrible effects of our very unequal society. And I will continue to fight with my friends, many of whom are white women of the generation that was often named Karen (I have three very close friends named Karen, so yeah, common name in the women of a certain age group).
Yes, I know I grew up very privileged, being white and middle class in an era where being middle class was great, but guess what, i had to fight systemic sexism every step of the way, and this did not blind me to the much greater difficulties of my friends of color. And it did not stop me from fighting against racism.
But I had to watch Van Jones on CNN blame racism on my generation of white women, and guess what, that's prejudice too. Judging people by gender, sexual preference, age, skin color, and name, for God's sake, is Just Wrong.
And stupid. Maybe don't alienate the people who march beside you.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Then you were never there.
malaise
(268,717 posts)Celerity
(43,130 posts)fleur-de-lisa
(14,624 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)"if you don't agree with us about this, you never agreed with us about anything. We get to direct your thinking, and if you don't go along, you are part of the problem, you are not getting it." Logical fallacies are not argument, just a dodge of an issue.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)I assume that's some kind of a threat that you're going to stop "marching beside" us if we don't behave the way you want. That kind of "I'm with you if you're nice to me, otherwise, I'm ditching the cause" self-centeredness is the last thing the movement needs - and it's exactly the kind of attitude my OP is calling out.
Bye, Felicia.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)What march is that?
Celerity
(43,130 posts)MarcA
(2,195 posts)RobinA
(9,886 posts)with this thinking on here. People like to say what white people think, and these days it's OK to tell white people what they think and then argue with them and call them fragile when they don't agree. Only time will tell if pissing people off is an effective way of getting them to change their thinking. I'm doubtful, but we'll see.
Response to Laurelin (Reply #13)
ahoysrcsm This message was self-deleted by its author.
tinrobot
(10,887 posts)You can address racism and also dislike a stupid pejorative at the same time.
LakeArenal
(28,806 posts)Folks on Du have asked nicely not to use it.
This is where we are.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)LakeArenal
(28,806 posts)LuckyCharms
(17,414 posts)"Karen", and make an assumption that the people who post their opinion about that one subject are not deep thinkers, and view that their entire thought process about everything that is happening in the world is based on that one opinion, and that they never have posted about anything else, or given deep thought to any other other issues, or that they have no feelings about any other subjects, or that each one of their posts is not just a small subset of their entire world view...
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)my OP isn't addressed to you.
In other words, if I wasn't talking about you, I wasn't talking about you.
fleur-de-lisa
(14,624 posts)Tipperary
(6,930 posts)There are some here who seem to believe they can tell others what to think or what to post. Kind of authoritarian in my opinion.
LakeArenal
(28,806 posts)Tipperary
(6,930 posts)Usually by the same few.
LakeArenal
(28,806 posts)enid602
(8,594 posts)It's not fair to Billie Jo, Betty Jo and Bobbie Jo.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)that the anything they will do is vote for Trump, just to make progressives go away for making them feel bad about themselves.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)it's not really something to worry about.
(2016 was not one of the elections they picked the Democrat.)
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)but wouldn't it make sense to try to keep them on board for this election?
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)They're not on board anyway and are just looking for an excuse besides their own issues. Blaming black people for saying Karen as the reason they won't vote for Biden is just stupid.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)with the "Karen" thing is that it seeks to use a label to bash an identifiable segment of society, specifically white women, particularly living in the suburbs. Decry the behaviors of the specific individuals, but when the broad brush comes out, don't expect them to understand why they're being targeted.
I liked the 2018 blue wave. No, it didn't go as far as it needed to, but it was a start. I see it as being counterproductive to alienate the people who can be moved to our side.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)know as "Karen" is enough to keep them from voting Democratic, they're not voting Democratic anyway.
And I don't buy the idea that we're supposed to jump through all manner of hoops in order not to offend and to be sure to please every single white person we think might possibly vote for Democrats. I'm sure there are some white women - and white men - who would love it if black people gave them pedicures once a week and doing so might get us a few more votes. That doesn't mean we need to do it just to get those votes. I feel the same way about tone policing black people in order to attract more white voters.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)make sure that the Democratic platform this year calls for as many radical things as possible, and even get Joe Biden to verbally endorse them, and see how that works out. Because the only people we need are the ones who agree with us on 100% of everything, if they can't do that, then they're not "pure" enough to be part of the revolution.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)and include in the platform a commitment to repeal the Voting Rights Act since that would appeal to lots of white people who might not otherwise vote for us.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)Not even the Trump humpers.
But, there are calls for reparations, and Trump would giggle with delight if he heard that Joe Biden was backing this concept.
When we come at swing voters with anger, more anger than Trump, don't be surprised if they turn away from both sides.
wryter2000
(46,023 posts)Seems like white people can spot a Karen, too.
delisen
(6,042 posts)and using the term Karen is a way to distract from the fact that our country's leadership remains predominately white male.
We cannot forge a democracy until that domination ends.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)It's a role that must be reckoned with.
LizBeth
(9,952 posts)It had noting to do with "handmaidens of white supremacy". I was hearing about it for about a year in my job as front desk in an hotel. Mostly young people going after the upper middle class white woman making unreasonable demands.
stopdiggin
(11,248 posts)to be something substantially different than it started out.
(I don't have any real problem with "Karen" .. I just think it is way over-used, and not very effective.)
LizBeth
(9,952 posts)I mean, simply getting things settle at dentist office, trying to get a situation resolved so I am not feeling pain has me being extra gentle in delivery tippy toeing all over the place so I am not dismissed and ignored as a mere Karen. It has been creeping into my life and hey... Everyone likes me and still, I see the issue with it, too.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)White women lined up with white men to push him over the top.
They need to stop blaming the white men and own their own shish.
mcar
(42,278 posts)betsuni
(25,380 posts)you do not stop calling her a Karen. By Leo Tolstoy.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Celerity
(43,130 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)of 2018 was suburban white women coming over to vote Democratic. They were pissed at Trump capping state and local tax deductions at $10K, and wanted to punish him and the GOP for doing that.
Since then, some may well have decided to shift the blame to state and local officials for getting their state and local tax bills over $10K. Insulting those women by labeling them as "Karens" is not going to keep them on our side when we need them the most.
roamer65
(36,744 posts)I call them white entitled assholes. Right to the point.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)LizBeth
(9,952 posts)Karen started with middle aged white women complaining. It has morphed into bigoted white women attacking POC. It still has its roots with women complaining. What I am finding is it allows anything a white women says to immediately be dismissed as being a Karen, to sit down and shut up.
On the other hand I have spent a lifetime fighting bigotry in whatever shape it comes in. There is no way I want to demean or dismiss the very real bigotry so many white women, not a majority who are allies, use their white privilege in attacking and hurting POC.
I will never be more concerned about the discrimination ultimately being created for women as a whole than for when a POC is being attacked, but the reality is, it is there. It is once again having women's voice manipulatively being dismissed.
There are nuances in life. This is one of them. The more open we are, the better we can address for all.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)describe "women complaining."
If that's happening, it's being done by white people, mostly white men.
Anyone who is upset about that should go talk to them instead of complaining about how black people use the term.
LizBeth
(9,952 posts)I explained the inherent sexism in our society and how this is feeding it. No more or less. That is not what you addressed, and I am good with that. I put out a perspective for consideration. You tell me to have that conversation elsewhere.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)you do indeed need to take that elsewhere since it has no place in a discussion about racism inflicted on black people by racist, entitled white women.
LizBeth
(9,952 posts)You started a thread stating if women had an issue, then they are racist. I disagree. I can recognize the inherent sexism in this creation for a woman that complains and being dismissed and the ramifications WHILE each and every time stand with the black community as their allies.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Do not mischaracterize my comment in order to make whatever point you're trying to make.
LizBeth
(9,952 posts)you, too, have been doing a bit of "mischaracterize my comment in order to make whatever point". If you were not stating part of the problem is racism, then, my bad. I ask for the same consideration that as a woman who has endured a systematic discrimination in place that be considered. No more or less, again. Not at the expense of blacks or their experience. Not in a manner to dismiss or minimize their very real call out. I support the black community 100%. I did in the past, I do presently and I will continue to do so in the future. What I am made of and not gonna be different for any reason.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)The problem of racism goes far beyond individual racists and their racist acts.
And your experience as a woman does not equate with the harm that racism inflicts on African Americans.
LizBeth
(9,952 posts)inflected on women and girls. Absolutely. The point?
Caliman73
(11,726 posts)Some of the concern over the term Karen is that it is starting to be used as a general term describing any woman that argues something.
Misogyny is as deeply rooted as racism is and we need to be mindful of that and be able to call out both.
In the instances where White women are specifically attempting to use their status to harass Black people, I am in total agreement. The problem is White Supremacy not sexism.
delisen
(6,042 posts)hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)I dont think disliking the Karen thing makes me a racist. I think some of us envision a society where the woman on the street corner in the yellow tshirt screaming obscenities....replaces the White/Black woman screaming obscenities...
See my point? Dare I hope for that one day?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)jcgoldie
(11,613 posts)Is there a similar one for male racists?
It just seems to be calling out a person's ignorance by relying on other sexist stereotypes which are arguably just as deeply ingrained in our culture as racism.
Celerity
(43,130 posts)snip
How the Karen meme relates to the violent history of white women
The historical narrative of white womens victimhood goes back to myths that were constructed during the era of American slavery. Black slaves were posited as sexual threats to the white women, the wives of slave owners; in reality, slave masters were the ones raping their slaves. This ideology, however, perpetuated the idea that white women, who represented the good and the moral in American society, needed to be protected by white men at all costs, thus justifying racial violence towards Black men or anyone that posed a threat to their power. This narrative that was the overarching theme of Birth of a Nation, the 1915 film that was the first movie to be shown at the White House, and is often cited as the inspiration for the rebirth of the KKK.
If were thinking about this in a historical context where white women are given the power over Black men, that their word will be valued over a Black man, that makes it particularly dangerous and thats the problem, says Dr. Apryl Williams, an assistant professor in communications and media at the University of Michigan and a Fellow at the Berkman Klein Center for Internet & Society at Harvard who focuses on race, gender and community in digital spaces. White women are positioned as the virtue of society because they hold that position as the mother, as the keepers of virtuosity, all these ideologies that we associate with white motherhood and white women in particular, their certain role in society gives them power and when you couple that with this racist history, where white women are afraid of black men and black men are hypersexualized and seen as dangerous, then thats really a volatile combination.
Williams says the exposure is challenging this position. Thats part of what people arent seeing is that white women do have this power and theyre exercising that power when they call or threaten to call the police. As might be expected, the Internet has found a way to jest about this power dynamic, but the very nature of a humorous approach presents a risk by downplaying the threat. The violent history is why Williams cautions against letting the at-times humorous nature of Karen memes minimize the ways in which white womanhood has long posed danger to Black and brown lives. On the one hand, the humor is a way of dealing with the pain of the violence, so in that way its helpful, but on the other hand, the cutesy-ness or the laughability sort of minimizes or masks the fact that these women are essentially engaging in violence, she says.
The fact that Amy Cooper is saying, Im going to call the police and tell them that a African-American man is threatening my life is a very racially violent statement and a racially violent act, especially if you look at it in a larger, broader historical context, and think about the way that Emmett Tills accuser [Carolyn Bryant] did the same exact thing and it resulted in his death. Thats not to say that memes arent ultimately beneficial, however. According to Williams, Karen memes can serve different purposes for different audiences. For white people, it can help them recognize a pattern of behavior that they dont want to be a part of it, but might be complicit in and can be an easier way to have a conversation about white fragility, entitlement and privilege; it also holds them accountable for racism. For Black people, the memes can act as a news source, evidence, and an archive of the injustices, the attempts to control bodies and situations, or as Brock puts it, microaggressions that often scale to macroagressions when the police are called in.
snip
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Thanks for sharing it.
RobinA
(9,886 posts)that the Amy Cooper narrative doesn't get a bunch of any color women injured or worse because they are afraid of calling for help when they feel threatened by a man of whatever race.
This article just makes me shake my head. It's a remade, dressed up version of the old one about how women, white women in this case, cry rape to get men in trouble.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Not that she weaponized her whiteness and structural racism to get back at a Black man for wanting her dog on a leash?
Wow.
Celerity
(43,130 posts)Just wow.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)One was that being called Karen is as bad as racist tomahawk imagery at sports events.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)is specialized.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)offer.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)At least if a white woman marries a white man it is. I was surprised how much of a difference it made in how people treated me when I got attached to a white man.
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)Many of us mere humans are capable of multi-tasking. And it's never wrong to expression compassion for a situation where people can be feeling pain.
33taw
(2,436 posts)Ive wasted more time on this thread. Z
Bettie
(16,076 posts)Seriously, if you are more angry about what they are called than what they are doing, then there's a problem.
Ilsa
(61,690 posts)People can multitask. And DU isn't a single subject discussion board.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)cayugafalls
(5,639 posts)The distinction is what gets some peoples knickers in a bunch.
The obvious KKKaren is a racist white women attacking and using her white supremacy to oppress minority groups.
The lessor Karen has been co-opted by YouTube creators to name call any white woman who is argumentative or presents herself assertively. There is ad revenue to made in the meme on YT and it has sparked labeling obvious non-racist acts as Karens and I think this is where the disparity lies.
I just wanted to point this out, as I think some people are confused as to what is going on in the culture of meme shaming.
I could be wrong, this is just my observation.
LizBeth
(9,952 posts)aquamarina
(1,865 posts)most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time. And no, I don't accept your conclusion that I am part of the problem if I don't agree with your ridiculous statement.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)And ditto.
DIVINEprividence
(443 posts)Lets keep our eyes on the prize. Massive victory in November which will give us the political power to really address these issues.
countryken
(114 posts)They should be called out, but it sucks for my sister-in-law named 'Karen'.
GeorgeGist
(25,311 posts)that you ignore at your peril.
Calling out racists isn't for snowflakes.
Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)
morillon This message was self-deleted by its author.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)You, Miss Lady, are my new hero ...
Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #105)
morillon This message was self-deleted by its author.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)IronLionZion
(45,380 posts)because they fit the description. And that's the point.
Racism is worse than being accused of racism, but they are both bad in different ways. So the fact that white women don't want to be associated with the Karen stereotype should help them understand why black people don't want to be assumed to be criminals.
Calling the police on someone for living life is always worse than being accused of looking like someone who would call the police on someone for living life. So the Karen stereotype should help white women understand the issue.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)Thank you.
Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)
morillon This message was self-deleted by its author.
List left
(595 posts)I have watched the recent seemingly unending stream of Karen videos with both horror at their actions, and hope seeing the outcome of almost universal denouncement. I understand that some of the public corporate response may not match personal beliefs of individuals in the corporation, but the speed and clarity of the response is encouraging.
I have a friend who was walking in a park and came across a group of white teenage boys who were drunk climbing in a tree overhanging the water. when she suggested that it was not safe they all started chanting Karen Karen. This had nothing to do with racism but was co-opting the anti Racist anti-Karen movement to be defiant. She is not racist and was deeply shocked. When they do this to her they are undermining the meaning and cultivating the same attitudes we are trying to overcome.
There should be no tolerance for racism period.
All lives can not matter until Black Lives Matter.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)You're now in "what about black on black crime?" territory.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Are you aware of what Black people in America are dealing with? Watch the news. If you are that concerned about people being called Karen unfairly but you are not falling apart over the senseless and needless killings of Black people in the US, then there's something seriously wrong.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)How unspeakably awful that must have been for her.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,046 posts)I just keep thinking about all the Karens I've known that were not "Karens".
Straw Man
(6,622 posts)... help the fight against racism, then you are part of the problem.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)In fighting racism because a stranger posted an internet meme they didn't like?
Straw Man
(6,622 posts)I didn't say they do harm. I said that they don't help.
They're a waste of time and effort, and they give people a spurious sense of achievement.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)And since you likely don't know the vast majority of people who use the term, what their motivations and private thoughts are, you really aren't in any position to determine what sense of anything they get out of it.
Straw Man
(6,622 posts)It doesn't take a psychoanalyst or a personal friend to know that when people get all self-righteous about defending something, it means that they think it's something of value, i.e.an achievement. It isn't.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)I said they are no more a waste of time than complaining about them is.
Straw Man
(6,622 posts)Then you said that making them is no more of a waste of time than complaining about them. You didn't say that it was less of a waste of time or not a waste of time at all. Logically, then, they are equivalent wastes of time.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)My comment illustrated a simple equation: If A is no more of something than B, it means that A is either equal to or less than B in that particular regard. It does not mean that it is equivalent and it could, in fact, be zero.
If A is no more a waste of time than B, it means that A represents the same waste of time as B does or less of a waste of time or no waste of time at all.
And now this discussion about this sub-topic has become a waste of time for me.
Straw Man
(6,622 posts)Neither of which you stated. Both would have been germane to the argument.
If you say "A is no more of a waste of time than B," that is an admission that A is in fact somewhat of a waste of time, especially since you kicked off the thread by characterizing B as a waste of time.
EllieBC
(2,990 posts)entitled bitches or entitled dicks.
Mostly because Karen has been overused. Someone disagreeing with you isnt a Karen but its used that way now.
So the women who would have been called Karen originally Ill just call entitled bitches.
JCMach1
(27,553 posts)With an older white woman who refused to refund a reservation (hotel) where they had not reserved the proper room this Wed. Evening.
When I asked to speak to the manager, she threatened to call police. We are an interracial couple. My wife is from Africa.
We got our refund after having to threaten them to take this to the media.
And yes,.this kind of garbage happens more than you can imagine.
I never called her a Karen (I don't personally use it), but did she deserve it? Quite probably
LizBeth
(9,952 posts)care if we get along or like each other. I want to resolve the problem so you will go away. I have watched others though purposely make it harder because they decided they were not respected or whatever.
JCMach1
(27,553 posts)VIPs for years, my wife is always much cooler than I am. The lady just cut her off and refused to listen.
Not quite as bad as someone asking you about your son's maid (yeah that has happened), but it was pretty bad.
So yeah I do understand a little bit about the grind of it all.
Having said that, where we did end up staying had some actual very nice obviously red state people staying there.
Remember when Right-wingers weren't such douches about it? Sigh
gulliver
(13,168 posts)It's actually just lossage, all this "Karen" bullshit. It's babyish. Feels great. But so does Trumpism to its victims. No one disputes that certain people fearing black people and, say, siccing the law on them for no reason is bad. But just call out the cases when they happen, and associate the cases with individuals. The people you insist on calling "Karens" will get it. But call them "Karens" and they won't. This is not a mystery.
We've got Republicanism to defeat here, and the Karen crap hurts the cause. Let the so-called Karens self-identify. They will. It's not on someone else to do it. They'll get it wrong. They'll hurt the cause.
kcr
(15,315 posts)It's about all women. It isn't okay to call any woman the b or c word, even if you think they deserve it. The "they deserved it" excuse is used to defend every other slur. Karen may have started off as a meme calling out racism, but it has evolved into a way to call any woman they don't like a bitch without actually saying it. Plus, I think calling a racist a racist is far more effective.
CatLady78
(1,041 posts)I hear you StarfishSaver and get what you are saying. I generally agree with your posts about bullshit deflection tactics/intellectually dishonest arguments.
But possibly some posters who dislike this, are not supporting racists or dismissive of racial injustice. They are probably not driven by prejudices against black men or more broadly even against men who face class based, religion based or any prejudices. It is the worry over actual predators or conniving, bullying misogynists (think incels, men's right activists, bros, pickup artists, rooshv, stickman) will try to weaponize internet stereotypes.
There is a tendency amongst a specific set of predatory misogynists to leap at any available opportunity to represent all women as generally more emotionally/mentally unstable than men. And as more liable to make false allegations than men. It is not all or even most men but it is a particular creepy subset.
In the wake of metoo (which is not a perfect movement but a very necessary one), a lot of women have been emboldened to speak out against living and working conditions they find hostile, demeaning, violating and infantilizing. We have to balance criticism of dishonest women or women who actually weaponize their privilege or status (and usually to disproportionately affect men without much power), with a recognition of the continuing perpetuation of harmful stereotypes of women as hysterical, deceitful,irrational etc. Women are still often perceived as illogical and as unreliable narrators.
A large % of women (including relatively priviliged women) would not want to make dishonest/inaccurate accusations or be oblivious to their own biases/lapses in logical thinking.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)There are no doubt many people who object to the term for the reasons you eloquently explained.
But my OP wasn't referring to them. It is expressly directed to people who "spend more time and effort complaining about racist white women being called 'Karen'" than they do "trying to understand, face, and address the very real damage these women are inflicting on African Americans every day."
The people I'm addressing aren't in the category of people you're describing who have real concerns about misogyny. I'm talking about and to the ones whose "concern" about the term "Karen" is just part and parcel of their consistent pattern and practice of denial and dismissal.
Most of us probably know who they are. They're the ones who insert themselves into every discussion about the very real phenomenon of racist white women accosting, demanding papers from and threatening the well-being of black men and women over and over, arguing the black person actually deserved it and, when that doesn't work, try to deflect by picking fights about how white women are being victimized because some people employ a shorthand word to describe this behavior.
And nine times out of ten, these are the same people who ALWAYS engage in these tactics whenever race is discussed, even when names aren't involved. Police shooting? He shouldn't have resisted or run. Protests? What about the looting. Black guy arrested in Starbucks for not buying a latte fast enough? He should have been more polite to the manager.
If you pay attention to who's saying what from topic to topic, you'll find that usually (although not always) the same people who consistently try to undercut discussions about race by blaming the victim also are the most adamant in their complaints about the poor, put-upon Karens of the world. And they have demonstrated no interest in or concern about the racism these women and others inflict on African Americans.
People who engage in this couldn't care less about the very real concerns you're talking about. Their goal is to disrupt, either because of a visceral need to "circle the wagons" whenever they think their fellow white people are being called out or because their purpose is to thwart everyone else's ability to have a meaningful discussion of the topic.
So, yes. Some posters who object to racist white women being called Karen are objecting for reasons unrelated to lack of interest in racism. But they're not the subject of my OP.
CatLady78
(1,041 posts)I do appreciate your patient and thoughtful reply and get your frustration. I pretty much knew that that is what you meant. I know it is annoying for you to have to explicitly spell these things out :-/.
Some of it is a problem with discourse over the internet and some of it is genuine disruption. The disruptors suck up a lot of time and energy.
The most useful thing one can do is listen respectfully to the actual concerns posters like you voice and understand where you are coming from.
edhopper
(33,484 posts)is a very Karen thing to do.
Progressive dog
(6,899 posts)seem like a good way to win friends or influence people. IMO It does move the user a little higher on the childish scale every time they use it.