UW-Madison students call for removal of Lincoln statue

[milestogo]

MADISON, Wis. — After protesters tore down two statues at the state capitol, attention is now turning to the statue of President Abraham Lincoln at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

The statue has overlooked Bascom Hill for more than a hundred years and is a staple of graduate photos, but what he symbolizes for marginalized students isn’t land-grant universities or even emancipating slaves.

“He was also very publicly anti-Black,” said Nalah McWhorter, the president of the Wisconsin Black Student Union. “Just because he was anti-slavery doesn’t mean he was pro-Black. He said a lot in his presidential campaigns. His fourth presidential campaign speech, he said that he believes there should be an inferior and superior, and he believes white people should be the superior race.”

It’s a not-often-taught fact about Lincoln, but it’s true. It is part of why she and the rest of her organization are pushing to get him removed, and Lincoln isn’t the only one.

https://www.channel3000.com/uw-madison-students-call-for-removal-of-lincoln-statue-just-because-he-was-anti-slavery-doesnt-mean-he-was-pro-black/

How many white people were pro-black in the 19th century?

[cabot]

1. Just have no statues of people, period

Everyone has done or said something shitty or horrible. Just have statues of objects: giant donuts, ferns, dogs - puppies - puppies are always good.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

13. Statues of donuts? Your idea is full of holes. NT

[mercuryblues]

17. You made my eyes glaze over.

[cabot]

31. Then my job here is done.

[cabot]

30. Nice one! LOL NT

[rusty fender]

72. Horses make good statues

Some of the finest statues ever are of horses. See: Europe

[PTWB]

2. The history catches up ...

This is the problem with monuments and statues in general (and especially of old white men). Even men who did very good things had some very nasty beliefs and did some very nasty things. We ought to teach about our founding fathers in the history books - teach all the good, and all the bad right along with it - and get rid of all of these monuments to a bygone era. It is past time we move on from idolizing the white men of yore.

I can't wait to see Mt. Rushmore returned to its natural splendor.

[cabot]

3. I've never understood the concept of carving faces into mountains

Have they never heard of erosion?

That said, I agree with you. It will be nice to see Mt. Rushmore return to its natural state. My parents took me to see Mt. Rushmore when I was a kid and those giant faces scared the hell out of me. (true story)

[former9thward]

85. Mt. Rushmore in its "natural state" would just be another hill in the region.

No one would have ever heard of it.

[milestogo]

4. Lincoln kept the country from disintegrating and he was a really good man.

We need a few imperfect idols. He should be one of them.

[PTWB]

6. Teach about him extensively. Don't idolize.

How would you feel being a Native American knowing he was responsible for executing your ancestors? Or being an African American and seeing a monument to someone who believed you to be inferior?

[Skittles]

24. men back then all thought they were superior to women

should women be offended by ALL male statues?

[dsc]

34. and anti LGBT sentiment was rife as well

so that would eliminate pretty much all statues.

[PTWB]

45. We shouldn't have them.

I’m fine with moving them to a museum where the good and bad can be described.

[Skittles]

51. America would have been cut in two without Lincoln

I am fine with the Lincoln statue.

[PTWB]

52. Im fine with it in a museum of American history.

[Skittles]

53. and l like it where it is

over and out

[PTWB]

57. Many people like it where it is.

But that number is shrinking.

[Tipperary]

111. So do I. nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

9. Why do we need idols?

[SammyWinstonJack]

93. Wonder that myself.

[dem4decades]

5. Lincoln saved the Union. Let's not get carried away with the hate. It will bite you in the ass.

[Caliman73]

20. It isn't hate.

Not wanting a statue is not the same thing as hate.

We put up statues to honor people, to hold them up as examples.


I am not necessarily in agreement with taking down the Lincoln statues but it is worth a conversation.


The thing that Americans often miss with the story of the Civil War is that abolishing slavery did not mean abolishing White Supremacy. "The North" was not immune to racism and discrimination even as it battled the South to abolish slavery.

Lincoln's views about Black people evolved and while he was campaigning for the candidacy of a party that believed in White Supremacy, he had to make sure that he spoke the language. He did see slavery and racism as evil, especially as the War progressed.

Like I said, it is a discussion that needs to be had.

[SiliconValley_Dem]

104. hahaha! hilarious. the notion that Lincoln shouldn't be honored

is a downright joke and shows how pathetic our modern toxic political culture is that anyone can find equivalence between statues of traitors and statues of the man whose leadership saved the Union and who is by consensus among historians regarded as the best president in US history.

[Frasier Balzov]

22. Plus he was assassinated by Booth.

Now THERE was a real, dyed-in-the-wool white supremacist.

[BannonsLiver]

40. +1

those calling for the removal are morons.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

7. "How many white people were pro-black in the 19th century?"

Let's find them and put up statues to them.

Or, you know, not have statues at all.

LMAO that these kids are "going through the proper channels" and STILL people push back.

[Sapient Donkey]

110. Going through proper channels is so there can be a discussion and debate

In such things that means there will be push back if people do not agree with what they are saying. Should it function differently?

[Hekate]

8. FFS. A little learning is a dangerous thing...

[Takket]

10. this is crazy.......

where do we draw the line? Is Martin Luther King the only person in the country that deserves a statue?

Lincoln was willing to go to war to end slavery. How can we judge what he said in the 1860s by 2020 standards of what is socially acceptable? Racism was just part of the culture back then. How many whites grew up being taught that blacks should be treated equal? Probably 0, or close to it. But Lincoln bucked all that and made the GIGANTIC leap of pushing beyond that to lead us through the Civil war for something he believed in.

See the bigger picture, and the historical context.

[milestogo]

12. MLK cheated on his wife and plagiarized in grad school.

No statues for him.

[Straw Man]

15. Those are not ideological offenses.

However, he also considered homosexuality to be a "problem" requiring treatment.

If you apply contemporary mores to historical figures, you will find virtually no one deserving honors. Maybe that's as it should be. I don't know.

[milestogo]

18. Exactly, and that's what they are doing to Lincoln.

[BannonsLiver]

41. MLK wasn't perfect either.

So yeah, where exactly is the line.

[The Magistrate]

11. Time For A Head Count On This Sort Of Thing, Sir

How many students does this person actually represent by her statements?

How many even of the student union agree with this statement?

The idea that students of color on the Madison campus 'have been crying out for help for the past 50, 60 years' because of a statue of President Lincoln, and that a statue of President Lincoln causes them 'a horrible feeling as a student, as a black and brown student on campus,' is flat nonesense, and an absurd example of someone carried far, far away by indulgence in the habit of argument by hyperbole. I have no doubt students of color at the college have legitimate grievances. The course this person is taking will not alleviate them in the slightest, and in fact will most likely aggravate them.

[Caliman73]

25. Which is perhaps why it is being reported.

Give voice to the most extreme examples and the "moderate" voice will have greater impact.

Media is biased. All information is biased. We should explore the arguments and there should be counter arguments, but not counter arguments about scale and tone. Factual arguments.

The media is a business and conflict and extremes sell.

We can't have a discussion on the flaws of our leaders and the complexities of race relations in the US. It has to be about "us vs. them" and we all get our popcorn out and watch.

[The Magistrate]

28. The Way It Works, Sir

Is that this sort of extreme posturing comes to stand in for the moderate view in the public perception, as it is arresting and novel. Its unpopularity, the offense it gives to so many, turns people against the entire effort of which this sort of thing is a mere flamboyant excresence. It is counter-productive in the extreme. If the activist and academic left had any sense about how to frame issues and present them for mass appeal, we would be living in a far different, and far better, political reality than we do. In fact, the activist and academic left have a positive genius for framing issues in a manner certain to offend the great mass o the voting public.

[trof]

33. Sir, your command of the English language is astounding to me.

I'm a former journalist, now retired for many years.
I always enjoy and am instructed by your posts.
Thank you.

[The Magistrate]

75. Thank You For The Kind Words, Sir

I blame early exposure to Mr. G. B. Shaw, the prefaces particularly....

[trof]

88. Yessir, George knew his way around the English language.

[The Magistrate]

90. My Favorites, Sir

Are 'Saint Joan' and 'The Devil's Disciple'. The latter was made into a quite entertaining movie with Burt Lancaster in the lead. I do not agree with everything he said, especially by the twenties and thirties, but he wrote nothing that is not worth reading to this day.

[trof]

91. It's a beautiful language in the minds and hands of those who know how to use it.

Sam Clemens is one of my heroes.

TOM!”

No answer.

“TOM!”

No answer.

“What’s gone with that boy, I wonder? You TOM!”

No answer.

[The Magistrate]

92. He Is a Marvel, Sir

In 'Letters From the Earth' there is a dissection of Fenimore Cooper's 'Last of the Mohicans' that is funny as hell while being some of the best advice to writers I have ever found.

[Caliman73]

38. In other words. They make people uncomfortable.

Paradigm shifts are difficult to imagine.

I am not even saying I support what they are doing.

The thing of it is that dominant narratives seek to insulate themselves by calling anything else, "extreme" and unreasonable.

[The Magistrate]

50. To No Good End, Sir

That is the problem with this sort of thing. Paradigm shifts do not occur until a great mass of the people are in a mood for them.

We are actually in the middle of one, on the subject of policing and the racism built into current policing practices. That far, it seems clear, a great many people are ready and willing to go.

It is a mistake, however, to view this as a revolutionary moment, as some among the activist and academic left seem to do. People are angered and repulsed at murders by police, and open to the truth these illustrate, that policing in this country is practiced along racist lines, and often by people actively moved by race hated. They are not ready to denounce and denigrate icons from the nation's past, and will repudiate with some heat attempts to get them to do so. Failure to recognize this runs a real risk of doing harm to the prospects for reforming, even restructuring, policing, which people are open to. If this becomes identified in the popular mind with removal or toppling of revered national icons, a good many people will not wish to range themselves alongside such actions, and the mass support available at present for real improvements in policing will ebb, and the moment will pass with little or nothing real achieved. Indeed, there are powerful interests who want this moment to ebb away without good result, and they will batten onto the sort of thing this student advocates as a weapon they may use to achieve their aims.

[misanthrope]

96. This is the essential part

"If the activist and academic left had any sense about how to frame issues and present them for mass appeal, we would be living in a far different, and far better, political reality than we do. In fact, the activist and academic left have a positive genius for framing issues in a manner certain to offend the great mass of the voting public."

For whatever reason, far too many on the American left seem determined to ignore this. History is for learning, not worshipping.

[The Magistrate]

99. Thank You, My Friend

One suspects the root of the problem is personality. In a country where it is not mainstream to identify as a person of the left (which for whatever the reasons may be is the case in the United States), people who do so are more likely to be persons to whom going against the crowd is a positive value. Yet politics is the art of assembling as large a crowd as possible, and success goes to whomever can assemble the largest crowd. This is something people who are proud they are 'not like everybody else' are unlikely to be good at. The thing can be learnt as a skill, when it does not come naturally, and people can observe what works and what does not and act accordingly. But many cannot temper their disdain for the specter of conformity sufficiently to do that, or even to see the need for doing it. They know they are different, and since they view being different as being better, then by rights it is they who ought to be followed, and if they are not, well, fiddlesticks to the poor herd....

[misanthrope]

101. Contrarian tendencies work in opposition

to electoral success. The trick is to introduce new directions and approaches in a way that doesn't spook the herd. Typically having a few decades of political observation under your belt teaches it.

However, the Lords of the Marketplace have rebuilt our culture around immediate gratification and worship of youth to promote consumption. Wisdom isn't valued.

Amusing that others on this forum have mentioned a CNN documentary on 1968. We may see some of the same social forces and effects return again this year, much to the Constitution's peril.

[PTWB]

26. Romanticizing white men is a dangerous game.

Lincoln’s actions as President are worthy of recognition in the annals of history. Lincoln’s beliefs as a man make him unworthy of any idols, statues or monuments.


Trigger warning: Abraham Lincoln quote below.

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.” - Abraham Lincoln

[The Magistrate]

32. Do You Seriously Imagine Me Ignorant Of The Lincoln-Douglas Debates, Sir?

Have you the slightest idea what was said by 'The Little Giant' on the subject?


"Don't try and teach your grandmother to suck eggs."

[PTWB]

48. I don't know you so I don't imagine you ignorant, or knowledgeable, of any subject.

[The Magistrate]

54. In Other Words, Sir, You Have No Idea Of The Context In Which The Statement You Brandish Was Made

Nor does it seem you have much interest in informing yourself on the subject.

This makes any commentary you might make on things which occurred much before last Tuesday of very little worth....

[PTWB]

56. Yes, those are other words.

That’s about all they are. Your words miss the mark completely. Have you ever actually managed to impress anyone with your pedestrian attempts at eloquence? I think not.

If you’d like to try to justify white supremacy with “context” you’re free to try. We all know the context that Lincoln’s quote came from. I suggest you do not continue this line of argument.

[The Magistrate]

58. By All Means, Sir, Proceed To Instruct Me

Dazzle me, and the audience, with your grasp of political life in Illinois in the middle of the nineteenth century....

You get a small chromo for 'pedestrian attempts at eloquence', mind. Not sufficient to raise your rating, but at least a little something to put over on the credit side of the ledger.

[PTWB]

59. No, dear, no.

My position is that no amount of context can whitewash white supremacy. It doesn’t matter why Lincoln said what he said. It doesn’t matter if he felt that he had to talk the talk, as it were.

If you want to try to give justification via context then by all means, be my guest, but I think we both know it is a losing battle.

[The Magistrate]

61. 'Thine Own Mouth Condemneth Thee'

My general inclination is to forgive ignorance, but for someone who flaunts it, and gives every evidence of being determined to remain in it, there can be neither pardon nor clemency.

[PTWB]

62. Ever consider retaining an editor?

You know what they say about brevity. I’m glad you’re throwing in the towel... it would have been painful to witness any attempt at justification.

[The Magistrate]

67. You Continue To Amuse, Sir

Mr. Lincoln was a man of his times who was ahead of his times.

His basic position on slavery was that every man had the right to the produce of his own labor, and no one had the right to take that from him. This was a quite radical position, as it accorded an equality of rights to both negro and white. In most instances, 'free states' banned slavery within their borders as a segregationist measure --- with slavery came negroes, so no slavery, no negroes. Concepts of justice or equality had little to do with it. Even most abolitionists held negroes to be inferior, the debate was whether they could be educated and made equivalent to whites or not if in a state of freedom. It takes an exceedingly fine-grained search to comb up white people anywhere in the nineteenth century who held negroes equal to whites in all capacities by nature.

A politician seeking votes has little choice but to pay attention to the sensibilities of the voting public, which in the nineteenth century was exclusively white men. A politician who opposed slavery could get nowhere without making clear the limits of his opposition. A politician who took the view Mr. Lincoln did of a fundamental equality of rights between the races where the produce of their labor was concerned, had to be particularly careful, for that was viewed at the time, and rightfully so, as a radical position which taken to its logical conclusion might lead to equality of rights in all matters of citizenship between negroes and whites. In fact this is exactly what Douglas accused Mr. Lincoln of advocating, with the equal right of a negro to the produce of his labor being but the thin end of a wedge that must inevitably lead to the whole litany of horrors that still haunt a number of white minds today, were it applied to the crack in national life slavery opened. Mr. Lincoln on the debate platform disavowed such intention, and in all necessary detail. It may perhaps be an inherent flaw of a democratic system, but so long as votes are necessary to attain office, politicians cannot get too far beyond what most people think and feel.

That Mr. Lincoln spoke sincerely in refuting Douglas' characterization of his intentions I have no doubt. I would expect nothing more of a self-educated white man born and raised on the near frontier, and know that in a great proportion of cases I would encounter sentiments a good deal more noxious. I am not interested in anachronistic application of modern mores to the past, and consider people who indulge in the practice quite foolish. The degree of equality Mr. Lincoln was prepared to accord negroes places him head and shoulders above the general run of his times, and that he was prepared to fight for this entitles him to respect. That he fought effectively and successfully for that makes him admirable. That he was murdered by a man who thought the end of negro enslavement the greatest crime of tyranny in all history is a national tragedy.

[PTWB]

68. Thanks for taking the time to write that up.

Your understanding of the context is essentially the same as mine - Lincoln held less racist views compared to most of his contemporaries and took actions to benefit the "inferior negroes" as described them. The abolition of slavery, regardless of Lincoln's intentions and motives, will be regarded as one of the defining moments in our nation's history for all time.

The problem with monuments and statues of men like Lincoln is that we are still fighting battles against racism today. A child of color born today will visit the Lincoln Memorial, after receiving the standard public school whitewashing of our history, and look up fondly at a man who would look down on him as inferior. One day that child will be exposed to the reality of Lincoln's white supremacy and that fond memory will be shattered. That discovery will alter, however slightly, the way that child looks at his or her place in our country. These societal betrayals occur regularly for persons of color. Under nearly every historic stone is an ugly reminder of slavery, rape, torture and genocide.

Take all the statues and monuments down. Create an exhibit at the National Museum of American History in DC where the significant ones are displayed for those who wish to appreciate them - along with detailed context about the people who are depicted - and let our country emerge from the shadow cast by these white men.

We will not be able to do that while we are still fighting the same fights and turning over the same historic stones, generation after generation after generation.

[The Magistrate]

70. Iconoclasm Is a Dead End, Sir

It is a waste of effort.

You greatly over-rate the effect of statues, and greatly underrate the attachment of people at large to symbols of their country.

Take every statue down, park every statue in a museum, you would gain nothing. State that as an aim, and you will lose a great deal.

Note the degree of opposition you are arousing here, on this forum. There is no one here who is not to the left of many of their friends and most of their neighbors. This is true even of those some are pleased to dub centerists and even rightists; in fact these often are people much more to the left of their neighbors and friends than those who deploy such labels towards them are. If you cannot get much of an 'Amen!' from this audience, you may be sure you will get nothing but boos and catcalls from populace at large. And in a democracy, that matters. You will never be in a position to rule by fiat, you will never even be in a position to rule by crowd or mob. That latter may gain a temporary local success or two, but mobs will be broken by state power, and what they have damaged will be repaired. Outright enemies of equality, exploitative criminals and traitors, these can and will be edited out of public spaces to applause which outweighs sufficiently the complaints of 'history' and 'heritage'. Assailing national icons will meet a mixture of derision and anger, and discredit as outside the community people who engage in it. Like it or not, that is political death in a democracy.

[PTWB]

73. Not at all.

If iconoclasm is a "dead end" I suppose it is my imagination that the confederate flag has been banned from NASCAR events, that Mississippi is poised to eliminate it from their state flag and that statues of confederates being toppled left and right? You claim an immeasurable as if it were fact - that I overrate the effect of statues and underrate the attachment of people to symbols. I say you do the opposite! Alas, my claim is just as immeasurable as yours.

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve with your final paragraph. While I have had several very vocal detractors, I feel quite welcome by the majority of folks here and have for the last year and a half. I enjoyed the primary forum where I first supported Kamala Harris and then supported Elizabeth Warren. I admit that Joe Biden was not my choice and I'm really hoping picks Harris as his VP but I don't think that is a position which would arouse much opposition.

The only thread I've posted which could be considered controversial in subject matter - exposing Michelle Caruso-Cabrera's ultra-right wing pedigree - was incredibly well received but all by the most ardent AOC detractors.

My goal here is not to get an 'Amen!' from anyone - we are all Democrats and preaching to the choir isn't interesting or meaningful. Our goal should be to make our party stronger and more effective, but on an individual level I would like to see us drag our party and our country further to the left. We've got a lot of dragging to do in order to counter the rightward drift we've seen since Reagan.

[The Magistrate]

74. The Confederate Flag, Sir, Is Not A Statue Of Abraham Lincoln

Your crusade against statues is iconoclasm in its literal sense, a drive to remove depictions of persons to prevent idolatry.

If you look at this discussion and conclude that the opinion you are pressing in this matter has much support here on a left forum, there is really not much to say to you. What is being discussed here has nothing to do with your personal popularity, or with any thread you may have posted previously. The subject is whether there is any good point to removing a statue of President Lincoln, as urged by a handful of activist students, and by extension whether such iconoclasm directed against figures widely revered by the populace is or is not something either a popular movement against murderous police, or a national election campaign, will benefit from.


"The varied superstitions of the empire were regarded by the people as all equally true, by the philosophers as all equally false, and by the officials as all equally useful."

[PTWB]

76. Indeed.

The confederate flag is NOT a statue of Abraham Lincoln. I'm happy I was able to help you reach that conclusion. Banning the confederate flag at events where it has historically been ubiquitous, removing it from the flag of Mississippi, toppling confederate statues and renaming military bases that had been named after confederate generals are all examples of iconoclasm. Iconoclasm is not, as you suggested, a "dead end." Just the opposite in fact.

I'm sorry I misunderstood your previous post. When you wrote, "Note the degree of opposition you are arousing here, on this forum" I understood you to be talking about the forum. You seem to craft your posts with more than a modicum of precision and if you'd intended to call attention to this thread I would have expected you to say so specifically, which is why my response included references to past threads.

As you are certainly aware the tides of acceptance are ever shifting in society. Not long ago gay marriage was illegal and supporting it was considered a losing political issue. Marijuana was illegal and supporting legalization was considered a losing political issue. Black Lives Matter was originally met with huge pushback from mainstream society as being too radical but now look at the movement roar!

Soon I will be able to say the same for 'defunding' the police - which really means disbanding the police and reforming law enforcement in the image of modern society. That movement could do with some branding and marketing assistance but it will get there.

It wont be long before removing statues and monuments to racist white men, despite their contributions to our nation's history, will be seen as just as acceptable as the aforementioned "radical" movements are today.

[The Magistrate]

81. We Have Our Dreams, Sir

And frequently must live with their disappointment.

[PTWB]

82. Very true.

I’m sure you’ll get over that disappointment in time.

[The Magistrate]

83. Cute, Sir, But No Cigar

Among my dreams is that the left here would cure itself of the propensity to willingly take up the handicap of a repute for anti-patriotism, which is political death in a democracy where the great preponderance of citizens love their country and identify personally with it. This is fairly recent, and largely dates to the various 'peace and disarmament' crusades of the Cold War. It is a great part of why we cannot have nice things, like national health insurance, strong unions, curbs on plutocratic greed, and more or less sane government at all levels.

[PTWB]

87. Correct me if I'm wrong...

But are you laying “a great part” of the blame on why we can’t have nice things because we’ve been waging a war against our country’s racist history and the systemic oppression and racism that still exists today due to that very history?

I love this country and am blessed to have been born here. If I didn’t love our country I certainly wouldn’t spend my time engaging in discussions about how to better it.

But I’ll be damned if I equate the removal of confederate flags and monuments to white supremacists as anti-patriotic.

[The Magistrate]

89. Of Course You Are Wrong, Sir

You seem determined to be so, and are succeeding in the aim.

The secessionist confederacy was an exercise in treason, people who defend its symbols identify themselves as traitors, not patriots, and can meet no wide support.

Those who wish to denounce founding figures and leading lights of the country as evil wretches are going to be viewed by the overwhelming preponderance of the populace as enemies of the country, and by extension, since most people identify personally with their country, as their own personal enemies. People will not listen to anything an enemy says, and will tend to the view that whatever an enemy desires is wrong and ought to be opposed. This is an extremely poor position from which to attempt to convince people to agree with you about questions of economic and social policy, and to identify with you as the proper holders of political power. It is a wholly self-inflicted wound, and taken on voluntarily. It is one thing to strap weights on your ankles when training for a race, and quite another to strap them on for the contest itself. The additional handicap guarantees failure.

The question you need to answer is whether success in implementing social and political policies desired by left and progressive and liberal people is your aim, or whether display of your own zeal for the highest ideals of righteousness is your aim. A dispassionate observer of our exchanges would, I suspect, be most likely to conclude you consider the latter to be your aim. It would certainly be clear to that observer the former is mine. Pressed to a certain pitch, unfortunately, that must make us enemies. It does not trouble me to have enemies on the left, for the grounds on which someone to my left becomes an enemy is that the course they pursue provides material aid to the right, by embodying its propagandists' worst caricatures of the left, and so assisting them in demonizing left and progressive and liberal aims and political figures.

[PTWB]

94. I'm beginning to see where our views diverge.

While I abhor the white supremacy that runs to the core of the confederacy, your issue is that their secession was treason. I'm not sure who you think views our founding fathers as "evil wretches" as you put it, certainly not me (at least, not most of them). But while many of them contributed much, and some had progressive views for the era in which they lived, their white supremacy is not up for debate and the days of honoring white supremacists with statues and monuments are fading quickly.

We aren't enemies. I simply disagree that straddling the proverbial fence is going to win us any elections. Rocking the boat is EXACTLY what we need to do to win. We learned in 2016 that trying to focus-group a messaging campaign isn't effective. People want passion and they want honesty. Pretending to get along with the center right so that we don't offend their sensibilities is the wrong way to win the election. We need to show them we're different and we need to show them why they should be different too. You don't do that by telling people what they want to hear - you do it by showing them what they need to see. If that's tearing down a statue of Christopher Columbus, banning confederate flags, or burning large swaths of a city to the ground after yet another state agent murdering a person of color, then that is exactly what we do.

Lo and behold it appears to be working.

[The Magistrate]

97. Not At All, Sir

I am simply explaining to you the views of people who are not in the choir you are in the habit of preaching to. You do not seem to understand why it is possible for there to be popular support for removing confederate emblems, and no popular support for removing statues of Mr. Lincoln.

As you seem to think that 'burning large swaths of a city to the ground' is an action likely to foster success in political life, I can see no point to any further exchange with you.


"They believed nothing they could not prove, and could prove everything they believed."

[PTWB]

98. Hmm.

As you seem to think that 'burning large swaths of a city to the ground' is an action likely to foster success in political life, I can see no point to any further exchange with you.

May 28th, 2020



A protester gestures in front of the burning Third Precinct building of the Minneapolis Police Department on May 28, 2020.(Julio Cortez / AP Photo)

Less than a month later...

June 26th, 2020

Minneapolis City Council unanimously votes on plan to dismantle police department in wake of anti-brutality protests

Someone needs to tell these protesters that their actions will not “foster success.”

[The Magistrate]

100. You Fail To Demonstrate That Caused The Vote, Sir

It is far more likely the vote was taken despite the destruction, because the popular outpouring of revulsion against the murder committed by police loomed too large for elected officials to ignore.

Still, amuse yourself with revolutionist larping to your hearts content....


"I'm going home. Someone get me some frogs and some bourbon."

[PTWB]

106. Let's keep an eye on those goalposts shall we? We don't want them meandering on down the block.

Your previous assertion was that radical and destructive actions taken against symbols of systemic racism and oppression are ineffective and, in fact, greatly responsible for the lack of progressive improvements we all seek. I can think of little that is more symbolic than burning down a police precinct when protesting systemic oppression, brutality and racism within that police department. And yet less than a month later the council in charge of that police precinct was unanimously voting to disband that very police department.

While we can dicker the day away over the cause and effect, we have three very simple issues here: action, response and result.

Action: George Floyd was murdered by the police department.
Response: Massive protests across the city (and the country) culminating in the symbolic burning of the 3rd Police Precinct.
Result: The city council votes to disband the police department and people across the country are supporting Black Lives Matter in droves.

We've seen murder after murder after murder of unarmed black men by the State. Some of these were met with protests, many were not. But it was not until significant force was applied along with these protests - through the damage of property and the economic damage leveraged against corporations resulting in them joining their voices to ours - that suddenly things are beginning to change.

[SlogginThroughIt]

37. Why?

Seems a rather ridiculous statement. Completely sexist.

Sure a lot of white men have done some shitty shit. But that statement is really stupid. I’d like to think that there are some decent white men in history.

[PTWB]

47. Well if we find a human who has done no wrong perhaps we can erect a statue to them

Until then let’s get rid of them all. Move them to museums where the good and bad acts can be expanded upon.

[SlogginThroughIt]

60. Yeah. That's now what I was objecting to.

[BannonsLiver]

42. Old news

And romanticizing any human is dangerous.

[PTWB]

46. Very old news! Over 150 year old news :)

[trof]

29. What he said.

I'm witchu bud.

[struggle4progress]

14. Oration in Memory of Abraham Lincoln (Frederick Douglass Washington DC 14 April 1876)

... under his rule we saw two hundred thousand of our dark and dusky people responding to the call of Abraham Lincoln, and with muskets on their shoulders, and eagles on their buttons, timing their high footsteps to liberty and union under the national flag; under his rule we saw the independence of the black republic of Haiti, the special object of slave-holding aversion and horror, fully recognized, and her minister, a colored gentleman, duly received here in the city of Washington; under his rule we saw the internal slave-trade, which so long disgraced the nation, abolished, and slavery abolished in the District of Columbia; under his rule we saw for the first time the law enforced against the foreign slave trade, and the first slave-trader hanged like any other pirate or murderer; under his rule, assisted by the greatest captain of our age, and his inspiration, we saw the Confederate States, based upon the idea that our race must be slaves, and slaves forever, battered to pieces and scattered to the four winds; under his rule, and in the fullness of time, we saw Abraham Lincoln, after giving the slave-holders three months’ grace in which to save their hateful slave system, penning the immortal paper, which, though special in its language, was general in its principles and effect, making slavery forever impossible in the United States. Though we waited long, we saw all this and more ...

... His great mission was to accomplish two things: first, to save his country from dismemberment and ruin; and, second, to free his country from the great crime of slavery. To do one or the other, or both, he must have the earnest sympathy and the powerful cooperation of his loyal fellow-countrymen. Without this primary and essential condition to success his efforts must have been vain and utterly fruitless. Had he put the abolition of slavery before the salvation of the Union, he would have inevitably driven from him a powerful class of the American people and rendered resistance to rebellion impossible. Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined ...

... The honest and comprehensive statesman, clearly discerning the needs of his country, and earnestly endeavoring to do his whole duty, though covered and blistered with reproaches, may safely leave his course to the silent judgment of time. Few great public men have ever been the victims of fiercer denunciation than Abraham Lincoln was during his administration. He was often wounded in the house of his friends. Reproaches came thick and fast upon him from within and from without, and from opposite quarters. He was assailed by Abolitionists; he was assailed by slave-holders; he was assailed by the men who were for peace at any price; he was assailed by those who were for a more vigorous prosecution of the war; he was assailed for not making the war an abolition war; and he was bitterly assailed for making the war an abolition war ...

... In doing honor to the memory of our friend and liberator, we have been doing highest honors to ourselves and those who come after us; we have been fastening ourselves to a name and fame imperishable and immortal; we have also been defending ourselves from a blighting scandal ...

https://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/oration-in-memory-of-abraham-lincoln/

[milestogo]

16. Thank you.

[The Magistrate]

21. Thank You, Sir, For The Contemporary View

It can be difficult sometimes to tell anachronism from idiocy, in part because they often overlap. It is always worth the effort to judge people in the context of their times. In this, it is very useful to consult voices of people who shared them.

[Caliman73]

27. Sell out!

I AM KIDDING

Just in case.


I think that instead of tearing down statues (except Confederates. They must ALL go), we should be putting up statues. Many more statues to the Irish laborers, and Chinese who helped build the railroads. To the Mexican and Filipino farmworkers who fed the nation through two World Wars, to the Native Americans who contributed to the survival of the Europeans who came to this land.

We have a complex and not so great history and we need to acknowledge that. But we don't need to take down the statues of our flawed leaders who espoused, but could not necessarily live by the great ideals set forth in our founding documents.

Then we should strive to live by those ideals for future generations.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

63. That Frederick Douglass is still doing some great work.

[struggle4progress]

108. He remains a giant in American rhetoric and a great proponent of organizing:

... Let me give you a word of the philosophy of reform. The whole history of the progress of human liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her august claims, have been born of earnest struggle. The conflict has been exciting, agitating, all-absorbing, and for the time being, putting all other tumults to silence. It must do this or it does nothing. If there is no struggle there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

This struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, and it may be both moral and physical, but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress ...

Frederick Douglas
WEST INDIA EMANCIPATION
Canandaigua NY 3 August 1857

[The Magistrate]

109. Few Can Touch Him, Sir

Or rise to his level.

[Kid Berwyn]

107. Thank you.

Sometimes, we need to be reminded of what we lost — or never knew.

[Skittles]

19. may as well tear down statues of men because they thought they were superior to women

this is getting ridiculous

[milestogo]

55. hang on, let me get my sledgehammer

Oh damn, there's just too many.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. We should just erase all past history and declare this to be Year Zero.

[egduj]

66. Let's wait till next year.

This is a real shitty year to build upon.

[GulfCoast66]

35. Yeah, this shit will win us tons of elections

Remember, the press likes to broadcast the most extreme views.

There is no broad movement to remove Lincoln statues.

[Mariana]

77. What makes you think the people doing this are on our side?

I rather suspect the opposite is true.

[jcgoldie]

36. Welp

Theres where you completely jump the shark. 😟

[tman]

39. How to lose a winable election. lol

[Quixote1818]

79. Bingo! The average person is going to think think this is nuts.

Lets win the election first.

[boston bean]

43. Just wrong and stupid.

[bdamomma]

44. There

is good and bad in all of us. Where do we draw the line?

[GoCubsGo]

49. Oh, ffs.

[Happy Hoosier]

64. Can't support this.

Last edited Sun Jun 28, 2020, 01:21 AM - Edit history (1)

He died because Of his dedication to saving the Union and defeating the Confederacy. That’s worth something.

[misanthrope]

102. "Dedicated cation"

I had no idea Abe Lincoln was such a physicist.

[Happy Hoosier]

103. Freakin' iPad autocorrect! Thanks!

[JCMach1]

65. I believe in Democracy, let the UW Madison community decide

In fact that's a big missing part of the statues story... Communities deciding on their own, peacefully to just take them down.

Of course, that doesn't make good press

[Sewa]

80. Apparently only the protesters get to decide

Nobody else’s opinion matters

[Polybius]

69. Fuck 'em

n/t

[The Magistrate]

71. I Applaud Your Brevity, Sir

It is as good a summing up of the popular reaction to this as can be made....

[Quixote1818]

78. Let's make sure we win this election before getting too eager these type of things at the moment

To the regular Joe this is not going to go over well.

[Initech]

84. OK this is getting to be quite a bit ridiculous.

[dware]

86. This is just going overboard!!!!

What next?

Is there going to be demands that Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck cartoons be removed or modified because Bugs always ends up humiliating Daffy because Daffy's black?

Sometimes good intentions get out of hand and you end up with this ridiculous demand.

[JI7]

95. Seems like an Attention Seeking Type that wants to feel they are superior and "purer" than

everyone else.

[SiliconValley_Dem]

105. these people are blithering idiots

there is mo serious argument to be made for that considering he is nearly always evaluated as our greatest president.