re-the use of defund.

[mopinko]

this is from a thread about barbara lee saying defund the pentagon, but it really saddens me to see folks here recoil from the word- defund.
this tells me that people are afraid. just frightened of the real change we need.
well, buckle up buttercups. this is a war we are in. we need to make that clear.

from the other thread-
they are picking up the people's words. that always wins.
when the people lead, and the leaders follow, those leaders get re-elected.
they cant care how people are going to twist it. they have to just keep speaking it clearly. because the proof of it is all over the streets. you cant reform your way out of shit like this. you have to start slashing.

again, hillary lost more votes by walking back 'deplorables' than she would have by calling them out, saying why, calling them haters to their faces. the deplorables and the rest were never going to vote for her. more on the left would have come out for her if she had showed the courage of her convictions.

i have worked on a lot of campaigns. the only losing candidates i backed were in gerrymandered districts they could not win. both of those were moral victories. 1 made henry hyde retire.
i have knocked many, many doors. mamby pamby does not bring people out. clear truth brings people out. and speaking to problems w a sense of the scale necessary to address the problem bring people out.

[empedocles]

1. 'Defund' is not a good November Election word.

[oswaldactedalone]

35. This

Plus a million.

[boston bean]

2. Trump has essentially defunded America in many ways.

The word defund has a very specific meaning.

prevent from continuing to receive funds.

If that is not what is meant, use a different word.

Otherwise it is nothing but an easily weaponized wedge to be used against Democrats.

Can we please be smart?

[mopinko]

21. it doesnt mean- zero it out.

that would be- fuck the police.
it means take away their lethal weapons that they dont need if they do their jobs right.
and stop robbing the taxpayers w the lawsuits against brutal thugs w badges. that is a huuuuuge line item in the chicago budget.

[boston bean]

30. Actually the word defund means exactly that.

It doesn’t matter what they mean when saying it cause the word being used does not define what they mean.

[mopinko]

38. they are defining what they say it means every day.

at the top of their lungs. and they are defining it clearly and succinctly and just like i did.
my post is meant to lift up their voices.

if we want people in the streets to also be in the voting booth, we best follow them.

[boston bean]

40. Then use words that actually mean what one is saying.

[mopinko]

41. then give me one.

i've never known you to be at a loss for words.
come up w a better one than what the people in the streets are screaming.

[boston bean]

42. Refund and Reform

[mopinko]

44. one word.

and everyone is sick of the word reform. that's why they are in the streets.

[boston bean]

50. Then we want a refund. Or we want to refund the allocation. Anything but defund.

[Pobeka]

66. de-escalate ?

[tonedevil]

47. Refund?

pay back (money), typically to a customer who is not satisfied with goods or services bought.
"if you're not delighted with your purchase, we guarantee to refund your money in full"

I don't want to refund the police one damn thing. If you are going to worry about the meaning of words that one is much worse than defund.

[boston bean]

49. Umm. We are the ones wanting the refund due to bad services.

[tonedevil]

52. Is that what you mean...

when you say refund and reform? That is very awkward phrasing. I don't think the slogan we demand a refund from the police is going to catch on.

[boston bean]

54. Refund also means reallocation.

Which is essentially what they are meaning.

It can be used both ways as an expression.

However defund has one specific meaning. Take all the money away.

[tonedevil]

56. It doesn't...

it could because of what the prefix re means, but it isn't normally used to mean relaocate. The normal use is to give money paid back (This product is defective I want a refund). Defund can and is used proportionally (the department of education was defunded by 10%). Your use of the word refund while technically possible is never the way it is used.

[boston bean]

59. Well, you don't like it. Are you a bad person for thinking it is not the right slogan?

I don’t think you are.

[tonedevil]

61. Thanks for the vote of confidence...

I don't think you are a bad person either. I also don't think refund is ever used the way you are trying to. I find it funny because you want to insist on a very strict meaning for the word defund, but are ready to play fast and lose with refund. Do you really think refund is sometimes used to mean relaocate?

[boston bean]

63. I was asked to provide a different word. I did so.

Defund has a very specific meaning. It does not mean re allocate. It means to take money away.

Refund of money for piss poor services work. And it also can be used to imply reallocation. Do I think it a perfect word to describe what is wanted and needed no. But it is better in meaning than defund.

Defund will be used to weaponize politically. I do not support the slogan. I think it is harmful. I do however support the intent.

Come up with something better that actually means what one wants.

[tonedevil]

65. I understand the problem...

people have with defund. I don't agree with them, but I do understand. I'm pretty sure refund is more of a nonstarter. You are trying to use it in two ways simultaneously. Refund as in we will talk to the manager of policemart and refund to mean relocate. Defund the police is always going to be controversial, but refund the police is just silly.

[delisen]

33. Defund means stop giving money to an agency. Nt

[mopinko]

39. it doesnt mean zero out. it doesn't mean abolish.

that would be COMPLETELY defund. no one is saying that.

[boston bean]

55. Sorry, but I have seen that as the intention from liberals.

That is another reason it should not be used.

[tonedevil]

57. Damn those liberals /nt

[boston bean]

58. No not damn them.

[Ms. Toad]

69. That is part of the problem with the word

Some of the people saying it do mean exactly that.and it is the most natural meaning of the word.

If a substantial portion of the people using the term are using in exactly the way our opponents are claiming and we have to explain what we really mean -and our own side comes back and contradicts us, we have not only not gained anything by having a single word slogan. We have shot ourselves in the foot.

[LeftInTX]

64. I got a call from a Democratic Precinct Chair

That's exactly what he thinks it means.

He's mad at our congressman for supporting it. He's picturing anarchy and crime.

[Jirel]

3. Bam.

I’m sick of all the querulous voices preaching fear over “defund the police” and even “black lives matter.” If you have no moral courage, get away from politics. All the defensive hand-wringing about “no, we agree, but you just have to change a word” is repugnant.

Trump uses the most heinous bold language to deny humanity and destroy lives, and has been idolized for it. Speaking loudly, even outrageously, is not a problem.

It is certainly not a problem for disgusting trash like Rand Paul, Louis Gohmert, Ted Cruz, and other rethuglicans.

But we keep hearing how Dems dare not speak above a hush. No no, we can not be the party of bold ideas and bold speech. Why... why... we might OFFEND a racist mythical rethuglican cross-over voter!

You fight fire with fire. You do and say the right thing. You ignite support by NOT being the same, tired, mealy-mouthed liberal candidate some think all should aspire to.

[mopinko]

9. thank god someone can hear me.

for a minute i thought my post came out in urdu.

[Squinch]

13. Everyone can hear you. We just don't agree with you.

[Zeus69]

4. Defund will lead to Defeat

That word should be nowhere in the Biden platform.

And, fortunately, it won’t...

[oswaldactedalone]

36. Yes it will

[Zeus69]

68. Uhh

Yes, it will lead to defeat?
or
Yes, the word will be part of the platform?

[oswaldactedalone]

72. Really?

It will lead to defeat.

[Zeus69]

73. Sorry

My last line was “ And, fortunately, it won’t...”

Crossed signals.

[Evergreen Emerald]

5. Throw the baby out with the bath water

When I hear the term "defund police" I think of the phrase throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Defund to me means end police departments. No more police. And I think of my neighbor who was assaulted by her husband, and saved by the police. I think of the person shot in the street and medical aid could not come without police escorts--and there were none. I think of the business who had an active shooter and the police came in and saved hundreds of lives.

I understand the harm that some police officers have done. And that the systematic--and individual--racism has to end.

But, I do not understand "defund the police."

[mopinko]

7. well, perhaps you should listen harder, because that isnt what it means.

i just had someone post on my fb tl a post from a farmer about what having a "few bad apples" really meant, and it ended w- sometimes you have to burn the barrel.

cops hate doing all those things they shouldnt be doing. they hate being sidewalk counselors and pushing school kids around and breaking up domestic fights. so let's give those jobs to someone who is trained to do them.

that is a huuuuge percentage of what they do. and it is why cities are on fire right now.

[Evergreen Emerald]

11. And that is "reform" not "defunding"

Defund defined: prevent from continuing to receive funds.
"the California Legislature has defunded the Industrial Welfare Commission"

I listen fine. It is difficult to have a conversation when it ends up in a personal attack. I listen fine.

[mopinko]

17. i did not attack you. and reform means nothing to most people.

it means nibbling around the edges. and people are dying. that wont win any votes. it wont get anyone up off the couch.

it's not that hard to follow that word w an assurance that it doesnt mean no cops, just a top to bottom reshaping of the whole idea of cops. the point is to get their attention. and keep it.

reform means- we will fire the ones who keep getting us sued. period. nothing else will change. people know that. esp the people w targets on their backs.

[Evergreen Emerald]

23. Not all attention is good attention.

To suggest that you get rid of the police--the attention you receive will be another excuse to ignore the problem.

What you want defund to stand for is not what defund means. Rethink the strategy.

[mopinko]

27. it doesnt mean zero out. it doesn't mean abolish.

it means stop giving them more and more money when they are murdering people in the street.
if our language doesnt match the moment, we will lose.

[Evergreen Emerald]

34. Exactly. I think we are both saying the same thing.

We need to match the language to the moment. "Defund" is not the language that matches the moment.

[mopinko]

37. it is the word of the people in the streets. we must respect that.

and lift it up.
it isnt enough to stand for good. we must also stand up to evil.

[marie999]

6. Defund is definitely not the word to be using.

It doesn't matter with trump's minions or with almost all Democrats as far as voting goes, but it can have an effect on independents and others sitting on the fence.

[mopinko]

8. yeah. like maybe, get the lefties off the fence who

think dems are a bunch of mealy mouth panderers.

[Squinch]

12. Yeah. Both of them. Who, if they aren't voting for Joe now, they never will.

[Squinch]

10. OK, everyone who yells at me when I say we Democrats need to work on our messaging, I repeat:

We Democrats need to work on our messaging.

We are going to live and die on the hill of the word "defund?"

When there is absolutely no need to do that? When the way the word is being used gives an inaccurate message about our intentions, and turns off voters we need?

We're going to act as if the word "defund" is our mommy and we're saving her life? No matter what the cost is to the things we want to do? We're going to throw away votes because of a single semantic?

Using the word "defund" does not make us pure. It makes us lose. And if we don't want to see Q and the KKK and covid bring this country down, we better not lose.

[mopinko]

14. then what's the message? everything is fine. ozzy and harriet will brb?

people want real change. deep change.
say that in one word. i dare you.

[Squinch]

16. You first. Because "defund" is certainly not that word. "Defund" is a word you use when you

want to shoot yourself in the foot. It doesn't say what you want it to say and it turns voters off.

You want deep change? Win the election.

[mopinko]

18. defund is most certainly a word that keeps people's attention.

and i did go first. this is my thread.

your turn. ps, i get paid to write campaign copy.

[Squinch]

22. Benghazi is a word that keeps people's attention too. So what? Are you going to work that

into your copy too? Are you looking for click bait, or do you want to get a message across that gets votes?

And yes this is your thread.

Most people in this thread agree with you about what needs to be done.

Only one person in this thread agrees with you about the use of the word "defund." The rest are telling you the word gives the wrong message and turns them and others off.

And yet you are insisting that "defund" must be the signature term of our message.

That's not good campaign copy.

[mopinko]

25. well, where is your word?

i have a 100% track record w candidates i wrote for.

[Squinch]

28. Really? I'm trying to have a conversation and you have nothing but this childishness.

No doubt the fact that I will not supply a word that is equally non-descriptive of our goals and equally as incendiary as "defund", you will decide you have won a fight that we are not having.

So have at it. Have a lovely day.

[mopinko]

29. your conversation so far- no, sorry, you are wrong and i am right.

even tho i cant come up w a single word.

i do intend to have a lovely day in my garden, thanks.

[mopinko]

26. and benghazi gets attention because of the narrative they attached to it.

it didnt get anyones attention until it was shoved down people's throats.
defund is the people's word. the leaders should follow.
if they do, they will win.

[oasis]

15. Reagan quote: "If you're explaining, you're losing". nt

[mopinko]

19. you dont have to explain it to the people who are the targets of the violence.

nor to the people, like me, who see my cops are afraid to get out of their cars in this mess. and who only pour gasoline on the fires that are gonna be everywhere soon.

and raygun had the media in his back pocket. plus he was brain dead.

[oasis]

31. The "Great Communicator" knew how to win. "Messaging" played

a major role in his political campaigns. I get that Ronnie was a 90% con, but his voters didn't have to try to figure out what he was telling them.

[mopinko]

32. because of who was behind him. period.

and the people are behind this. it is their word.
if we want the people in the streets to vote, we need to lift THEIR voices and their words.

if the people lead, the leaders MUST follow.
or lose.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

20. It's the ambiguous binary / non-binary nature of the word

A word like "defund" can mean either

1) Withdraw all funding of an institution, or

2) Withdraw some funding

My gut reaction on hearing "defund" used widely re police departments some weeks ago was it was to destroy, delete, and dead-end police departments.

And that is despite that I frequently encourage people to avoid binary all-or-nothing thinking. Hoist by my own petard. Or, more accurately, I am not immune to that which I warn against.

It was only a little bit later that someone made it clearer to me that it can mean reducing funding, say by 10%, not eliminating it entirely. A duh moment for me. There is merit, for example, to the idea of sending wellness professionals to do wellness checks instead of sending beefy police with guns and tasers and sunglasses and black boots and all.

[mopinko]

24. yeah, nobody means zero it out.

that would be- fuck the police.
here in chicago a big chunk of my taxes go to pay off the victims of thugs w badges.

and these days the cops here are afraid to get out of their cars. i had fools in my hood shooting off m100s to the point where my chickens quit laying. the mayor has said they will not write tickets for "fireworks". but these aint them. they are about 5 class a felonies to hold and light them off.
they finally quit when i started setting off my car alarm every time i heard a boom. pissed off all the people who cry and wring their hands about how the cops do nothing. and it was a battle royal for a while there. in fact, the cops were on their side. i even had a slow speed police chase. they followed my about a mile and a half into the next jurisdiction. then i got a bogus ticket for a car alarm of over 5 minutes "in a central business district". my whole area is residential.

i rarely used to see a squad car on my street. now i see them every hour on the hour. that's because they are running the map, and stopping to do zero.

and they hate doing the things other qualified pros can do better. hate it.

[Ms. Toad]

70. Yes, too many people mean exactly that.

It may not be the people you think deserve to be listened to. But it is blatantly false to assert that no one on our side means that. Which is the most significant reason it should not be part off our campaign. It hands the other side a weapon when they accuse us of wanting to abolish the police, you say, "no one means that," and a bunch of voices from right behind you shoot out, "yes we do!"

[Demsrule86]

43. Defund is a bad word choice. No Democrat elected should use this term. We want to win in

November...and this only helps the GOP.

[mopinko]

45. and this thread right here is why the voices of members of color

are so rarely heard here.

[SCantiGOP]

46. Just because a majority of people disagree with something you say

in no way implies that the voices of people of color are being ignored.
That is not fair to DU as a whole, or to the people who commented on this thread.

[janterry]

48. Everyone has an opinion, even on the left

that's fair enough. In fact, that defines what is liberal (imo).

[jmg257]

51. Sucks when people disagree. Doesnt mean they arent listening.

[tonedevil]

53. True that...

proven by the first three responses I see you got.

[gulliver]

60. "Defund" is simplistic...more of a Republicanist word than a Dem one.

The drug war is the main feeder root of racism, poverty, and police violence. Take the money spent on the drug war and turn it into a drug abuse management strategy. That's a reorganization, not a knee-jerk defunding. The money would leave law enforcement and go where it can help solve the problem, to social workers, education programs, health care, and even loans and subsidies.

No one is going to just "defund the police." No offense, but, although the idea is emotionally satisfying to some, it's lazy thinking. Use the money, but use it elsewhere. Take that mission away from the police by changing the law.

[melman]

62. When the rubber hits the road people show what side they're on

[Bettie]

71. For the first time in a long time

my DH and I disagree about this.

He likes "Reform", "Police", or "Fix" .....but I believe that dilutes the message.

So many cities have said they are reforming, reorganizing or whatever word works at any given time and in the end, it turns out that the real problems never got addressed because so much of this is a problem of police culture and is exacerbated by increasing militarization of police departments as well as a view of the public (by cops) as insurgents.

Cops are KILLING people because they see the people around them as the enemy, especially black and brown people who they often don't even see as human.

There is no easy or quick fix for that.