For all the "defund" pearl-clutchers:

[ret5hd]

[oswaldactedalone]

1. It's bad phrasing

And we don’t need bad phrasing. Hand me the pearls because if you keep using this, you risk 4 more years of Trump. STOP IT NOW!!

[ret5hd]

2. It's not, OK, no we don't, and no.

[Evergreen Emerald]

5. I agree: removing the funding from police agencies is a disastrous idea

Now good ideas: Redefining, reassigning, reevaluating. But, end the police? Not a good idea.

And if you respond by saying that you do not really mean that you want to end the police, then stop saying it.

[tonedevil]

24. Defund the police by 33.8% /nt

[LanternWaste]

6. The right wing defunded education and social services. And they loved it.

Applying it to law enforcement is simply a variation on their own standard.

I'd maintain that if you're going to yell at people to stop doing things that could risk an election, you yell at them, rather than mere commercial branding.

Or continue with your allegations of concern, unsupported by objective evidence.

I'm guessing you'll continue with the second choice-- rational thought isn't hipster enough anymore.

[HotTeaBag]

17. Yep, and every time someone uses the phrase

they then have to follow it up with a three paragraph explanation, Powerpoint presentation or explainer video to clarify what it 'really' means.

Just what Biden needs right now - having to defend against the Right and the Left.

[Midnight Writer]

25. Exactly. If a candidate is explaining, the candidate is losing.

I remember Al Gore wanting to put Social Security funds in a "lockbox". A splendid idea, in my opinion. Strip the Social Security Trust Fund from the budget so that the funds cannot be borrowed by the Government for other expenses. In the meantime, the Fund can collect interest and stay solvent. It is what they did with the Civil Service Retirement Fund, and even though it is hardly paid into anymore, it still has enough money to pay every promised benefit.

To my surprise, I found many people thinking Gore was proposing locking up Social Security so people could no longer access their benefits because it would be "locked up". As one guy said "I need that Social Security to retire on!". And I am not talking about ignoramuses, i am talking about professional, well educated people, who are busy with their lives and don't take time to peruse through position papers and policy proposals.

If we want to reform, restructure, re-envision the police, then that is what we should say, plainly.

[oswaldactedalone]

3. As said on another thread

“Defund will lead to defeat.” Keep it up and we’ll be blaming you for four more years of Trump.

[LanternWaste]

7. You're too wrapped up in simplistic bumper stickers.

Rational thought is less comforting, yet ultimately, much more rewarding. Just a suggestion...

[BGBD]

11. George W. Bush

won a 2nd term based on a couple bumper sticker phrases.

[HotTeaBag]

15. Boom.

Exactly right.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

18. +1. N/t

[customerserviceguy]

21. How's this for a rational thought:

The blue wave of 2018 was principally in suburbs. The suburbanites got ticked off about not being able to deduct more than $10K in state and local taxes.

Suburbanites, while they may acknowledge police brutality, still believe in police forces. The word "defund" probably translates as "eliminate" to them, and they'll swing back in the direction of safety.

"Reform" or something along that line, is not nearly as threatening to the people whose votes we're going to need this fall.

[tulipsandroses]

4. I work in community mental health and we are stretched thin -

My county population is over 600,000. There are currently 8 of us - NPs and MDs that serve this entire county's mental health needs for out patient services. We already do some diversion services - meaning we have mental health and drug court in our county. So a judge has the option of sending someone to mental health or substance abuse treatment instead of jail. We have counselors as well. Not enough of them either. Our turnover is high. No-one wants to stay because its unbearable at times to work with this many people and provide quality care for them. Not only do they have mental heath or substance use care needs, they have housing needs, health care needs, job training needs and so much else.
So while I am trained as a psychiatric nurse practitioner - my training in school - diagnose mental illness and prescribe medication. My job goes way beyond that when I have someone sitting in front of me crying that they have nowhere to sleep tonight, they have no food, they are going to violate probation and go back to jail because they have no job and can't pay their probation fees and on and on and on.

I will go further - one of my weekly assignments is to see people in jail that are getting ready to be released. I see them via telemedicine. I don't get their legal records. Only medical records. The county pays for them to get 30 days worth of meds when they leave jail. That is what I am supposed to do when I see them. I go even further and tell them to make a follow up appt with the clinic after they are released so they can continue their treatment. But what I really want to drive home is time after time whenI ask them why are you in jail, the answer is usually VOP. I have been doing this for almost a year now and in the beginning I had no idea what the hell VOP was. It rolls off their tongues so effortlessly. It's just a way of life. Almost everyone, has numerous VOPs. VOP- Violation of Probation. So its this cycle of Jail, Release, Violation, Jail, Release, Violation and rinse and repeat.
So now, my next question after they say is VOP, is what was your original charge?
It is usually possession of drugs, DUI, theft (usually to support their addiction), prostitution, shoplifting, sometimes battery if they have gotten into a fight. But a lot of it is substance abuse related. Or even the battery charges stem from dysfunctional family or intimate relationships when you hear what happened. Its usually not a random stranger they got in a fight with.

What we are doing is not working folks. If anyone is really interested in protecting the safety of the public, they should understand that this system does not work. Even if people are angry at drunk drivers and say that they should go to jail. I can tell you that jail is not going to deter them if they are not given treatment and resources.

I am actually concerned about this conversation surrounding getting mental health involved when people don't actually know how the system actually works, we that are already involved - are already overwhelmed. If people don't understand what actually happens and think that you can just funnel more people without vastly funding the mental health system, an already broken system will collapse.

[mahina]

8. I hope you make this an op. Also, could you write about what you think

A good overall solution would look like? What would the parts of that be?

Here in Honolulu we have an election going right now for prosecutor. The one all the progressives like is Jackie Esser. People Like her because she says change what police do. Divert to mental health care.

I like her too but if she feels that way she should be Running for city Council, not the prosecutors office because what she’s asking for doesn’t exist

[broiles]

9. +1

[sarisataka]

13. Interesting perspective

And valuable as in all of the discussions about how policing should change, very little is heard from mental health providers who will take up much greater burdens.

Say you do get vastly improved funding, shifted from the police and your staff is tripled.

Do you see yourself and your coworkers able to respond to calls from the community to investigate and intervene in the field?

Would you (used in the general sense, not necessarily you personally) be able to effectively interact with a person apparently on drugs, a person with unknown mental illness causing disruption, domestic violence calls, sexual assault victims, etc, as a first responder?

Do you believe you (again in general) would be able to control these situations and then have the person admitted to treatment facilities or to proper ongoing support services?

Would you have concerns about safety? Would you want 'Violence Prevention Specialists' nearby?

Is all/any of this even feasible or would mental health workers need completely different training to be able to respond to such calls?

[tulipsandroses]

27. There should be dedicated mobile crisis teams to respond to "emergencies" in every jurisdiction

Such teams already exist
One example is CAHOOTS in Oregon. They respond to over 20,000 calls yearly. They had to call for backup 150 times in 23,000 calls last year so this is already being successfully done.
There should be a dedicated team that does this. Not pulling from outpatient staff. Unless outpatient staff wants to work on a mobile team after hours or on weekends.
However outpatient staff is trained in de-escalation and non violent interventions.
The police officers that respond if needed should be CIT officers. They have been trained in Crisis intervention.

I worked inpatient mental health and detox prior to working outpatient so I have no problem interacting with someone under the influence of drugs or alcohol or in a mental health crisis. Even within an outpatient environment, it happens and we have to involuntarily admit someone to inpatient.

When I worked inpatient - they had metal detectors at the hospital, patients searched before admission. Even then, things got missed. I had patients hand over guns, knives, and other items. Sometimes they didn't hand it over and it was found in a search.
Now that I work inpatient, I have no idea when I take someone into my office if they are armed or not. ACT teams (they work in the community)go out and find patients wherever they are, whether its in their homes or in the woods. They will literally go into the woods to find clients. Client X is located at Tree X in the ABC woods where he has a tent. So my point is, we are not afraid of doing our jobs. The reality is, most people with mental illness are not violent. I am more concerned about them hurting themselves.


Crisis teams already exist. This is what we should be talking about. They do exist and the places that use them, do it successfully. They are the ones like CAHOOTS and ones that include a CIT officer with a mental health professional responding to a call. These are not strange ideas. But, I think we sensationalize the idea and it gets lost.

[BGBD]

10. It can mean whatever you want it to...

but when you say "defund the police" it is going to be spun into that you want to get rid of all police and let everyone live in anarchy. Oh, and most people, even those that aren't high on Trump, will believe it.

The only good news is that Biden is smart enough to snuff this out before it ever gets near the Democratic Platform.

[OnDoutside]

12. The fact you've had to explain, means you're losing. That's the point. Is it more important to you

that you stand by an ambiguous word, than beating Trump in November ? If those on the left were genuine about overcoming being the faction of protest, they would acknowledge it too, but it's more important for them to be ideologically pure than back a party wanting to bring the maximum number of people behind them. That's seriously regrettable.

[NurseJackie]

14. If you're explaining, you're losing. Simple as that.

[Hav]

16. It's funny reading all these threads

that all follow this brilliant logic:
1. Why are you upset about the term defund?
2. Defund doesn't actually mean what most would understand as the meaning of defund (except for those who say literally abolish the police, of course)

If your term doesn't mean what most associate with it, then use a slogan that doesn't need these ridiculous explanations. It's almost as if some prefer electoral suicide over changing their wording.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. If One Needs A Video To Explain A 3 Word Phrase...

...one has a PR problem.

[ret5hd]

20. Really? Like Black Lives Matter? You against that also?

[ProfessorGAC]

22. Is There A Video Having To Explain It?

No.
Foolish question and silly reply.

[BannonsLiver]

23. LOL

[Midnight Writer]

26. How about re-envision the police?