On pulling down statues

[struggle4progress]

Last edited Sun Jul 5, 2020, 12:16 AM - Edit history (1)

I really detest mobs. A functioning democracy requires some discipline and deliberative process

If today I were to cheer for people tearing down monuments themselves, without political process, what could I say tomorrow if other mobs tore books from the shelves of libraries and tossed them into bonfires because the content offended them?

My parents' generation witnessed that, and the movement it spawned was terrifying

[struggle4progress]

1. It is a mistake to judge the past entirely by the standards of the present

Genesis (for example) tells us Noah was a righteous man in his generation and so the rabbis have commented "He would not have been considered righteous today"

As a young man, I sneered at many deceased people for their weaknesses, and I was especially contemptuous of the Victorians. Later, when I knew more, I realized that the Victorians, for all their stupidities and hypocrisies, had essentially handed us all the technical tools from which our modern era was built

Gertrude Stein, at start of her Making of Americans, stated many of the issues well:

Once an angry man dragged his father along the ground through his own orchard. "Stop!" cried the groaning old man at last, "Stop! I did not drag my father beyond this tree."

It is hard living down the tempers we are born with. We all begin well, for in our youth there is nothing we are more intolerant of than our own sins writ large in others and we fight them fiercely in ourselves; but we grow old and we see that these our sins are of all sins the really harmless ones to own, nay that they give a charm to any character, and so our struggle with them dies away.

[Devilsun]

2. Agree,however

When the progress is measured in centuries, it's understandable how one can find patience.

[struggle4progress]

3. Law does matter

Sometime during the Nixon era, I thought about the material and political conflicts that might define my life

And I concluded that I was likely to be murdered by right-wing mobs in later life

Perhaps it is a species of paranoia -- but I have never gotten over the idea that this outcome was a real possibility

I have always been sympathetic to Proudhon's dictum: Laws: We know what they are, and what they are worth! They are spider webs for the rich and mighty, steel chains for the poor and weak, fishing nets in the hands of government!

But a dialog in Man for All Seasons also has something worthwhile to say:

William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!

Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?

William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!

Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

[TreasonousBastard]

4. Absolutely right. Mobs are by definition uncontrolled and eventually uncontrollable. Even...

the mob you like change change direction too easily.

Those are Nazis in that picture, who were never any good to begin with. A study of the French Revolution, The Terror, and Robespierre proving that axiom about absolute power might prove useful.

[struggle4progress]

5. Columbus (of course) is not an unambiguous hero

He sailed as part of the Spanish empire's attempt to solidify its power; he was confused about where he had arrived when he arrived there; and he had no qualms about taking captive people he found there. He is not an unblemished hero in this century

The effect of his adventures, however, had a remarkable effect at the time. That effect was not his own solitary work, because the Italian Renaissance, the invention of movable type, and the Protestant Reformation all contributed to the upheaval. But the accidental discovery of a new continent did contribute to the spirit of the time

I myself have no problem with removing his statues, where local voters agree

I am less than pleased, however, to learn of mobs pulling them down, because such acts stink of narrow and potentially violent self-righteousness: they are the acts of petty pharisees, not of thoughtful and tolerant people

I know the area in Baltimore where the Columbus statue was thrown into the harbor, though it has been some time since I was last there. My grandparents had a restaurant there, right before the Depression; my aunt (now deceased) was born in a small apartment nearby. The statue stood near the Little Italy neighborhood, which has had some wonderful restaurants. I do not know what the Columbus statue meant to Italian-Americans nearby when it was erected, but I suspect it was part of their effort to claim some ownership in their new country

There could have been continuing and productive political dialog about this statue:

City Council President Brandon Scott, who is also the Democratic nominee for mayor, released a statement late Saturday night, saying: "I suggested that the last administration remove this statue when they removed the Confederate monuments. I support Baltimore's Italian-American community and Baltimore's indigenous community. I cannot, however, support Columbus."

Mob actions prevent such dialog

[uppityperson]

6. There's a difference between having to pass by a racist statue to go somewhere and

checking out a library book that no one else can see.

Public viewing vs private. IMO

[struggle4progress]

10. Columbus Statue at Inner Harbor

... DEDICATED TO THE
CITY OF BALTIMORE
BY THE
ITALIAN AMARICAN
ORGANIZATION UNITED
OF MARYLAND
AND THE ITALIAN
AMERICAN COMMUNITY
OF BALTIMORE ...
https://statues.vanderkrogt.net/object.php?webpage=CO&record=usmd01

... Each year the Italian community holds a Wreath-laying ceremony in Columbus Piazza before it hosts the Columbus Day Parade, in existence for over 127 years. In 2019, a new Italian Heritage Festival replaced the traditional parade ...
https://www.promotioncenterforlittleitaly.org/columbus-piazza.html

[GulfCoast66]

7. I agree. They should come down. But by a process.

Cheering on mob action will be a double edged sword.

They got a pass from most with the confed guys because most disagree. But when the start on ex-president it will hurt the Democratic cause.

[frazzled]

8. In addition

I think that it distracts from the intended goals. Tearing down a hunk of bronze or marble does nothing to change conditions for the aggrieved. It doesn’t amend the judicial system or eradicate grievous police abuses; it doesn’t even prevent people from continuing to be stopped for driving while black. It doesn’t achieve investment in underfunded neighborhoods or schools, and it doesn’t change food deserts or erase economic inequality. And of course, mob actions against works of art can be directed at the noble and worthy in addition to those deemed retrograde. The “degenerate” art removed or destroyed by the same forces that burned books is a case in point.

Absolutely yes, the removal of offensive statues should be petitioned through political process or pressure on private institutions. And nothing should be torn down without replacing it with something new. Artists are workers too, and they need commissions to survive. And we need them to conceive of the next generation of public sculpture to represent the ideals of our own times. And those new works may be found deficient 50 or 100 years from now. They are not sacrosanct, but they are subject to democratic processes, both in their commission and decommission.

See fine article at:
https://www.artforum.com/interviews/paul-farber-and-ken-lum-on-reimagining-symbols-and-systems-of-justice-83303

[struggle4progress]

11. +!

[JI7]

9. I agree, But I also think there needs to be more focus on reform of Police and other institutions

themselves.

I feel like some of those tearing down statues that went beyond the confederates just wanted to destroy things. Like the ones who wanted to break windows and loot during the protests. These people don't care about the issues being protested. They see it as an opportunity to have their fun while everyone is focused on the protests.

[moondust]

12. Handle with care.

They are, after all, works of art.

IMO, carefully put them in a museum where the public can VOLUNTARILY view and pay their respects to them if they so choose. The public should not have questionable historical figures forced upon them in the public space. They'll still be in the history books.

[kentuck]

13. Eventually, this will be what happens...

I hope.

This is only the beginning of a revolutionary process, in my opinion.

[ansible]

14. It's stupid and anyone who supports it is being incredibly short-sighted

Now Trump and his cabal have the perfect ammunition to claim that the democratic party is anti-white. Expect this to get thrown around a lot on the run-up to November.