J.K. Rowling, B.Weiss & N. Chomsky Among Dozens Sign Open Letter Calling for End to Cancel Culture

[lapucelle]

J.K. Rowling, Bari Weiss, Noam Chomsky, and more than 100 other writers, scholars, and academics signed a letter in Harper’s Magazine calling for “open debate” and an end to cancel culture, sparking backlash from both liberal and conservative pundits.

https://www.mediaite.com/news/j-k-rowling-bari-weiss-and-noam-chomsky-among-dozens-to-sign-open-letter-calling-for-end-to-cancel-culture/

You can read the letter here:

https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/

[soothsayer]

1. Cancel Rowling

[FreeState]

27. This - she's a bigot n/t

[JonLP24]

2. What a stupid letter

There is really no such thing as cancel culture and if you do want to bring it up there is Colin Kaepernick. My mom sold DirectTV and she had a lot of customers call and cancel NFL Sunday Ticket because of Trump.

There were also countless Bill O'Reilly boycotts and boycotts of anyone who didn't kiss Bush's ass during the Iraq war.

[lapucelle]

3. That seems to be the general consensus. N/T

[soothsayer]

4. And don't forget these (courtesy of Daniel dale)

Link to tweet

?s=21

[soothsayer]

6. If you can't see twitter, it's trump urging to:

Cancel rolling stone subscriptions, hbo, Macy’s cards, and NYmag.

[Nevilledog]

7. +1

[lapucelle]

10. I find some of the names attached to that letter bewildering.

I wonder who actually wrote it.

[Mike 03]

15. Me too.

Chomsky?

[Miguelito Loveless]

17. Yeah, that jumped out at me too.

Some comedians have been whining as well because they feel it infringes on who they can make fun of.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

21. His understanding of the alt-right and the rise of fascism hasn't really kept up with reality.

[RobinA]

143. Maybe He Thinks

cancel culture is wrong on its face, a position with which I completely agree. It's mob behavior, which is prevalent on both sides right now.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

145. "Both sides" of what?

[RobinA]

176. Right And Left

Red and blue. Liberal and conservative

[fleur-de-lisa]

5. "Wait until you hear about racism and sexism."

Judd Legum @JuddLegum

If you are concerned with how "cancel culture" is creating unjust outcomes in the workplace, wait until you hear about racism and sexism.

1:46 PM · Jul 7, 2020

Link to tweet

[mountain grammy]

114. Exactly!

[oasis]

126. Telling it like it is.

[Sanity Claws]

8. Do not even use the term Cancel Culture

It is stupid, meaningless.

I will boycott and disassociate with anyone I want to.

[Miguelito Loveless]

18. "Cancel Culture"

Being held responsible for the vile things you say or write.

[Sanity Claws]

23. Holding people responsible is right

It just seems to me that the Right Wing is controlling the narrative and I don't want to buy into their language.
The first time I heard the term Cancel Culture was last week and it was from the Princess.

[Miguelito Loveless]

34. Oh, I agree with you

it is a right-wing term. I was just translating it. I am surprised by a few names on the list, but if I had to bet, I would guess that if I ran down each name, it would skew right.

[snort]

43. You'd be able to run them down faster

if you have a shot of liquid diamond.

[lame54]

22. Hold on a minute...

You are obligated to give money to J.K. Rowling and others who are openly offensive

OBLIGATED

In fact, it is their money that you are holding for them temporarily

[Sanity Claws]

25. haha. You are so right.

[backscatter712]

102. "Cancel Culture" is a right-wing shibboleth.

I mean, how dare we call out shitty, bigoted behavior, and how dare we cause bigoted shitheads to be inconvenienced with consequences for their actions.

[Celerity]

199. +100000

[JNelson6563]

9. The only ones who cry about this are those who suck.

Pathetic.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. Imagine being sad when you have to hear the little people's objections to your views.

[janterry]

12. I've always respected Chomsky

good for him! As a liberal, I value all speech.

Wow, just looked at it myself. So many wonderful people I respect. LOVE this.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

20. What does it mean to "value all speech"?

[lame54]

26. There is a difference between...

Criminalizing speech and choosing not to reward it

[Nevilledog]

31. +1

[janterry]

46. Cancel culture is practiced by those that are afraid

of ideas.

As a liberal, I am not

[LanternWaste]

49. Cancel culture is simply a passive method designed to avoid the consequences of free speech

See? Again, we can simply make allegations without any evidence to support them.

[cabot]

53. I agree with you

There are quite a few people who "cancel" those with whom they disagree. A free flow of ideas is a good thing, not living in an echo chamber.

[lame54]

59. Bullshit...

It's built into capitalism
It's actually the best part if it

[hunter]

70. I hate wind turbines. I'm a radical environmentalist and leftist.

w

I neutered my television. No cable, no satellite, no broadcast, and best of all, no commercials!

Do you hate me? Are you afraid?

[Caliman73]

71. Disagree strongly.

There is a part of cancel culture that can be toxic, like any other idea that is corrupted or maybe taken too far. However, the idea of the "free market place of ideas" where the best ideas will win out is a farce, especially when there are people and groups that argue in bad faith and use their resources to lie, trick, and buy their way into legitimacy.

If it were simply academic and arguments did not have real world consequences like for instance, the Blood Libel, The arguments against homosexuality that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths throughout history, the witch trials that lead to innocent women being killed, the wars that have been fought for "liberty" when it was really about commerce; then that would be different. People who advocate against marginalized groups having the right to simply exist, are not legitimate viewpoints.

No one is "afraid" of ideas. Many people are rightfully wary of the influence of money, fame, and power in pushing stupid ideas to the top when they should be in the dustbin of history.

[Doodley]

84. Very well said.

[lostnfound]

104. Yep. No need to pay bigots to spout their bigotry. Nt

[Cuthbert Allgood]

39. So when Rowling spouts TERF nonsense, what should we do?

She has the right to say it, but when she says it, there are likely going to be consequences. Or shouldn't there be because we have to "value" her speech?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

50. We ShOuLd VaLuE It

[TubbersUK]

62. Whatever you do gird your loins before daring to dissent on the one of her Twitter threads

Tried it a couple of times and never again - she keeps a very uncivil house ironically, some of her followers are rabid & beyond obnoxious - to the extent that it's almost impossible to be heard in my experience.

[backscatter712]

113. My money is mine - I tend to avoid buying things from people that piss me off.

And bigotry pisses me off.

[RobinA]

147. She Should Not Be Punished

for her speech. You are free to not buy her product, but cancel culture involves a mass response. Even using the snarky name opponents give her opinion is part of a mass response. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you have to DO anything.

[Humanist_Activist]

153. Why shouldn't transgender people mass respond?

Should the marginalized stand up against those who would marginalize them?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

164. She's not being punished for her speech. People are pushing back on a platform that allows such

things.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you have to DO anything.

Bigotry is not a "disagreement." It is violence, and insidious at that. People absolutely should do something when they see it.

[RobinA]

179. Rowling's Disagreement

with transgender people is one way of looking at an issue, transgender people have another way of looking at the same issue. Their two views are not the same, they disagree. Both views exist among people who spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff. One view is currently considered THE acceptable view, the other is considered unacceptable. Intellectual tolerance being in short supply these days, people holding the unacceptable position are at risk of being cancelled.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

180. "Sure, just like David Duke's disagreement with Black people is one way of looking at an issue,

Black people have another way of looking at the same issue. Their two views are not the same, they disagree. Both views exist among people who spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff. One view is currently considered THE acceptable view, the other is considered unacceptable. Intellectual tolerance being in short supply these days, people holding the unacceptable position are at risk of being cancelled."

What does "being cancelled" look like?

[Voltaire2]

178. Block her vile hate speech.

That does not deprive her of any free speech rights unless a government is doing the blocking.

[LanternWaste]

48. One imagines that if we value speech, we then realize the consequences of that speech.

"As a liberal, I value both effect and consequence..."

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, and each as without merit as the other.

[kcr]

103. Well, except for the speech deemed "cancel culture"

Doesn't seem like you value that much.

I'm disappointed Chomsky signed on to such Trumpish nonsense.

[Squinch]

13. Wow. This is really stupid. You are free to say things. People are free to not like what you say.

[TubbersUK]

19. Yes - such a pompous, inane letter IMO - read it twice & can't find any substance in it n/t

[JustAnotherGen]

14. Dummies

That message is not going to get down to minority gen y's who brought me into the fold - that would be my family's next generation. If anything - they will double down and keep charging at them.

[Miguelito Loveless]

16. Ummm, no...

Rowling brought this on herself. No one has called for her books to be "cancelled", so I don't know what her beef is. Like most people who use the term "cancel culture" they are allergic to criticism. Rowling has put up with "cancel culture" for decades, with Conservatives calling for her books to be banned and burned. And yet, only now is she mad about it, because she is getting pushback from her own fans for her anti-trans views.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

58. As a person that has read her tweets/essay repeatedly

I’m baffled as to what the “anti-trans” views are.

She has praised trans people and has sided with them. She has many who agree with her.

There are two things that she is rightfully concerned about, and they’re absolutely line with Democratic principles:

1) Women’s rights- women all over the world are still discriminated and abused on the basis of their sex. Femicide in Mexico, menstrual huts in Nepal, women are still subjugated in the Middle East. Women have fought for decades to participate in sport fairly (Title IX, the Boston Marathon, equal pay in soccer and tennis etc).

She has criticised the skirting of the word women whilst talking about important issues regarding women’s bodies (one tweet she criticised the term “people who menstruate”). We need to talk about how we can be inclusive to BOTH women and the trans/nb community while talking about issues surrounding the health of the female body.

We’re all generally well educated. I have two degrees, so I’m fairly aware of what the language surrounding menstruation and other health issues means. However, there are women who may not have had the same access to education and may not understand what it means (perhaps due to sex discrimination). In fact, the link Rowling discussed was talking about period education in the third world.

2) Children’s rights. Rowling’s latest tweets cover this quite well.

Before I got into this debate, I was actually a bit annoyed with how incredibly gendered toys were. Regular electronic toys and PINK electronic toys. The “girl” toys were in an aisle awash in pink. The toys were in an aisle marked “Boy” had toys I would have played with as a little girl. Even some of the baby clothes I got for my daughter came from the boy section because I thought to myself , “A girl can wear this!”

The deeper I got into this, I finally understood why everything became so gendered compared to my childhood. There is an organisation called Mermaids, initially founded by parents of gender nonconforming children (I was definitely one as a child). The current CEO, Susie Green talked about when she decided that her son was actually a girl (I’m going to use female pronouns from then on here), started her on puberty blockers and then finally took her to Thailand to have bottom surgery at 16.

That alone appalled me. Who thinks their 2 year old son is a girl? Who thinks it’s okay to give a child medicine to stunt their puberty? Who thinks it’s okay to take a 16-year-old child to another country to have a body part removed?

I then looked some more: Mermaids gives talks about how you can tell a child is trans. If a girl plays with GI Joe and refuses to wear dresses, they must be a boy and vice versa for boys. They were essentially saying my 8-year-old self would have been trans according to their guidelines, I was a dress-hating, dinosaur-loving, Lego fanatic at 8 and my bedroom was awash in blue, train sets and pirate ships. My parents left me alone, in fact, they indulged me in my hobbies. They never thought once that I was trans (my mum was pretty much the same at 8- dress-hating and played with “boy” toys).

Recently, the NHS (quoted by Mermaids and Stonewall) said that If you stop puberty blockers, the effects are reversible. They’ve now removed that from their guidelines. Medical professionals are worried about what effects these medicines have on the brains of children. Anecdotally, detransitioners such as Sinead Watson and Keira Bell, who is suing the Tavistock Centre, have said they’ve suffered from the effects. Trans people such as Buck Angel have talked about how cross sex hormones have negatively impacted their bodies. They all are vehemently against children getting hormones.

There’s a very good programme called Newsnight and they talked about The Tavistock Centre (one of the UKs few gender clinics)

I was so incredibly disappointed to hear about Rowling’s initial tweets but after I read her tweets, plus reading the constant abuse she got, made me change my mind on the issue. The multiple trans people I followed on twitter who explained why they supported Rowling made me understand the issue better. There is a very good “story in images” essay on Medium documenting her tweets and the replies she got from those tweets.

https://medium.com/@rebeccarc/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-activists-a-story-in-screenshots-78e01dca68d

Recently, she’s been getting hardcore porn/dick picks from TRAs on her tweets in which she praises children for their artwork for her upcoming book. This is constant male harassment on a woman.

I thought this site would have sided with her, especially since we talk about women’s issues quite a bit and often criticise countries that have limited women’s rights. Children’s rights as well.

[Miguelito Loveless]

61. She just likened transitioning to "conversion therapy"

and has postulated that children are being "forced" to transition, and that such choices are made without sober thought, professional guidance and ample reflection. She has liked and re-tweeted opinions from people who do not believe trans men/women exist.

I would point you to the website The Mary Sue, which has, until recently, been very receptive and full of praise for Rowling. Also, check out the posts from Emma Watson, Daniel Radcliff, Rupert Gint, et al, who have disagreed with Rowling's views. Also, her two major fan sites, The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

72. If you watch the BBC Newsnight excerpt

The consultants at the Tavistock are wondering if they are doing “conversion therapy” on children. This is such an enormous concern that they’ve started to speak out about it. The person currently responsible for the safeguarding of children was essentially shut out of the process (she is now suing the Tavistock Centre, her name is Sonia Appleby). This isn’t JK Rowling saying this, these are medical professionals speaking out about this. She’s giving them a platform.

The founder of MuggleNet has spoken of his support of Rowling, multiple trans people have sided with Rowling. There are celebrities, mainly male ones (The female ones seem more afraid to defend her), coming out for Rowling.

What do you notice about the statements of Watson, Radcliffe and Grint?

(Not one iota of condemnation of the misogynistic attacks on Rowling)

Evanna Lynch essentially had the same sort of statement as Watson, Radcliffe and Grint but with the addition of defending Rowling from the misogynistic attacks. What happened to Evanna? She got the exact same treatment that Rowling got and subsequently quit Twitter.

Go look at the replies under each Rowling tweet. Do you condone the rape threats, the threats of violence, the hardcore porn, the explicit dick picks that she gets from TRAs?

She has a perfectly valid reason to discuss. People can disagree with her if they want, but to threaten her or defame her while excusing people like DrPizza and, today, former Labour MP Eric Joyce, who have criticised and attacked her. Joyce himself has agreed with Stonewall’s stance on unisex toilets and championed them while mocking us women for wanting single-sex spaces.

[Miguelito Loveless]

121. I recall her being defended by the cast

against such attacks in the past, and publications such as The Mary Sue have condemned such attacks while still condemning Rowling’s anti-trans comments. Hell, I’ve defended Rowling in this thread from people crossing lines in their condemnation of her.

I absolutely condemn any personal attack against anyone who has not engaged in personal attacks, or threats of violence, in ALL cases

Why would you equate my criticism of her views with condoning the usual sewage on finds on Twitter by the usual suspects? Rowling has been subject to such attacks in the past over her books It wasn't ok them, not ok now.

[Doodley]

85. "She just likened transitioning to "conversion therapy""

If you take a two year old or a four year old and decide that child needs to start on a path to change gender, and force the child down that path, that is exactly what it is.

[Miguelito Loveless]

119. I am aware of no reputable

doctors involved is such a process.

People like Rowling claim ”many” people know this, but are fuzzy on details.

[Doodley]

127. What process are you talking about?

[Miguelito Loveless]

170. of dosing 2 and 4 year olds with hormones.

[Doodley]

182. No, I don't know of that process either, but the process of reinforcing that a

in the child he or she is the wrong gender frequently begins.

[Miguelito Loveless]

183. Again, I have seen no credible evidence that

there is widespread incidents of parents presssuing children to transition. I have seen few reports beyond the anecdotal. Of the trans people I know, this has never occurred.

[Doodley]

184. Are you kidding me?

[FunkyLeprechaun]

132. In the video of the Tavistock Centre

There are doctors worried about treating children. One such case briefly covered in the video, a female child, anonymously, said to one doctor she didn’t want to take the hormones but her mother wanted her to.

There is an example:

Iran, where being gay is illegal, essentially forces gay people to change gender. The gay people pushed to change their gender http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29832690

[Miguelito Loveless]

169. Thank you for bringing it to my attention

I shall research further.

[Miguelito Loveless]

171. One point though

The situation in Iran and other totalitarian regimes is not comparable to what Rowling is claiming is happening in the West.

[delisen]

66. Thanks for a well reasoned post. nt

[FunkyLeprechaun]

75. You're welcome

I initially disagreed with Rowling at first, due to reading friends posts on Facebook, but I saw her tweets for myself. The horrific misogyny attacks she got really made me angry, especially since I’m a woman.

There’s another author, specifically a children’s author, called Rachel Rooney. Everyone and their uncle told me that Rooney’s book was transphobic. I got the book, “My Body is Me”, since I have a 1 year old, to read to my daughter and did so last night. Once I finished reading to her, I was like, “What was so transphobic about this? What was exactly wrong with this book to make people think it was so transphobic?”

People need to stop listening to other people and read JK Rowling’s own words for themselves. They will find praise, sympathy and support for trans people (she has a paragraph in her essay dedicated to this). I’ve seen people tweet that she doesn’t say a word about trans people and I know this to be utterly false.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

69. did jk rowling write this

[romana]

81. Thank you

The knee jerk reactions to the Harper letter on this thread illustrate the need for it.

[Sophia_Of_PlanetX]

90. This is a big oof. "TRAs?" Really?

JK Rowling’s essay is unfortunately dripping with dog whistles. For example, she implies that trans people are a threat to women in the bathroom.

Here are the facts:
- Detransition rates are quite low
- I do not know the person you’re talking about, but a parent “deciding” that their child is trans sounds like laughable Conservative fear-mongering
- I have to question that Mermaids would actually say those things. Do you have any proof, like an official statement from them?
- There is not some crisis in sports because of transgender women. There are so few examples of trans women dominating sports that I find it hard to take these fears seriously.
- “The children” are not in danger. Being transgender is currently still rare and not a bad thing. They are born that way.
- Trans women are women. Trans men are men.
- I would argue any bad effects of cross-sex hormones are better than trans people killing themselves. The medical community overwhelmingly agrees with me.

J.K. Rowling is not a friend to transgender people, and views like hers contribute to the stigma that gets them killed. The reason that these views aren’t popular here are because they are Conservative horseshit pushed by the likes of Alliance Defending Freedom and the LGB Alliance.

Please show respect and refer to them as trans men / women rather than using dehumanizing terms like “TRAs.”

[FunkyLeprechaun]

94. My answers

- detransition rates overall are quite low. However most detransitioners are usually ftm and often detrans in their 20s (there are many female detrans on Twitter talking about their experiences). Consequently, most young trans people are ftm. Most older trans people are mtf.
- Susie Green of Mermaids. Here’s her Tedx talk

Here’s her on channel 4, talking about her daughter’s surgery.

https://www.facebook.com/MermaidsSusieGreen/videos/331056280854663/

- Selina Soule in Connecticut and some women in Idaho have successfully fought for their rights in sport. This is about Title IX, which gives women sex-based rights to sport.

Martina Navratilova has sided with Rowling on this issue. Yes, as Martina has said, she did play a trans woman (Renee Richards). Richards now says she shouldn’t have been allowed to play in the first place. Martina also adds that she was at the top of her game and Richards was 40 at the time and hadn’t played for years. Yet, the worlds best female tennis player had a hard time beating a basically out of shape male-bodied trans tennis player.

- there are actually no studies on the trans suicide rate among children. The “study” was simply a questionnaire answered by older trans people. Your best answer is to look at women who were trans- Sinead Watson, Keira Bell and a few others on Twitter.

Sinead’s story: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-51453612/sinead-is-worried-about-a-possible-change-in-the-law

Keira’s story- NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020

Buck Angel has said he suffered a uterine contraction from long term testosterone use. Transwomen have said they’ve suffered strokes. Some transmen have died of brain bleeds. There are absolutely no studies into the long term effects of cross hormone use and the NHS has changed their guidelines. The government is currently looking at raising the age to 18 for people to receive hormone medication. Many trans people are absolutely against medicalising children.

I literally grew up in the medical community (Mayo Clinic) and there are many doctors who are beginning to speak out against the use of cross hormones on children.

If you read Rowling’s own words, she praises and sympathises with trans people. She IS friends with trans people and has talked to them in person.

Also, TRAs are trans rights activists, they’re not necessarily transgender people. One such person is Damian Barr, a British author highly critical of Rowling and led the movement to strip Baroness Emma Nicholson of her honorary title of VP of the Booker Prizes. He tweeted blindingly transphobic missives, including a “joke” about a 6’5” trans woman failing to kill herself (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53276425). He also tweeted misogynistic and racist languages. Now, THAT was transphobia.

[Sophia_Of_PlanetX]

95. Re:

Last edited Tue Jul 7, 2020, 09:33 PM - Edit history (5)

1 - Is there any evidence for those age stats for MTF and FTMs?

2 - That’s great, but her speech was just a story about her child. I really think this is a far cry from telling parents that playing with Barbies or monster trucks makes your kid trans. I think her point was that this was how she knew her child might be trans.

Oh my god that second link was a cess pool, though. One of the posts is a made up story called “A TIM at work is ruining my life.” That crap looks like Facebook Nazi pages that are “totally legitimate tales by concerned citizens,” but all of the stories are about Jews.

3 - I’m more interested in how many schools at the moment have this issue? How many teams have trans women on them where the trans women don’t even qualify / are easily beaten by the other girls?

Edit: For the tennis anecdote, this isn’t real evidence. It’s just an anecdote for a situation that may have had other causes. In my opinion, MTF women do have a biological advantage over cis women. However, I’m not sure how pronounced the advantage is, and I could even be wrong. Also, one trans woman is going to be so different from the next that we can’t really treat a single anecdote as evidence.

4 - There are no studies about suicide on trans people who don’t transition either. The reason for this is because this would be impossible to study. We cannot find trans people who don’t self-report being trans.

5 - Those detrans stories are sad, but also not the norm (or close to it). Most transgender people do not detransition. I can find those stats if you want - I believe it was around 2% or something like that, and of those 2%, their reason for transitioning was mostly societal / due to oppression rather than not being trans.

6 - Hormone treatments do carry risks. However, the risk of not treating transgender people greatly overshadows the risks of HRT. There’s a small risk of blood clots or strokes vs an extremely high risk of suicide.

7 - Just like “some scientists are starting to speak out against climate change?” You could pick any theory and find some scientist somewhere who agrees with it. The overwhelming consensus is still with transgender people.

8 - And I bet she has lots of black friends too!

9 - Fair enough. I’ve only heard that term used disparagingly by gender critical feminists, but I could be wrong. Also, for the person that attacked J.K. Rowling, I’m sure he agrees with elements of her essay if he’s a transphobe, as her essay was also disparaging towards trans people and contained the same garbage we all hear here in the US.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

201. Fallon Fox, MtF trans, seriously injured Tamikka Brents and destroyed her career.

https://www.attacktheback.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-opponents-skull/

In 2014 Fox was fighting her female opponent Tamikka Brents. Ultimately it should have been just “another fight” for Fallon and Tamika, if Tamika did not suffer serious injuries before she was finished via TKO.

Everything happened in the first round within the first two and a half minutes. It was a messy, bloody fight and not easy for everyone to watch. During the fight Tamika suffered a concussion and fractured her orbital bone in 7 places in her skull and Fallon Fox didn’t stop until Tamika Brents was finally TKO’d. After the fight she received several staples in her head.

This is what Tamikka Brents said afterwards: "I have struggled with many women and I have never felt the strength I felt in a fight like that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say that I have never felt so dominated in my life and that I am an abnormally strong woman in my own right? I still disagree with Fox’s struggle. Any other job or career that I say I try, but when it comes to a combat sport I don’t think it’s fair.


Karsten Braasch, a male tennis player ranked 203rd on the men’s tour, was able to easily defeat Serena and Venus Williams in back-to-back exhibition matches in 1998, despite a training regimen that one journalist reportedly described as revolving around cigarettes and beer. I asked how this could happen, given the extraordinary talent and skill possessed by the Williams sisters.

Trans women are allowed in women's sports and dominate them to the point that XX women don't want to compete. Sexual dimorphism is a thing that TRAs don't want to talk about. Men have bigger muscles, stronger bones, bigger cardiovascular systems than women. You can't grow up as an XY male, under the influence of testosterone for decades, having a bigger skeleton and heavier bones, and stronger musculature, and then take some estrogen and say you're a woman.


The research I have read indicates that most kids who are unhappy with their gender are rebelling against restrictive gender roles, not their XX or XY genotype. Changing their bodies won't solve their depression and can make them sterile. Most of the kids unhappy with their gender will grow up to be gay. The problem is not their bodies, it's restrictive gender roles, which are messages society in general and individuals tell children. There are lots of doctors who are making lots of money pushing sex change operations.


Where did this "trans rights" movement come from? It's financed by rich white men who think they have the right to tell women how to be a woman, invade their spaces, and sometimes attack women in women's shelters.
https://thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology/

Women need safe women-only spaces, like locker rooms, restrooms, and women's shelters. Radfems have never tried to kill transwomen. Radfems do not hate trans people. They think transwomen have the right to exist, but not the right to tell XX women they are wrong when they talk about their periods, or pregnancy, or any of the many other experiences of XX women in society. Radfems also believe that pornography is violence against women and sex work is slavery. Violence against women is embedded in our entertainment so that we don't even see it.

[Sophia_Of_PlanetX]

204. The Federalist is a Conservative, Pro-Trump Propaganda Site. Also, Responses Below...

Last edited Fri Jul 10, 2020, 10:46 PM - Edit history (10)

1 - Fallon Fox is an extreme example that we probably agree about. Other sports are much different, to the point that comparing them would be dishonest. Please explain how a trans woman playing softball (for example) is some dire crisis that will destroy womens’ sports.

2 - Karsten Braasch, a cis-male who isn’t on hormones is comparable to a trans woman who has been on HRT for years? That’s just plain ridiculous. You do realize that trans women lose a lot of their muscle mass, and by extension, strength when they transition, right? Their strength is closer to, if not at levels of cis-women.

3 - Where is this supposed epidemic of trans women dominating sports? I always see the same few examples passed around as if they’re the norm. Also, of course MEN have bigger muscles - they’re still full of testosterone. Yes, trans women do have permanent effects from testosterone, but acting as if they retain even a fraction of their strength and speed is totally wrong.

4 - Do you have any evidence for these claims, because they seem like they would be impossible to study. What % of kids who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria grow up to be gay? Also, how is this relevant when we're talking about gender identity?

“The problem is restrictive gender roles” - that’s also false. Gender dysphoria is a real thing that has nothing to do with gender roles. Also, I see this said by TERFs despite them having no evidence of it at all. Suddenly they’re experts on gender dysphoria? Even if we completely abolished gender, transgender people would still have dysphoria - a disconnect with their physical bodies.

5 - This is off in conspiracy land, and is really silly. Can we rule out George Soros being involved as well? Maybe the Clintons? /s

6 - We already do (though not always safe), yes they do, yes they do, and no they don’t. Also, please call them what they are: TERFs. Whatever supposed good you think they might be doing in society, I can guarantee you are completely mistaken. There is nothing “feminist” about waging hate campaigns against trans women and trying to deny them medical treatment. Honestly, I think it’s disgusting and a disgrace to feminism.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

205. Radfems DO NOT HATE transwomen. They have a right to exist.

I have a problem with the ones who tell women how they should act, how they should look, and take away the label "women" from the XX female (AFAB--assigned female at birth).
Nobody I know is trying to deny trans women medical treatment, IF THEY ARE AN ADULT. I don't think children under 18 should be given hormones for sex change when this will make them sterile and cause medical problems.


#1, #3--Softball does not measure specific time, distance or speed, unlike track and field. A transgender high school girl in Connecticut, Terry Miller, has shattered the state track records for girls, prompting two girls to sue. A quote from one of them:

“It’s very frustrating and heartbreaking when us girls are at the start of the race and we already know that these athletes are going to come out and win no matter how hard you try. They took away the spots of deserving girls, athletes … me being included.”
So said Selina Soule, a junior from Bloomfield High School who “missed qualifying for the 55-meter in the New England regionals by two spots. Two spots, she said, that were taken by biological boys,” according to an article published on Intellectual Takeout:
Had the boys who identify as girls not been allowed to compete, Selina would have placed sixth, qualifying to run the 55 in front of college coaches at the New England regionals.
Instead, she placed eighth, watching the 55 from the sidelines after qualifying in only the long jump, an event in which the transgender athletes didn’t compete. …

#2---Since when do trans women "lose their muscle mass"? You really think a man who takes estrogen is going to lose the average 26 extra pounds of muscle mass he has compared to a woman? You got any data about how much weaker these transwomen become when they are not getting testosterone from their testes?

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-006-0351-1
From a study of hand grip strength comparison between untrained men and elite female athletes: The present findings show that the differences in hand-grip strength of men and women are larger than previously reported. An appreciable difference still remains when using lean body mass as reference. The results of female national elite athletes even indicate that the strength level attainable by extremely high training will rarely surpass the 50th percentile of untrained or not specifically trained men.

https://www.livescience.com/52998-women-combat-gender-differences.html From the cited article:

But in one way, the sex difference is stark: Men are physically stronger than women, on average. A study in the Journal of Applied Physiology found that men had an average of 26 lbs. (12 kilograms) more skeletal muscle mass than women. Women also exhibited about 40 percent less upper-body strength and 33 percent less lower-body strength, on average, the study found.

The researchers found that height and weight differences between men and women could explain only about half of the difference in strength. ReseAnd a 2006 study in the same journal revealed that men had much stronger grips than women — the difference was so big that 90 percent of the women scored lower than 95 percent of the men. The team also looked at highly trained female athletes who excelled at sports requiring a strong grip, such as judo or handball. Though these women did have a stronger grip compared with other women, they still performed worse than 75 percent of the men on this task.

In general, men are also faster than women. The fastest woman in the world, Florence Griffith Joyner, ran the 100-meter dash in just 10.49 seconds in 1988, and that record remains unbroken. Yet her fastest time wouldn't have even qualified her for the men's 2016 Olympic competition, which requires competitors to finish the 100-meter sprint in 10.16 seconds or less.archers reporting in 1993 in the European Journal of Applied Physiology found that men's brawn could also be attributed to a larger cross-section in individual muscle fibers.

#6--This is very relevant when talking about gender dysphoria. There are many comorbidities, like anxiety, depression, body dysmorphic disorder, eating disorders. If a child is anxious, depressed, and searching for an identity, the answer is NOT to permanently and radically alter their body through hormones and surgery. The comment below talks about this.

https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/01/17/most-children-and-teens-with-gender-dysphoria-also-have-multiple-other-psychological-issues/

Here's a comment on the above article from a parent who has lived with a child with rapid onset gender dysphoria.

When your daughter all of the sudden says she’s a boy at age 12 without a single symptom of gender dysphoria prior to that (this is called Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria – ROGD), you start to take this seriously and not as a political cause, a civil rights movement, or an interesting scholarly debate.

These findings demonstrate what I have lived. Kids are being diagnosed with anxiety and depression now more than ever before. It’s these kids that are struggling with fitting in, with being perfect, with hating their bodies that find the siren song of trans.

Thankfully, we saw our daughter’s depression (and flirtation with an eating disorder) just before her claim she was transgender. In the US, psychologists typically follow the APA treatment guidelines of affirmation therapy and so her licensed therapist affirmed her as a boy and recommended a gender expert to start her on testosterone and plan her future surgeries. We quit therapy.

This is real. This is what is happening in nice, normal, non-bigoted, loving homes all across the world.

After a year of family suffering with no professional help and simply removing her access to transgender promotion on You Tube (Miles McKenna was her favorite vlogger) and some family bonding, she came to the realization on her own that she was not transgender. I can guarantee that had we kept her in therapy and affirmed her belief, that she would be transitioning to male.
Here are her words, “I realized that I just wanted a reason for the way I felt, that the second I found this seemingly possible solution, I grasped onto it and wouldn’t let go. It seemed like the perfect solution; it came with something to fight for as well. There were others like me, and it felt good to finally belong somewhere. I was finally a part of something bigger than myself. It seemed perfectly imperfect. But now I was realizing that this was not the solution. I was suddenly grateful that I had not transitioned. It would have ruined me.”

Wake up. There is a terrible mistake and a terrible consequence to medicalizing children with such a paucity of data. Forget data – there is NO reliable diagnosis. The assumption that children are infallible in their understanding of who they are is ludicrous.

As a PhD Neuroscientist, I am well aware that the brain, especially the cortical structures that foster reasoning and judgement, are not fully developed until approximately age 25. No one should be providing experimental medicines with known side effects (some irreversible) to children with an neurophysiologically un-diagnosable, theoretical, undefined “condition” of feeling like they are “in the wrong body.”

[Sophia_Of_PlanetX]

206. Every TERF I've seen online or IRL absolutely hates trans women and wants them not to exist.

Last edited Sat Jul 11, 2020, 12:52 PM - Edit history (22)

The idea that trans women are "taking away" the term woman is ludicrous. They are women, and being a woman isn't a zero-sum thing where trans women being women means cis-women are less of a woman. That doesn't make any sense. They are trans women.

Obsession with chromosomes is becoming almost cult-like. Nobody sees your chromosomes, and they should not define a person. I see this sort of absolutism as being no different from race realism, where white supremacists treat genes that make a person black as somehow defining their entire existence. It’s gross and scientifically incorrect.

For #1, what I was getting at is, I'm tired of these reactionary anecdotes that mostly circulate in right-wing media. The problem is, the amount of time someone is on HRT is important, as are the actual changes (which may vary). I’m trying to find studies about trans women who have had T levels in female ranges for > 2 years.

#2 - Always. Are you familiar with the effects of testosterone? It helps people build and maintain muscle, and without it, they cannot. I would assume so, but I'm not sure if there's a study out there saying exactly how much muscle they lose. This is hard, because it also varies from woman to woman.

A study about hand-grip strength between cis-women and cis-men isn't relevant. I'm not really going to argue trans women don't have an advantage, because, as I said before, I don't really believe that. However, studies between cis-people really aren't important here, since we already know those things.

#6 - You are putting the cart before the horse here. Gender dysphoria does cause multiple mental disorders, such as depression. The fact that having a female brain and male body, or vice-versa can cause mental health issues isn’t exactly surprising.

Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD) is a fake, pseudo-medicalese term invented by the right-wing news circles and reactionaries. No legitimate doctor will ever honor that crap. Also, the doctor in the article says we should strictly enforce kids’ gender assigned at birth in a form of conversion therapy by ripping toys out of their hands and replacing them with “correct” toys. Ew... Why would anyone who is “gender critical” want this?

Some kids will realize that they aren't trans, because they aren't. Others who are trans will be repressed and shamed by their parents so badly that their depression will worsen, which can sometimes look the same as being cured. All this does is teach kids that they should be ashamed of themselves and hide who they are. This sort of shaming is the same repression felt by those who are LGB+.

I'm not really sure what the answer is. How do we determine which kids are really trans and which aren't? Perhaps we need to work on better ways to block puberty that don't have lasting side-effects. This would allow for a choice later in life and give kids time to figure themselves out.

I do urge anyone who calls themselves “gender critical” to use introspection to determine if they actually are what they call themselves. For any one who is, do you have a problem with trans people? If so, why? Is it because you feel people with XY chromosomes should look / dress / act a certain way? Is it because your identification as a woman is special to you, and someone adapting your identity without XX chromosomes feels like an attack on it? Are you really gender critical if you’re trying to impose gendered expectations on others?

If a cis-man acted traditionally feminine, wore a dress, spoke with a high, feminine voice, had their nails painted, had a traditionally female name, wore makeup, had earrings, and had long hair, would this invoke a feeling of disgust? If so, are you really gender critical? I think these are important thoughts for anyone who is GC. Are you driven by true gender abolition, or, are you driven by disgust and bigotry?

[cabot]

99. Thanks. Like you, at first, I was disappointed

But then I actually read what she said. She brings up some interesting points that are worthy of discussion - for example, giving children hormone supplements. The long-term effects aren't known. Maybe when they're 16 or older, I can see it then.

[janterry]

133. Have you looked at the 'TransTrain' Documentary?

There are two parts. Here's part one.

(for those interested, questions abound in Sweden, too). This show was produced for prime time TV in Sweden. Just like England, gender clinics are under review in Sweden (in part due to this documentary). They do not want to abolish them, of course, but to bring in more safe guards.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

135. I haven't

It sounds like it echos the documentary on Tavistock.

There are others, on BBC 3, detailing trans children. I don’t remember what it was called, but I saw a clip where a 10 year old was saying that they were looking forward to their puberty blocker injections.

I immediately thought back to when I was 10, I never looked forward to any sort of needle going in my body (I had to have blood checked every so often). I dreaded it. For me to see a child say this makes me question a lot of things.

[janterry]

136. We knew a family in FL

with a boy who was very interested in girl stuff. As a preschooler, he wore dresses exclusively. (Went to a local preschool in princess dresses)

I remember once sitting next to his mother and she said, as he played on the slide (with his pink cast): He's a lot more butch these days.

(She was laughing a bit, unconcerned - both his mothers are gay, btw - as is his father). They didn't attach any particular meaning to how he expressed himself. It was all fine.

Anyway, the last time we saw him, (just a few years ago), he was in college. He might be gay (or not - really have no idea). But he was comfortable, standing in a group of other college-aged kids at our park.

Most kids who push at so-called gender norms will grow up fine, if allowed to do so. There's a rush to diagnose these kids.

I think that's a mistake.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

186. Anybody who believes

That there is some kind of massive push to diagnose children as Trans and get them on the path to transitioning clearly is not Trans nor do they know anything about how hard it is to transition. This kid was lucky to have parents whom accepted his gender non confirming behavior as a kid. While not all GNC children ultimately transition, it doesn't prove that there aren't some whom do. Certainly there are feminine boys and masculine girls but what makes somebody Trans is they don't identify with their assigned gender.

[janterry]

191. The tavistock therapists believe there is a push.

But you don't?

This is the problem. The professionals are raising alarms. Listen to them. Listen to what the professionals in Sweden are saying (video is up thread). In England.

In the US.

Sometimes when you get too close to something, you can't see it's totality. Likewise, when you get too far away, you also lose perspective. The trick is to look at both.

That's what I'm trying to do. There is wisdom in both perspectives. I'm trying to listen to everyone.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

187. You aren't Trans

So yeah, it probably would be hard for you to understand. For this child, the possibility of going through the wrong kind of puberty IS something they wouldn't look forward to.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

189. I'm not trans, that's right

So I did follow trans people on Twitter/Facebook in order to understand the issue better.

I also follow quite a few detransitioners.

The overarching agreement from both trans and detrans is that they are completely against “transing” children medically. They agree that the age should be raised to 18 for taking cross-sex hormones, something the U.K. government is looking into doing.

Even doctors are worried about the long-term effects of blocking puberty in children in terms of brain development.

If a person, of legal age, wants to be trans, it has to be their choice alone after a few years of therapy.

The detransitioners have said that they wished they had some sort of therapy before starting their transition (they felt like they were rushed into top surgery and given hormone medicines hours after their first appointment). The trans people have said they had years of therapy before deciding this is what they wanted. For example, Buck Angel said he had 10 years of therapy first, he has said that was quite a long time to be in it but it helped him understand transitioning is what he wanted. He has said that he wished he had known about the long-term effects of medication though (he suffered some severe side effects of the medication).

[Proud Liberal Dem]

198. 10 years of therapy?!

That's not manageable for a lot of Trans people, some of whom suffer crippling dysphoria. Doctors are required to provide information about the long-term effects of HRT. It's all given to you when you go in to see an Endocrinologist. Of course, he transitioned at a different point in time, so I don't know what his experience was but for most people the risks of medical transitioning are smaller to the risks of not medically transitioning due to severe depression, suicide.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

200. Buck himself said therapy took a while

But he thinks there should be some sort of therapy before setting on the trans path. I guess he wanted to make absolutely certain this is what he wanted.

Fionne Orlander hasn’t had feminising surgery yet on her face and she was in therapy for a long time before deciding she wanted the surgery. She is currently saving up for it. She agrees with the therapy though.

There is a story, one of many, that proves Buck/Fionne’s concerns (they both advocate therapy before transitioning)- https://thevelvetchronicle.com/double-mastectomy-at-15-detrans-16-year-old-now-seeks-reversal/

[Proud Liberal Dem]

203. Therapy is always part of the process

Not usually 10 years of it but pretty much everybody has to go through some therapy prior to getting a letter to start HRT (I did). There seems to be a misperception out there by some people that getting on hormones, surgeries, etc. is easy but it's not. It's even harder in the UK from what I've heard. Many Trans people there have to live in their gender for a year before they are even allowed to start HRT. Making things easier for people to access Trans healthcare should be made easier, not harder, in most cases. And nobody is being FORCED into it.

[RobinA]

148. Her Opinions

are not currently on the "approved" list, so she must be heckled. It's every citizen's right to verbally beat on people with whom they don't agree. Especially if the current thought is running against the person and you have a crowd behind you.

[Devil Child]

24. Sounds good to me n/t

[Owl]

101. Sounds good to me too.

[Bleacher Creature]

28. WTF happened to Rowling??? NT

[WhiskeyGrinder]

29. She's been TERFing for years.

[TubbersUK]

35. She's upset because she's down to her last 14.3 million Twitter followers poor thing

and clearly a victim of cancel culture

[Miguelito Loveless]

37. Her two major fan groups

MuggleNet and Leaky Cauldron have condemned her views. As have practically the entire cast of her movies.

[soothsayer]

30. Cancel the cancel culture?

No hint of irony there?

[hunter]

32. "Cancel" is not censorship.

I always say whatever I damned well please here on the internet.

I always have since I first signed on in the late 'seventies.

But I have no expectation others should have to pay for it.

I always buy art as I please. I don't buy art that doesn't please me.

I've had people buy my art.

I don't watch any television that has commercials. My wife and I never run out of things to watch on DVDs and Netflix.

I buy a lot of books. There are thousands of paper books in our house, and many more on our e-readers.

I subscribe to newspapers.

I buy music and art, more often than not, direct from the artists.

How many times can I say "I" ???

Maybe I should sign a letter.

[Hekate]

33. JK Rowling wrote some absolutely genius kids' books & oversaw their wonderful movies. ...

That does not make her an authority on all aspects of culture. Ignore this.

[lapucelle]

41. Based on the recent backlash, Rowling's signature is most likely an exercise in self-service.

But Noam Chomsky signed, as did Margaret Atwood, and Steven Pinker, and Gloria Steinem, and Katha Pollitt, and Zephyr Teachout, and Randi Weingarten. That's what I find interesting.

[Hekate]

65. Which begs the question: what are they all reading into it, and what are we?

Seems to be more nuance here.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

67. Many of them are of an era that has a different concept of liberalism and progressivism than the

one we're in now, and are comfortable enough that the status quo is what they prefer.

[lapucelle]

78. I don't think that is what is meant by illiberalism.

adjective: illiberal
1. opposed to liberal principles; restricting freedom of thought or behavior.

I'm not sure what this has to do with eras, generational differences, the status quo, or even politics.

[obamanut2012]

36. Rowling has already been cancelled by most of us

She is a sociopathic bigot. Evil AF.

As a Gryffindor, I fight evil, and she's evil.

[Miguelito Loveless]

40. *sigh*

She is wrong on this issue. VERY wrong. And she is conflating some of her own trauma into her argument. I don't think she is a sociopath, or evil. Come on, let's reserve that definition for the truly deserving.

It pains me to see her ignorance undo a lot of good she has done, but she has done good. I grieve for the betrayal felt by teh trans community, many of whom found hope in her work. She reminds me of Sirius Black, a good person whose hatred of his family blinded him to his mistreatment of others (Snape and Kreature).

[Maeve]

56. There you go, being reasonable!

Good analogy, btw

[Miguelito Loveless]

60. A number of my heroes have disappointed me over the years

But then, I have done and said some pretty bad things, and been forgiven.

[CatLady78]

195. ...

She is not sociopathic or evil but maybe her trauma is making her less clear-sighted than she should be.

Even if I weren't a GLBTQ ally (and I am), during a Pandemic, with climate crises/economic depressions in the offing, keeping Trans people out of bathrooms would not be my top priority. This is how the GOP and the anti-science, anti-environment, far right uses nonsensical framing to not just perpetuate bigotry but to also deflect attention from their real failures and crimes and to perpetuate class warfare using bogus crap.

Why during a US election year, in the middle of BLM, she started this up baffles me. There are actual feminist issues-MeToo was one...that she could have put her energy into. BLM is a real movement - that is a real issue. This stuff is just trolling and she is not a troll so it is weird.


It isn't for me to say what someone else's priorities should be. But Greta Thunberg has a point about our failing future generations...The anti-science, anti-environment, class warring, creepy bigoted far right is going to TRASH the place if this buffoon is reelected.
Imagine this creep as a lame duck....

[Miguelito Loveless]

196. Agreed

There are MULTIPLE, critical problems facing us right now, and "scary trans people" are not only not a problem, they don't exist outside people's fevered imaginations.

Ignorance is going to doom us. Willful ignorance, nay PRIDEFUL ignorance is will doom us at supersonic speed.

[CatLady78]

197. Exactly.nt

[tritsofme]

44. Sociopathic and evil? That seems a bit ridiculous.

[Miguelito Loveless]

63. Agreed.

There are some people discussed on this board that meet this description. Rowling is not one. Just a flawed human, with bad facts, and an blind spot that will not admit error.

[musicblind]

108. What we're seeing is the death of nuance.

Criticizing cancel culture is difficult because what they are fighting for is truth and justice.

However, being right doesn't mean your tactics are. You can be one-hundred percent correct and yet blow the moral high ground by overplaying your hand.

If someone disagrees with JK Rowling, boycott her stuff, but don't channel Roger Chillingworth—we know how that story ends.

[betsuni]

116. Yes!

I get annoyed when someone says or writes something rather controversial and instead of discussing the topic, there are dozens of comments about how disgusting that person is and how much they hate them. It's too much. People aren't either completely good or evil, not even in the movies. When I find someone who can discuss things in a nuanced way without making it personal, I want to make them a coffeecake or something.

[Miguelito Loveless]

124. I have criticized Rowling

but still own and enjoy her books. I will still defend her, or anyone else when criticism crosses from disagreement and debate, into abuse and threats.

We should always avoid using the tactics we condemn in others.

[obamanut2012]

138. she is sociopathic and evil

[tritsofme]

173. Right...how very silly.

[musicblind]

107. See, the 'evil' part is the problem with your statement.

JK Rowling is wrong, not evil.

The problem with cancel culture is the movement has lost the ability to tell the difference.

[soothsayer]

38. A list of people and things Donald Trump tried to get canceled before he railed against 'cancel cult

A list of people and things Donald Trump tried to get canceled before he railed against 'cancel culture'

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/politics/fact-check-trump-cancel-culture-boycotts-firings/index.html

[soothsayer]

42. *Some* people and entities Trump has tried to get canceled

Link to tweet

?s=21

Touré
Univision
Debra Messing
Macy's
Kneeling players
NYMag
Charles Krauthammer
Katy Tur
CNN
WSJ editorial board
Rich Lowry
Karl Rove
Vanity Fair
Glenfiddich
Bill Maher
Rolling Stone
Mexico

[JonLP24]

45. I actually agree on Bill Maher

but for very different reasons. Congresswomen like Illhan Omar & Rashida Talib proved Bill Maher's stereotypes to be bullshit.

[janterry]

47. I do not support any cancel culture

as I wrote, I think it's for those who are afraid of free speech.

I am not

[JonLP24]

51. I think it is the other way around

They don't want criticism or their financial bottom line harmed by their own speech.

While I have Bill Maher on my mind he is even against boycotts of people like Laura Ingraham who uses her platform -- well you know how Fox News hosts use their platform.

Bill Maher Denounces 'Bully' David Hogg For Ingraham Boycott: "Modern Way of Cutting Off Free Speech"

On Friday's presentation of HBO's Real Time host Bill Maher said while he doesn't agree with Laura Ingraham, a frequent guest on his old ABC show Politically Correct, he doesn't believe she should be a victim of a boycott because she made fun of Parkland shooting survivor-turned-activist David Hogg for being rejected from colleges he wished to attend. Maher noted the jab came after, naturally, Hogg shared the news on social media.

Maher said Hogg and his cohorts have entered the public arena and therefore they are fair game. Maher, however, did note he wishes them success in their push for gun control but said people now have the "right" to argue back if they are going to make themselves the champions of the cause, even if they are in high school.

"Maybe you shouldn't stay that about a 17-year-old, but again, he is in the arena. And then he calls for a boycott of her sponsors. Now, really, is that American?" Maher asked.



"Effectively, it is the modern way of cutting off free speech," Maher said.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/04/07/bill_maher_denounces_bully_david_hogg_for_ingraham_boycott_modern_way_of_cutting_off_free_speech.html

He shows a misunderstanding of the first amendment with this but either way I boycott all Fox New hosts.

[Mike 03]

54. Beautifully put:

They don't want criticism or their financial bottom line harmed by their own speech.

[janterry]

88. This is not what those against cancel culture think

n/t

[RobinA]

149. I Am Utterly Against

cancel culture and it has nothing to do with my bottom line. Unless, of course, I say or do something on the "unapproved" list in which case apparently I can be fired, which would affect my bottom line. Although I work for government, so that may preclude them from firing me for something that could be called speech.

[janterry]

86. I remember when the ACLU used to fight for all speech

They don't anymore.

Anyway, I disagree, mostly because those that practice 'cancel' culture boil down ideas (or partial ideas) to overarching (and hyperbolic) insults. They don't even listen to the ideas. It's a form of intellectual laziness.

I remember up here in my state, a bunch of young employees viciously attacked (verbally) their supervisor (they all pretty much quit - the young employees, who wanted to silence their boss - they thought they'd walk out and be rehired - they were not

and the boss - who had had enough and resigned).

One of the things they called her was a white supremacist (not because of anything she DID, but because she basically said no politics on official memos/twitter accounts (she wasn't restricting their personal pages, just messages that used official logos).

I always sort of chucked at that charge. I've worked with white supremacists (I mean REAL white supremacists - I have done some counseling in prison).

I just followed her story in the papers (though they published a ton of memos. And the young workers established a facebook page to outline their grievances).

Now, she might have made some mistakes (I couldn't see them, from what I read, but who knows). But I was certain that she was not a real white supremacist.

At least her husband didn't seem to think so (he married her, and he's african american.

The pendulum will swing back, I am sure. (Or I hope so!) As we all mature - and our use of the internet matures.

[musicblind]

109. Exactly.

And Trump is the last person we should emulate.

[OneGrassRoot]

52. Hmmm...

I was with the rest of you above in your reaction to this without having yet read the letter.

Here's my take:

As I said, I agree with the comments above. It's our individual right to boycott or otherwise remove ourselves from any individual or institution and what they offer. For any reason. We usually have pretty good reasons. And it's usually not a one-off;I think most of us do this when there's a pattern, wanting to give people and companies a chance to see their mistake and course correct.

That said, I think what they're alluding to is the mob mentality that can take hold on social media. It does become a frenzy, with many of the people advocating for this or that doing so without having the facts. They're just following along or going by headlines only which are often misleading, as we know.

A specific example is how many people who have been active in social justice issues for decades are increasingly hesitant to say or write much for fear of not using the correct, modern acceptable verbiage. This happens most often around issues of gender non-comformity. The people I'm thinking of want to learn but it takes a long time to break habits concerning use of pronouns. Younger people do have less patience with us about that. I've seen that time and again. If someone is famous, and they mess this up more than once, I can see them being bombarded and professionally harmed. I am NOT talking about Rowling. She's been horrid for a while now.

I can't blame the people most marginalized and impacted by racism and bigotry if they increasingly have little patience with people, especially people of influence. (Actually, it's usually the newest "allies" who are most strident leading these group boycotts or whatever; it's often almost performative which is shitty to witness.)

Still, I am witnessing people on social media...recognizable names who have done and are doing great work...struggle with their fear of saying one wrong thing and being crucified.

This is coming from someone who believes we should absolutely be intolerant of intolerance. I advocate for shunning of anyone who displays a pattern (three strikes and you're out with me) of racist, bigoted behavior, famous or not.

So if you read this with what can be a social media mob mentality in mind, I get what they're saying.

Edit to Add: Ableist language is something a lot of us are trying hard to learn about too; unfortunately, it has been such an intrinsic part of our everyday language and we never realized the harm it caused. I'm really struggling with that in the Age of Trump.

[leftyladyfrommo]

55. Things have gone too far when someone states an

opinion , popular or not, and then gets death threats and horrendous public humiliation.

There needs to be a special box for confronting people with hate speech and physical threats. That's in a place all by itself. That's not what I am talking about.

But when it comes to the arts and thought and science people must feel free to create.

Stravinksy almost got run out of town at his first performance of The Rite of Spring. Many of our createst artworks weren't appreciated for years. Many of our greatest books were banned because people at that time didn't like what tge author was saying. A lot of our greatest scientists were labeled heretics or blasphemers.

It's a sticky wicket. We are going to have to come to terms with it.

[leftyladyfrommo]

68. In 1977 the American Nazi party planned a march

On Skokie, Il where there was a large Jewish population.

My friend contended that freedom of speech and the right to protest is protected and that it should be allowed as long as it was not illegal and no damage was done.

My argument was that a group like the Nazi Party that had a terrible history of violence against the Jews had lost their right to freedom of speech and protesting.

We never were able to agree.

[ck4829]

76. First coming to term with it... it's a symptom rather than a cause

Here's one problem: How do we STOP wholesale the heckler's veto or deplatforming? The Dixie Chicks got this treatment when they voiced their opinion on Bush and the Iraq War. The people who sents threats to them and told radio stations to stop playing them or else. It works though, it gets results. The radical right is not having these moral dilemmas, I can assure you of that.

How do we say "Oh they can do that, but we shouldn't and we won't"? How can we? The bell has been rung and it can't be unrung.

Another thing is: The marketplace of ideas has gotten kind of lousy as of late, it's now "QAnon is sending messages from the future" and the white genocide conspiracy theory... they aren't adding anything to the discourse, but they are getting people killed.

[leftyladyfrommo]

83. Mobs don't like anyone who makes them feel stupid.

People react violently when they are humiliated or shamed. It's been that way for all of human history. But social media has amplified this anout a million times.

I have no answers.

[struggle4progress]

57. Rightwingers have been trying to silence me my whole life. I see no reason to copy their methods

[jalan48]

64. A list of those signing the letter..

Elliot Ackerman
Saladin Ambar, Rutgers University
Martin Amis
Anne Applebaum
Marie Arana, author
Margaret Atwood
John Banville
Mia Bay, historian
Louis Begley, writer
Roger Berkowitz, Bard College
Paul Berman, writer
Sheri Berman, Barnard College
Reginald Dwayne Betts, poet
Neil Blair, agent
David W. Blight, Yale University
Jennifer Finney Boylan, author
David Bromwich
David Brooks, columnist
Ian Buruma, Bard College
Lea Carpenter
Noam Chomsky, MIT (emeritus)
Nicholas A. Christakis, Yale University
Roger Cohen, writer
Ambassador Frances D. Cook, ret.
Drucilla Cornell, Founder, uBuntu Project
Kamel Daoud
Meghan Daum, writer
Gerald Early, Washington University-St. Louis
Jeffrey Eugenides, writer
Dexter Filkins
Federico Finchelstein, The New School
Caitlin Flanagan
Richard T. Ford, Stanford Law School
Kmele Foster
David Frum, journalist
Francis Fukuyama, Stanford University
Atul Gawande, Harvard University
Todd Gitlin, Columbia University
Kim Ghattas
Malcolm Gladwell
Michelle Goldberg, columnist
Rebecca Goldstein, writer
Anthony Grafton, Princeton University
David Greenberg, Rutgers University
Linda Greenhouse
Kerri Greenidge, historian
Rinne B. Groff, playwright
Sarah Haider, activist
Jonathan Haidt, NYU-Stern
Roya Hakakian, writer
Shadi Hamid, Brookings Institution
Jeet Heer, The Nation
Katie Herzog, podcast host
Susannah Heschel, Dartmouth College
Adam Hochschild, author
Arlie Russell Hochschild, author
Eva Hoffman, writer
Coleman Hughes, writer/Manhattan Institute
Hussein Ibish, Arab Gulf States Institute
Michael Ignatieff
Zaid Jilani, journalist
Bill T. Jones, New York Live Arts
Wendy Kaminer, writer
Matthew Karp, Princeton University
Garry Kasparov, Renew Democracy Initiative
Daniel Kehlmann, writer
Randall Kennedy
Khaled Khalifa, writer
Parag Khanna, author
Laura Kipnis, Northwestern University
Frances Kissling, Center for Health, Ethics, Social Policy
Enrique Krauze, historian
Anthony Kronman, Yale University
Joy Ladin, Yeshiva University
Nicholas Lemann, Columbia University
Mark Lilla, Columbia University
Susie Linfield, New York University
Damon Linker, writer
Dahlia Lithwick, Slate
Steven Lukes, New York University
John R. MacArthur, publisher, writer
Susan Madrak, writer
Phoebe Maltz Bovy, writer
Greil Marcus
Wynton Marsalis, Jazz at Lincoln Center
Kati Marton, author
Debra Maschek, scholar
Deirdre McCloskey, University of Illinois at Chicago
John McWhorter, Columbia University
Uday Mehta, City University of New York
Andrew Moravcsik, Princeton University
Yascha Mounk, Persuasion
Samuel Moyn, Yale University
Meera Nanda, writer and teacher
Cary Nelson, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Olivia Nuzzi, New York Magazine
Mark Oppenheimer, Yale University
Dael Orlandersmith, writer/performer
George Packer
Nell Irvin Painter, Princeton University (emerita)
Greg Pardlo, Rutgers University – Camden
Orlando Patterson, Harvard University
Steven Pinker, Harvard University
Letty Cottin Pogrebin
Katha Pollitt, writer
Claire Bond Potter, The New School
Taufiq Rahim, New America Foundation
Zia Haider Rahman, writer
Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen, University of Wisconsin
Jonathan Rauch, Brookings Institution/The Atlantic
Neil Roberts, political theorist
Melvin Rogers, Brown University
Kat Rosenfield, writer
Loretta J. Ross, Smith College
J.K. Rowling
Salman Rushdie, New York University
Karim Sadjadpour, Carnegie Endowment
Daryl Michael Scott, Howard University
Diana Senechal, teacher and writer
Jennifer Senior, columnist
Judith Shulevitz, writer
Jesse Singal, journalist
Anne-Marie Slaughter
Andrew Solomon, writer
Deborah Solomon, critic and biographer
Allison Stanger, Middlebury College
Paul Starr, American Prospect/Princeton University
Wendell Steavenson, writer
Gloria Steinem, writer and activist
Nadine Strossen, New York Law School
Ronald S. Sullivan Jr., Harvard Law School
Kian Tajbakhsh, Columbia University
Zephyr Teachout, Fordham University
Cynthia Tucker, University of South Alabama
Adaner Usmani, Harvard University
Chloe Valdary
Lucía Martínez Valdivia, Reed College
Helen Vendler, Harvard University
Judy B. Walzer
Michael Walzer
Eric K. Washington, historian
Caroline Weber, historian
Randi Weingarten, American Federation of Teachers
Bari Weiss
Sean Wilentz, Princeton University
Garry Wills
Thomas Chatterton Williams, writer
Robert F. Worth, journalist and author
Molly Worthen, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Matthew Yglesias
Emily Yoffe, journalist
Cathy Young, journalist
Fareed Zakaria
Institutions are listed for identification purposes only.

[hunter]

73. The blessed "published" might examine their motives.

I can say this because I've been blessed and not.

Maybe it's time to take this to the streets.

[jalan48]

74. Salman Rushdie, New York University

I think I'll pay attention to what he says.

[hunter]

77. My attention is not limited to names.

I've mocked gods.

[jalan48]

79. LOL-I'm sure you have.

[hunter]

80. Salman Rushdie might ask my advice.

He seems less scarred than I am.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

96. Boylan has already apologized for signing, LMAO.

[Doodley]

82. I am opposed to the cancel culture and will boycott anyone who disagrees with me!

[Jim__]

89. Some examples of what the letter might be talking about.

I just googled some of their claims. Based on the results I got - not necessarily what they were referring to - I agree with what they are saying.

From the letter:

... More troubling still, institutional leaders, in a spirit of panicked damage control, are delivering hasty and disproportionate punishments instead of considered reforms. Editors are fired for running controversial pieces; books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity; journalists are barred from writing on certain topics; professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class; a researcher is fired for circulating a peer-reviewed academic study; and the heads of organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy mistakes. Whatever the arguments around each particular incident, the result has been to steadily narrow the boundaries of what can be said without the threat of reprisal. We are already paying the price in greater risk aversion among writers, artists, and journalists who fear for their livelihoods if they depart from the consensus, or even lack sufficient zeal in agreement.

The letter: Editors are fired for running controversial pieces ...

From CNN:

New York (CNN)The editor of The New York Times' editorial page, James Bennet, has resigned, publisher A.G. Sulzberger announced Sunday. Bennet's resignation comes after the publication of a controversial op-ed from Republican Sen. Tom Cotton earlier in the week drew significant criticism, including from dozens of the newspaper's staffers. ...

The letter: ... books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity ...

From The Guardian:

The novel about a Mexican mother and her young son fleeing to the US border had been praised widely before its 21 January release and was chosen by Oprah Winfrey for her book club. But Mexican American writers have been among those criticizing American Dirt for stereotypical depictions of Mexicans and the large profit she stands to make from the story. Cummins is of Irish and Puerto Rican background.

“Jeanine Cummins spent five years of her life writing this book with the intent to shine a spotlight on tragedies facing immigrants,” said Bob Miller, president and publisher of Flatiron Books, in a statement on Wednesday. “We are saddened that a work of fiction that was well-intentioned has led to such vitriolic rancor.”

“Unfortunately, our concerns about safety have led us to the difficult decision to cancel the book tour.”
American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins review – a desperate Odyssey
Read more

American Dirt, Cummins’ third novel, had been met with massive pre-publication praise and had been selected for Oprah Winfrey’s book club. But, following its release, Cummins and Flatiron Books quickly drew fire for positioning the novel as a seminal book about Mexican immigrants. Julissa Arce Raya, the author of My (Underground) American Dream, argued American Dirt was not representative of her experience as an undocumented immigrant in America. Author Celeste Ng shared a review calling Cummins’ depictions of Mexico “laughably inaccurate”. Roxane Gay deplored Oprah’s decision to elevate the novel.

...

The letter: ... journalists are barred from writing on certain topics ...

From a CBS Local report:

...

The suit says Johnson’s editors told her she could not pursue planned stories on jailed protesters or social-media efforts to raise bail funds because a May 31 tweet she sent about the different treatment black and white people get for doing property damage was an unacceptable public display of bias.

“The Johnson Tweet was intended to — and did — mock, ridicule and protest discrimination against African Americans by society in general and by whites who equate property damage with human life,” the suit says.

It alleges that the subsequent ban on her coverage “would tend to dissuade a reasonable newspaper reporter from making or supporting claims of race discrimination.”

...

The letter: ... professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class ...

From The Guardian:

The Pulitzer-nominated poet Laurie Sheck, a professor at the New School in New York City, is being investigated by the university for using the N-word during a discussion about James Baldwin’s use of the racial slur.

The investigation has been condemned by the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (Fire), which is calling on the New School to drop the “misguided” case because it “warns faculty and students that good-faith engagement with difficult political, social, and academic questions will result in investigation and possible discipline”.

Sheck, who is white, was teaching a graduate course this spring on “radical questioning” in writing. She assigned students Baldwin’s 1962 essay The Creative Process, in which the black American writer and civil rights activist argued that Americans have “modified or suppressed and lied about all the darker forces in our history” and must commit to “a long look backward whence we came and an unflinching assessment of the record”. During the class, Sheck pointed to the 2016 documentary about Baldwin, I Am Not Your Negro, and asked her students to discuss why the title altered Baldwin’s original statement, in which he used the N-word instead of negro during an appearance on a talk show.

Sheck told Inside Higher Education that a white student had objected to her language. According to Sheck, she questioned the student about her objection, who said she had been told by a previous professor that white people should never use the term. At the end of term, the student gave a presentation about racism at the New School.

...

The letter: ... a researcher is fired for circulating a peer-reviewed academic study ...

From Law Officer:

What has become the newest craze in “cancel culture,” Michigan State Vice President of Research and Innovation Stephen Hsu has been forced to resign because he had the audacity to cite research that showed that the police are not more likely to shoot African-Americans.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

92. .

New York (CNN)The editor of The New York Times' editorial page, James Bennet, has resigned, publisher A.G. Sulzberger announced Sunday. Bennet's resignation comes after the publication of a controversial op-ed from Republican Sen. Tom Cotton earlier in the week drew significant criticism, including from dozens of the newspaper's staffers. ...

Bennet resigned after admitting he hadn't read an essay by Tom Cotton that advocated the use of the U.S. military on protestors, and the Times itself said it should not have been published.

The novel about a Mexican mother and her young son fleeing to the US border had been praised widely before its 21 January release and was chosen by Oprah Winfrey for her book club. But Mexican American writers have been among those criticizing American Dirt for stereotypical depictions of Mexicans and the large profit she stands to make from the story. Cummins is of Irish and Puerto Rican background.

The issue isn't the author's background, it's the fact that she wrote a book that makes no sense when it comes to the challenges migrants face. Viz:

Writer Myriam Gurba, another critic of the book, pointed out a particular inauthenticity: "There is a scene where the main character encounters an ice rink. And she's utterly shocked at the existence of this ice rink, as if she's unaware that winter sports are played in Mexico. And I was laughing," Gurba says. "I laughed out loud when I got to that section because I learned to ice skate in Mexico. I learned to ice skate at age 9 in Guadalajara."

Shit books get cancelled all the time.

The suit says Johnson’s editors told her she could not pursue planned stories on jailed protesters or social-media efforts to raise bail funds because a May 31 tweet she sent about the different treatment black and white people get for doing property damage was an unacceptable public display of bias.

This is a discrimination suit, claiming that white journalists who post similar tweets are not told they can't write about protests.

Sheck, who is white, was teaching a graduate course this spring on “radical questioning” in writing. She assigned students Baldwin’s 1962 essay The Creative Process, in which the black American writer and civil rights activist argued that Americans have “modified or suppressed and lied about all the darker forces in our history” and must commit to “a long look backward whence we came and an unflinching assessment of the record”. During the class, Sheck pointed to the 2016 documentary about Baldwin, I Am Not Your Negro, and asked her students to discuss why the title altered Baldwin’s original statement, in which he used the N-word instead of negro during an appearance on a talk show.

Sheck told Inside Higher Education that a white student had objected to her language. According to Sheck, she questioned the student about her objection, who said she had been told by a previous professor that white people should never use the term. At the end of term, the student gave a presentation about racism at the New School.

Sheck was cleared of discrimination, but spoke out against her employer for not taking a stand for free speech. There is definitely a discussion to be had whether using the n-word in its entirety is useful, necessary and acceptable. As a white person, I can't imagine staking my career on saying it in the lecture hall, but it's a big world.

What has become the newest craze in “cancel culture,” Michigan State Vice President of Research and Innovation Stephen Hsu has been forced to resign because he had the audacity to cite research that showed that the police are not more likely to shoot African-Americans.

Hsu is a race biologist and why he was ever at MSU is an important question for that institution.

[Jim__]

105. .

Bennet resigned after admitting he hadn't read an essay by Tom Cotton that advocated the use of the U.S. military on protestors, and the Times itself said it should not have been published.

The letter: Editors are fired for running controversial pieces ...

The New York Times is probably the most prestigious paper in the country. Publishing an opinion piece written by a US Senator is not a firing offense.

The issue isn't the author's background, it's the fact that she wrote a book that makes no sense when it comes to the challenges migrants face.

The issue is that there were threats of physical violence:

He said “there have been threats of physical violence,” which prompted the cancellation. Instead, the publisher plans to organise town hall meetings featuring Cummins and “some of the groups who have raised objections to the book.” Some of the book’s critics, however, expressed scepticism about the threats. “We have no knowledge or involvement in these safety concerns,” said Roberto Lovato, a writer involved in the media campaign #DignidadLiteraria, which has encouraged debate over “American Dirt” and sought to highlight the works of other Latinx writers.

This is a discrimination suit, claiming that white journalists who post similar tweets are not told they can't write about protests.

From the letter: ... journalists are barred from writing on certain topics ...

... Johnson’s editors told her she could not pursue planned stories on jailed protesters or social-media efforts to raise bail funds because a May 31 tweet she sent about the different treatment black and white people get for doing property damage was an unacceptable public display of bias.

She's a journalist who was barred from writing on certain topics.

Sheck was cleared of discrimination, but spoke out against her employer for not taking a stand for free speech. There is definitely a discussion to be had whether using the n-word in its entirety is useful, necessary and acceptable. As a white person, I can't imagine staking my career on saying it in the lecture hall, but it's a big world.

From the letter: ... professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class ...

Sheck, who is white, was teaching a graduate course this spring on “radical questioning” in writing. She assigned students Baldwin’s 1962 essay The Creative Process, in which the black American writer and civil rights activist argued that Americans have “modified or suppressed and lied about all the darker forces in our history” and must commit to “a long look backward whence we came and an unflinching assessment of the record”. During the class, Sheck pointed to the 2016 documentary about Baldwin, I Am Not Your Negro, and asked her students to discuss why the title altered Baldwin’s original statement, in which he used the N-word instead of negro during an appearance on a talk show.

She is a literature professor who was investigated for quoting works of literature in class.

Hsu is a race biologist and why he was ever at MSU is an important question for that institution.

Hsu was hired to lead the university's research enterprise as the VP for Research and Graduate Studies under ex-MSU President Lou Anna K. Simon in 2012.

Hsu's prior experience in academic administration was serving as director of the University of Oregon’s Institute for Theoretical Science.

Prior to MSU, his research and primary work had been in applications of quantum field theory, particularly to problems in quantum chromodynamics, dark energy, black holes, entropy bounds and particle physics. He also co-founded Silicon Valley companies SafeWeb and Robot Genius Inc.

Hsu is a physicist and he is still at MSU; just not as VP for Research.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

110. What a disingenuous post.

The New York Times is probably the most prestigious paper in the country. Publishing an opinion piece written by a US Senator is not a firing offense.

Are the signatories condemning the fact that someone lost his job for an unpopular opinion he published, or for doing so without reading it before publishing and realizing the deeply newsworthy views within it?

The issue is that there were threats of physical violence:

Did the signatories have a problem with threats, which in the case of "American Dirt" were leveled against critics? If so, they should have mentioned it.

She's a journalist who was barred from writing on certain topics.

Most journalists are, through conflict of interest rules (many of which I have a problem with myself). Is that what the signatories are condemning?

She is a literature professor who was investigated for quoting works of literature in class.

Fair. It happens.

Hsu is a physicist and he is still at MSU; just not as VP for Research.

So he wasn't fired. So are they talking about another race biologist, orrrrr?

[Jim__]

118. Talk about disingenuous. Have you even read the letter?

The people who signed the letter condemned intolerance from all sides. And, yes, threats of violence because someone states a point of view easily fits under the umbrella of intolerance. From the letter:

... The forces of illiberalism are gaining strength throughout the world and have a powerful ally in Donald Trump, who represents a real threat to democracy. But resistance must not be allowed to harden into its own brand of dogma or coercion—which right-wing demagogues are already exploiting. The democratic inclusion we want can be achieved only if we speak out against the intolerant climate that has set in on all sides.

Did the signatories have a problem with threats, which in the case of "American Dirt" were leveled against critics? If so, they should have mentioned it.

See above. They have problems with intolerance from all sides - and they did mention it. And, yes, Myriam Gurba was threatened. But so was Jeanine Cummins, as noted in the Washinton Post article Threats against the author of ‘American Dirt’ threaten us all:

This is what we’ve come to.

The publisher of a novel titled “American Dirt,” by Jeanine Cummins, has canceled the remainder of a national book tour because Cummins and the bookstores set to host her have received threats of physical violence.

This is what we’ve come to. In the United States of America.

More than 30 years after the Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa demanding the assassination of Salman Rushdie for writing “The Satanic Verses,” here we are terrorizing one of our own novelists.

Further down the articles mentions the threats against Gurba - site rules won't allow me to copy that in. At least part of the point they're making in the letter is that our whole society is becoming intolerant. And that's what we have to resist.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

137. I have read the letter. It commits the common -- and disingenuous -- error of treating "all sides"

in a discussion about "tolerance" as if they all have equal power. It's not surprising; people who have institutional power (particularly in academia) are often overly concerned about that power being respected, and that challenges to that power follow certain unwritten rules about tone and content to be taken seriously. This letter acts like the greatest threat to human rights is people being mean *to those with institutional power.* It's a lazy take on a strawman argument.

I do find it fascinating how everyone, myself included, reads it differently.

[meadowlander]

91. Can we have an end to cancel cancel culture?

Freedom from facing the consequences for the stupid, rude or bigoted things you say or do is not "open debate".

I do think that statements and actions (especially very old ones) need to be looked at in the total context of a person's work and they should have an opportunity to repudiate things they've said and done in the past where they understand now that they were wrong.

We shouldn't jump to "fire them!" or "burn their books!" immediately in all cases but we shouldn't let people off the hook for wrong or harmful things they've done either.

By all means, let's have a discussion of why the things they said or did were wrong. But if their position at the end of that reasonable discussion is still "I didn't do anything wrong, you can't tell me what to do" the audience has a right to decide "actually this person is an idiot and they're not getting any more of my time or money" too.

[Owl]

100. +1

[VOX]

93. They lost me with their claim of "the intolerant climate that has set in on all sides."

These 100+ elites are still stuck in the antiquated liberal paradox: that a truly liberal society would allow right-wing ideologies to exist freely; to not do so would be illiberal.

Problem: “Conservatives” today aren’t like your kindly Republican grandparents. They aren’t even real conservatives— they’re far-right zealots. They want the whole package— total control, religious domination, judicial and legal domination, with concentrated, limitless power within the executive branch.

There must be intolerance for this overtly racist and xenophobic ideology. It’s not only holding us back, it’s acting like a cancer, eating away from within, destroying our ability to get along with one another and our very standing in the world as a democracy.

[musicblind]

112. You are correct about the right. They aren't the same, but we can't become them.

If we become them, we've lost already.

Fighting fire with fire burns the whole house down.

[backscatter712]

123. We have the right to protect ourselves. These scum want us dead.

[backscatter712]

115. Tolerance is not a moral precept. It is a peace treaty.

And I got that saying from here:

https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376

Those that violate the peace treaty by attacking our civil rights because we are different from them are no longer under the treaty's protection. All bets are off.

I feel absolutely no obligation to be tolerant to bigots. They're fucking scum.

[Steelrolled]

97. Sorry it has to fit into a single tweet

and use the word "literally" a few times.

[betsuni]

98. Political correctness evolved into cancel culture because of social media.

Everything's about feelings. Like or dislike. All or nothing.

[Humanist_Activist]

139. Those who complain about "Political Correctness" just want to say the n-word in "polite" company...

again without consequences.

Why do minorities have to justify their existence to the masses in the name of open debate?

[betsuni]

140. No. It was a term used by the Left first.

http://www.britannica.com/topic/political-correctness

[Humanist_Activist]

142. No, I'm talking about current context, just like how this letter is just a transphobe...

complaining about being called a transphobe and getting a bunch of elitist nobs to sign on to it, some of which apparently felt tricked and have retracted their signatures since.

[betsuni]

146. "elitists"

What does that mean?

[Humanist_Activist]

150. Generally people who never have to worry about juggling rent and groceries, who have access...

to magazines like Harper's and other platforms with audiences numbering in the hundreds of thousands to millions who follow them and listen to their words. You know, like that.

In a time when people are getting run over for practicing their free speech rights, but not being prominent enough to warrant so much as a thought in most of these people's heads, their primary concern is that they don't get criticized for being shitty people with shitty opinions. Cry me a fucking river.

[betsuni]

152. As if all intellectuals and smart people are rich.

[Humanist_Activist]

155. Uhm, do most of these people have to work 50+ hours a week to be able to make rent every month?

Yes or no?

You do the rofl emoji making your think you look smart with this response, when in reality, it just shows how removed you are from the living conditions of most Americans right now, at least the ones who can still work. Seriously, listen to the marginalized, to the poor, not to these self-aggrandizing assholes.

[betsuni]

156. LOL!

[Humanist_Activist]

158. Do you have something of substance to contribute? n/t

[betsuni]

159. Um, it's not about me.

[betsuni]

162. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL "ELITIST" LOL

[JI7]

106. Didn't Bill Maher already do this ? It's usually some random unknowns

saying something in the internet and the media picks it up as if it's some real major news story ?

[qwlauren35]

111. I *LOVE* Cancel Culture

And specifically, Cancelling racists.

I think it's wonderful, and I hope to see more of it.

[herding cats]

117. People are trying to catch us up on our divisions.

They want to exploit us and divide us again. As usual.

Personally, I'm not interested in being ripped apart from within. That's so 2016 to my jaundiced eye. I see where it landed me, and all of us back then. I do not feel like being played for a fool once again.

YMMV, but I'm in NO way playing this stupid circular firing squad game again.

Literally, these people are egos who need stroked. They're not our democracy we're fighting to maintain. They're not our hero's, they're a warped cult of personality trying to lead us.

Relax, take a deep breath, or 10, and fucking focus on what matters to you. Then vote for what YOU believe is right. We are the hero's we've been waiting for. We're here, we've got this.

Just don't be stupidity distracted again. Laser focus on what matters. If we can do that, we'll be fine.

[musicblind]

120. Cancel culture isn't about change or social justice.

Cancel culture is about the fleeting thrill of cathartic rage. You know what's more cathartic and thrilling than canceling someone? Changing someone because that's how you change the world.

Cancel culture makes cosmetic changes, but it does nothing to treat the underlying rot. It's like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound. Sure, it covers the wound, but the problem goes much deeper.

If you intimidate someone into seeing things your way, they will explode the moment you turn your back. If you convince someone to see things your way, they will work for your ideals long after you're gone.

People should research the psychology behind cancel culture:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/experimentations/202006/the-psychology-cancel-culture

People should also research how you change minds and influence people.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evidence-based-living/201811/proven-ways-change-someone-s-mind

The core idea behind cancel culture and online shaming is at direct odds with proven strategies to change someone's mind.

If you want real change, you have to change people's minds. It may not be as immediately gratifying as canceling some famous person on social media, but it will reap far greater rewards.

I'll end this post by quoting President Obama:

This idea of purity and you’re never compromised and you’re always politically ‘woke’ and all that stuff. You should get over that quickly. The world is messy; there are ambiguities. People who do really good stuff have flaws. People who you are fighting may love their kids, and share certain things with you.

I do get a sense sometimes now among certain young people, and this is accelerated by social media, there is this sense sometimes of: The way of me making change is to be as judgmental as possible about other people, and that’s enough.

Like, if I tweet or hashtag about how you didn’t do something right or used the wrong verb, then I can sit back and feel pretty good about myself, cause, ‘Man, you see how woke I was, I called you out.’

That’s not activism. That’s not bringing about change. If all you’re doing is casting stones, you’re probably not going to get that far.

-- Barack Obama [The greatest President of my lifetime.]

I'm sure I'll get a lot of hate for writing this, but to quote another great man: Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

[cabot]

122. +1

Excellent post. Thanks!

[JI7]

125. You can't change everyone's mind . It just turns into those who are victimized having to be the ones

to do the hard work while the bigots end up being viewed as the victims who other people failed to convince.

I do agree there is a point where cancel culture becomes silly.

But you also need to accept that some people are just total trash and you don't waste them on trying to change them for the better.

[Music Man]

129. Excellent post.

You won't get flack from me.

There are plenty of movable people who can be educated, not annihilated. Social media has become a performative place where people can post things to make themselves feel good and appear as part of the right group but without doing any really hard work to change the world for the better.

Here in Kentucky, there is an author named Wendell Berry who is a bit of a local legend and popular among progressives. Not a Democrat by any means, but he's been anti-war, anti-death penalty, environmentalist, was particularly critical of the Bush administration. Well anyway, he is trying to stop the removal of a mural on the University of Kentucky's campus that portrays (and seems to glorify) slavery, I believe because he is related somehow to the artist and is concerned that the work is going to be destroyed. I now have some acquaintances who have proclaimed that they are DONE with Wendell Berry.

I think it's silly, short-sighted, and lazy.

[betsuni]

130. +1

[Owl]

134. Excellent post. Thank you.

[gulliver]

128. There's that one deal about casting the first stone that comes to mind.

You have to be able to tolerate other people believing things you don't like. People who are intolerant are annoying as hell.

[BannonsLiver]

131. Wow, Chomsky? That's going to burst some people's bubbles.

[Behind the Aegis]

181. As you can see, the bus is already backing up over him.

No surprises there.

[Dr. Strange]

185. He's a transphobe.

Finding out that he and Atwood are alt-right Nazis has been very disillusioning.

[Beringia]

141. Methinks thou doth protest too much Steinem and Chomsky

They probably hold dear many elitist strongholds from the past, love and nostalgia for things that have not hurt them personally.

[lapucelle]

144. Zephyr Teachout signed the letter. How does she fit in? N/T

[Beringia]

151. She comes from a white elitist family, why wouldn't that be a good fit

[lapucelle]

154. I had no idea she is from an elitist family.

It looks like I'm not the only one.

https://hudsonvalleyone.com/2018/09/04/alexandra-ocasio-cortez-zephyr-teachout-to-rally-at-suny-new-paltz/

[Humanist_Activist]

157. First paragraph of Early life section of her Wiki page,

Teachout was born in Seattle, Washington, the second of five children, to Peter Teachout, a constitutional law professor at Vermont Law School, and Mary Miles Teachout, who serves as a trial level judge in Vermont.[8] Her father served in the United States Army as a lieutenant during the Vietnam War and has a law degree from Harvard Law School.[9] At the time of her birth, the family was living in Seattle, where her father was a professor at the University of Washington.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zephyr_Teachout

Trying to figure out how this isn't elitist. I mean, my dad was a draftsman and my mom worked various retail jobs while I was growing up and we had to sublet a few times just to not be evicted. I'm sure our experiences are totally relatable.

[lapucelle]

163. That doesn't make her family "elitist".

adjective: elitist
relating to or supporting the view that a society or system should be led by an elite.

noun: elitist; plural noun: elitists
a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite.

Definition of elitist
1 : one who is an adherent of elitism : one whose attitudes and beliefs are biased in favor of a socially elite class of people

2: giving special treatment and advantages to wealthy and powerful people

3 : regarding other people as inferior because they lack power, wealth, or status

[Beringia]

160. Just because she is a progressive and allies with Cortez, doesn't mean she has not

benefited from her elite family and education. I highly doubt she rocked the boat much growing up. She learned and benefited, and then entered the arena as a progressive.



Zephyr Rain Teachout is an American attorney, author, and Associate Professor of Law at Fordham University.

Teachout was born in Seattle, Washington, the second of five children, to Peter Teachout, a constitutional law professor at Vermont Law School, and Mary Miles Teachout, who serves as a trial level judge in Vermont. Her father served in the United States Army as a lieutenant during the Vietnam War and has a law degree from Harvard Law School.[9] At the time of her birth, the family was living in Seattle, where her father was a professor at the University of Washington.

Raised on a farm outside Norwich, Vermont, Teachout attended Hanover High School in Hanover, New Hampshire, where she was a champion cross-country runner and did some acting.

In 1993, Teachout received a B.A. degree from Yale University, where she also did some acting. In 1999, she earned two simultaneous degrees from Duke University: a J.D. degree, summa cum laude, and an M.A. degree in political science. She was also Editor-in-Chief of the Duke Law Journal.

[Beringia]

165. Also I am grappling with this issue myself recently

My grandfather got relatively wealthy from owning a farm in Illinois beginning in the 1930s or so. That land used to belong to the Illiniwi Indians, who were killed off and displaced and eventually relocated, what was left of them, to Oklahoma. I am doing some research on the land, how it was originally swamp land, and then white people came in and drained it and made it useable as farmland, the richest in the country. I know my uncle would turn over in his grave to know I am working on this topic. He had his collection of Indian arrowheads and that was as far as he took his concern about the Indians who used to live on that land.

[lapucelle]

166. How is her family "elitist"?

adjective: elitist
relating to or supporting the view that a society or system should be led by an elite.

noun: elitist; plural noun: elitists
a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite.

Definition of elitist
1 : one who is an adherent of elitism : one whose attitudes and beliefs are biased in favor of a socially elite class of people

2: giving special treatment and advantages to wealthy and powerful people

3 : regarding other people as inferior because they lack power, wealth, or status

[Beringia]

167. I use the definition of someone who has professors as parents

and who goes to the top schools for their education. By default, they benefited from an elitist culture. They didn't do anything morally wrong themselves, but they benefited from the elitist institutions. You think her ego isn't buoyed by her rich education? And that she has sentimental ties to her past? It is only human.

[gollygee]

168. It isn't like it was decided upon by committee

Random people felt like there were no consequences to people being hateful and started calling people out on it. You can't just stop a bunch of random people online from calling people out for things.

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

172. "Cancel culture?" WHY does every frickin thing have to be so

frickin polarized and contentious?

You would expect intellectuals and such to be more nuanced in their thinking. All liberals/progressives for that matter -although that may be expecting too much.

Who invented the term "cancel culture?" Its a logical fallacy to create a straw man, ie a distorted or extreme version of a view, and attack that instead.

[Sympthsical]

174. Cancel culture is just a mob in internet form

For some reason, people think authoritarianism is solely reserved for the Right. Not so much, not so much. There are plenty of ideologues on our side who want to silence and minimize any opinion that doesn't fit their narrow views of "acceptable."

Anti free speech folk are all over Berkeley, which I think is just the most fantastic irony. They've learned nothing.

And of course, this mob is, as ever, a bunch of comfortable people, sitting at home on their computers, thinking that just typing all day is somehow activism (see: slacktivist).

It's an entire toxic culture spawned out of social media. There are a lot of people on the Left who do not want free speech. They want control and conformity. They have that in common with their right-wing counterparts.

If people don't want to buy an author's book, don't. Don't watch that actor's film. Don't buy that singer's music. That's your right.

It's when people start demanding firings, the loss of livelihoods, the destruction of lives that I draw the line. Commencement speakers now can only express narrow bands of thought, lest bored students get outraged (and why they're being taught they have to be outraged by every little thing is beyond me. Safe rooms when conservative speakers come. Jesus H. What are we teaching there? Not how to handle a challenging world, I tell you that).

There's a kind of bloodlust that seeped in along the way. It is not cute. It is not attractive. It is fascist. And our side is going to have a reckoning sooner or later. I hold no truck with authoritarians. The ones on my side may vote the same as I do, but we are not the same. I oppose them and am disgusted with them with every fiber of my being.

They are not pro-democracy. Not even a little bit.

[SKKY]

175. There's not much I disagree with in that letter...

...Shoot me. I said what I said.

[Polybius]

177. What's cancel culture?

I've heard of counter culture but cancel culture?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

188. Severely depressing

To see this thread become in part a debate about Trans people that JKR would certainly be proud of.

[treestar]

190. Salman Rushdie signed it

An early example.

[betsuni]

192. Good point.

[lapucelle]

194. Nothing says "canceled" like a de facto contract on your life. N/T

[melman]

202. cancel culture

Link to tweet

[gulliver]

207. Cancel the cancellations

Relationships have to be allowed to survive mistakes and disagreements. We can disagree with others and be hurt by them sometimes. The best you can hope for is someone who stands with you, cares how you feel, etc., most of the time. Expect more, and you're basically just declaring yourself allergic to real life.