Judge in Roger Stone's case would like to see Trump's commutation order

[fleur-de-lisa]

Zoe Tillman @ZoeTillman (Buzz Feed)

The judge in Roger Stone's case would like to see Trump's commutation order — she wants clarification about whether it only keeps him out of prison, or if it affects the terms of supervised release that she imposed at sentencing as well.

10:35 AM · Jul 13, 2020

Link to tweet

Joyce Alene (U of Alabama Law Professor|, MSNBC Contributor, Obama US Atty in B'ham)

I was wondering about this this morning. Theoretically, even with commutation, if Stone violates the terms of his supervised release, the judge could be able to consider revoking it & return him to custody. An interesting possible implication of this being commutation, not pardon

Link to tweet

[fleur-de-lisa]

1. What are the chances that there isn't one?

[Baitball Blogger]

3. The judge is smart.

Trump does very little officially on paper, outside of a tweet.

Also, it's time to challenge everything that Republicans do.

[SoonerPride]

4. No paperwork has been filed thusfar.

[BlueIdaho]

47. With no order in place shouldn't he be imprisoned Tomorrow? nt.

[Me.]

2. Hmmmmm

this could get interesting

[dmr]

38. I agree, especially knowing Stone can't behave himself.

He'd likely land himself in prison yet. Fpr me, that would be an exciting turn of events, lol. I can't wait!

[Me.]

41. Double Yep

back at you...

[greenjar_01]

5. Gooooood!

[Budi]

6. She requests the order because There Is None.

I've seen legal minds reporting that the commutation was done without following protcol.

They are asking "where's the order?" They could not find any official docs on this as they searched, from the day Stone's sentence commutation was announced.

The order should have been filed 1st. And it wasn't.

Judge Amy Berman Jackson ~ 👍

[gratuitous]

7. Plenty of time for Barr to concoct one if it doesn't exist

It was interesting to me that Trump only commuted Stone's sentence, and didn't pardon him. If Stone had been pardoned, he could have been called to testify and not had a Fifth Amendment argument for keeping his yap shut. Merely commuting his sentence means that Stone can still take the Fifth for any crimes he might have committed but not convicted for.

[Nevilledog]

13. I remember reading Stone asked, specifically, for a commutation.

Can't find where I read it and I'm only at a half cup of coffee level of awareness.

[leftieNanner]

18. I think that's what he said in the Howard Fineman interview

He specifically asked for commutation.

Let's hope that turns out to be a mistake.

[Nevilledog]

19. I think you're right.

I recall it being referred to as the "pre-commutation interview"

trump version of an exit-interview.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. I think she can on the day he is due to report, put out an arrest warrant in absence of paperwork

I think Stone is due on Wednesday.

[Nevilledog]

42. I like this.

[lastlib]

43. He would be due tomorrow.

7/14 was his report date.

If Judge berman doesn't have it in her hands by 8am tomorrow morning, Stone is gonna be in shit he hasn't been in before.

Drumpfski was too busy golfing this weekend to do his paperwork. Or prevent viruses from spreading any further.

[Buckeyeblue]

8. So that means he goes to jail tomorrow until the proper paperwork is filed

That would be like Trump. Try to bullshit his way through the process without any official paperwork.

Maybe Barr is slow-walking this trying to change Trump's mind? That would be hilarious.

[Budi]

17. Ya think today Barr's doing a quickie order with an 'adjusted' date?

They flip the bird to the rule of law, & provide a half-assed smug answer later if requested just to quiet the law abiders.

[greenjar_01]

29. The reasoning given in the press release included COVID related safety concerns

That should not buy him out of 24 months supervised release (i.e., probation) or the $20,000 fine.

Judge is 100% correct to demand the nature and details of the clemency order.

[Budi]

44. "COVID related safety concerns". Their go-to excuse.

Except for kids ordered back to school .
130,000+ deaths & counting more by the day.
Economy in a tailspin.
No aid in sight.

Covid's ok for the innocents, but not for Flynn the felon & mobster of the Trump cabal.
Then it conveniently becomes a usable excuse.

[greenjar_01]

46. yes, it's total bullshit, to be sure

[UTUSN]

9. K&R

[duforsure]

10. They should get Stone and lock him up unless they provide it at once.

[fleur-de-lisa]

11. That would make my day!

[malaise]

12. K & R

This is important

[ScratchCat]

14. There isn't one

Trump just got checked! The moron doesn't understand there are official channels for which these things must go though; he can't just decree something on Twitter.

Stone goes to jail tomorrow if they can't draw up a legal order fast. Now watch him use this as an excuse to pardon him(another moronic move since Stone could no longer plead the 5th in relation to Trump's crimes)

[not_the_one]

15. RUN Barr Barr, RUN

EARN those big bucks the con is paying you to keep him out of jail.

[Ninga]

16. Confusing. Does this mean if there is no commutation order that based on Judge Berman's question

This gives the administration another bite at the Apple in writing to commutation and specifically addressing the judges question or does this mean they could go straight to a pardon?

[greenjar_01]

20. He can pardon or commute at will, but you have to actually file paperwork. You don't wave a wand

or tweet.

If there is not an official commutation order filed, Stone is required to present himself for custody tomorrow at the appointed time and Judge Berman Jackson can file a federal arrest warrant if he doesn't show up.

This isn't a fucking Twitter game. It's a duly passed sentence in a federal criminal matter.

[WyattKansas]

21. Donald Dumbass will send her a photocopy of a Monopoly 'Get Out of Jail Free' card.

With his bigly Sharpie signature on it.

[Mme. Defarge]

31. Brilliant!

[SayItLoud]

22. I wonder what ManaFart is thinking these days.

I'm surprised the media hasn't staked him out like they did Cohen. The guys a crook and grifter and they don't change. Always trying to game the system. I'll bet he is gaming it.

[cbdo2007]

23. What is the reason Trump choose commutation rather than Pardon in the first place??

[Nevilledog]

26. With a commutation Stone can still assert the fifth amendment.

With a pardon he could be compelled to testify about the crimes he was convicted of.

[Nasruddin]

36. Possibly

My understanding (limited as it is) is that it's very hard to prevent a witness from invoking the 5th successfully.
But the situation could arise, so commutation closes that off.
Commutation might be less politically risky before the election, and might be less likely to look like obstruction (oh the poor old man's risk of COVID infection in prison).
What's the diff to Stone? What problems does he have that a pardon would solve? He's outta prison, all that matters. He can work with whomever he wants, considering the work he does.

You can pardon safely on 04 Nov 2020, or early morning 20 Jan 2021. Bank on it.

[Nevilledog]

37. He could only invoke the fifth about testimony outside the boundry of the pardon.

Stone would proudly do his time on a contempt charge. He is a martyr, dontchaknow.

[Alex4Martinez]

27. Because Putin or Stone ordered him to, what their reasons are I have no idea.

Trump doesn't call the shots.

[George II]

25. Yes, dotard commuted his prison sentence, not his supervised release "sentence"....

....which he's technically serving.

He couldn't even get that straight!

[cayugafalls]

28. So can they now just draft an executive order that covers all the bases, sign and hand it over?

Seems like they showed their hand and if there wasn't an order, now they can form one to specifically address the issues.

Or am I missing something?

[greenjar_01]

30. How they justify clemency for the supervised release (probation) and $20,000 fine is a mystery

The commutation is justified on COVID grounds in part. How does his supposed safety concerns get him out of probation and fine? I mean, they can just wipe the whole slate clean for him, but it definitely looks even hinkier.

[cayugafalls]

32. Thank you for that information!

Considering that trump tweeted Chuck Woolery as proof that the virus is no big deal, I don't think he has any problem with looking a little hinky.

We are talking about a criminally negligent pResident after all.

[greenjar_01]

34. That's true, of course

But every little bit of hinkiness enables further attacks that appeal to moderates. I want him to have to explain in writing why he's granting clemency from probation for a federal felon, if he is.

[louzke9]

33. WELL, CONSIDERING...

How the White House FUBAR's everything, of course, the Judge wants to see the commutation order.

[bucolic_frolic]

35. Stone's commutation is not going down well

Link to tweet

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/traditional-interpretation-pardon-power-wrong/614083/?

[crickets]

49. Excellent Atlantic article; thanks for that.

Quoting a relevant chunk:

The power to grant “pardons and reprieves” includes the power to commute, or reduce, sentences after convictions. But this power is constrained by a limit: “except in cases of impeachment.” Traditionally, this exception has been read to mean only that a president cannot use the pardon and reprieve power to prevent or undo an impeachment by the House or an impeachment conviction by the Senate. By this interpretation, only impeachment charges themselves are precluded from presidential pardons. (According to the Constitution, the vice president and “all civil Officers of the United States” are subject to impeachment, which means, for example, that a president cannot pardon a federal judge’s impeachment.)

But there is a strong argument, rooted in the Constitution’s text, history, values, and structure, that in addition to banning the prevention or undoing of an impeachment, this phrase also bans a president from using the pardon and reprieve power to commute the sentences of people directly associated with any impeachment charges against him. This argument is not a partisan one. Whatever rule is applied today would necessarily apply to future presidents, Democrats as well as Republicans.

The impeachment charges against President Trump focused mainly on his alleged withholding of foreign aid from Ukraine to pressure the Ukrainian president into digging up dirt on Hunter Biden that could support Trump’s reelection campaign, and on his refusal to cooperate with the congressional investigation of this matter. But the articles of impeachment also explicitly invoke his “previous invitations of foreign interference in United States elections” and “previous efforts to undermine United States Government investigations into foreign interference in United States elections.” According to our interpretation of the pardon clause, that would mean he can’t use the pardon and reprieve power to commute the sentences of those charged with crimes related to Russian interference in the 2016 campaign—including Stone, who was convicted of lying to Congress and obstructing its investigation into Russian election interference. This obstruction impeded the ability of Congress to gather information that could have been vital to the impeachment inquiry, benefiting Trump.

Our interpretation stems, in part, from the fact that the Constitution’s Framers were deeply concerned about presidents abusing power to protect co-conspirators. As just one example, regarding treason, the Virginia delegate Edmund Randolph voiced a concern at the Constitutional Convention that “the prerogative of pardon in these cases was too great a trust. The President may himself be guilty. The Traytors may be his own instruments.”

Interesting. Emphasis mine.

[mozan]

39. Our Good Judges

This is the second time a judge has said NO to trump. First the Flynn case and now this with stone.
The real law and order well win in the end because they are so bad at what they do.

[Hekate]

40. Judge Amy Berman Jackson is a bulldog & she's not letting go. A hero for this dark age. nt

[Desert_Leslie]

45. Pardon Admission of Guilt

Yep, if you accept a pardon, it's an admission of guilt on your part. This besides it nullifies your right to plead the Fifth.

I know this because I live the next town over from Sheriff Arpaio, convicted Arizona felon pardoned by the Orange Stain.

Local news media interviewed him and mentioned this to him. He looked absolutely startled. Surprise!!!

[Proud Liberal Dem]

48. Good for her

in asking to the see the fine print. I think that we got so caught up in the fog of outrage over it that even we didn't even think to see if this was real or not, totally disregarding how much of an attention-seeking lunatic and con artist Trump is. Granted, they'll probably produce something in writing NOW that purports to address the issue but it is good that the Judge is calling him on the mat about Stone.

[chriscan64]

50. He can't even commit crimes right

I am certain that it never occurred to Trump that there would have to be an official document. He thinks his blitherings become the law of the land by their very utterance. Yeah, they will slap one together in time, but he risked not having what he wanted out of sheer ignorance.