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Siwsan

(26,259 posts)
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 09:57 AM Jul 2020

I was right to worry about my anti-vax nephew, during the time of Covid-19

Sometimes I wish I could turn off the worry switch, in my brain.

Yesterday he informed me that pretty much everyone in the country has already been infected and gotten over it. Umm, well, NO! And, since they don't know how long of an immunity one might possibly have, after symptomatic or asymptomatic infection, our guard can not be let down. I reminded him about his uncle's experience with Covid. He can attest that it's not worth the risk to think you can't or won't get it. He found need to end the conversation, shortly afterwards.

Then his wife shared a video showing an 'undercover nurse' claiming she has proof that Covid-19 is a criminal hoax. I disputed this notion. She told me to watch the video and then we can talk. I told her I listen to actual scientists and medical specialists like Dr. Fauci so I'm not wasting my time on such nonsense. She said, well, let's talk after you watch the video.

I worry about them, but I worry more about their partially vaccinated 4 year old daughter. She went through the first round of vaccinations before they 'read something on the internet' and decided that going any further would permanently damage her. So now she goes to some sort of chiropractor. Don't ask......

His sister is now trying to start a family. I have no worries about her.

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I was right to worry about my anti-vax nephew, during the time of Covid-19 (Original Post) Siwsan Jul 2020 OP
Can you agree to watch the movie in exchange 33taw Jul 2020 #1
TALK TO THEM ANYWAY !! They sound like text book "empties" meaning they don't have a well rounded uponit7771 Jul 2020 #2
We've tried and tried and TRIED for 4 years, now. It's like talking to a brick wall. Siwsan Jul 2020 #4
oh, dang it ... so sorry about that uponit7771 Jul 2020 #9
Some people can't be helped. LiberalFighter Jul 2020 #13
Only one thing seems to work w/ these people, that eventually no one pays attention to them ... SWBTATTReg Jul 2020 #16
Lots of magical thinking on their part. PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2020 #17
I have a compulsive need to 'mother' them, and I need to get past that. Siwsan Jul 2020 #19
Logic and coherence utterly escape them-- dawg day Jul 2020 #3
There's a serious lack of responsibility and logic to most of their thinking Siwsan Jul 2020 #5
Yes it is for the best. LiberalFighter Jul 2020 #14
Critical thinking is simply not taught in schools. PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2020 #18
A chiropractor said he could cure my dads epilepsy. gibraltar72 Jul 2020 #6
There are some people you can do nothing for. It is sad, but if you have been trying for years, Squinch Jul 2020 #7
Sadly, that's what I've come to accept Siwsan Jul 2020 #8
I have a similar relationship to my nieces, barring the cancer diagnosis. I can't imagine Squinch Jul 2020 #10
"I love you, but I just don't like being Ilsa Jul 2020 #11
If it's a video where the nurse starts off saying people coming in with breathing issues were merely LizBeth Jul 2020 #12
Wow. Put on a ventilator for a panic attack. PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2020 #21
Having experienced them to a point going to hospital thinking I was having an heart attack, LizBeth Jul 2020 #22
When logic and evidence are denied and rejected and ignored, go nuclear sanatanadharma Jul 2020 #15
Getting thru to those who "don't believe" in immunizations is most... 3catwoman3 Jul 2020 #20
Have her watch two videos (debunking the "undercover nurse" video) JHB Jul 2020 #23

33taw

(2,439 posts)
1. Can you agree to watch the movie in exchange
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 10:16 AM
Jul 2020

for him to volunteer at a nearby hospital with a Covid unit?

uponit7771

(90,335 posts)
2. TALK TO THEM ANYWAY !! They sound like text book "empties" meaning they don't have a well rounded
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 10:28 AM
Jul 2020

... well perspective of issues and when someone presents them with one they might listen.

Its worth your time, it's hard to get an ear of someone who's an empty unless they respect you

Siwsan

(26,259 posts)
4. We've tried and tried and TRIED for 4 years, now. It's like talking to a brick wall.
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 10:54 AM
Jul 2020

He was a little 'conspiracy theory' minded, already, but he really spiraled when his mother's cancer flared up, again. He started researching all kinds of alternate treatments and sending them to her, but she did what her physician's recommended. The truth of the matter is, either way of dealing with it would have ended up with her death because the cancer came back fast, and spread like a wild fire. He has convinced himself that had she listened to him, she'd still be alive today. After she died, he got 100 times worse and now he's carrying on this belief with his daughter.

He might love us, but there's not a lot of respect. He and his wife are, well, radical vegans who don't hold back on shaming the rest of the family for not following their example. They wouldn't even trust me to babysit their child, when they came for a visit, despite me taking care of him when he was a baby, without doing any damage. Their daughter has never spent any time away from her parents (including sleeping in the same bed for the first 3 1/2 years of her life) which I think is very, very damaging. They seem to think their lifestyle will protect them from every illness. When his wife had appendicitis, she was SHOCKED because their diet should be preventing ALL physical maladies. And I've had to bail them out of financial problems more often than I should have done, because of their 'pristine eating' lifestyle. They pay more for one pepper than I do for a whole bag of potatoes.

His sister has vowed to never go and visit them, again, unless she has someone with her because he criticized and shamed just about every thing she does. At one time I had thought about moving down to be closer to them, especially after their daughter was born. After spending a few long weekends with them, I realized that would be the biggest mistake of my life, and I'm made some whoppers.

It's really very heartbreaking. And, sorry I got carried away. Sometimes I just need to VENT.

LiberalFighter

(50,888 posts)
13. Some people can't be helped.
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 12:19 PM
Jul 2020

Keep in mind that you can't save everyone. Heartbreaking but it is life.

SWBTATTReg

(22,112 posts)
16. Only one thing seems to work w/ these people, that eventually no one pays attention to them ...
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 12:26 PM
Jul 2020

or any of their nonsense, and yes, sure, some kids may get caught up in the whole mess.

However, in my experiences w/ my nephews and nieces, w/ their former dad (he went on to another marriage and wasn't very nice to his kids), they have prevailed, with strength and wisdom, to pull themselves up and out of such a negative situation, and make a good life for themselves. Mine did, thank goodness. All good kids.

You just have to hope that the kids mature to the point where they're old enough to make their own judgments (and perhaps make better ones than their parents).

People don't deserved to be 'shamed' either for any of their beliefs too, don't we all have individual freedoms, each and every one of us? Isn't each and everyone of us, special and unique, and thus deserve respect just as much as everybody else? I despise people who mock others just because they don't share the same beliefs as they do. Grow up.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,845 posts)
17. Lots of magical thinking on their part.
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 12:31 PM
Jul 2020

You see it everywhere that eating some one particular thing, or not eating certain other things will magically protect you from stuff.

That's essentially not true. Well, okay, if you have a life-threatening peanut or shellfish allergy, you absolutely should not eat those things. Same with any other food sensitivities.

But to think eating "right" or any other lifestyle choices will protect you from every illness simply shows you don't know much about the germ theory of disease or how things in your body can go wrong more or less randomly, resulting in things like appendicitis.

However, you should absolutely not bail them out of any more financial problems. If they prefer to buy expensive food rather than paying the electric bill, that's their choice. You are not responsible for it, and they'll never figure out what their priorities should be if you continue to aid them financially.

Siwsan

(26,259 posts)
19. I have a compulsive need to 'mother' them, and I need to get past that.
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 02:29 PM
Jul 2020

After 5 years I'm still dealing with the grief of losing my only sister - and survival guilt that she was a wife and mother, and didn't live long enough to be at her daughter's wedding, or to hold her first grandchild, but I'm the family 'romantic washout' and experienced both. It's rough. My sister was Mom's favorite. I was about #3 on that list. I'm glad Mom was too far gone with Alzheimer's to be told about my sister's death. Mom died just 3 weeks, later.

But, yes, it is time to stop enabling and force them to be responsible. It's just also very hard.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
3. Logic and coherence utterly escape them--
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 10:37 AM
Jul 2020

They seem to be obsessed with "Evidence" (the "undercover nurse&quot , but any evidence will do.

And they doesn't get the disconnect between their two beliefs:
"It's a criminal hoax" and "Everyone's got it."

The question is always, "Why?" Why would someone devise this hoax? Why would every hospital and doctor and nurse choose to be in on it? Was that their experience with their own doctors, that they willingly participated in hoaxes?
And if alternately-- and it is ALTERNATELY... both beliefs can't be true-- everyone in the country has already had it, then it's NOT a hoax, is it? So who are these people-- the real criminals-- who are making videos pretending to be nurses and claiming it's a hoax? Why would they do that? And if everyone has already been exposed and gotten it, why do so many new people get sick every day? Why do a thousand people die each day of it, if it's no big deal? That's more people than die of car accidents every day, more people than die of cancer or opioid overdose every day. Do they think that these people aren't actually dying, or do they think it's not a big deal if a thousand people die every day?

These antivaxxers (and now pandemic deniers) are such a weird mix of a craving for certainty and a hatred of actual experts. They keep pivoting between the two poles (need for certainty and hatred of knowledge). I don't mean to be insulting, but they're like bullheaded stupidity trying to appear smart with their charts and Youtube videos. Their arguments always miss a lot of the planks of logic and rational inquiry, but most of all, they can never answer "why" with any connection to good common sense.

They miss the idea that real intelligence includes skepticism and curiosity, which they sort of have, but also methodology and systems, and constant experimentation and considering the counter arguments, and requires the willingness to make mistakes and acknowledge that they are mistakes and learn from them. And common sense is a big part of it, training yourself to consider what's WRONG with your argument, not just what's right, and also what else could explain this phenomenon (that everyone who "supposedly" died of Covid ate eggs within two weeks of the death doesn't mean eggs kill).

"Critical thinking" ought to be a course that gets started in grade school, about the time they start teaching keyboarding skills, and repeated every year with a different age-appropriate focus (like "media literacy" and "legal reasoning" and "image analysis" and "scientific method" and other aspects of critical thinking) all the way through graduate school.


Siwsan

(26,259 posts)
5. There's a serious lack of responsibility and logic to most of their thinking
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 10:56 AM
Jul 2020

I used to feel bad that they live so far away. Now I'm thinking it might be for the best.

LiberalFighter

(50,888 posts)
14. Yes it is for the best.
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 12:22 PM
Jul 2020

I have a fellow retiree that does a lot for her family. On the nephew side. She spends a lot of time with them and her mother. The nephew with the stories I hear looks like a lost cause. She has been making some good choices but it is difficult and they live somewhat close.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,845 posts)
18. Critical thinking is simply not taught in schools.
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 12:33 PM
Jul 2020

One reason is that if kids actually learned critical thinking, they'd be a lot more inclined to challenge teachers about stuff, and teachers, especially the biased or ignorant ones, would not be very happy about that.

I will lay a lot of the blame at the feet of those who have essentially banned the teaching of evolution in schools.

gibraltar72

(7,503 posts)
6. A chiropractor said he could cure my dads epilepsy.
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 10:59 AM
Jul 2020

He had it since a child and was teased and traumatized by it. He also quit taking his meds. because of what his dentist told him. In his mind one Dr. was as good as another. Neither of those things worked out well.

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
7. There are some people you can do nothing for. It is sad, but if you have been trying for years,
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 11:30 AM
Jul 2020

that means they have just dug their heels in deeper with every assault on their rationality.

They will do what they will do.

Siwsan

(26,259 posts)
8. Sadly, that's what I've come to accept
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 11:43 AM
Jul 2020

I've always been very, very, maybe unusually close to my niece and nephews because my sister and I were very close. I held them right after they were born. I saw them every week and would drop anything I was doing for the chance to babysit them. I made all of their birthday cakes, made them all crochet Easter Baskets made sure their favorite foods were on the table, when I cooked for them. I don't have children of my own, and I couldn't have loved them more. They were all still young when their mother was diagnosed with cancer for the first time, and I did everything I could to help keep their lives as normal as possible.

I'm still close to all three kids, but the relationship with his brother and sister has never changed. Unfortunately, with him, it has.

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
10. I have a similar relationship to my nieces, barring the cancer diagnosis. I can't imagine
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 12:03 PM
Jul 2020

how hard it is to see one go down this path. Hang in there.

Ilsa

(61,694 posts)
11. "I love you, but I just don't like being
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 12:13 PM
Jul 2020

around you any more. You are too judgmental."

I've had to use that message on a family member before.

LizBeth

(9,952 posts)
12. If it's a video where the nurse starts off saying people coming in with breathing issues were merely
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 12:17 PM
Jul 2020

having panic attacks being admitted and put on ventilators for panic attacks, I called bullshit 5 minutes into that video that was suggested I "just watch" and then get back to my poster. What nurse would suggested all these doctor and nurses are ventilating people for panic attacks. The absurdity. I couldn't watch much further.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,845 posts)
21. Wow. Put on a ventilator for a panic attack.
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 05:13 PM
Jul 2020

I will say that I don't know much about panic attacks, never having had one myself, but somehow I am willing to bet that trained medical personal can tell the difference between one and something that really does need a ventilator.

Which makes me suspect the "nurse" isn't a nurse at all. Just someone who has decided to call herself one.

LizBeth

(9,952 posts)
22. Having experienced them to a point going to hospital thinking I was having an heart attack,
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 05:16 PM
Jul 2020

I hadn't has one for a couple decades and it fooled me, I KNOW medical would see panic attack and not put on ventilator, hence turning it off at that point. It was one time I was going to really watch one of these, lol. I mostly ignore.

sanatanadharma

(3,699 posts)
15. When logic and evidence are denied and rejected and ignored, go nuclear
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 12:22 PM
Jul 2020

Time to go straight to arguments of ethics and morality because that is where the heart of the problem lies.

All people equally deserving of respect but all personalities are not.
One's personality is projection of one's self-identity.Actions are personality unleashed.

People believe themselves to be moral and sensible. Many are not.
We people can be judged using any yardstick of ethics, be it theology or humanism.

If talking to a Christian or other religion-ist, accept their theology (provisionally) and "state" directly that they are wrong, immoral, unethical and just plain "bad" personalities based on their own God's morality.
Be kind, pointing out that they have been mislead by 2000 years of inbred theology.
They just don't measure up.

Selfishness is ungodly, almost by definition. Selfishness is slighting one or more, family, friends, lovers, neighbors, humanity and personal responsibility.
Selfishness is coveting, the desire to have (me, my, mine).
It is the desire to have and get without responsibility for results.

It is time to tell people, "You are just dumb and immoral."
Otherwise basically ignore them as worth no more effort.
Take compassion upon your self and socially distance; take compassion on others by masking them off.

If it takes vast conspiracies to prove one's 'rightness', one is not right.

3catwoman3

(23,973 posts)
20. Getting thru to those who "don't believe" in immunizations is most...
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 05:12 PM
Jul 2020

...often an exercise in futility. Just this past Friday, I had to inform one of our most adamant anti-vaxxers of a policy change in the 11-practice consortium of which my office is a part. The physician owners of the consortium, about a year ago, decided that parents who do not vaccinate because they don’t believe in it/agree with it need to find a different practice that is in line with their beliefs. This particular parent has 3 children. The oldest got all the usual immunizations thru age 5. The middle child got the 4 year old DTaP and polio, but no MMR or chicken pox age 5. Youngest child has had none. For the school paperwork, the stated reason for not immunizing is “our religion,” but that is never what is said during in-person discussions. I think she says this because she knows she can get her way by claiming this. I think she just doen’t want too.

The kids have been seen by almost everyone in the practice, and numerous discussions are documented in which the parent says one or another version of, “Not today. We’ll come back for them later, “ which never happens. When I explained the policy, the parent acted as if she had never been told about this before, even though there is a chart entry in the youngest child’s chart from just a year ago, in all capital letters, explaining this unambiguously.

There has been a major switch in the immunization questions expectant parents ask during their “meet the pediatrician” visits.” For years, the “Do you accept families who do not immunize,” question came from people who did not want to and wanted to know if they could come to us anyway. We used to say yes. Now, the same question comes from parents who do not want their young infant in the waiting room with unimmunized kids, especially if the baby is too young to have started the shots.

JHB

(37,158 posts)
23. Have her watch two videos (debunking the "undercover nurse" video)
Sun Jul 26, 2020, 05:30 PM
Jul 2020

...and pointing out that the medical personnel involve can't respond directly because it would violate the privacy of their patients.

She'll blow them off, of course.







link to testimonials from Elmhurst personnel:

https://zdoggmd.com/elmhurst-hospital/
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