Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

live2011

(101 posts)
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 11:14 AM Aug 2020

The USA is a REPUBLIC, not a Democracy.

`Let’s be honest, America. The United States of America is not and never has been a Democracy, despite all the rhetoric from the politicians, who are trying to deceive you. The United States of America was founded and instituted as a REPUBLIC, specifically DESIGNED to prevent America from EVER becoming a Land of Equals. The Founders HATED Democracy and openly said so.

“The framers were of the opinion that democracy (rule by the common people) was “the worst of all political evils,” as Elbridge Gerry put it. For Edmund Randolph, the country’s problems were caused by “the turbulence and follies of democracy.” Roger Sherman concurred: “The people should have as little to do as may be about the Government.” According to Alexander Hamilton, “all communities divide themselves into the few and the many. The first are the rich and the wellborn, the other the mass of the people.… The people are turbulent and changing; they seldom judge or determine right.” He recommended a strong centralized state power to “check the imprudence of democracy.” And George Washington, the presiding officer at the Philadelphia Convention, urged the delegates not to produce a document merely to “please the people.”13 Page 8, “Democracy For The Few” by Michael Parenti

“The framers believed the states were not sufficiently forceful in suppressing popular uprisings like Shays’s Rebellion, so the federal government was empowered to protect the states “against domestic Violence,” and Congress was given the task of organizing the militia and calling it forth to “suppress Insurrections.” Provision was made for erecting forts, arsenals, and armories, and for the maintenance of an army and navy for both national defense and to establish an armed federal presence within potentially insurrectionary states. This measure was to prove a godsend to the industrial barons a century later when the U.S. Army was used repeatedly to break mass strikes by miners and railroad and factory workers.” Page 10, “Democracy For the Few” by Michael Parenti

“In keeping with their desire to contain the propertyless majority, the founders inserted what Madison called “auxiliary precautions” designed to fragment power without democratizing it. They separated the executive, legislative, and judicial functions and then provided a system of checks and balances between the three branches, including staggered elections, executive veto, the possibility of overturning the veto with a two-thirds majority in both houses, Senate confirmation of appointments and ratification of treaties, and a bicameral legislature. They contrived an elaborate and difficult process for amending the Constitution, requiring proposal by two-thirds of both the Senate and the House and ratification by three-fourths of the state legislatures.17 To the extent that it existed at all, the majoritarian principle was tightly locked into a system of minority vetoes, making swift and sweeping popular action less likely. The propertyless majority, as Madison pointed out in Federalist No. 10, must not be allowed to concert in common cause against the propertied class and its established social order. The larger the nation, the greater the “variety of parties and interests” and the more difficult it would be for a mass majority to act in unison. As Madison argued, “A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other wicked project will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the Union than a particular member of it.” pp 10-11 “Democracy For the Few” by Michael Parenti

“Though supposedly dedicated to selfless and upright goals, the delegates nevertheless bound themselves to the strictest secrecy. Proceedings were conducted behind locked doors and shuttered windows (despite the sweltering Philadelphia summer). Madison’s notes, which recorded most of the actual deliberations, were published, at his insistence, only after all participants were dead, fifty-three years later, most likely to avoid political embarrassment to them.21"

“The delegates “gave” nothing to popular interests, rather—as with the Bill of Rights—they reluctantly made democratic concessions under the threat of popular rebellion. They kept what they could and grudgingly relinquished what they felt they had to, driven not by a love of democracy but by a fear of it, not by a love of the people but by a prudent desire to avoid riot and
insurgency. The Constitution, then, was a product not only of class privilege but of class struggle—a struggle that continued as the corporate economy and the government grew.” p 16, “Democracy For the Few” by Michael Parenti

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The USA is a REPUBLIC, not a Democracy. (Original Post) live2011 Aug 2020 OP
The United States is a democratic republic VMA131Marine Aug 2020 #1
Yes, and people commonly say democracy to mean democratic republic. Hortensis Aug 2020 #8
except many monarchies are also considered democracies NutmegYankee Aug 2020 #23
Not to non-academic Americans in everyday use, though. Hortensis Aug 2020 #24
What is "democracy"? NutmegYankee Aug 2020 #30
Umhm. I haven't checked but feel most Americans have an Hortensis Aug 2020 #31
All true. And it sort-of works. n/t Laelth Aug 2020 #2
Absolute bullshit. We're a representative democracy octoberlib Aug 2020 #3
+1 K&R - Representative Democracy is exactly what the US is onetexan Aug 2020 #11
It's BOTH Happy Hoosier Aug 2020 #4
Just as Rome, the USA was founded as an oligarchic republic. It remains so today, with a good dose malchickiwick Aug 2020 #5
US is a republic, but, like a chassis is NOT a car until it has an engine and tires, blm Aug 2020 #6
It's a right wing trope. octoberlib Aug 2020 #27
It's both. A republic is a form of democracy. Goodheart Aug 2020 #7
Not necessarily.... VMA131Marine Aug 2020 #9
Neither China nor North Korea are republics, their phony names for themselves notwithstanding. Goodheart Aug 2020 #12
They absolutely are republics, just not democratic ones VMA131Marine Aug 2020 #17
Please read the info at the link you posted Yeehah Aug 2020 #19
I did, that's why I posted it. VMA131Marine Aug 2020 #25
They absolutely are not. Look up the definition of "republic". Goodheart Aug 2020 #21
Did you see I posted a link to the Wikipedia article VMA131Marine Aug 2020 #26
Of course, you are correct Yeehah Aug 2020 #18
Eldridge Gerry (the father of gerrymandering) was on the losing side lapucelle Aug 2020 #10
It's a floor wax AND a dessert topping! Towlie Aug 2020 #13
Any time I encounter a "republic, not a democracy" type... Paladin Aug 2020 #14
Bingo. Goodheart Aug 2020 #15
Hard same greenjar_01 Aug 2020 #16
The USA of today is not the same as the USA of 1776. kentuck Aug 2020 #20
This is bullshit propaganda from no-nothing clowns. coti Aug 2020 #22
The USA is a representative democracy with a republican form of government Spider Jerusalem Aug 2020 #28
It is both. This is a false dichotamy long promoted by the right wing. yellowcanine Aug 2020 #29

VMA131Marine

(5,139 posts)
1. The United States is a democratic republic
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 11:20 AM
Aug 2020

Republics can be democracies or dictatorships but the key feature that defines them all is the lack of a hereditary monarch.
You can certainly argue about how democratic the US is compared to other republics but being a republic does not preclude a country from being a democracy; the words describe different aspects of a country’s government.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
8. Yes, and people commonly say democracy to mean democratic republic.
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 12:05 PM
Aug 2020

One of many words that have developed more than one valid and widely understood meaning over the centuries.

NutmegYankee

(16,453 posts)
23. except many monarchies are also considered democracies
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 02:26 PM
Aug 2020

Like Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, and the UK.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
24. Not to non-academic Americans in everyday use, though.
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 02:37 PM
Aug 2020

"Even" I've relaxed into using just "democracy." At least I used to be more can't-mistake specific (definitely anal here) for years until I finally accepted that no one was mistaking.



NutmegYankee

(16,453 posts)
30. What is "democracy"?
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 04:05 PM
Aug 2020

A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives. With constitutional monarchies following a Constitution and allowing the country to be lead by leaders elected via universal suffrage, they are indeed as democratic as the USA. Sure, they have some potential checks in place via the monarch, but most are adverse to ever violating the "democratic norms" and interfering. I compare the checks to ours and think we are about even.

And just like in our system, those "democratic norms" are key.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
31. Umhm. I haven't checked but feel most Americans have an
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 04:45 PM
Aug 2020

undefined but firm notion that their democracy is government, as Lincoln said, of, by and for the people, even when the power structure technically varies from nation to nation.

How much it is and how people want it to think of it also varies from person to person. Some are really not comfortable with the responsibility, have a dark view of human nature that insists "the people" will always fail, and want at least an unofficial ruling class made up of people proven overall deserving by earthly success and belonging to the "right" party.

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
3. Absolute bullshit. We're a representative democracy
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 11:26 AM
Aug 2020

I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.

The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but it’s only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.

And indeed the American form of government has been called a “democracy” by leading American statesmen and legal commentators from the Framing on. It’s true that some Framing-era commentators made arguments that distinguished “democracy” and “republic”; see, for instance, The Federalist (No. 10), though even that first draws the distinction between “pure democracy” and a “republic,” only later just saying “democracy.” But even in that era, “representative democracy” was understood as a form of democracy, alongside “pure democracy”: John Adams used the term “representative democracy” in 1794; so did Noah Webster in 1785; so did St. George Tucker in his 1803 edition of Blackstone; so did Thomas Jefferson in 1815. Tucker’s Blackstone likewise uses “democracy” to describe a representative democracy, even when the qualifier “representative” is omitted.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/13/is-the-united-states-of-america-a-republic-or-a-democracy/

malchickiwick

(1,474 posts)
5. Just as Rome, the USA was founded as an oligarchic republic. It remains so today, with a good dose
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 11:29 AM
Aug 2020

of kleptocracy and kakistocracy thrown in for good measure.

blm

(114,405 posts)
6. US is a republic, but, like a chassis is NOT a car until it has an engine and tires,
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 12:00 PM
Aug 2020

the founders chose DEMOCRACY to make the republic FUNCTIONABLE.

People have to stop falling for that US is a republic shit.

VMA131Marine

(5,139 posts)
9. Not necessarily....
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 01:03 PM
Aug 2020

China is a republic, as is North Korea. As I noted in a separate reply, a republic is defined by not having a monarch. Countries with monarchs are kingdoms e.g. United Kingdom of Great Britain, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, etc. Kingdoms can also be democratic (UK).

 

Goodheart

(5,760 posts)
12. Neither China nor North Korea are republics, their phony names for themselves notwithstanding.
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 01:27 PM
Aug 2020

Yeehah

(6,126 posts)
19. Please read the info at the link you posted
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 02:01 PM
Aug 2020

As of 2017, 159 of the world's 206 sovereign states use the word "republic" as part of their official names – not all of these are republics in the sense of having elected governments, nor is the word "republic" used in the names of all nations with elected governments.

VMA131Marine

(5,139 posts)
25. I did, that's why I posted it.
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 03:19 PM
Aug 2020

“ A republic (Latin: res publica, meaning "public affair&quot is a form of government in which the country is considered a "public matter", not the private concern or property of the rulers. The primary positions of power within a republic are attained, through democracy, or a mix thereof, rather than being unalterably occupied. It has become the opposing form of government to a monarchy and has therefore no monarch as head of state.”

The defining feature of a republic is the absence of a monarch with partial or total authority over the land and resources of the country and where heredity determines the line of succession. You could argue that makes North Korea a monarchy even though that title is not used. China and Russia are certainly republics though more or less authoritarian.

VMA131Marine

(5,139 posts)
26. Did you see I posted a link to the Wikipedia article
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 03:20 PM
Aug 2020

“A republic (Latin: res publica, meaning "public affair&quot is a form of government in which the country is considered a "public matter", not the private concern or property of the rulers. The primary positions of power within a republic are attained, through democracy, or a mix thereof, rather than being unalterably occupied. It has become the opposing form of government to a monarchy and has therefore no monarch as head of state.“

Rome was a republic but certainly not democratic in the way we would recognise it.

Yeehah

(6,126 posts)
18. Of course, you are correct
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 02:00 PM
Aug 2020

It's depressing to see so many debating this in this thread.

"But China is a republic!!"

lapucelle

(20,931 posts)
10. Eldridge Gerry (the father of gerrymandering) was on the losing side
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 01:21 PM
Aug 2020

of this Constitutional Convention debate.

Paladin

(32,170 posts)
14. Any time I encounter a "republic, not a democracy" type...
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 01:37 PM
Aug 2020

...I find somebody else to talk to.

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
16. Hard same
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 01:55 PM
Aug 2020

It's wild that these people think they're spouting original or interesting thoughts.

kentuck

(115,019 posts)
20. The USA of today is not the same as the USA of 1776.
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 02:09 PM
Aug 2020

It has evolved into a representative democratic republic. There is much more emphasis on "democracy" today than then.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
28. The USA is a representative democracy with a republican form of government
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 03:53 PM
Aug 2020

anytime I hear someone say "the USA is a republic, not a democracy" I just think "well you don't even know what words mean, why should I pay attention to anything else you have to say?"

yellowcanine

(36,702 posts)
29. It is both. This is a false dichotamy long promoted by the right wing.
Mon Aug 3, 2020, 03:59 PM
Aug 2020

Among other things, it is used to oppose the direct election of the President.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»The USA is a REPUBLIC, no...