There is no way in the world that I could engage in a "discussion" with someone who

[Atticus]

was going to argue that Trump should be re-elected.

If some idiot insists that the world is flat or the Holocaust was a hoax or that windmills cause cancer, should we dignify their proud ignorance by "discussing" the pros and cons of their "position"?

Doesn't the mere act of responding to those promoting an obvious fraud---a transparent obscenity---imply that "there are two sides" worthy of consideration?

There is NOTHING to discuss with a Trump supporter. Frankly, I don't even want to breathe the same air.

[Ferrets are Cool]

1. K and R

[Skittles]

2. CORRECT

[Docreed2003]

3. I'm telling you, it's impossible to deal with these cultists

And I'm losing my temper more frequently around them which isn't good either.

In the OR this week, I got so pissed when one of the scrub techs says "I just can't vote for Biden...all he does is lie and lie". Omg, I don't discuss politics at work but that flew all over me. Like do you not see and appreciate that Trump lies every time he opens his damn mouth??

[Blue_true]

29. There are some that voted for him on his promises, many regret that vote.

I know a couple like that.

But the deep dyed in the wool Trumpers? I don’t waste my time. I tried reasoning with one a couple of years back, it was like talking to a tree. The subject was a current event and the facts were clear and widely reported in tv and print news. Every time I hit him with a fact, he dismissed it as fake news. I gave up and never talked to a person like that again.

[doc03]

4. I have tried you can't talk to them. They don't believe any news not even Fox

anymore. They believe the crap they read on the internet and from Trump that is all. I am Byeden my time for after the election if
Biden wins. I remember 4 years ago the day after the election when all the Trumpsters were prancing around giving each other the thumbs up. I can't wait to walk in the coffee shop and give them the thumbs up. I saved my 4th of July fireworks to set off when they announce the winner.

[Atticus]

6. "I can't wait to walk in the coffee shop and give them the thumbs up." Are you sure your thumb

is the most appropriate digit?

[doc03]

7. LOL nt

[Blue_true]

31. "They don't believe any news, even Fox".

Bingo. Right on the money. They dismiss anything that doesn’t confirm their insanity.

[cyclonefence]

5. It's impossible to communicate

with a person whose universe is so skewed, where right is wrong, where lies are truth, where kindness is cruelty.

[warmfeet]

8. Yep.

I cannot agree more.

[erronis]

9. Via Asha Rangappa: The Ancient Greeks' Guide to Rejecting Propaganda and Disinformation

https://asharangappa.com/the-ancient-greeks-guide-to-rejecting-propaganda-and-disinformation/

In short, the goal of propaganda isn’t persuasion, but rather compliance—it doesn’t employ either Sophia or Phronesis. That is why it is the favored form of communication for authoritarians. It simply demands that we believe, rejecting all other claims to the truth. It’s like asserting the existence of absolute truth, but without using the method of dialectic to reach it, and instead claiming some secret method of truth-finding. The charge that something is “fake news”—without evidence or justification—is itself the ultimate demand to, in the words of George Orwell’s 1984, “reject the evidence of your eyes and ears.”

The implicit demand for obedience contained in deliberately false information is what is most destructive to democracy. When we share a commitment to finding the truth and agree about the method for discovering it, we are setting important democratic ground rules. Not only do these shared values and belief in the process help us arrive at collaborative solutions, but they also give us a bond that sustains our society when our governments reach decisions or make policies that we might disagree with.

So when Twitter tries to insert facts into Trump’s tweets, it is using a very old and democratic method that goes back to the ancient Greeks. It reminds us that we have a responsibility to ourselves and to our fellow citizens to search for, and debate, the truth. It encourages us to be loyal to our shared values and higher principles, not to a person or party.

But when decision-making is based on “choosing sides,” rather than on reasoned argument and discovering truth, these ground rules are eviscerated. Research shows that beliefs premised on loyalty—to, say, a person, or to a partisan affiliation—are especially impervious to facts that question or disprove them. Without a shared factual reality as a starting point, the Aristotelian ideal of debating ideas and achieving consensus on our common issues becomes impossible.

When propagandists, be they presidents or anyone else, reject any attempt to provide facts in the face of lies, they are rejecting the pillars of truth-finding upon which a democratic society is based: curiosity and debate. Accusations—rather than argument—and compliance—rather than persuasion—are incompatible with a democratic dialogue. The ancient Greeks rejected unquestioned propaganda and disinformation as well outside of democratic norms. So should we.

[Atticus]

10. Thank you for one of the most worthwhile posts I have read in several days. It was one of

those succinct reminders of truths which, after we read them, seem like common sense.

[erronis]

12. Coming from you, Atticus, this is an honor. I am just a messenger, as are most of us.

There's so much wisdom out there even tho the noise of the enemy try to drown it out. It's always good to share our resources.

Recently also:
Marcy Wheeler and co-writers: https://www.emptywheel.net/
Heather Cox-Richardson: https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/

[Buckeye_Democrat]

13. Excellent post.

Tribalism often leads to these problems, which is why I get uncomfortable when I see it here sometimes. (Not often, thankfully.)

[JoeOtterbein]

20. Great points!

Thanks for posting.

I would add that a good way to flip a "true believer" is to use emotion as much, or more, than facts. Try to find the basis of his emotional "crush" on certain people or ideas. That is their weakness.

One of my favorites is the fact that George Washington did not have wooden teeth. Instead, he had teeth made from teeth pulled from the mouths of slaves. If the person has a bit of remorse for slavery, it tends to put them off guard. If it's a Trumper go for the kill by dropping a bit of news they may not have heard yet. Like Michael Cohen's new forward about Vegas "golden showers".

[dhol82]

22. That was AWESOME! Good find.

[SeattleVet]

11. Just had an interaction with one of the die-hard yesterday and this morning...

Conversation with a 'friend-of-a-friend' on Facebook.

-----------
FoaF - Yesterday morning, posts a link to BBC story on UAE/Israel peace deal.

Commenter #1: And yet - CNN.com does not even mention this story. (with link to CNN front page)
FoaF: They wouldn't. It makes Trump look good.
Me: {After checking on the CNN home page} It's been up on CNN all day, in the "World" section:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/13/politics/israel-united-arab-emirates-normalization-trump/index.html
FoaF: You had to go look for it. Pretty sure that's front page news.

And on to this morning when I saw the messages...

Me: The story was (and still is, as of 2 minutes ago) linked on the front page, in the World section of the front page. Actually, there are 2 stories linked from the front page concerning this; one is the hard-news article I linked above, and the other is an opinion piece. The notion that 'CNN.com does not even mention this story' is demonstrably false.
FoaF: I do see it now. It is the last one in the list. I didn't see it yesterday at all.
-----------

And, of course, Commenter #1 has not been seen since he first claimed that CNN wasn't covering this.


Well, Duh! That's the way news sites work...the story was on the opening page (and probably started early in the day in the top 'Breaking' section). When I first looked it was the top story in the World section of the front page. When he said I had to go look for it, I checked again and it was still on the front page, but now down to being the 3rd story in the World panel. By the time he checked again it was the 5th story, having been pushed down by newer, more current news items. By tomorrow it will probably be off of the front page - and that's when I fully expect Commenter #1 to pop up again, with something along the lines of, "See - it's not there!".

Hell, not only was the story there, it has been updated multiple times through yesterday and today as new information or commentary came in.

They just don't see what they don't want to see. This is the type of density we have to break through.

[yuiyoshida]

14. They want more death but the thing is...

Just as MANY Republicans are dying as Democrats... the virus doesn't care.

[StocktonNative]

15. I don't speak to them because the accept the heavily racist tone

in the Orange Marmalade's ideology.

That alone makes me stay far way from his Cult45 animals.

[djacq]

16. Arguing with someone who loss faith in the Electoral.

He's betting $200 against America.

[SergeStorms]

17. Exactly.

I've been talking to these dunderheads for four years. They just get worse, more deluded.

[LakeArenal]

18. Not me.

I plan on being a gracious winner.

And am planning to put out my virtual hand and shake on the future.

[Atticus]

21. Some would say that shows you are a much better person than I am.

Others would say that your "forgive and forget" attitude is exactly what will encourage future Trumps.

[LakeArenal]

30. Time will tell. I spoke for myself.

Not trying to be a better person than anyone. Although I think Joe would prefer to release the animosity than to cultivate it.

[JoeOtterbein]

19. Leadership is about convincing people to do things they normally would not do on their own.

Also, while you are trying to change a vote of one person you might have someone listening who might be influenced by your argument.

It may seem fruitless at times, but it's a great feeling when you do flip a Republic to a Democratic vote!

[Atticus]

23. As far as Trumpies are concerned, "kind", "tolerant", "civil" and "polite" all have the

same synonym: "weak".

[JoeOtterbein]

24. Then be a bit mean.

Pick on their hero(s). It all takes time, but now it is not to late to start with any voter.

Test yourself. Set a target person. If there are others around, pick on the bully. You might change a listener or two.

Whatever you do, please don't give up. We need every vote we can get.

[Atticus]

25. Stacking greased bbs would be easier and more productive than trying to "flip"

the knuckle-dragging Confederate flag flying asses who live in my world. Maybe you have a better variety.

[JoeOtterbein]

27. Look for targets that have children.

The little ones can grow to be great "influencers" on parents and grand-parents.

Flipping votes is like cooking a good meal. It takes time. For 2020 time is a wasting! We need your talents. Please keep trying.

(Also, add a little super glue to the grease when no one is watching!)

[CountMyVote4Reality]

26. I emphatically agree.

While I have concerns about “purity” tests and painting everything as either black or white, this is different. It’s the Trumpers that can only engage their warrants as absolute. Their cult will not be persuaded otherwise.

By refusing to “debate” them, we are simply being efficient with our time. Without some circumstantial life event prompting a shock to the system, they are a lost cause.

[leftieNanner]

28. It breaks my heart, but a young woman I know

who is involved in a volunteer situation with me - has a TRUMP 2020 bumper sticker on her truck.