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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy I don't make fun of Mormons or Mormonism, or any other religion.
There's plenty about Mitt Romney to attack without going there.
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HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)It just angers me that they baptized my dead Grandpa. They are entitled to believe whatever they want, until it affects others, especially dead others.
Journeyman
(15,042 posts)
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I am, for the record, a practicing Mormon.
Bryant
Journeyman
(15,042 posts)If it doesn't mean anything, then why do you do it?
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)And those who are dead, in our beliefs, do decide if they want to accept the baptism. If they don't it has no effect.
Bryant
Journeyman
(15,042 posts)'Cause if you can't, then your little "Circus Tent Revival" disturbed her Grandfather's eternal soul (if, in fact, that is what you believe you influence by this "baptism"
, and forced him to make again a decision he already made while he was living, i.e., that he had no interest in being a Mormon.
And absent her Grandfather's consent, this desecration of his memory has disturbed and angered Hockeymom. Don't her wishes play into her Grandfather's eternal memory? Or does a Mormon Bishop get to cut diagonally across everyone else's moral suasion simply on the strength that it suits him, and that in the event his acts do disturb, that's ok, they can be dismissed because they have no effect. Or to put it in simpler terms -- don't worry, it's all bullshit.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)no point in wasting time with more complex terms.
Bryant
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)and don't want this "relative" to baptize ME after I am dead. Can the LIVING do that? Can I notify the Mormon church while I am still alive that I don't want this after I am DEAD? Maybe I have been warned by this.
Oh, and I told my kids about my Grandpa, and MY wishes. "We will PROTECT you, Mom". Can them?
As I said, anyone is free to believe whatever they want, until it interferes in what somebody else believes.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I'm in the world, and I don't want Hindus praying for me. Is there a way to get them to stop?
I don't want a Catholic priest blessing my airplane and all who fly in it. Where is my opt-out form for that?
Smickey
(3,344 posts)Journeyman
(15,042 posts)don't denigrate it for all by hiding behind the fallacy that it can't be explained in "simple terms."
Does your religion respect the wishes of the living, or does it not? Is Hockeymom's opinion about her grandfather worthy of consideration, or is it not? And since you originally broached the subject, if the wishes of the dead trump the acts of your religion, who then speaks for the dead?
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I don't know the circumstances regarding the Baptism for the Dead of Hockeymom's grandfather - my understanding is that without the approval of the family a certain amount of time needs to pass before it can be done (a century I believe) so as to respect the wishes of the family. If that wasn't done in this case, I don't know what to say. I cannot pretend to be an expert on this part of the procedure.
Re: Baptism for the dead - Mormon's believe that Baptism as an Ordinance necessary to be saved. Since you need a body to be baptized, those who die without baptism cannot be baptized without help from the living. So the living do proxy baptisms on their behalf. At that point, those spirits who exist on the other side of death choose whether or not they want to accept the baptism or not. If they refuse, it is as if the baptism was never done. If they accept, than it is as if they were baptized in life.
So in that sense the dead speak for themselves.
It is relatively simple to explain and understand if you understand the core concept - people need to be baptized properly while in the flesh to be saved. But of course, I understand that if you don't accept the premise that people need to be baptized properly while in the flesh to be saved, than baptism for the dead seems at best unnecessary.
Bryant
Edited to add - i see that it was a relative who had it done - that's problematic, because you have conflicting family wishes.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If a Muslim says "There is no god but Allah" should believers in other gods be offended?
If you get sick, and a Muslim prays for your recovery, should you be offended that he is performing a religious ritual on your behalf without your consent?
People of various faiths invoke the blessings of their deity on non-believers all of the time, and nobody makes a fuss over it unless they are Mormons.
siligut
(12,272 posts)Can you even explain the complexity to yourself? Or is it just a feeling, an inkling of something much greater with extraordinary importance that you can't actually grasp? That, my friend is mind-control. A cheesy, but very effective trick. Same goes for the burning in the bosom.
braddy
(3,585 posts)With a Mormon standing in and speaking for them?
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)braddy
(3,585 posts)insult using the names of our dead mothers and children, and even having actors portray them in their secret ceremonies inside the forbidden temples, where we can't even witness the rituals and abuse of our loved ones, and even ourselves after we die, and of all humans, regardless of their wishes.
Mormons can't get the Pope, or our mom, or Billy Graham, or the Dali Lama when they live, but once they die, then they are incorporated into the Mormon rituals and religion as though the Mormons possess them.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Another way to look at it is that Mormons are trying to open the gates to heaven to everybody, rather than damning all those who die without being baptized.
braddy
(3,585 posts)When the Mormons baptize the Pope and Billy Graham they do it not because they weren't baptized but as an act of hostility and aggression.
Jews have done everything they can to try and get the Mormons to quit defiling their dead and their faith, and the Mormons have agreed that the practice should stop, but it never does.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)In your view, is it "desecration" for a Christian to pray, "May God have mercy on his soul" at the funeral of a Jew?
There is nothing - not a thing - being "done to" the deceased by a member of any faith asking the blessings of their god(s) on that deceased person.
There are also no laws relevant to the situation.
We have a First Amendment which protects the free exercise of religion.
This utterly bizarre practice of the Mormons harms no one.
aletier_v
(1,773 posts)Like my sister's career destroyed by Mormons in eastern Idaho.
Mormons are all about Mormons, nobody else.
Romney is a perfect example, and if other Mormons care to take exception to that, then let them clean their house. Same thing for their pedophiles. Mormons always come before non-Mormons.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Look, I lived in Logan, Utah for a stretch and I had difficulties finding housing and getting a bank loan because I am not a Mormon. An officer of Zion's bank asked me straight up "Are you a member?"
That has NOTHING to do with their freedom to conduct whatever religious rituals on behalf of whomever the fuck they want.
There is NOTHING debatable about their right to go into their temples and say anything or pray about anyone or anything they want.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)"X always come before non-X". You could place a million different names in X and the statement would be just as true as the one you made.
My family always come before non-family. Smiths always come before non-Smiths. Freemasons always come before non-Freemasons.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It may be the natural consequences of being a minority in a majority culture, and can happen anywhere that is a reality. But the time I spent in Utah, and not in SLC, did make me wonder about the objectives and methods of this very influential organization.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)It amounts to a person waving a dead chicken over a piece of paper with a name on it.
If someone did that to my name after I died, I wouldn't care, because, well, I'd be dead at the time.
edhopper
(33,650 posts)decided to get involved in politics, like giving millions to defeat Prop 8 in Calif. I don't see why we can't attack the Church.
And as an atheist I would point out the absurdities in all religions.
But given the nature of po0litics in this country, what a person does, and not his or her religion is important for my vote.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)against other people, that 'faith' is not longer anything other than a tool of politics. It is always up to the people who claim a faith to respect that faith, and also to bring respect to it.
Those who decide to pay honor to a tool of oppression need to understand that those oppressed by it will not long remain allies of a traitor honoring the gun to our heads.
Prop 8. The woman with the sign did that to her neighbors. She thinks she can have her cake and eat it too.
sadbear
(4,340 posts)All 17 of them.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)One estimate by a leader of a Mormon Democratic group estimates that 17% of Mormons are Democrats -- that's about a million votes. Now granted, they tend to be concentrated in some of the reddest of red states, so their votes tend to be more than offset by Mormon Republicans, but that's no reason to ignore them --- and certainly no reason to disrespect them.
sadbear
(4,340 posts)Seriously, who gives a f***? Their beliefs don't merit respect. When their religion requires that they put it before everything else, we will never make a bigger dent in that demographic. They are more rigid than Muslims.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)I would prefer that we reach out to that minority and find ways to grow it.
Your way doesn't even qualify as utilitarian.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)You're a model of efficiency!
sadbear
(4,340 posts)So not respecting someone's religion is hating them? I don't respect anyone's religion. Religion doesn't merit respect. Sorry, but I gotta call bullshit. This is just another example of crying hate when a religion doesn't get everything it wants.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Seriously, who gives a f***? Blacks don't merit respect. When their race requires that they put it before everything else, we will never make a bigger dent in that demographic. They are more rigid than Jews.
See there? I just took the previous quote and changed it from religion to race and it magically becomes hate speech
sadbear
(4,340 posts)And no race requires that it be put before everything else like certain religions do. There's a difference that I acknowledge. Do you acknowledge it, too?
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)It's like you're desperately casting about for some excuse to despise people. Trying to find some little known codicil to the "Code of Behavior" to disrespect someone just because they're Baptist. Respecting persons and respecting their beliefs is part of living in a pluralistic society.
And here's the thing. According to the 2008 American Religious Identity Survey, somewhere between 80-85% of Americans identify as holding some type of religious faith. And given the most significant demographic trend in the 21st century is the continuing influx of Latino (read: Catholic) voters, that number isn't going down any time soon and will likely go up.
So as a Democrat, do you want to sit back and take pot-shots that 85% of the electorate and mock their beliefs? Do you want to tell them, "You're fucking stupid, but vote for my candidate anyway?" Good luck with that. And good luck winning elections by actively alienating a sizable majority of the voting public.
That sort of disrespect and dog-whistle politics are EXACTLY the Republicans are pulling minority votes in the upper-single digits. We're supposed to be smarter than they are.
And we're supposed to be better than they are.
sadbear
(4,340 posts)Because to me those are two different things.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)You choose a very poor analogy, and made a false equivalency.
demwing
(16,916 posts)respect doesn't equate to acceptance.
I can respect sharks, but still not swim with them.
sadbear
(4,340 posts)There are several, you know.
demwing
(16,916 posts)if you believe Mormons are more rigid than Muslims.
I followed an alternative religion for ten years in the middle of the heart of Mormonism (Utah Valley, UT), and my interaction with people regarding my faith was positive, curious, and respectful.
They have the right to believe what they believe, and we have the right to believe that their beliefs are unbelievable, but we both have a responsibility to treat each other like humans. If they fail to keep that responsibility, is it an open invite for us to fail as well? If we have to tell lies about them, what does that say about us?
Saying all that, I still like to kid Mormons about their magic underwear.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)Myths, Monsters, Ghosts and Gods are silly and should have no bearing on real world politics and government. The right to believe in those things is protected. Isn't that enough?
On edit....Santa is real!
Egnever
(21,506 posts)What? Religious bigotry? No, that's a one-way street.
ismnotwasm
(42,022 posts)Things people do at different times in history in the name of religion has been messed up, but I don't see the point of making fun of someone's religion either. I dont believe, but billions of people do.
Now making individual fun---people like that Phelps fucker. I'll make fun of him all day. I have no idea what his religion is, but its no form of Christianity I'm familiar with
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Or those protesters from the Westboro Baptist Church. Whatever world they came from, I'd love to "return to sender".
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)And do not care one whit that he's a Mormon.
HeiressofBickworth
(2,682 posts)between mocking a religion and pointing out religious doctrine that is in conflict with democracy and/or good taste.
For example, it is simply in poor taste for a church to single out an individual who had no connection to the church when alive to perform a baptism after death. No matter how Mormons excuse it, it reveals a callous, self-righteous, assumption of superiority that non-mormons loathe. It is spitting in the face of the living.
JFK was called upon to define his loyalty to his church vs his loyalty to his country. The main difference between JFK and Romney is that JFK was not an officer, clergy, leader of his church; he was merely a member. Romney is an officer, clergy, leader and spiritual guide of his church who is running for the presidency. I consider this to be a direct violation of the separations clause of the Constitution. Because he is running in that capacity, I believe it is vital that we examine the beliefs and practices of Mormonism as part of the vetting of this candidate.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)It's like bashing all of Texas because of its Republicans. I'm sure you remember the "bash the South" threads. Disclaimer: I used to share that sentiment myself.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or Judaism?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)I'd prefer to avoid a threadjack, if you want to discuss racist, sexist or homophobic elements in other religions feel free to start a thread.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Here's the OP:
Why I don't make fun of Mormons or Mormonism, or any other religion.
Note the portion I've bolded.
This thread raises the question of whether or not it's a good idea to make fun of any religion.
I think that many religions have the elements that you've highlighted about Mormonism.
Therefore I wonder which religions are OK to make fun of and which aren't.
Are religions like Mormonism open to ridicule because of what you noted? If so, are there not others?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Recently exceptions have been made about Mormonism because of Romney's candidacy. Moving too far afield of that will get the thread locked and the OP told to restart it in the God Dungeon.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)When it comes to women's issues it is hard to separate Muslim societies and cultural values from the religion but if one realizes that 70% of Muslims are from Asia and only 30% from the Middle East and Africa then one can see that the impression of what Islam is, is based on viewing the most extreme parts of a minority, kind of like judging all of the world's Christian communities based on what southern fundamentalists think.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Similarly inclusive or no?
In the 1980s it was discovered that a lost tribe of Orthodox Jews were found in Sudan.
Rabbis were sent and the applied an objective test and found that the group, if anything, was more orthodox and more true to ancient Jewish practices than there modern brothers and sisters. It was arranged to pay a $ 5,000 bribe to get an exit visa for each one and send them to Israel.
The International Organization for Migration was charged with carrying out a secret movement of these Jews to Israel. As it happens Mr. Andy Bruce, my friend who I hired from Berlitz Bangkok (where we had both taught) and who I hired to work for IOM in Indonesia was recruited and spent several years in the Sudan moving thousands of African Jews to Israel. Race was never an issue.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)The Catholic Church itself, IMO, is an institution that's basically on par with the Mormons in terms of backwardness. But the difference is that Catholicism is too big for the Vatican to have the kind of centralized control over everything that the leadership in Salt Lake has over the Mormon Church. That's where the diversity of thought comes in.
Judaism and Islam don't have a central institution at all.
Put another way, I agree with you that there's no moral superiority of other major religions in that regard. There is, however, a little more diversity of opinion in other religions.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I do however think that one ought to be able to criticize any religion freely, be it Mormonism, Islam, Judaism, Catholicism, or what have you.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I know a few - but I think they would be considered "jack Mormons" if I may use that term.
bhikkhu
(10,725 posts)as in 1978 - http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm#eventsleadingto1978
It's better to be educated about things. More generally to the point, the position of many religions on women's rights is, IMHO, objectively evil. To the point that a person belonging to such a religion which requires obedience to it's agenda could not, in good faith, hold office in the US.
I think its worth pointing that out, and it has nothing to do with "making fun".
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)There are plenty of other things to talk about when it comes to Mitt Romney and no need to offend even the relatively small percentage of Mormons - like Harry Reid - and many others who will not be supporting Romney. In fact on religious grounds there is no need to offend even those Mormons who will be supporting Romney. We have lots of material to work with when it comes to Mitt Romney. I don't know of any belief system - secular or religious - that if taken to its logical conclusions does not include some transparent logical flaws.
AsahinaKimi
(20,776 posts)Lets attack the guy in the WASHINGTON REDSKINS CAP... kidding!! seriously Kidding!!
Iggo
(47,583 posts)
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I have known folk of most religions ... they have been liberal, conservative, "middle of the road", apathetic ... its not the religion it is what an individual brings from it.
I was raised with a fairly strict Roman Catholic upbringing ... I credit the church i was raised in (and my parents) with my liberalism. (now 50) I walked away from the Catholic Church and all religion a long time ago ... it still astounds me some a views put forth, by others, about what Catholics are. (as a side note, the Gay men I have been closest to have been members of Catholic vocations and were much more worried about my immortal soul than anything else).
My entire point (and I think in agreement with you) is that if folk are right wing nut jobs .... there is enough to attack right there ... their religions is really irrelevant it is what s/he does.
If Mormonism is "the problem" .... then it is a problem that Harry Reid is a Mormon,as well. Its not, of course, it is what each individual brings to the table.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)But IMO I don't think it should be off limits. I think Republicans need to learn a hard lesson about using faith as a weapon.
If Mitt Romney doesn't want his faith to be used against him he should stand up and say that he apologizes for his party for politicizing religion for the past 30 years and that as leader of his party he will not condone it.
Until he does that, I think everything's fair game. But at this point, it's not even worthwhile. The surest path to an Obama victory seems to be to just give Romney a microphone and let him talk.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)You rip into police, as a class, all the time.
Why such concern for offending Mormon voters, but not for offending cops who vote Democratic?
Edweird
(8,570 posts)are especially easy to laugh at. I an not a bully and don't hassle anyone about their beliefs as long as they respect the fact that their right to believe as they choose ends where I begin. Respect my boundaries and I will return your respect - even if I think you're an idiot.
Zax2me
(2,515 posts)Come on....
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Separation of Church & State.
Laurajr
(223 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)that's really tough luck. When some rightie tells me that Obama's a Muslim, I reply with "Just where *IS* planet KOLOB, anyway?"
To each his own.
madmom
(9,681 posts)
Alduin
(501 posts)
The Mormon religion is sexist, racist, and homophobic. Just like many other religions. I'll continue to mock all relgions until they start treating everyone with respect.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)
mitchtv
(17,718 posts)the mormons as an organized group, came together to run a political campaign to take away my civil rights,I will never forgive them. They are an enemy till death, I will never forgive, nor forget. Nothing they say or do gets any respect from me . I will do anything I can to interfere with this ugly, money worshiping cult, Magic underwear indeed. Same goes for the RCC,, I wouldn't piss on one, even if they were on fire
Cirque du So-What
(26,020 posts)The personal religious beliefs of others do not concern me in the least.
I do, however, have a problem with religious organizations that attempt to gain political and economic power by organizing their adherents toward that end.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)Brigham Young. It's every American's duty to learn about those two fellows.
That's not disrespectful, and if you do it, you'll see my point.
