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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow many people here want a country of low energy, low tech farms?
The reason I ask, is that I've seen a number of threads that seem giddy in anticipation of Gridcrash.
Discuss...
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DJ13
(23,671 posts)Just as soon as they figure out that their iPads and iPhones no longer work.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)n/t
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I think most of the low tech afficiandoes don't really know how much hard work they're in for...
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)since we're, you know, currently doing it. Yeah, it's a lot of work and there's much more work to come but, in 10 years we'd like to be off the electrical grid, growing 1/2 of our own fruits/veggies and all of our own trout and prawns. All doable in a 1950's ranch-style house with a yard the size of a postage stamp.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)My wife and I were thinking of having a prawn tank.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)will be on solar power. Besides, we're in CA so no one's going freeze here. I'm not sure what you're trying to store. If it's water, we're setting up underground cisterns to catch rainwater from the roof. If it's food, I'm a serial canner and I pretty much can year-round whatever is in season. As such, we have LOTS of storage space for foodstuffs. We have our own compost piles and we are starting to raise worms for their castings to be used for the garden and also to feed nutrients to the fish/prawns.
A few years ago we decided to completely re-purpose our house so instead of nice green, water-wasting lawn, we'll have miniature containered fruit trees in the front along with a nice pergola with climbing grape vines and paving stones in between everything. In the back we've already pulled the lawn and replaced it with 3-16X16 square foot gardens and paving stones plus we have an orange and a lemon tree.
It's a lot of work but by the time I'm ready to collect SS, the house should be paid off, we'll grow 1/2 to 3/4 of our own food, cut down our water bill and won't have to pay for electricity.
WCGreen
(45,558 posts)We compost and recycle and have got our trash down to one can a week. I know it's still a lot, but I am really compromised health wise so some of the stuff I need is not recyclable.
Next year we are going to try and get a pretty good veggie garden going. We were going to do it this year but I was in the hospital for that crucial week when we should have been getting the garden ready.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Timing really IS everything. That and watering. We still don't have everything on drip irrigation but that's coming. It's taken several years to figure out what is best to grow in the square foot garden and what grows better in pots but each year we get more and more yield. This last summer we had the best yield ever. Throughout peak season I like to base meals solely or mostly on the garden harvest if I can. It's a wonderful tool to not only supplement our grocery bill but I KNOW everything is organic. We won't even get into what real fresh veggies, picked literally minutes ago, tastes like.
Most everything is done for the season now (except the peppers, eggplant and butternut squash) but the winter garden is in the process of going in. I already have onions, collards and lettuce popping up their little heads.
WCGreen
(45,558 posts)perhaps some onions and peppers. Potted Tomatoes did well.
We have a lot of dear around here.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)byt using solar power isn't low tech or low power.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)I'm not so much preparing for some apocalyptic End Times as going for reducing my monthly outlay, having more control over my food source AND being less dependent on corporations.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Zalatix
(8,994 posts)A Plutonomy is everything you fear from a real societal collapse, but with the rich watching you from the safety of their walled-in enclaves, enforcing the situation with their army of corrupt police thugs.
See: Mexico.
We're headed for that.
A total gridcrash puts their skin in the game.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)as long as they've got the following:
-a medic
-a welder/fitter
-a grower
-someone with electrical training
TexasProgresive
(12,730 posts)Strategic defense.
Group leader.
Weapon expert in maintaining modern weapons and the development of weapons made from natural materials.
Spinners and weavers.
Meat and plant producers and preservers.
Welder/fitter needs to be a black smith.
Well this list could go on and on.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I guess I'll have to bring up this list at the next Maker-space meeting.
Shitty Mitty
(138 posts)Just keepin' it real
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)my friends and just wait out the gun crowd...
We've got swords, knives, and training...
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)n/t
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I believe I said my wife and I grow a good deal of our own food...
WHY do you want people to live like dark ages peasants?
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)COARSE-LOAMY, MIXED, SUPERACTIVE, NONACID, THERMIC MOLLIC XEROFLUVENT mean anything to you?
How about FINE-SILTY, MIXED, SUPERACTIVE, CALCAREOUS, MESIC AERIC HALAQUEPT?
Or FINE, MIXED, ACTIVE, THERMIC ABRUPTIC DURIXERALF?
Yeah, I didn't think so.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)does the term "dominance by eloquence" mean anything to you? THought so.
Strangely enough, Clover (and soybean, and fish bodies) seems to work...
Unless you'd care to show WHY such won't work, maybe you'd look to go and put your dunce cap back on.
Again... Once more with feeling...
WHY do you want others to live like dark ages peasants? What's the selling point?
Response to XemaSab (Reply #176)
littlemissmartypants This message was self-deleted by its author.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)local power is a lot easier to configure, than long distance power...
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)If you need any CG animators to help out let me know.... 
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)The DIY aspect is pretty easy...
REP
(21,691 posts)A lot more of those run by people and a lot fewer factory/industrial farms run by mega corps.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I'll admit to a bias for DIY solutions, but I'll go with mass-manufactured solar/wind
REP
(21,691 posts)Seems like a good combo; jobs and energy.
I know of at least one manufacturer (food) that uses 100% solar. It's just one example, but it does show solar is feasible for that type of application (and they're in Wisconsin).
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I think we can forego Gridcrash, personally.
I get the feeling that some on this site, really want our high tech civilization to go away... for some reason.
REP
(21,691 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I'm not sure most folks know the work involved, or the drastic reduction in life span...
Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)reduced. As for farms, we never should have allowed the family farms to be destroyed and taken over by corporations. They are a PITA to their neighbors.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)By the way, did you know that "Kumbaya" is actually "kum by ya" which translates from the Creole as "come by here". "Come by here my lord...".
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Just don't try to force it on and mine...
randome
(34,845 posts)
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)if capital-intensive farming was no longer sustainable
just like in the loser countries
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts) a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Forcing folks to work on farms isn't very nice...
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)same outcome
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)BOG PERSON, I have to "somewhat respectfully disagree"
Cambodia had the ruling group KILLING people who wouldn't work the fields. (they also killed people just because...)
pretty much serves as my starting example for a case against communism and socialism...
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)the fact is societies need people to do certain unenjoyable work (not degrading) to survive and grow. society doesnt operate on volunteerism. people are either compelled by the threat of privation or something else.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Please provide proof...
Are you okay with the Khmer Rouge killing those people? Why?
Like I said... textbook cases of why NOT to become communist.
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)that agriculture is important but nobody likes doing it? uhh
10 million people die every year of starvation. why are you okay with that.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)so somehow... the Khmer Rouge killing fields are okay, by your standards...
If nobody wants to do it, why not replace it with automation?
Or is there some other reason you want manual labor?
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)but . most countries are too poor for automated agriculture. as was cambodia... the whole idea of the khmer rouge was not a "back-to-the-land" movement from hell - but to underwrite crash industrialization w/ bumper rice crops - and this was the point at which they parted ways with the peasant rebellion that brought them to power .
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)then why the killing fields?
As to harnessing technology for human needs... we get into that issue of what's a "need"?
littlemissmartypants
(33,588 posts)Red Khmers was the name given to the followers of the Communist Party of Kampuchea in Cambodia. It was formed in 1968 as an offshoot of the Vietnam People's Army from North Vietnam.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)thank you...
and the Khmer Rouge were some seriously scary people...
marasinghe
(1,253 posts)until you spouted the standard low-info nonsense, of conflating communism & socialism with authoritarianism & tyranny. it's just a step short of conflating the Nazis with socialism, 'cos they called themselves the National Socialist party.
in passing, i spent a fair amount of my youth among small-scale rice farmers, agrarian villagers, and suchlike denizens of the 'dark ages', back in my native Asian country. a fair bunch of them were happier, more content, healthier & had more fun, than many of the canned air-conditioned, sealed office & apartment building denizens i now hang with. let's not generalize about others, with insufficient evidence.
on a side note, about a month back, i read an article on the web - which stated the the USA consumes 75% of the global energy used on air-conditioning. the USA still consumes roughly one-third of global energy consumption. and then it has the arrogance to attack countries like China & India, for going the fossil fuel route. any collapse of the grid - which i believe is inevitable - can logically be placed right at the door of the US lifestyle. the death & destruction of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, & millions of Southeast Asians, South Americans and other nationalities, the possible destruction of Iran, etc., are linked at the hip - with the maintenance of Western society's grid.
i'd say, better start getting accustomed to 3rd world lifestyles.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)So you are looking forward to the loss of technology?
As I've discussed with others, there's no NEED to have to live low tech. We can easily replace the oil-fueled grid with alt power micro-grids.
hunter
(40,690 posts)... and we call them "illegal."
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)we can do the work with automation.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Growing food sucks!
In the future we'll have robot slaves to grow our arugula, because no human should be forced to do something so demeaning as WORK OUTSIDE for a living!
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)so... by your words... it's okay to force folks to work? Why?
Yavin4
(37,182 posts)It didn't go so well.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Every time people start vocally pushing for "we must all live and work on farms" I start looking for the exit.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)while the yuppies eat organic arugala & do the 'important' work of fucking everyone else.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)porphyrian
(18,530 posts)Urban and community gardens are gaining in popularity, which is great, but I think it could be even better, such as with green roofs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_roof). I think we should also look into reclaiming land that has become desert or that has been paved over through some variation of what they've done here:
http://vimeo.com/7658282
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)porphyrian
(18,530 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)in shedding the heat, we can use it for power, and grow crops in the desert.
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)cities.
a 7 story building averages 80 feet tall. That 80 linear feet X perimeter. only half of the perimeter will see sunlight. with a wall facing of 50 feet, we get something like enough food for 20 people (not including any roof gardens, which ought to add another family).
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)Lots of possibilities.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)we ought to be able to have farm fresh food for all, in most C and B level cities...
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)...to create energy. Maybe a closed system with a liquid the lightening vaporizes and sends through a turbine or some such. It may even have to be a solid. I don't know, it was a shower idea.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I'll ask my wife for permission to play with it.
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)I'm guessing heat will be a problem and you'll want some kind of emergency ground, but I'm not an electrical expert, either.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)turbine.
My wife yelled at me, when old friends told her some of my misadventures with electricity...
She yelled at me in Old English, Greek, and Latin.
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)...so that you wouldn't have to keep replenishing the fluid, or solid that gets vaporized, if you go that way.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)no constant feed-ins needed.
Mind you, I HAVE to get permission from my wife, first. (It's in the pre-nups).
kentauros
(29,414 posts)The problem is that the output frequency is in the terahertz range! Here, read the material and see why I sincerely hope that this and Polywell fusion take off 
The Bright Future of Solar Antennae
Q&A: Steven Novack
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)maybe hook the heatsink to a capacitor, and bleed off the charge?
kentauros
(29,414 posts)but isn't operating frequency important over the whole circuit? Maybe a capacitor would work. I just don't know the output voltage, or the capacitance, if I have the proper terminology 
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)higher freqs and "dirty" power.
Hmmm... I needed a project or two, after this paper was finished...
kentauros
(29,414 posts)and see if they considered that option. It may have knocked down their efficiency rating too much. That, or they want to merely step down the frequency directly to a/c current and keep that high efficiency.
And from the person that had a shed blow up, I'd like to see you build a Polywell fusion cube 
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I may try that... but my wife would likely call some of my ex gf's, to keep me in line.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)Plus, you'd have to get the Boron-Hydrogen fuel they're proposing to use, unless you can make that, too
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)rats!
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)or we can, you know, grow plants in the soil like a bunch of Dark Age peasants.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and no nasty chemicals used.
Why would city farms need to be 100% dependent on the chem industry?
Why would it be better to live like dark ages peasants?
EWWW...
XemaSab
(60,212 posts) a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)How about food scrap composting?
How about plowing clover back into the soil?
steam distilled "natural fertilizer"?
Why live low tech, away from cities, when we don't have to? What's the selling point?
XemaSab
(60,212 posts) a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)where am I wrong?
If you are going to attempt to criticize, try to post some numbers.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts) a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)as most of the "chemical" fertilizers leach nitrogen compounds, we should use clover to reverse the damage, and sustain the soil.
No need to live in little dark age villages. What's the selling point?
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Try again!
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)How about this one?
http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/archive/jdeacon/microbes/nitrogen.htm
Why are you so into living like a dark ages peasant?
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)You don't have the faintest clue, therefore your magic solution isn't so magic and isn't such a solution.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)"magic solution" nope just using facts
I know that clover and soy, when plowed into the soil, make a nifty fertilizer.
Why do you want others to "live" like a dark ages peasant?
EWWW.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)other than
How about plowing clover back into the soil?
steam distilled "natural fertilizer"?
If you're going to have high-output vertical farming, you're going to need high inputs.
If you have several months, a cover crop of clover or soybeans will provide some nutrients, but certainly not enough nutrients to enable you to forego using other sources of nutrition.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)you've got rhetoric, not facts...
I posted a few links.
Where's yours?
Is there a reason you want others to be forced to live like dark ages peasants?
XemaSab
(60,212 posts) a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I'd like to know where you got yours from...
Also...
1.) where are my facts wrong?
2.) why do you WANT others to have to live like dark ages peasants (your words, not mine)
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)where I sat in class with a bunch of hippies who thought that clover was some kind of magic bullet.
I watched them get the smackdown EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. and God, it was good.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)This ought to be fun...
(wow... nobody's EVER called me a hippie before. I may have to change my wardrobe...)
the victory gardens didn't use high nitrate fertilizers. How come that won't work now?
http://thedoublevictorygarden.com/
WHY on earth do you want others to be forced to live dark ages style? Should I invest in armor and a sword? ("...to crush your enemies..."
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)...about subjects where I obviously know nothing."
However, you're still here.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)WHY do you want others to live like dark ages peasants?
You've been on this thread saying "wrong answer" a lot, and I've posted reputable links...
What is your base reason for forcing people to live low tech?
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I'm just asking why YOU are okay with the Khmer Rouge killing people...
Ah... communism at its best, seen in Cambodia.
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)when they're killed by communism, or seeing things in a more balanced way when the US drops millions of tons of ordnance and a hundred thousand tons of herbicide on them.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)so you're cool with people killing millions of their own...
Seeing things in a more balanced way... When did I say I was for the Southeast Asian conflict?
Communism... It's academic for DUMB.
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)you're lame and boring
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)WHY are you okay with a country forcing its people into drudge work?
WHY are you okay with forcing folks - against their will - into low tech lifestyles?
(Of course, I believe that it was YOU who didn't want to let people leave earth, until everyone was a good communist...)
Also...
Isn't "you're lame and boring" a personal attack?
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)i'm done w/ this thread anyway
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)NickB79
(20,356 posts)Likely their crops did well without large amounts of high-input fertilizers because they were burning through soil nutrients that had taken many, many years to slowly accumulate. If those gardens had been required to keep up with war demand for another few years, yields would have seen a marked decline even with cover crops, green manures and compost.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)
bananas
(27,509 posts)XemaSab
(60,212 posts)There are some seriously punchable hippies in Arcata, CA.
nebenaube
(3,496 posts)Clover, there is rye, fermented urine, cow dung, fish emulsion... Dad has used the family garden, that his father and his grandfather used for decades, no fancy fertilizers needed.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)But on the side of a high-rise, it's going to take a lot more.
You can't even ship in native topsoil for something like that. You're going to have to start with something out of a bag.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)My wife and I use all but the dung and the urine, and we have more than enough food for us.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)I have been gardening for decades. Planting a cover crop to fix nitrogen if very common. You then dig it under when ready to plant. Am I missing something?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)My wife and I have been doing the clover turn over...
We've got more than enough kale and tomatoes...
Seriously, we have enough... want some?
NickB79
(20,356 posts)The yields you get from your garden likely aren't even close to the levels expected from some of these high-output setups that are being discussed here. It's one thing to take a hundred pounds of vegetables out of a garden every year and keep your soil in good shape. It's quite another to intensively farm that same plot of land, get two or three times that amount of food, and think you can maintain those yields indefinitely without major soil management practices beyond simply planting a bit of clover.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I'm figuring on using garden scale farming, just MORE OF IT.
Simple to do, simple to fix.
No need to leave the cities. No need to live like peasants in the dark ages.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)but for a huge factory farm,maybe not. I always read about huge vats of animal waste from factory farms and it seems that there ought to be a way to use that waste to improve the soil.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Vertical farms can't use native soil.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)I grow a ton of stuff in pots. I improve my soil with rabbit and composted chicken droppings as well as worm castings from my worm farm. For vertical gardening this would be viable.
obamanut2012
(29,369 posts)And, although I don't have a soil science degree like Xema, I do know something about non-hobby farming, and I agree with her on this.
So, you would plow on urban rooftops and provide soil nutrients via food scrap composting. Hmmm.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Plowing's pretty easy... use roto tillers, or build a spading machine.
It's a better solution than living low tech.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)I do this now. I also have a couple of pet rabbits and a couple of chickens. I use their waste to enrich the soil also. The rabbit waste can be used fresh. THe chicken waste has to be composted.
I also have a worm farm and use the castings to improve my soil. I have a compost pile too. It certainly is doable. I raise lots of food in earthboxes on one of my porches.
Autumn Colors
(2,379 posts)Combination of aquaculture (fish farming) and hydroponic farming. It uses LESS water because the water is filtered back and forth between the plants and the fish. The fish make nutrients for the plants and the plants oxygenate the water for the fish.
Take a look at our friends' farm in Hawaii. They started small and are now a commercial farm and are committed to teaching others to do this to expand food independence.
http://www.friendlyaquaponics.com
EDIT: They recently teamed up with another person to teach people how to build a DIY solar greenhouse (to power fans/heating units and the pumps that transfer the water back and forth between the fish and plants). Also working on a biomass-powered generator.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)they were doing something like this.
Never heard what happened to them.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)with aquaponics. It's not a matter of IF we're going to do it but when which will be however much time it's going to take to scavenge the parts and put it all together. Husband wanted to raise talapia but I talked him into trout. He plans on raising prawns as well.
piratefish08
(3,133 posts)XemaSab
(60,212 posts)40% waste wouldn't happen.
That would require 40% more input than is needed for people.
You were joking right?
They sell cow poop there LOL
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)The roof?
snooper2
(30,151 posts)On the farm I grew up on we tended not to let the cows graze in our gardens anyway
We can have corporate farming, traditional family farms, community farms..There's nothing wrong with having a mix.
I see not huge skyscrapers but maybe 2-3 level rooftop farms in the cities for veridical farming. Enough where the people who live in the building can all lend a hand with costs and work. Same for people in subdivisions. They love their homeowners associations, give that group of nannies something else to work on. How much broccoli to plant this year LOL..
For a college educated kid you haven't thought this all the way through have you?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)not enough land area.
friend xema seems to dislike technology, and seems to have a thing against clover and soy to revitalize soil.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Have two to three levels of gardens on the roof.
Of course we have to ensure it can take the load...for older ones just a 600 square foot garden on top. Our two cherry tomato plants produced enough for us and our neighbors with three kids all summer.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)given some of the buildings in some cities, I'm surprised they are still standing...
I guess retrofitting old buildings can become a new hobby of mine...
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)soy and clover will not be sufficient to revitalize the soil without massive chemical inputs.
I think soy and clover are great for organic farming in native soil.
But farming in native soil involves grubbing in the dirt like a peasant, so you're not into that.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and yah... you sounded like dirt grubbing was your thing.
YOU want to be a dark ages peasant, go do that you do....
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Also, plants require a lot more than nitrogen to grow.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)because no human should be forced to do something so demeaning as WORK OUTSIDE for a living!
or we can, you know, grow plants in the soil like a bunch of Dark Age peasants.
you heavily implied that's the way to go...
As I keep saying, time and again...
If you want to live like a dark ages peasant, have at it. Why should I have to live like one?
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Then you yourself already grow plants like a dark ages peasant.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)we grow plants in raised beds, and some hydro.
further, we use these weird things called lights to help them grow.
In addition, we also use this stuff called "electricity" to read by.
No dark ages peasant living here, at Casa de Geek.
WHY do you want to live like a dark ages peasant? What's the selling point?
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)n/t
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)but you never answer my question:
WHY do you want others to live like dark ages peasants?
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)Soon robots will be doing most of the labor at farms. Workers will be around to program and repair the robots.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Abbie Hoffman had a plan like this...
"let the machines do the work, and we can all party."
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)Unfortunately it's all geoagriculture. Vertical farms (where robots would definitely do all the work, since they are well suited to such situations) may or may not come online quick enough to stem the disaster that climate change is about to bring.
104 degrees F and you lose photosynthesis. The latest drought was one of the worst on record. Expect it to get even worse.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)If outdoor farming becomes hostile, it will move inside where conditions can be controlled. Back to robots. Machines exists which distinguish color. Some can sniff certain odors. Machines exists that manipulate chicken eggs. The only missing link are people to bring all of those capabilities into one machine, that is being done as I write.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)isn't the science answer to your question.
tech does a lot -- tech also creates a lot of problems that can't be answered by more tech.
we need to come to some sort of rational conversation about that.
and this isn't that conversation.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) do you want to e on a low tech low energy farm? Why?
2.) misuse of technology causes problems.
3.) what sort of rational conversation should we have?
4.) Why do I have to get used to living low tech? Is someone going to try and make me? (That could be fatal for someone...)
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)That would be something......ANYTHING......other than what we have now.
Now YOU discuss.
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)...and monoculture agribusiness.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)CSA gardens.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)I personally think we need smart-tech. We have so many smart people in this world that if we could accomplish so much if only we could get research away from corporations who care only about profit.
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)...commercially, but there are a number of real world examples. Take open source software; most of these programs are developed by trained and/or talented individuals who volunteer their time or work to make a good product that is offered for free. It may be more difficult getting engineers or physicians, say, to do the same (if nothing else, they're trying to pay off enormous student loans), but it's certainly not impossible.
Maybe we should start a thread and/or group for posting brilliant ideas, if there isn't already something like it.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)That I'm a fan of DIY and Garage-tech.
You may see an old pick up truck. I see a windmill, a few planters, and a smelter.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)I've seen you use the word a couple times and I am interested in the meaning.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)A "Maker" is a person who likes building/inventing/tinkering, as a hobby/job/lifestyle. The name was derived from Make Magazine, which caters to Makers. As an icon, think Macguyver.
I've grown up around Makers all my life, we just used different words.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)There's a convention/expo/faire this weekend, in NYC...
Smickey
(4,689 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)once in a while
Smickey
(4,689 posts)Required reading back in the day.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)All of us got together, and set fire to the Aristotle books.
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)I used to have strong anarcho-primitivist sympathies. Now I would rather have us breed ourselves over the top, burn every last bit of carbon in the ground, drop the pH of the oceans to 5.0, cover the landscape into cement and asphalt, replace all natural animals with robotic facsimiles and have Craig Ventor re-engineer our own genome - just to see what happens...
It doesn't matter what you or I want, the world is going to turn out however it does, despite either of our preferences. However it turns out, I'm going to watch and laugh.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)While I fix things, and spit on those with a passivity compex
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Low tech, compost, manure, and cardboard.
Enough squash to last the winter.
More zucchini than we can possibly eat (we treat it to neighbors for farm fresh eggs).
Raspberries, blueberries, and blackberries.
Several varieties of tomatoes.
Several varieties of peppers.
All kinds of greens.
Broccoli and cauliflower.
Beans, beans, beans.
Oh, grapes, and carrots.
And tomatillos, yummy salsa verde
The racoons ate all our corn, though. Live and learn.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)We got a bumper crop of kale this year. I'm trying to figure out how to make kale into those vietnamese salad wraps.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)You really are some piece of work.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I just despise philosophers.
As for the spitting, It shows the merest shadow of the depth of my feelings for those pushing learned helplessness.
You want to laugh at civilization going down, be my guest.
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)What do you gain from despising others? What value does hatred hold for you? It must be filling a deep wound in you, since you're so attached to it.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I guess laughing is good for the soul.
I spit on philosophers for being the problem, instead of helping fix things.
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)Have Kant, Hegel and Hume really obstructed the march of Progress™?
I've found that a bit of honest self-appraisal goes a long way towards making life easier and more productive. Holding onto early childhood wounds without recognizing and healing them is as damaging as leaving an infected cut forever unattended.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)while I thank you for your much needed explanation of your issues...
I hold no value in people sitting around and doing little.
As for my issues... I'll own up and state I've got PTSD, multiple H1 and H2 stressors, episodic triggers. How about you?
But back to the matter at hand.
You seem to have this fetish for valuing doing nothing, over fixing the problem at hand. Why is that?
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)I don't believe in trying to fix the unfixable, and my analysis over the last 8 years has convinced me that the problem you're tackling is unfixable.
So while I do do things (as do we all, since as human beings it's impossible to do nothing) I prefer to do other things than you do.
Sorry about your psychological issues. I assume you're getting help for them?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I disagree with your analysis. In other threads, I've pointed out methods to fix global warming, pollution, and power/energy shortages. What is the starting point of your analysis? What your the logical chains?
As to my issues, i figure it's par for the course (living through riots and gang-fighting will do that to you...) To deal with it, I build stuff, fix things, and help out my neighbors. (Sorry I've nothing darker for this comment...)
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)The foundations of my viewpoint are in these articles:
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Population.html
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/WEAP/WEAP.html
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/WEAP2/Energy_Intensity_GDP_2050.html
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/DTMandEnergy.html
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Hyperbolic%20Discount%20Functions.html
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/COP15.html
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Population%20Decline%20-%20Red%20Herrings%20and%20Hope.html
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/GuardianInstitutions.html
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Population%20Limits.html
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/CC_Overshoot.html
And my high-level overview of the situation:
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/50000_Foot_View.html
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Gimme a little time, and I'll give you my usual vitriol... (mustn't disappoint...)
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)There's a reason so many farm kids flee the farm for an urban career and it has nothing to do with the smell of manure. Even Abe Lincoln bailed on the farm life as soon as he could.
Its really tough, especially in bad weather.
I can guarantee you, I've never been one of those who've advocated gridcrash. I TREASURE our modern conveniences and dream of retirement more times in a day than I care to admit....
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)If things go even a smidgen of the way I think they will, you could move to a small city, and still get farm fresh veggies.
I LIVE for fresh peppers and organic celery!
MercutioATC
(28,470 posts)...the work would be as difficult (perhaps a little more so) but it'd pay a whole lot better (either in terms of tangibles or status/power within the community).
People who know how to grow things would be very valuable.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)The delusion being that Mother Nature is a kind nurturing mother who takes care of us and that technology is hurting her. It is in fact the Christian doctrine of Original Sin under a New Age Neo-Pagan guise.
Then when you refute their arguments they pull the "This is what ancient Native American wisdom says, so you are a bigot who hate Native Americans!!!" or some similar Noble Savage BS.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Sometimes, when I read work from those pushing:
-deep ecology
-"let's just wait and think about things" meme
I really start to wonder what they've been smoking...
Look... I'M a romantic. So much so that I flew an ultralight in a winter storm to see my then girlfriend (now wife). I'm a romantic enough to believe we ought to be stepping up our exploration of space, for the dream of flight.
The Deep Ecology/Low tech crowd is just nuts!
quaker bill
(8,264 posts)did some pretty interesting stuff.
When the spanish brought horses here, the natives were quite in shock as those living had never seen such an animal. Biologically this is interesting because horses evolved here and had been driven to extinction 10s of thousands of years earlier.
Florida was easy to get around in when the spanish arrived. This is because the natives burned the woods here on a regular basis, mostly because it made it easier to shoot bambi.....
JVS
(61,935 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)you got me... I'm confused...
JVS
(61,935 posts)with soylent to eat instead of burritos and extra big-ass fries.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I shouldn't have the fries, lest I have a big ass...
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)Idiocracy isn't the future, it is now.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Technical literacy as revolutionary activity!
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and folks just don't use the word sermon up in these parts.
I know, I know... we're all a godless bunch of pagan liberals... (but at least the parties are fun.)
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)Just teaching critical thinking skills would help the majority, I believe, but I have no intention of losing my technocomforts if I can help it.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I've been pushing critical thinking skills whenever I can.
At the end of every semester, I give my students a "suggested reading list"
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)(Idiocracy reference)
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)
ruffburr
(1,190 posts)I lived off grid for twenty Yrs in my 800 sq ft cabin and solar panels built water sys etc best time of my life just requires some patience and know how no big deal ,So don't freak get into it if thats what comes
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I intend to be working with folks to bring the grid back.
I wonder why some folks seem to be pushing for others to HAVE to live low tech...
randome
(34,845 posts)People who have found it hard to adapt to the Information Society. Rather than try to 'catch up', it's easier to denigrate the entire thing.
Not saying that everyone HAS to have the same mindset regarding technology, but that's what I usually see as the reason for people to yearn nostalgically for the past.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I just can't get into the idea of someone running around trying to FORCE others to live like that.
Maybe I heard too many stories from my grandparents, about why they left Ireland and Italy...
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)If you're a malcontent, what better fantasy could you possibly have than the world burning down and being reborn in your image of utopia?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Mind you, I would warn the would-be malcontents that there are those of us that wouldn't hesitate to shoot, if said malcontents swing 'round our way...
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)This nation was built by malcontents and I have no problem with someone expressing their dreams. Some gun nuts (not saying you) have very similar dreams. Even the utopia isn't that much different.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I regard such a life as little more than savagery.
This is also the reason I'm against riots.
Response to ruffburr (Reply #81)
littlemissmartypants This message was self-deleted by its author.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)...(but it was in the Gungeon, so was promptly labeled nutty "survivalism" or something). Some important points:
(1) Why does everyone want to "bug out" to the hinter lands? Very few folks know how to deal with life in wilderness or even domesticated rural situations. Why not stay where you are (if it's the city) and make do in an environment you know best? Here, you will find your own place, probably a neighborhood to share work and ideas, community self-defense, more diverse resources, and better prospects for improvement. In Detroit, there is a renaissance (or more accurately) a return to "urban" farming, notably in former neighborhoods which have been scraped clean. Said another way: Check your yard and see how much stuff it can produce.
(2) If you had a choice of one utility, potable water is THE list. Any deer hunter or back-to-nature type who buys a hundred acres in Javelina Breath, Texas, knows to take the water, even (or especially) if it is wind-mill powered; you can make do without power until you create your own source or substitute.
(3) Schlesinger, in his 2010 book "The Battery," notes that more and more stuff is running on less and less juice, and with battery tech getting far better, distant communication may not be a significant impediment. (I have noted small battery-powered HAM radio devices are now available.)
Speaking of giddiness, the oft-stereotyped old fart who lived through the Great Depression and said "what this country needs is another depression," was actually waxing nostalgic for a time of personal contact, community connection and cooperation, as this person had already seen the wave of urban depersonalization and appliances in service of hermetically sealing oneself off from others and their problems during the Twenties. His eyes were not rose-colored glass, and his face was straight.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I've been harvesting some of our soil for lead. I've got the OLD books on making your own batteries.
As for potable water, I've got a solar furnace that focuses on a still...
My neighbors and my household hae already started making contingency plans...
wutang77
(31 posts)am one of those people whose life goes into complete chaos if I can't check Facebook, and email.
Response to wutang77 (Reply #98)
littlemissmartypants This message was self-deleted by its author.
Ready4Change
(6,736 posts)Estimates vary, but most put the Earths non-technological carrying capacity at about 2 billion people. In other words, if we remove the use of fossil fuels and industrial electric power sources (ie, what I think of as 'the grid') right now, 5 billion people must die.
Right now, we are consuming those resources (fossil fuels, fissionables, etc...) at a rate which will have them depleted in about 150 years. But our rate of consumption is growing fast, particularly with the modernization of many eastern nations. I give us 100 years, tops.
And also consider human tendencies. Humanity, as a single mass organism, has proven incapable of reacting preemptively to upcoming disasters. That means we, as a whole species, won't start reducing our population voluntarily before the depletion of our resources. Instead, we are more likely to keep expanding our population, up to the maximum technological carrying capacity of the Earth, estimated at about 10 billion.
That means, 100 years or so in the future, 8 billion people are all going to die in a VERY short time period. There will be famines, riots, social break downs in many areas, probably wars, and if nature does what nature tends to do when a species population overshoots, plagues. Add to that the effects we suspect will come with the Global warming, that will be exacerbated by our likely use of very dirty tar sands and oil bearing shales, and I think it's very likely that the end of the grid will cause our population to plummet well below 2 billion people.
So, in the long term, I think we will have low energy, low tech farms, whether we want them or not. But none of us will survive the hell on Earth that will usher in that future.
(Ok, enough grimness for today!)
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)We can use the excess CO2 to create food, water, power, construction materials, and housing (and housing with GREAT ocean views...)
MadHound
(34,179 posts)"Industrial agriculture is an inefficient and wasteful system which is chemical intensive, fossil fuel intensive and capital intensive. It destroys nature's capital on the one hand and society’s capital on the other, by displacing small farms and destroying health. According to David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agricultural sciences at Cornell University, it uses 10 units of energy as input to produce one unit of energy as food.
This waste is amplified by another factor of 10 when animals are put in factory farms and fed grain, instead of grass in free range ecological systems. Rob Johnston celebrates these animal prisons as efficient, ignoring the fact that it takes 7kg of grain to produce one kg of beef, 4kg of grain to produce 1kg of pork and 2.4kg of grain to produce 1kg of chicken.
The diversion of food grains to feed is a major contributor to world hunger. And the shadow acres to produce this grain are never counted. Europe uses 7 times the area outside Europe to produce feed for its factory farms."
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/09/23-4
I'm not giddy about gridcrash, but I see it happening relatively soon, within the next thirty years. The American empire is collapsing, and much like Rome, it is going to take much of the rest of the world with it.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)we can curtail grid crash, with a little work. In this thread, I've given the numbers to convert the USA to using solar power. HV AC is more of an issue than local based AC, so I went with that.
I think it would be pretty cool to have this new proposed system in place by 2039 (the 100th anniversary of the 1939 World's Fair in New York).
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Frankly we could have curtailed it thirty years ago. But the problem is the entrenched monetary and political interests that run this country. Do you honestly think that the oil industry, Big Ag, and the various other such interests are going to peacefully turn over their money making products and plans in order to actually do what is right for this country?
Ain't going to happen, sorry. That's why grid crash is inevitable.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Until they outlaw home generators, they can't close up the net.
Until they can restrict buying tools, they can't stop the Makers.
And the change is already happening.
That's sort of the point of a distributed, robust system. No one bunch of idiots (commie terrorist or big oil) can shut the whole thing down. Every person buying some solar panels, every person buying their generation power via solar/wind/hydro buy-ins...
makes up the distributed grids...
MadHound
(34,179 posts)What percentage is produced by fossil fuels?
Oh, yeah, about fourteen percent, up from approximately four percent thirty years ago. That's not much of an increase. With the advent of fracking, big oil and gas is more entrenched than ever, and now able to buy even more politicians.
You can wish that we have this grand switch by 2039, but it simply isn't going to happen. Power is never relinquished willingly, and energy is power.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)in only a very few situations, do we HAVE to buy oil/gas/coal...
Matter of fact, I'm in the process of going off the grid.
The laws on the books allow citizens to create and sell electricity, as long as safety needs are met.
We're in the process of bypassing the entrenched interests.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)But economically, socially, politically, it is not going to happen. Government policies favoring fossil fuels will continue to be generous, if not grow. Policies favoring renewables will continue to be miserly, if not shrink. Corporate policies will continue to push fossil fuels over renewables as well. The economics of coal and natural gas will continue to dictate a centralized power distribution model over a decentralized one. Yes, an increasing number of people will switch to off grid, but the cost factor, the comfort factor will conspire to keep renewables out of most people's reach.
Besides, renewables have become a political symbol, and with roughly a third of population disbelieving in climate change, just how many people will discount the use of renewables automatically? Seventy to one hundred million, that's quite a large part of your equation gone.
I would love to see a decentralized energy model in place, I have advocated for it here and elsewhere, and it can be done, technically. But other obstacles are far to great to readily overcome, at least not in the time frame you're talking about.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) people are making the switch-over. It seems the easy way to sell it to others, is something like:
"I got tired of paying the power company for crappy service, so I slapped together my own system. I used parts from <name part place here>. I've saved about 200 thou, this year alone. Want the instructions?" (The pricey parts for a 2KW windmill are the alternators... 75 bux each, and you need 4!)
The key is going to be not needing subsidies. If we can do that, there's no strings...
If a learning disabled, neurologically impaired dude with PTSD can figure out easy to build systems, I'll assume others can do the same or better.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)That is a strictly a rural endeavor and only five percent of the population lives in rural areas. The most accommodating tech is solar, we've pretty much gotten to the point with solar tech that you can provide virtually all of the energy needed by a typical household via solar, that is if your climate is suitable for solar, and your house is properly located.
But solar costs money, and for many households they can't drop down the ten to twenty thousand needed to install solar shingles, inverter, battery pack, etc. What would be ideal is if banks would allow you to tack that expense on to your home mortgage, but most of them won't, and government isn't going to be passing any low interest loans for that anytime soon.
Meanwhile, well over half the population lives non-house environments that aren't able to provide the power needed by the occupants. What would be necessary is for every building to be solar, and pool that energy. While a ranch style house can provide the energy necessary for that household, and then some, a five plus story apartment building can't do the same. Thus, you need to have an energy reserve to draw from, and that's either going to be coal/gas, or every building in this country solar powered. I prefer the latter, but economics is going to dictate the former, at least for a while.
And again, there are other factors besides economic playing into this issue. Not to mention that a lot of people are short term thinkers, which will be the death of our society.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)you could link a solar furnace up to a closed cycle steam engine (lindaybks.com...cost about 300-500) then then hook that via slipping clutch to a standard gas or diesel generator.
As for the coal/gas... sorry, but that's a mistake... we can grow bio-diesel from pond scum, and then burn when needed, or store it up via battery/capacitor-bank. Or, we can get creative, and run DIY H2/O2 fuel cells.
cheap technology.
To get a town to buy in, I supposed you could present it as a fait accompli... "...Mr. Mayor, here's the system. It'll save the city 7% of the operating budget. The rest of the power we can sell to the utility company, and they have to buy it back."
I'll helping set up micro grids, and I encourage others to do the same.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)against the status quo and it will not happen. We will leave it till it is too late to do anything about it. I think the population is supposed to double by 2050. Just is not sustainable.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)local groups working out of specific needs and desires...
no uprisings needed (or wanted)
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)out of resources, but those in power keep squandering them on shit like weapons systems and skyscrapers with no tenants.
something wrong with this picture.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)what do you mean?
jwirr
(39,215 posts)and it still exists as a small farm. No harder work than a large farm. Our life was fulfilling, plentiful and supported a family of 5 + many neighbors who lived in town and were too old to raise their own. I see this kind of farming as a way to make sure that grid-crash does not happen as fast. Also for most of our family it has been a godsend in this time of high food prices.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Would you want the whole of the USA to live low tech, and largely just doing farming?
jwirr
(39,215 posts)workers of this nation manufactured most of the items we used in daily life. That is the world I grew up in and that is the one I think will probably be a big part of our life in the future considering global warming, oil and gas depletion, droughts, mega storms etc. I realize this does not have any answers for big cities and IMO there are few answers available for the problem of overcrowded cities.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)(though I'll miss my Miazaki animes...)
The big cities are going to be the issue. I'm meeting up with some friends this weekend, at Maker faire NYC, to talk about this...
I still wonder why some many people seem to want to live low tech, low energy, small village. (shudder)
If we have to go back to the 1940's and 1950's, I'd like to put in a request for more jazz and swing music...
jwirr
(39,215 posts)hosted. A lot of people played some kind of instrument and it was not uncommon for a band of some kind to start playing in the corner of a living room and to dance all night. Us kids often slept communally in the biggest bedroom while the party went on. Music was a central part of most of our communities. All kinds of music.
Much of what we have can be reproduced locally if we can develop local sources of energy. Some areas are doing this but I would like to see more of it - even individually produced.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I'm taking my house (and my neighbor's house, and the house across the street...) off the grid.
Solar and wind, with a backup diesel generator.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)example it sets.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I'm supposed to be an embittered and tortured mercenary inventor!
jwirr
(39,215 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) grump old curmudgeon
2.) Ben Franklin
Either way is good for me...
jwirr
(39,215 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and I look good in 18th century greatcoats...
The curmudgeon thing might be easier...
I'd only need some neighboring kids to yell at. (Unfortunately, the local kids are polite and helpful. This makes it hard to get upset.)
sendero
(28,552 posts)... are serious and cannot be answered with bumper-sticker slogans.
Nobody wants a grid crash, just like nobody want nuclear war.
The question is, how would you cope if something like that happened?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I posted the OP, o=for the purpose of finding out who wanted to live low tech and low energy.
How would I cope?
-I'm going off the grid for power, heat, and water
-my wife and I are growing our own food
-I'm a Maker. We build things
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)doing it low tech is tougher.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)i used to wonder why they said that when i was young, because i imagined little house on the prairie, where pa always had time to give love & words of wisdom to his kids. but it was more like pa's head falling into the plate at supper because he was so tired.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)We'll keep pushing for maintaining a high tech lifestyle.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)American Rocket Society...
Mind you, the jazz was Epic!
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I look pretty good in an old-style suit...
"...down these mean streets, one sorry geek must go..."
FedUpWithIt All
(4,442 posts)Off grid does not have to mean low tech. In our case, we only had two panels set up but we had use of any tech we desired, we just had to plan the usage due to our low number of panels. When we begin looking for our off-grid, version two, next year we'll have more alternative power sources. I have told you before, money and resources should be moved to transforming our way of life over to an alternative energy and high efficiency lifestyle, instead of frantically trying to make changes at the tail end of our fossil fuel, massive waste past.
We did not leave our off grid mini farm due to difficulties with the lifestyle. We loved it and miss it every single day. We left it because of location issues and a young adult daughter who lived just a little too far away.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)matter of fact, one of the reasons I am going off the grid, is to be able to build more things, w/o running up the power bill.
FedUpWithIt All
(4,442 posts)on another thread because i prefer an agrarian lifestyle. I had already pointed out to you that we use solar panels.
So you're planning to build the planet saving balloons, floating condos, methane collection units using off grid power? Can't even imagine how many solar and turbines that's gonna take.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)And I like the idea of implementing the growing balloon system. It would stop and reverse global warming, provide building materials, and it would look cool.
wtmusic
(39,166 posts)My head is spinning...
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)This is supposed to be the party year, by the Mayan calendar.
Nostrdamus had a good grift going on
Grid crash could happen... loss of fuel, loss of tie points, or EMP.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Slow food movement.... organics over GMOs... sustainable manufacturing, whether it be refurbished home appliances, or herb and vegetable indoor grow kits.
I think the concept of producing your own energy can be helpful, but the real thing we need is food in a sustainable way. The crash in the distance is the barrier many will not be able to break waiting to get food that is too expensive to buy anymore.
Plus, the agribusiness needs to come to their fucking knees.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)foods.
As for slow food, it's going to depend on what you mean. I don't have enough disposable time to spend on slow cooking.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)I out-geeked you on knowing what the "slow food movement" is.
Just think of anti-"fast food". Therefore, you go get something locally and it's grown locally, not shipped from miles away where the meat is raised in a pen under inhuman conditions, or many miles of fossil fuels used to truck it in like Burger King or McDonalds. You end up knowing where the prepared food is grown and under what conditions at your sandwich shop, or pizza business. Plus, you help local farmers. These are the things I would like to see rather than Mickey D's, Bob!
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I don't mind not knowing everything.
I ca't remember the last time I went to a mickeyD's. Not my thing... (I like my hamburgers to taste like hamburgers).
upi402
(16,854 posts)ufcking stupid
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)that's why I push for the local produced power, to form extremely robust distributed grids.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)I hope to someday have one of those small low energy, low tech farms. But, I am definitely not giddy at the thought of a grid crash. It's a shame we can't get Washington to put money into fixing and upgrading out grids.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Too many people seem to think that a low tech lifestyle is easy, noble, "better," and fun.
Yuck.
As long as someone goes into low tech farming with knowledge that it's going to be a lot of hard work, have at...
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)But I am looking forward to it. It's not for everyone.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I've family up in maine that work a low tech farm.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Rather then low tech, my aim would be low-impact tech. Meaning... How can I boost production and efficiency with a low impact on the environment and the safety and quality of what I am producing. Many people seem to feel the need to go all one way or all the other, I think with our brilliant minds in the world we can come up with alternatives.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Used by those without vision everywhere.
Meh.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)As I said...
Too many people seem to WANT Gridcrash.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... "some people say."
But of course.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I've merely asked how many want to live low tech low energy.
Please, feel free to contribute to the conversation, in phrases more than
"some people say"
I'd like your input.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Hardly. I think both technophobes and technozealots are quite similar in their black and white thinking is all. Life isn't all black or all white, it's for the most part, a multitude of grays and colors. Just because "the grid" suffers a meltdown, doesn't mean we go back to the Stone Age. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine that we can continue on the course we are on. Something has got to give. And as far as "people cheering it on"... Well my friend, there's "some people" cheering for all kinds of craziness in this World.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)1.) build up local grids. (each grid is ought to be built from a "power portfolio" idea. No one energy input should be used.)
2.) use some of the power to create fuels (ethanol, bio-diesel, hydrogen...Whatever turns you on...)
3.) use some of the power to run local factories
4.) link up the local grids into a robust and flexible national grid
5.) use existing rail lines to move bulk materials and fuel
and there you have it...
No need to lose our current living standard.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... losing our current living standards and technology isn't going to solve that much more pressing and immediate problem. Economic and political oppression (IMHO) are more likely to cause turmoil in the short term. Over the longer haul, your ideas must be addressed, in fact, they should have been decades ago.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)kentauros
(29,414 posts)10,000 years after inventing agriculture, will we 7 billion take this strange next step?
A Netherlands-based company called PlantLab has devised a method for growing plants indoors using an unearthly pink-purple light made by a combination of red and blue LED lights, instead of sunlight.
Significantly, for a sustainable future anywhere on a planet with 7 billion already – and 9 billion by century’s end – this means we could grow crops with 90 percent less water. Agriculture uses most of the water around the world.
Nowhere is this need for managing on less water more crucial than in the countries of the Middle East and Africa – from Saudi Arabia and Israel, to Yemen and the Sudan – that face the threat of real water scarcity already.
(much more at link)
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)kentauros
(29,414 posts)
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I love the idea of the enhanced grow lights.
I may have to try a few here at Casa De Geek.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)I'd like to be able to try stuff like that too, had I the room. There's all sorts of weird growing methods out there I'd like to try, including something called "electro-culture." That same site I linked has a whole section on that of oddball inventions that may increase growing and yield, not to mention one weird one that allows you to grow plants in the dark! An easily accessible shop well-stocked with tools would make trying these ideas easier
Post photos of your pink- and purple-light-grown bounty, eh?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)We live in a college town with a well established party culture.
Pink/Purple lights might be something of a coveted item, so we'd have to provide a measure of security of said lights.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)That should do it.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Plus, one of my neighboring buildings is a halfway house...
They don't need anymore nightmares.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)Try "blackout cloth" as was sometimes used at the openings to walk-in darkrooms. Keep the curious from knowing the "pretty lights" are even there
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)the folks in the halfway house brought a priest, and a cop.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)and you'll combine the complimentary colors with their opposites to make white. Problem solved
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)most folks are scared to enter the house, without permission.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)with "illicit" growing rooms
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I'm Learning Disabled, and I learned about 30 years ago that I'm effectively retarded, on certain substances.
On the other hand, it gives me more money for parts and books.
(I'm compiling a new master list of books to read, largely to get the taste of "graduate humanities" out of my mind. So far, the list is running at 2000 bux)
kentauros
(29,414 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)A few years back, they sent me a christmas card.
I think I have something on the close order of half their standing stock. (My wife and I have so many books, here in Casa De Geek, that our homeowner's policy won't cover the books...)
kentauros
(29,414 posts)switch many as I can to ebook format. Partly so I would read them and also to be able to find them! Pocket Ref needs an ebook version, but they haven't produced one yet (that I've seen.) No such luck, either on Lindsay's books, either, which is too bad, as I'd like to read more of their books, even if I don't have a shop.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and that's not including the magazines, maps, charts, blueprints, or papers.
I figure my wife and I have enough books to jumpstart civilization.
We've a few gaps... no philosophy, and I'll be ritually setting fire to my critical theory books, come june.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)Well, it's not a philosophy site, but it's close: Internet Sacred Text Archive
Maybe in the future if you have to recycle your books, you could build a heavily-insulated house out of them
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I have little time for philosophy. My wife usually says drugs are cheaper and safer to use, in comparison to philosophy.
I figure a few more years, and we'll have a decent number (we already have about 1/3 of some of the local junior colleges, in terms of volumes. ) For fun, we have students over, for tea and readings.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)Add a copier/scanner, and you could make it into a reference-only (no lending) local library
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)not a bad idea! Most of the libraries around here had to cut their hours.
(when I originally asked about suggestions to protect the library, my insurance company suggested fire extinguishers, heavy duty dead bolts, a shot gun, and a pitbull/mastiff hybrid on each floor.)
kentauros
(29,414 posts)I'm surprised they didn't suggest a nitrogen extinguisher system, as that would preserve the books while extinguishing both the fire and the intruders
Okay, plenty of ideas for you to play with (like this one - Intermittent Absorption Refrigeration) while I head off to almost bed.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)As for the intruders, I borrowed a page from Machiavelli...
I showed my neighbors what we've got, and how it could help fix problems...
My neighbors have taken to keeping m place safe (though we had a touchy moment when a buddy of mine came down from Boston. My neighbors didn't know him. Said neighbors had started converging on him... could have gone bad...)
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)kentauros
(29,414 posts)though that doesn't really help those that want to set up a food-growing business, unless those same pot-growers are publishing their findings in journals and such
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)Had a discussion with some locals yesterday about the businesses some have started up in this very poor county. "Agri-tourism" etc. We LIKE the idea that these people come, spend their money and GO AWAY.
I certainly don't want a bunch of yahoos wandering around wondering where the WalMart and Best Buy are located, and driving like city people (why do people come to the mountains for peace and quiet yet drive like they are on a NASCAR track? Do you REALLY have to get to your campsite/hiking trail/gallery 1.42 minutes faster? Do you HAVE to ride my ass on MY local roads because you are a frantic, panicky, ME ME ME ME ME first kind of asshole even when you're on vacation? )
I live way lo-tech and don't hate it, but would love a few more labor-saving devices in my life. However, I do admit that I have an extreme prejudice against most Americans. They will buy AIR if it's in a pretty package and has a great commercial. Even when they find out that the "air" they bought in such a cool -looking wrapper was sucked out of the lungs of baby dolphins who were left to die.
"Dead baby dolphins? So what? I can't worry my pretty little head about that. Off to go shopping!"
Americans wrap themselves in materialistic shit to feel secure, loved, like "somebody" and it's really brutally sad. Because we now have over 40,000 storage facilities to put all the crap, not to mention all the crap smothering in landfills. I worked this year for a grower at Big Box stores, and they throw so much stuff away at these stores, you just would not believe it.
I saw entire cabinets, cases of oil, tiles, plumbing fixtures, scrap wood, furniture, metal of all types, tiolets, sinks, wiring, lawn and garen supplies, etc. just tossed in the maw of the locked grinder inside the store. Half my job was throwing away thousands of dollars of plant material EVERY WEEK. Into the grinder. Can't share it, can't give it away. GOTTA THROW IT OUT.
If the grid fails, and I do not wish this to happen, it will be because of waste like this. Wasted resources gathering materials, manufacturing products, transporting said products, placing them on shelves only to be THROWN OUT in a landfill. Just as we have a glut of empty homes and millions of homeless people. Huh? America cannot seem to make good use of its resources.
We're a stupid society. How it will all turn out, who knows. But, no, I don't want a bunch of wasteful Americans showing up in peaceful rural country and bringing all their useless baggage with them.
I'm very, very fed up with American culture, but stay in your cities and subdivisions PLEASE.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)Is there a point to your question?
No.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)back to the original question...
Do you want to live on a low tech, low energy farm?
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)and all I seemed to take away were a lot of disjointed thoughts and random assumptions and general kvetching about some alleged DUers who are waiting for the grid to collapse thrown in with some farming techniques, soil science and more kvetching about DUers who want everyone to live on a low tech, low energy farm
So I figured I would go for it, too
What the hell a kvetch is a kvetch, non?
Guess you had a point, too. But I missed it completely
( Had a dinner date or would have replied sooner. )
Peace
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I was teaching a class.
I was kvetching about the apparent number of back to the dark ages types. I was curious how many folks who held those beliefs would be willing to come forward.
As to your apparent belief that I'm showing disjointed thoughts... That's your perspective.
The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)Then I can finally cash in on my herds of gerbster.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)and maybe better fashion sense...
snooper2
(30,151 posts)maybe continue education so more and more people go organic, no more bullshit labels on partially organic--
push for local grown, have cities give incentives and public projects?
as well as my packged cheap pork chops
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)but there seems to be a plethora of back to the dark ages types running around...
Response to a geek named Bob (Original post)
littlemissmartypants This message was self-deleted by its author.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)what about a wind powered battery hook-up, that provides power for the baby-chick lights?
How much power do the baby chicks need?
quaker bill
(8,264 posts)but I would take one personally, particulary if you can grow peaches on it, I love peaches.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)of people to work.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)It may be coming, and sooner than you think.
Try 2020...
I don't even think you'll be ready for it, bob. You're too busy seeing the world through your wishes and dreams.
Are we on the cusp of global collapse?
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)You could have just stopped your post with "I don't even think..."
From the variety of posts you and I have been passing around, you seem to have some sort of trouble with math.
Where are my figures wrong?
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)I hold a degree in computer science, and designed real time firmware for 20 years. My math skills are just fine, TYVM.
The problem between us, as I see it, is that you don't recognize that the problem humanity faces is not one of mathematics and technology, but one of complex systems theory and human nature - neither of which yield to simple one-pointed technical solutions. It doesn't matter if your math is right or wrong. It's simply irrelevant to the problem.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I guess you'll be sitting there laughing, while others actually fix the problem.
Let me guess, you've read The Long Emergency by Kunstler...
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)There is a lot out there to know about what's going on. Don't waste your time with Kunstler's childish rants. He's not the one to read to get a handle on the problem.
I'd recommend starting with Chris Martenson's video Crash Course. Then move on to Joseph Tainter's academic book "The Collapse of Complex Societies", and William Catton's book "Overshoot". Then try on John Michael Greer's theory of catabolic collapse.
Or you could just keep jeering - it's easier.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)As my wife works in a library, we might be able to pick up copies.
I'm always going to try and fix problems.
Going with the flow only leads to the ocean, or the waterfall.
And yes, I will continue to jeer at your philosophy...
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)we can harvest and use.
Losing a high energy civilization probably won't kill us. But it will bring back all the unsavory parts of the middle ages.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)There seems to be a rather - in my opinion - unsavory current in liberal groups that earnestly desires gridcrash.
I guess every civilization has barbarians to deal with.
drthais
(872 posts)then best be prepared to get down and dirty.
Because farming is very hard work.
We run a CSA every year, and last season we had 43 families.
All of whom were willing to jump in with both feet.
We've been doing this for many, many years.
It's kind of like voting
If you want to express an opinion about farming
then get in there and learn what it is about.
Low tech is great. Low energy is great. It takes People . And hard work.
a geek named Bob
(2,715 posts)I Don't like the idea of low tech farming.
My wife and I farm a small victory garden, and we help out at a local CSA.
I have seen too many people apparently hoping for Gridcrash, which I think would absolutely suck.