General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPenis size as the most common metaphor for male insecurity
The supposed connection is fairly obvious, and sometimes it's probably even accurate: Our culture obviously values penis size, a man feels insecure because he has a small penis, and therefore he "compensates" by buying flashy sports cars, loud motorcycles, or maybe big guns. On top of that he might throw in a big dose of misogyny, and/or just being a generally obnoxious asshole.
Then again, half the male population is going to be under average size (well, to be technical, below the median size). And with our cultural emphasis on penis size, even average probably doesn't feel like quite enough for many men.
And a lot of these guys aren't going to be jerks. They won't wave weapons around, they'll drive fuel efficient cars, and they'll even manage to be polite and friendly most of the time.
I've got to think that many of these nice guys, however, still feel pangs of insecurity and shame when they constantly hear "tiny dick" or "micropenis" voiced with a snicker, or growled out with a sneer, brimming with loathing and contempt.
Is it enough to say, "Oh, well, if you're a good guy with a small penis, we don't mean you!"?
I'm not a big one on excessive policing of language -- that does sometimes go too far -- but might it not be a good idea to distance ourselves from this common trope?
Nexus2
(1,261 posts)can't change.
Silent3
(15,206 posts)...have a verbal or psychological power that substitute language wouldn't have. It's as if trying to be fair at the same time you want to be derisive (even when the derision is well deserved!) defangs what you're trying to say.
I have an ex-girlfriend whom I now loathe. In my mind, I can't help but think, "that bitch!". But I've never said that aloud about her, to her or to anyone else. If I were a drinker (which I'm not) I have to wonder if "bitch" would slip out of my mouth in reference to her after one too many drinks?
I've tried to convince myself to think of her using essentially gender-neutral "asshole", but it's hard to let go of "asshole" being for guys, and "bitch" being for women.
I have at least made the move to stifle what my mind still can't help but think, however, trying my best to banish sexism from my language.
I'll bet a lot of people, even if they know this penis-size shaming is unfair, and that it hurts people who don't deserve to be hurt by it, just won't want to give up the visceral impact they get out of sneering and laughing at small penises.
ProudMNDemocrat
(16,784 posts)"Just enough to rock the monkey in the boat."
Silent3
(15,206 posts)...because I think trying not to be secretive about it was his manner of compensation. But it clearly was compensation, not just idle chit chat, and you could tell he'd have definitely been happier to be bigger.
dawg day
(7,947 posts)I keep blocking it, and it just comes under a different address the next time.
So I decided to keep track of what the headlines are, and what they appeal to in their presumably target audience of men.
There's a lot of "cuckold" metaphors-- "What if you find your wife's sending naked pics?"
"I caught my wife looking at naked men on a porn site."
You know, wife's disappointed because he can't get hard, and who can blame her for cheating on him?
And then there's a weird fixation on "feminists"--
"This makes feminists so angry!"
"Feminists will hate you for this!"
That is, take this pill and get hard because feminists hate hard.
And boy, the 92-year-old studs! With these, it's all about "impregnating." ick. "This 92-year-old man took this supplement, and impregnated four young women!"
There's one company that advertises to "Christian men who want to satisfy their wives." And the picture was-- literally- a woman in a bikini and shackles, and a black African "tribesman" in a loincloth next to her. That gets racism, sexism, and the Jerry Falwell, Jr., desire to be cuckholded all in one photo!
It's all very strange and twisted, and I get a big sense of what makes guys insecure.
Hekate
(90,648 posts)It really and truly starts with men competing with other men, not with women. Plus biologically theyve been gifted with a piece of their anatomy that seems to have a mind of its own and that grows and shrinks. If you're going to be insecure, you might start worrying that it just might shrink all the way and disappear.
dawg day
(7,947 posts)tblue37
(65,336 posts)Silent3
(15,206 posts)...but in the case of penis size, it's obvious which of the two has a whole lot more cultural and psychological impact.
Dagstead Bumwood
(3,625 posts)As a veteran of locker rooms, be it school or later in life at a health clubs, and seeing myself naked each day, I've seen my share of, to be scientific here, wee-wees. And, my anecdotal experience would suggest that a lot more guys are average. But, if you believe what you read online and see/hear in pop culture, then most men are John Holmes-size and anyone who isn't is therefore deficient and worthy of ridicule. So, I feel sorry for the ones who aren't jerks and yet choose to spend $$$ supporting the snakeoil "enhancement" industry. The jerks, not so much.
SlogginThroughIt
(1,977 posts)Is there any scientific data to support that any of this is anything other than a sophomoric response? And if it were true that penis size drives the purchase of said items the would t ridiculing men about this supposed issue drive them to be more likely to buy those items? In my view it seems to be both sophomoric and self defeating.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)...would be alerted on and banned on DU. For good reason.
Silent3
(15,206 posts)I have a vague memory from my childhood, probably during the early 70s, of my mother talking to some other women about a woman they all mutually knew. While I don't remember the exact words anymore, they definitely spoke of this other woman in a dismissive and scornful way for her small breasts.
Obviously there's still some cultural pressure that bigger is better for breasts, but other than this distant memory, I don't think I've heard of breast size being tied to personality or motivation the way penis size is now routinely employed.
And you're right, if this did happen on DU with women and breast size, it would indeed be alerted and banned immediately.
Nexus2
(1,261 posts)I've heard women/girls mock others for their small breasts in the past, but as often these days or since it was mostly in Jr high and High school maybe its more of adolescent thing?
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Not since high-school, anyway. Most adult women simply aren't that childish about things like that. How petty and ridiculous. I'm not sure what the issue was with your mother and her friends, but I have been around adult women for a while now and have never heard of such a thing.
tavernier
(12,381 posts)Ive heard plenty of mocking of women with boob jobs... oddly mostly from men.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Look at all the jokes about the "kidney implants".
Women with smaller breasts look much better in clothes, which is why I think most other women don't mock them. As you can see with Melania and Ivanka, they tend to look a bit more "matronly" with larger breasts in clothing.
I know it's something men might like, but I think most women admire a slimmer, less busty look. We don't consider it a measure of our femininity the way men do with their organs.
Chainfire
(17,531 posts)I remember when getting a physical for the draft, in a room full of hundreds of naked men all lined up for "short arm" inspection, the anxiety of "not measuring up." Of course with anxiety, it is a self fulfilling fear and I probably looked like a frightened turtle. Other than that, and some similar instance while in the service, I never really thought about it, and in fact, I have never bothered to find out what "average" is. I have always lived a low key life and not been flashy, so maybe I never had anything to worry about. I do know I have been around some folks that do think that it is a very serious issue.
William Manchester has an amusing anecdote about the size of genitalia in the book Goodbye Darkness (if I remember correctly) To paraphrase what I remember, he starts the story off with, "For better or worse, I happen to be someone either blessed or cursed with oversize genitalia..." and he goes on to tell a story about standing at a urinal next to a peeking tom soldier. I have no idea if Manchester was a more confident person because of his anatomy.
Going a little off topic, but another amusing draft physical story, is this: In the late 60s, gays were not welcome in the service, and it was required that draftees (or volunteers I guess) be asked directly if they were homosexuals. I recall the poor man that had to ask me, found the question so objectionable, that he just couldn't get it out, and he beat all over the bush about it. Since I had a little attitude about having to be there anyway, I let him squirm in the wind, before finally assuring him that I liked girls, to his obvious relief.
LuckyCharms
(17,425 posts)of EVERYTHING is a cause (not a metaphor) for insecurity felt by ALL genders.
Dick is too small.
Ass is too big.
Has no ass.
Skinny arms.
Don't like overly muscular arms.
His feet are so small.
Her feet are too big.
Big nose.
Big gut.
Big teeth.
He's too short.
She's too tall.
Breasts are too small.
Breasts are too big.
Thighs are too big.
Has chicken legs.
Ego is too big.
Not enough confidence.
etc.
Size, size, size.
Silent3
(15,206 posts)...than any of these other size-isms. Most of these other things are limited to being aesthetic judgments. We all have body types and bodily features we like and don't like. Not that these things should be used for shaming other people, of course, but I certainly don't expect people to purge themselves of every last anatomical aesthetic and erotic preference.
Weight shaming comes a bit closer to how penis size shaming is used, because it's often associated with one's degree of self control and self discipline, beyond being an aesthetic matter.
Penis size, however, is strongly tied to the supposed motivation behind bad actions, and used as an explanation for nasty personalities.
Nevilledog
(51,080 posts)*snicker*
LuckyCharms
(17,425 posts)Nevilledog
(51,080 posts)LuckyCharms
(17,425 posts)Nevilledog
(51,080 posts)LuckyCharms
(17,425 posts)Maraya1969
(22,478 posts)I watched a video of a deposition and the first question the opposing attorney said to him was, "Is it true your penis is shaped like an egg?"
So of course I had to look it up.
He did it to "Rattle" Epstein
"Kuvin said his team hired a psychologist to give them a profile on Epstein. The psychologist determined that he was a narcissist who valued his self-image more than anything else.
What I wanted to do was figure out the best way to rattle him, Kuvin told Oxygen.com, adding that he already knew that Epstein was going to assert his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Epstein can be seen pleading the Fifth in multiple deposition footage included in Netflixs recent docuseries "Jeffrey Epstein: Filthy Rich.
The first time I heard this I looked it up and found some abnormal drawing of penises that kind of looked like eggs but I can't find them now - since his death everyone and their mother must have been looking it up and all sorts of nonsense is posted.
Throck
(2,520 posts)Statistically speaking.
question everything
(47,471 posts)And then, I used to watch the program Chicago Hope with the wonderful Christine Lahti as a brilliant surgeon.
In one episode she was ready to operate on a man and she blurted: this is the smallest penis I have ever seen. And a nurse commented that it looked like a button on a fur coat..
And, the poor patient could hear all of this. One of the miscalculation of anesthesia , I suppose.
msongs
(67,395 posts)Nexus2
(1,261 posts)How did it turn out if it was more than just a gag. It relates back to the OP too. Where they Dr and nurse presented as mean spirited and jerks for saying (like how some dudes commenting on a patients tiny breasts) or again was just a gag (as it was in Teeth)?
question everything
(47,471 posts)I think that this is common knowledge that people in the OR free wheeling. I think that they were just taken back with the small size..
Nexus2
(1,261 posts)What did you mean by "people in the OR freewheeling"?
As for the situation, it was used as part of the plot? Interesting as, IME, that sort of thing is usually presented for laughs and not followed through or as having any repercussions.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,849 posts)are confident they are well endowed. Even when they are not.
I'm speaking as a woman who had a lot of experience in my younger days.
EX500rider
(10,839 posts)Silent3
(15,206 posts)It's not like the statistics are common knowledge. Watching porn isn't going to tell you what's average, that's for sure.
Even being in a locker room with a bunch of naked men, who most likely are not erect at the time, and who would be uncomfortable about you taking a careful visual study of comparative anatomy, isn't going to give you a good sense of average either.
Nexus2
(1,261 posts)I had a friend who was convinced porn showed the typical man. He was quietly disappointed with his first boyfriend.
But I recalled reading an account of how a Victorian husband was gobsmacked to see his new bride had pubic hair (unlike the statues and paintings) on their wedding night so its not a strictly modern thing.
LuckyCharms
(17,425 posts)Sometimes, they purposely pair a man with a partner who has a smaller hand size. So when the hand is near the penis, the penis looks larger.
Also, if you check out the weird camera angles they sometimes use, they can make an average penis look huge.
It's all part of the porn illusion. By illusion, I mean...nobody really has sex like they do in porn. And when men especially try to have "porn sex" in real life, it isn't especially satisfying for their partner.
Not that I watch porn or anything, I just read the articles.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Silent3
(15,206 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Silent3
(15,206 posts)And you're therefore not as progressive in your thinking as you'd probably like to imagine.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)My reaction was clearly a response to the post. I didn't say anything negative about you. What makes you believe that you have the right to say things like that about me?
Silent3
(15,206 posts)...little
If you think you should be taken differently, then spell out what you mean. If you openly invite mind-reading acts, you get what you get.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)The shortcut to insert it is spelled :hi: ... it's got "HI" right in there!
I recommended taking it at face value... it was a mistake for anyone to look for some nefarious or "smug" hidden meaning.
Silent3
(15,206 posts)I don't care if the word that goes with this smiley is "hi", it's commonly used in a smug manner. That you use it yet again, while clearly not happy with how I responded to your post, belies any intention of using as a friendly, cheerful, welcoming wave.
Silent3
(15,206 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)MineralMan
(146,287 posts)Hekate
(90,648 posts)This is a man-on-man problem, I guarantee. And the OP is going to beat it to death. He cant seem to let go of the topic.
Women get trained from an early age to treat the topic with the utmost sensitivity, lest they get a reputation as a psychologically-emasculating woman, apparently the most dreaded she-monster in the universe.
MineralMan
(146,287 posts)Since we pretty much all habitually wear clothes, most people have no idea about such a thing with regard to most men.
I was in high school from 1959 to 1963, I was part of a generation that had daily showers in open shower areas in gym class. The girls had the same arrangement for PE class showers, and they were mandatory.
I don't actually remember any comparing of genital size in my four years of open showers. Nor did I detect any particular comparisons being made in my four years in the USAF, most of which were spent in barracks with communal showers.
What I do remember is that it provided an education about the wide range of anatomical differences in all areas, and a dulling of concern about such variations, at least on the part of most of the people I knew.
I also had girlfriends, who also observed differences among the girls in their communal showers, but it never seemed to be a topic of conversation, nor of shaming kinds of comparisons.
I just don't remember any of that really mattering all that much. Maybe that was a result of daily exposure to differences in bodies while doing that communal showering.
Silent3
(15,206 posts)No one ever talks about a small penis as something to be proud of, only at best as a neutral thing, and much more commonly as a matter of shame and scorn.
MineralMan
(146,287 posts)at all, frankly. The references to firearms and huge pickups is sort of a natural kind of way of making fun of people who make a fetish of them. It's a, you know, joke. Nobody's actual comparing anyone's penis sizes. Nobody knows, quite frankly, unless a guy is a willy waggler or something like that.
Are firearms and large truck owners people with small genitals? Probably not. But I don't know. I have no way to tell. Do you?
Nexus2
(1,261 posts)But the worlds a big and varied place.
Silent3
(15,206 posts)...connecting some Republican assholery to penis size. Here's one example:
Ladies, true or false. The size of a mans flag is the inverse proportion of a man penis.
Here's another such post: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=14000036
I'm searching for other examples (of which I've seen plenty) before, but DU's search function keeps timing out for some reason.
But this is such a common cultural phenomenon, I'm kind of surprise I need to dig up examples to make my point. It's almost like I'd said something about Trump being described as orange, and you ask "Who calls him orange?"
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Honestly, I'm not sure what to make of the OP, but it's obviously a subject matter has been given a lot of thought, and even though the premise is flawed, I guess some give more importance to personal matters like this. Personally speaking, it's just not something that I fixate on.
MineralMan
(146,287 posts)I rarely feel insulted, regardless of what anyone says.
I understand what the OP is attempting to assert, but I disagree with the assertion.
My life experience has taught me that the size issue is one of no real significance. Anywhere it is of significance is a place not worth being, it seems to me.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)MineralMan
(146,287 posts)These days, though, with amateur porn replacing professional porn, I'd guess that size probably isn't a big deal so much any more. I don't know, though.
I don't watch porn because so much of it is misogynistic male dominance stuff. Not my thing.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... that could certainly explain why some individuals feel inadequate (regardless of gender or physical attributes). That's the point that I was trying to make.
MineralMan
(146,287 posts)What concerns me more is that porn is now instantly available on the internet without any cost and without regard to the age of the viewers. Had the internet existed when I was 13 or 14, I probably would have visited porn sites frequently. It was not, though.
Most porn that I have seen, however, takes a very male dominant perspective and magnifies that even more. I suspect that many kids are getting a very distorted view of how sex really happens in real life. That is worrisome.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)elias7
(3,997 posts)How does our culture obviously value penis size? Where are you seeing this?
Is not really true or documented or proven that people compensate for their small penises by buying flashy sports cars, loud motorcycles or big guns? Or is this just a stereotype or presumed motivation.
I do not see where people are going to be in a setting where they "constantly here 'tiny dick' or 'micropenis' voiced with a snicker or growled out with contempt." Where do you live? I'm not sure that is a thing.
When you say we should distance ourselves from this common trope, are you referring to anything in particular? Is it some of the jokes about Donald Trump and his phallus size that are offending you? Or is this referring to something else?
fishwax
(29,149 posts)I also think the whole compensating for a small penis thing feeds into misogynistic social conventions (whereby smaller penis >> less masculine >> less valuable).
And I don't think there's anything to it as far as accuracy goes.
That said, I do think there are bigger fish to fry and so while I avoid employing it myself, calling it out in a public forum isn't a battle that I've seen fit to start. But you did, and that's cool, so I'm adding my two cents, such as it's worth.
Silent3
(15,206 posts)I've always considered the "bigger fish to fry" argument a bit disingenuous... not the way you're using it, of course. If you want to focus on "bigger fish" yourself, that's fine with me.
But when people respond with the attitude that anyone who isn't frying the bigger fish shouldn't even get near the smaller fish, or must have some unwholesome agenda because they aren't focusing only on the bigger fish, that's what pisses me off.
fishwax
(29,149 posts)I just meant for me personally, I've not invested my energy on waging this particular point. Not so much bigger fish, I guess, as plenty of other small fish, and I've only got so much time and energy to devote to posting, lol.
But I appreciate that you did, and gave me an easy enough way to add my thoughts.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)safeinOhio
(32,674 posts)Micro Penis. Google it.
Had a friend in HS that suffered from it and even had a note from his doctor to be excuse from PE. Tall very smart guy. I didnt find out about it until years later.
I think any insult about penis size should be banned here. Sexism is sexism.
I think it's absurd that some people even seem to be reacting to this thread with a "What are you talking about? I don't see that happening!" tone.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)It's just never been important to me.
Silent3
(15,206 posts)My OP addresses a commonly used trope, here on DU and elsewhere in many conversations and posts. If you deny the trope is common, then flatly say that instead of being coy. But now, of course, you'll just continue with the passive-aggressive trolling technique of not really saying anything or adding anything, then laugh smugly or express faux-rage at your nothingness being misinterpreted.
lame54
(35,285 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Response to NurseJackie (Reply #58)
Post removed
Nexus2
(1,261 posts)But because it hasn't doesn;t mean it doesn't exist or doesn't matter. I haven't been teased about having small breasts and I wouldn't particularly care if some called me short or flat assed, or fat, but that doesn't mean it never happens or that I should dismiss the idea that happens to others, espeically when several others have talked about it.
I guess unless I have some solid reason to question their veracity.
dawg
(10,624 posts)to younger men who are still full of doubts, worries, and insecurities. As somone else posted, half of them are below the median penis size. Not all of them will be able to keep receiving this sort of message from society, again and again, and still be able to just laugh and take it in stride. It'd be great if all men developed a mature sense of self-confidence and perspective the day they hit their eighteenth birthday, but it takes a lot longer for most of us. (And some of us never get there.)
Besides, most of those "tough-guy" Trumpers aren't trying to compensate for their penises. They are trying to compensate for the fact that they are increasingly being left behind in a world that no longer puts as much of a premium on being white and male, and they must now struggle harder than ever just to hang-on to the same level of status that was once accorded to their fathers as a birthright.
CTyankee
(63,903 posts)As an art historian, I am pretty unfazed. It's all out there a lot even in churches so this thread has me wondering what is the big deal?
I guess context is everything.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,327 posts)own guns?
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Nailed it.
Hekate
(90,648 posts)I dont think most women actually care, even if we do join in penis-gun mockery from time to time.
tavernier
(12,381 posts)but I think there is a definite racism connection in the penis size controversy. And you all know what Im talking about.
GusBob
(7,286 posts)Not to make light of a dreadful criminal but that serial rapist in Calif. who was just convicted to life in prison:
His victims in giving his description to the police described his stuff as small, and the police actually put that information out in public
I always wondered if that humiliated him or maybe made him more vengeful
I reckon his cell mates are coming up with cruel nicknames for him now