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Hekate

(90,645 posts)
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 03:28 AM Sep 2020

Mea Culpa. I take back everything I said in defense of Bob Woodward on Wednesday...

Thanks to Charlie Pierce, who wrote this:

snip

Pause for a moment and gaze in awe at what happens when two towering careerists collide.

Let us be clear. Both of these men knew before anyone else that the president* was lying in public about the most serious public health crisis in a century. Both of these men knew before anyone else how serious that threat was, and how deadly the disease could be. Both of these men knew before anyone else that a potential disaster was not only possible, but increasingly likely. BOTH OF THESE MEN KNEW! The president* knew and lied because he wanted to get re-elected. Woodward knew and kept it to himself because he had a book to sell. Who’s worse? Far too measured a choice for this reporter, but, as someone who in his own small way practices the same craft as Bob Woodward, I have to wonder how Woodward watched the president* lie for six months as the body count ratcheted skyward without his conscience tearing out his heart. I have to wonder if, in some small way, journalism as public service died as collateral damage in that struggle.

And, please, for the love of god, don’t buy any crapola out of Woodward that may be coming soon from the high road he’s built to reach the limits of his enormous ego.

snip

The interviews with the president* were conducted on the record. As early as January, Woodward could have broken a huge story quoting the president* himself about how the president* was lying to the public and risking the public health. Maybe it would have forced a change of policy that would have saved lives. (Probably not, given what we know about this president*’s modus operandi.) Woodward knew the truth behind the administration*’s deadly bungling—and worse—and he saved it for his book, which will be released to wild acclaim and huge profits after nearly 200,000 Americans have died because neither Donald Trump nor Bob Woodward wanted to risk anything substantial to keep the country informed.

I really don’t give a flying fck at a rolling doughnut about anything else in Woodward’s book except that simple fact. We all figured out without his help that Camp Runamuck was full of cowards and sycophants willing to put their reputations through the shredder to serve an addled and criminal presidency*. The Bitter Tears of Dan Coats doesn’t interest me as drama in the least. We all figured out early on that Jared Kushner was a jumped-up putz. That, in far closer contact, Jim Mattis figured that out, too, doesn’t impress me overmuch.

For reasons of their own—venal, selfish, inexcusable reasons, all of them—both Donald Trump and Bob Woodward shirked the duties of their respective occupations and, eventually, hundreds of thousands of Americans may be dead in part because they did. The shame of this should be everlasting. Bob Woodward’s nonfeasance in the face of this disaster should stand with Walter Duranty’s covering for Stalin in the matter of the Ukrainian famine as eternal embarrassments to journalism and to simple humanity. Nobody, as the bumper stickers used to say, ever died at Watergate.



https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a33969935/bob-woodward-trump-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR1FjnnRyAs6ODGw_o3OVanWLBa3_nXUM5Inji7pXS24Bm40T-3DtPavpks





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Mea Culpa. I take back everything I said in defense of Bob Woodward on Wednesday... (Original Post) Hekate Sep 2020 OP
Self-kick Hekate Sep 2020 #1
Woodward outed himself this time KT2000 Sep 2020 #2
I'm not sure if there would have been any difference even if he came out earlier JI7 Sep 2020 #3
That's my thinking as well, and it's like that moral dilemma of a Photo Journalist taking a picture OnDoutside Sep 2020 #6
hardly the same Skittles Sep 2020 #57
nonsense Skittles Sep 2020 #9
all governors were being pushed to reopen. with that story out, in trump's own words, it certainot Sep 2020 #19
+1. BeckyDem Sep 2020 #43
Sorry, but that is rationalization for a heinous act. There is no way of knowing Maru Kitteh Sep 2020 #40
Many doctors disagree Tribetime Sep 2020 #64
Perhaps it wouldn't have made any difference PoindexterOglethorpe Sep 2020 #4
THIS malaise Sep 2020 #21
That's exactly my thought PO ... mr_lebowski Sep 2020 #45
It definitely would have saved lives Tribetime Sep 2020 #65
I'm sorry, but no. One man doesn't get to make that decision in a democracy Bucky Sep 2020 #66
This treats COVID 19 as a political tool. Ms. Toad Sep 2020 #67
Good piece. Thanks for sharing this, Hekate! n/t pnwmom Sep 2020 #5
The problem is that even with what they were doing, Trump got fed up with it interfering with his OnDoutside Sep 2020 #7
This message was self-deleted by its author Skittles Sep 2020 #8
Thank you, Hekate. Judi Lynn Sep 2020 #10
I love Pierce but completely disagree with his thesis here ... mr_lebowski Sep 2020 #11
Precisely Sherman A1 Sep 2020 #14
Really? druidity33 Sep 2020 #16
Nope ... I think you're forgetting how many people were already saying he's playing down mr_lebowski Sep 2020 #61
I don't disagree about Woodward. Just like Bolton and Cohen, he held back 50 Shades Of Blue Sep 2020 #12
I sadly agree, gab13by13 Sep 2020 #15
Thank you for posting this - I missed Charlie Pierce yesterday. GoneOffShore Sep 2020 #13
Woodward did not know last spring what the summer of 2020 would look like... Sancho Sep 2020 #17
it maximizes his sales Skittles Sep 2020 #58
I don't think Woodward cares about sales...he has plenty of work and money... Sancho Sep 2020 #62
There was never going to be a coordinated federal response DeminPennswoods Sep 2020 #18
I understand some of the anger directed at Woodward BannonsLiver Sep 2020 #30
Duty to act/report is in no way dependent on status. Asking everyone to be "on the level of an Maru Kitteh Sep 2020 #44
It wasn't a secret solely between Trump and Woodward DeminPennswoods Sep 2020 #53
I don't agree at all BannonsLiver Sep 2020 #54
Where did you see me say "it would have changed everything?" I didn't. Maru Kitteh Sep 2020 #59
whenever i see woodward, i just think of how his character was played in 'DICK'. pansypoo53219 Sep 2020 #20
I love that movie Poiuyt Sep 2020 #42
whenever i see woodward, i just think of how his character was played in 'DICK'. pansypoo53219 Sep 2020 #22
despite Woodworks motives.... quickesst Sep 2020 #23
Lots of strategic analysis here genxlib Sep 2020 #24
What would have changed in your estimation, if Woodward had "told"? CTyankee Sep 2020 #46
I don't know what the effect would have been genxlib Sep 2020 #51
The thing is -- and I may be wrong here -- "everybody" knew he knew...the pukes knew but CTyankee Sep 2020 #52
I think it is easy to overestimate how close people pay attention genxlib Sep 2020 #56
Accomplice to murder? lark Sep 2020 #25
Yes, they are both venal... Spazito Sep 2020 #26
I stand before you vindicated. n/t Hugin Sep 2020 #27
The snippet from this excellent post that captures it for me gratuitous Sep 2020 #28
More deflecting and giving Trump a pass. Let's just admit liberals suck at politics. Drunken Irishman Sep 2020 #29
Well the good news is in the real world it's not really being covered that way BannonsLiver Sep 2020 #31
They're smarter than liberals. Drunken Irishman Sep 2020 #38
Yes BannonsLiver Sep 2020 #39
Completely terrible argument. Happy Hoosier Sep 2020 #32
I understand. I'm conflicted. But given we're where we are today nolabear Sep 2020 #33
I thought DU was the safest place to express my anger toward Woodward Greybnk48 Sep 2020 #47
Sorry about the attacks. It's weird sometimes. nolabear Sep 2020 #55
Sometimes the shoe fits BannonsLiver Sep 2020 #70
hard to believe.... quickesst Sep 2020 #34
yesterday evening on progressive XM radio GusBob Sep 2020 #35
This is a learning experience for all journalists and anyone who Baitball Blogger Sep 2020 #36
Only one of them was President of the United States Tom Rinaldo Sep 2020 #37
Why all the criticism? notinkansas Sep 2020 #41
Our experts continued to tell us that we didn't really need masks Greybnk48 Sep 2020 #48
So of course now that they know, Trump supporters are going to put their masks on correctly? LisaL Sep 2020 #50
That's exactly true. But not in the way you are saying. Greybnk48 Sep 2020 #60
He was very likely contractually forbidden by his publisher from disclosing details from the book markpkessinger Sep 2020 #49
so called "journalists" like woodward make me regret ihas2stinkyfeet Sep 2020 #63
I honestly cannot believe people are wasting their time blaming Bob Woodward DonaldsRump Sep 2020 #68
There's no telling whether Bob Woodward could have made a difference had he spoken out sooner. crickets Sep 2020 #69
We knew all along because it wasn't a secret. tavernier Sep 2020 #71
Good point DonaldsRump Sep 2020 #72

KT2000

(20,576 posts)
2. Woodward outed himself this time
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 04:11 AM
Sep 2020

He was always coy enough to keep himself on a high perch but not this time. Yes - his ego made him release his book at the most opportune time for book sales. The dying people while he withheld this information only contributed to his sense of self importance. He is truly disgusting.

JI7

(89,247 posts)
3. I'm not sure if there would have been any difference even if he came out earlier
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 04:17 AM
Sep 2020

As Long as Trump is in office we are going to keep heading towards disaster .

OnDoutside

(19,953 posts)
6. That's my thinking as well, and it's like that moral dilemma of a Photo Journalist taking a picture
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 04:37 AM
Sep 2020

of a shocking event - does he put his camera down, and get involved, or record the event.

Skittles

(153,150 posts)
57. hardly the same
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 02:21 PM
Sep 2020

this was "timed" to come out weeks before a presidential election, knowing thousands of Americans were dying, for MONEY - there's nothing moral about that

Skittles

(153,150 posts)
9. nonsense
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 05:01 AM
Sep 2020

if this had been known in February, repuke governors may have reacted differently than they did.....I doubt they would have pulled off their OPEN UP EARLY bullshit

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
19. all governors were being pushed to reopen. with that story out, in trump's own words, it
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 06:52 AM
Sep 2020

would have been a lot harder to create the 're-open!' buzz all over the country. even dem governors heard the buzz from 'business leaders' etc

they weaponized a pandemic like they did with the 2014 ebola 'october surprise' that got them the house and 9 senate seats

a few hundred talk radio blowhards all over the country took limbaugh's lead (from his golf partner trump, 'lord' conrad black and breitbart (kremlim/putin), calling it a hoax created by democrats to bring trump down

feb 24 “weaponized as yet another element to bring down Donald Trump”

feb 25 “The coronavirus is the common cold folks”
"It gets into your respiratory system and it causes symptoms like the common cold -- or, at worst, the flu -- and depending on your age, just like the flu, it can be fatal."

"The fatality rate of this virus is less than the flu, far less than the flu."


that went on for 2 months before limbaugh had to pivot to other bulllshit like death rates are greatly exaggerated, masks are for democrats etc

from nationalizing efforts to manufacture and supply PPE to passing unemployment funding this story would have discredited not just trump but his silent partners on the radio as they dutifully regurgitated limbaugh's/putin's turds

pretty soon no thanks to woodward the schools will become incubators for a million more deaths and trump will try to do his own 're-close' of the country/USPS/election and rw radio stations in every state will attack their state democrats for not doing enough exactly right

Maru Kitteh

(28,339 posts)
40. Sorry, but that is rationalization for a heinous act. There is no way of knowing
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 11:15 AM
Sep 2020

what may have changed or how many lives may have been saved, it may have been none, but it was clearly Woodward's duty to report and reveal the truth of the lethality of the disease, and Trump's knowledge and duplicity before the American people. He put himself and his book above human life.



PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,848 posts)
4. Perhaps it wouldn't have made any difference
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 04:31 AM
Sep 2020

had Woodward released the tapes six months ago. But now, with Trump on the record as having said over, and over again, blatant untruths about the virus, releasing those tapes is vastly more effective?

Just a thought.

malaise

(268,943 posts)
21. THIS
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 07:15 AM
Sep 2020

Anyone who believed the Con is gullible - who believes someone with has lied to them over 20,000 times

Bucky

(53,998 posts)
66. I'm sorry, but no. One man doesn't get to make that decision in a democracy
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 06:51 PM
Sep 2020

The whole point of having a First Amendment right to a free press is so that we can discuss public events that matter when they matter.

If he needed to take a couple of weeks or even a month to sort out what he had, I can understand. The really damning audio tapes were cut in February and March. So maybe he waited till the end of March to write a solid report and by then he had a chance to see how horrible things were getting in New York and New Jersey and Oregon.

but any reasonable person knew the disease would continue to spread across the country and that right wingers were getting militant about not wearing masks or taking reasonable precautions. And would work just ignored that building hysteria and didn't say a word about their leader lying to them about the seriousness of the pandemic.

Then going all through April and May and June when it was clear the summer heat wasn't going to kill the virus and the Sun Belt states started seeing New York City levels of infection, Woodward still sat on his hands and didn't say a damn thing cause he had two or three more interviews lined up.

I don't give a damn if it helps the election at this point. In a democracy we need to know these things as soon as possible to make the right decisions... And Woodward can't just play God and say "Oh well, I need to hold off so my book as maximum impact."

Ms. Toad

(34,062 posts)
67. This treats COVID 19 as a political tool.
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 06:56 PM
Sep 2020

It is not. It is a public health crisis and has killed nearoy 200,000 Americanl. Releasing the tapes should not be based on when it will do the most political damge - but on when it will save the most lives.

OnDoutside

(19,953 posts)
7. The problem is that even with what they were doing, Trump got fed up with it interfering with his
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 04:40 AM
Sep 2020

re-election campaign, and got them to pivot to re-opening. The RW would have attacked Woodward to discredit him, and you'd be in a similar position.

Response to Hekate (Original post)

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
11. I love Pierce but completely disagree with his thesis here ...
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 05:33 AM
Sep 2020

Let's not lose sight of who actually did something wrong here.

Hint: NOT Bob Woodward.

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
14. Precisely
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 05:47 AM
Sep 2020

I can understand the logic of placing some blame on Woodward and perhaps there is some to be placed. He however did not hold the reins of power or sit in on the briefings. He was not in a position to direct a national response the buck stopped at the desk of the president, not the journalist.

druidity33

(6,446 posts)
16. Really?
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 06:01 AM
Sep 2020

I sure as heck think he did something wrong. You don't think people would've listened if Bob Freaking Woodward got up and said "He's trying to kill us all!". Bob may not be the person responsible for the debacle but he sure as shit had an opportunity to try and do something about it with a voice that is well respected and listened to. We got a difference of opinion here. I think Bob is just as guilty as Trump at being a self-centered egotistical dick. Bob Woodward could have saved ACTUAL lives had he spoken up.



 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
61. Nope ... I think you're forgetting how many people were already saying he's playing down
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 02:34 PM
Sep 2020

the virus for his own purposes.

Pretty much everyone already knew he was doing this, and has known it all along. The people that weren't listening to those warnings? They wouldn't have listened Bob freaking Woodward any more than anyone else who was saying the same thing. They were going to listen to Trump and Faux no matter what.

Not to mention, UNTIL a bunch of a people actually died, there was not actual proof that 'playing it down' was a bad thing.

Had Woodward said it in April it wouldn't have a lick of difference. Even if he'd played the tapes.

They're only a 'big deal' ... NOW ... because so many people are already dead.

Not to mention, blaming Woodward is a distraction that plays into Trump's hand.

This post/line of argument is totally counter-productive.

It gets a big thumbs-down from me.

50 Shades Of Blue

(9,975 posts)
12. I don't disagree about Woodward. Just like Bolton and Cohen, he held back
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 05:42 AM
Sep 2020

What he knew about Trump's reprehensible deceit to benefit himself at a later publication date, the public and democracy be damned. What that says about Woodward's character is that he's a stone cold, calculating opportunist.

But I don't think Woodward's revelations would have changed a thing if they'd come out 6 months ago. Republicans would have just circled the wagons then like they're doing now. They're always utterly shameless when it comes to defending Trump. The book would have caused a brief sensation, then been buried under subsequent events. That's the Trump/Republican/media way.

So it's no thanks to Woodward, but I can only hope that releasing this info this much closer to the election enhances its ability to really harm Trump, since it will be fresher in voters' minds.

gab13by13

(21,312 posts)
15. I sadly agree,
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 05:50 AM
Sep 2020

Woodward's book would have had little effect if he released it when we "only" had 2,000 deaths, it would have been ignored. The book most certainly carries more weight after 200,000 deaths.

On the other hand would releasing the book earlier have saved lives, I'm not so certain it would have, as a matter of fact I'm not sure it will even save lives being released now. The only effect this book may have is political.

Sancho

(9,067 posts)
17. Woodward did not know last spring what the summer of 2020 would look like...
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 06:05 AM
Sep 2020

...nor did he know what MF45 would do. Woodward probably knew that as soon as the book came out, the interviews would be over. The virus discussions are only one of many reveals that could (did) surface in interviews.

Hindsight is 2020 (pun intended). The effect of releasing the tapes now maximizes the effect on the election, so maybe it was calculated, but I don't fault Woodward as much as Pierce.

Sancho

(9,067 posts)
62. I don't think Woodward cares about sales...he has plenty of work and money...
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 02:43 PM
Sep 2020

...anything he writes will sell, just like his first book on MF45. I think he planned to maximize the interviews with the orange idiot, and EVERYONE planned to publish their books 2 or 3 months before the election.

DeminPennswoods

(15,278 posts)
18. There was never going to be a coordinated federal response
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 06:17 AM
Sep 2020

Last edited Thu Sep 10, 2020, 01:14 PM - Edit history (1)

under Trump no matter how early he knew. Keeping the stock market up and unemployment low were Trump's only priorities since he saw the economy as his path to re-election. We need merely to look at how he's operating then and now, desperately trying to get things re-opened so the economy bounces back.

People other than Woodward knew back in Feb or before that SARS2 was dangerous. When the first case appeared in Washington state, Inslee and his health experts were ready. I believe "the word" was circulating in the global scientific and medical communities, too, early on.

Elizabeth Newman was on with Nicolle Wallace yesterday talking about how career civil servants were trying to prepare without word getting up to Trump because it would make him mad.

Pierce has it wrong here simply because Trump was never going to act in the best interests of the country.

BannonsLiver

(16,369 posts)
30. I understand some of the anger directed at Woodward
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 10:32 AM
Sep 2020

Though like you I think it’s naive to think it would have changed anything. But as good as Pierce usually is I think he makes a mistake in this piece elevating Woodward to the level of an American President, the most powerful elected official in the world. By repeatedly referring to these “two men” he either intentionally or inadvertently does that.

Journalists, actors, sports stars, no matter how famous they may be, no matter how many Twitter followers they have, just aren’t on that level. I think Woodward releases this in February, it’s a 24-48 hour story and Trump would still have done whatever he was going to do. Anything else would have been ahistorical.

Maru Kitteh

(28,339 posts)
44. Duty to act/report is in no way dependent on status. Asking everyone to be "on the level of an
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 12:21 PM
Sep 2020

American president" as a prerequisite for coming forth with potentially damning and/or potentially life-saving information truly elevates the President himself to an imperial autocrat. Such an expectation discharges anyone of responsibility from ever speaking truth to power.

Fauci
Col. Vindman
Marie Yovanovitch
William Taylor
Walter Schaub
Preet Bharara

Even The Mooch and Bolton, and many others that don't immediately spring to mind this moment.

I can't accept that as a premise to excuse Woodward from the duty to act. Neither can I accept the fallacy of speculative evidence "It wouldn't have mattered" because we cannot know how many lives would have been saved by Woodward coming forward, but one human life is worth more than Bob Woodward's ego or his book.

DeminPennswoods

(15,278 posts)
53. It wasn't a secret solely between Trump and Woodward
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 01:20 PM
Sep 2020

Many people knew, otherwise how would they have been able to convey that information to Trump in the first place?

Elizabeth Newman said that the agencies that would be involved were trying to prepare all while keeping their actions to do so away from Trump because it would "make him angry". What does that tell you? Tells me these career federal employees and their bosses knew Trump wasn't going to have any sort of coordinated federal response.

BannonsLiver

(16,369 posts)
54. I don't agree at all
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 01:30 PM
Sep 2020

Whether you think status is relevant or not Pierce elevated him to the level of a president in the piece. He’s not. Period. All the emotional arguments about his ego or book deals or human and journalistic ethics don’t matter and don’t change that fact one little bit.

Also, the speculative argument line cuts both ways. We don’t know if it would have made a difference. I think it’s naive and ahistorical to believe it would. You think it would have changed everything. We’ll never know.

And on edit: these arguments are especially dumb given that Trump has been parroting a version of them all day. Do better, folks.

Maru Kitteh

(28,339 posts)
59. Where did you see me say "it would have changed everything?" I didn't.
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 02:25 PM
Sep 2020

I don't give one single little ---- what is coming out of Trump's blowhole about Woodward. Trump's abject failure, his crimes, his despicable inhumanity do not in any way excuse or absolve Woodward of his complicity in the service of self-interest. Full stop.

Woodward's excuse of "well I didn't really know if it was true" is some of the weakest shit I have ever heard.




quickesst

(6,280 posts)
23. despite Woodworks motives....
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 07:21 AM
Sep 2020

..... and the timing of its release, this editorial sounds like an attempt to stifle undeniable proof by Trump's own words by arguing that the most important thing the American people need to know is Woodward's underhanded attempt to make a buck.

"I really don’t give a flying fck at a rolling doughnut about anything else in Woodward’s book except that simple fact."

And there you have it.

genxlib

(5,524 posts)
24. Lots of strategic analysis here
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 07:46 AM
Sep 2020

About what it would have changed and when it would have been more effective.

I think that kind of misses the point here. Pierce is speaking directly to Woodward’s professionalism, character and selfishness.

As a journalist, it isn’t his job to strategize what will have the greatest policy benefit or electoral impact. His job is to inform people about important current events. On that score, he failed on a massive score. Perhaps it wouldn’t have made a difference at the time but people deserved to know.

Even if it wasn’t clear at the time, the point remains that siting on this information as the death toll rose was an ongoing failure that could have been rectified at any time.

Even if you want to make the argument of “greater good” that he kept getting interviews, those ended months ago. So his continued silence was all about book sales.

I won’t give him a pass

CTyankee

(63,903 posts)
46. What would have changed in your estimation, if Woodward had "told"?
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 12:34 PM
Sep 2020

Who should he have "told"? And what would the likely result have been?

Not defending Woodward (he had a book to sell) but I'm trying to play this out in my mind. The press, maybe, could have taken the information earlier and gotten on it earlier. What would have been accomplished?

Maybe an earlier "tell" would have generated pressure on the President to act. I'm just not sure that would have happened.

I once lived and worked in Washington. I've never seen such a nest of vipers.

genxlib

(5,524 posts)
51. I don't know what the effect would have been
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 01:05 PM
Sep 2020

I suspect it could have been higher than assumed by others here. The knowledge of his statements being out in public could have made it harder for him to behave as he did. And certainly might have convinced some of the public to pay less attention to him.

But all of that is beside the point. The point is that it shouldn't be up to Woodward to make that strategic determination. As a journalist, it is his duty to inform the public of current events. Even if it had no effect at all.

I know if I had a deceased love one who had been less than diligent, I would be pissed at him for not giving us that information back then. Especially if it was someone who was listening to Trump.

CTyankee

(63,903 posts)
52. The thing is -- and I may be wrong here -- "everybody" knew he knew...the pukes knew but
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 01:17 PM
Sep 2020

were too corrupt and evil to be expected to do anything. The Dems here at DU knew he knew (or we assumed it). The Dems in Washington knew or suspected. I guess a "smoking gun" would have had ripples that might have been helpful.

Honestly, now that we have that smoking gun, what is going to happen next? I'd like to see some of the puke snakes in the Senate lose their seats along with Trump's defeat this year. But I think that was going to happen anyway.

genxlib

(5,524 posts)
56. I think it is easy to overestimate how close people pay attention
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 02:19 PM
Sep 2020

I figure there are about 25% of the population that stays closely tuned in to current events and about 10% that are completely oblivious no matter what happens.

The remaining 2/3rds pay marginal attention and largely live their lives based on the vague sense of what is going on. That is especially true for people who feel informed by their social media feed. Perhaps more importantly, when those kinds of people see two opinions expressed, they often just shrug and do what is convenient. We see it all the time in issues like climate change where people will just throw up their hands and say "who are we supposed to believe".

I strongly believe that if their was a bipartisan concurrence that this was serious, I think we would have had a much better compliance rate than we had. I am not saying that early release of this information would have amounted to that level of concurrence. I just think it would have been much harder to treat it as a matter of differing opinions if one side was a proven to be a liar and closet believer.

Spazito

(50,308 posts)
26. Yes, they are both venal...
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 10:16 AM
Sep 2020

surprise, surprise. That takes nothing away from trump's responsibility for the deaths of 190,000+ dead Americans. trump is responsible not Woodward, imo, and castigating Woodward only gives trump and his cult an out as is already happening on Fox and even trump is tweeting the same.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
28. The snippet from this excellent post that captures it for me
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 10:22 AM
Sep 2020

"I have to wonder how Woodward watched the president* lie for six months as the body count ratcheted skyward without his conscience tearing out his heart."



Comparing the real Bob Woodward to the fictional character Bernie LaPlante? The fictional character comes off better. Woodward heard Trump minimizing the pandemic for MONTHS as tens of thousands died. Woodward knew that Trump's rationale was not to panic anyone with the reality of Covid-19, but listened quietly as Trump ginned up panic over fake issues like antifa and Black Lives Matter demonstrations. None of Woodward's misdeeds excuse Trump in the least, and pointing out Woodward's failures doesn't grant absolution to Trump.
 

Drunken Irishman

(34,857 posts)
29. More deflecting and giving Trump a pass. Let's just admit liberals suck at politics.
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 10:26 AM
Sep 2020

This is why we lose. Instead of focusing all the energy into Trump's comments, we're also wasting energy attacking Woodward and now even Trump has latched onto the whole, "why didn't he release this info months ago?" Z line.

Congrats, guys. Way to lose the story.

BannonsLiver

(16,369 posts)
31. Well the good news is in the real world it's not really being covered that way
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 10:37 AM
Sep 2020

Joy Reid made some half hearted attempt at addressing it last night before quickly moving on to Trump and Anderson Cooper did more or less the same thing. Most of the people grousing about on Twitter are red rose types who want Trump to win anyway.

 

Drunken Irishman

(34,857 posts)
38. They're smarter than liberals.
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 11:04 AM
Sep 2020

If liberals had their way, the narrative would be Trump fucked up but let's talk more about Woodward!

I swear I've seen more posts angry at Woodward here than the actual downplaying.

BannonsLiver

(16,369 posts)
39. Yes
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 11:07 AM
Sep 2020

And now we see Trump making the same argument many here, and some elsewhere, have made, which to your point, was entirely predictable.

Happy Hoosier

(7,293 posts)
32. Completely terrible argument.
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 10:38 AM
Sep 2020

Revealing this would not have shifted Trumpers who were determined to defy science and good sense.

I don't believe this would have shifted the course of the pandemic....Trumpers have long since determined they will never give up on him.

However, this CAN shift people who gave Trump the benefit of the doubt but were taking good precautions themselves. In my view, Woodard determined.... correctly in my view.... that the people would benefit MOST from exposing Trump's lies and manipulations.

We don;t have a redo button, but I think Woodward is acting in the best interests of the nation.

nolabear

(41,959 posts)
33. I understand. I'm conflicted. But given we're where we are today
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 10:42 AM
Sep 2020

I can’t help but think going after him helps 45. Criticize, absolutely, but spend energy railing at and discrediting the person who has the most condemning evidence against that monster rather than using it all on the monster himself seems like a bad idea to me.

Maybe we just need to stand together and scream in all directions, I don’t know. But I think it dilutes the focus.

Greybnk48

(10,167 posts)
47. I thought DU was the safest place to express my anger toward Woodward
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 12:43 PM
Sep 2020

whereas I'm focused like a laser on Trump elsewhere on social media.

I have to agree with Charlie Pierce. Especially after Woodward's massive asskiss book about Dubya and his war crimes. Woodward IS and always has been a Republican and I don't trust him. Bernstein was and is a liberal Dem.

But at what I thought was the perfect place to discuss a sickening feeling about Woodward with-holding lifesaving info, people who have expressed this are being attacked! "Outrage Junkies," "concern trolls," "whiners" (whining about people dying? Really DU?)

I guess we're all on edge after being cooped up for months, but I am a bit taken aback by these attacks (translate "pissed&quot .

nolabear

(41,959 posts)
55. Sorry about the attacks. It's weird sometimes.
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 02:08 PM
Sep 2020

I think people are all very much alike when somebody huts that sweet spot that just pushes us over the edge toward unreason. Some have longer fuses than others. I try hard not to shame but to hold the line when I disagree, and then not hold a grudge. 2020 is more than a whole lot of us can bear. I hope we get out alive and repairable.

quickesst

(6,280 posts)
34. hard to believe....
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 10:50 AM
Sep 2020

..... that so many agree with this piece of garbage editorial when the whole thing can be summed up with one sentence which I can't believe I am having to repeat.

"I really don’t give a flying fck at a rolling doughnut about anything else in Woodward’s book except that simple fact."

Charles Pierce is telling you to ignore the news shows, ignore trimp's quotes, and ignore anything that might be anti-trump. None of that matters. All that matters is Woodward's perceived greed. That's it. Nothing else. Neither this article, nor the author is deserving of any praise being heaped upon it and him by so many here. It is certainly not DU worthy.

GusBob

(7,286 posts)
35. yesterday evening on progressive XM radio
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 10:54 AM
Sep 2020

drive time ( here) on the Dean Obeidallah show, I listened to probably the most outraged caller ever on talk radio. This woman was literally screaming with emotion and anger at Woodward's failure to warn> The host, Dean was literally taken aback at her emotion and tried to direct it to Trump. She was having none of it and finally DO admitted that yeah, what Woodward did was "vile"

In August 3 folks I knew well died from COVID: a patient, a coworker and a colleague

We had another exposure episode in the clinic and folks had been sent home to quarantine

I understand the anger directed at BW. The election will be too late to fix the problems of these past few months and the next 2

Baitball Blogger

(46,700 posts)
36. This is a learning experience for all journalists and anyone who
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 10:59 AM
Sep 2020

wants to write a book. If you have to, hire a lawyer and let him tell us about the criminal things you know about this president. Things that we need to know to increase the public outrage to stop this president from moving in the wrong direction.

Then, write your book.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
37. Only one of them was President of the United States
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 11:01 AM
Sep 2020

It may well be fair to cast blame on both of these men, but only one of them was given the trust of the American people, and took an oath to defend America from all threats. And only one of them had the authority to take decisive action to save American lives.

notinkansas

(1,096 posts)
41. Why all the criticism?
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 11:48 AM
Sep 2020

We didn't need Woodward to tell us that Trump was lying to us. We already knew from reporting from China.

Greybnk48

(10,167 posts)
48. Our experts continued to tell us that we didn't really need masks
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 12:48 PM
Sep 2020

at least not enough to take them from healthcare workers. This went on well into Spring.

Several doctors were on MSNBC saying this very thing yesterday. We did NOT have confirmation that this was an exclusively airborne disease until damn near summer! And we still see people wearing their mask below their fucking nose! Like noses are not connected to our fucking lungs. Because they still don't get it.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
50. So of course now that they know, Trump supporters are going to put their masks on correctly?
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 12:50 PM
Sep 2020

As for our experts, we were lied to about the masks.
I am pretty sure experts darn well knew masks are helpful, but we didn't have enough masks for medical professionals, so they didn't want public to buy all the masks for themselves.

Greybnk48

(10,167 posts)
60. That's exactly true. But not in the way you are saying.
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 02:30 PM
Sep 2020

It had not been proven that masks for non-medical personal were vital, so let those on the front line have them.

We still didn’t know for sure how it was spread, but Trump and the Republicans did. Remember the video of the Michigan Doc, showing us how to wash down our groceries, back when touch was still a factor. BUT THE REPUBLICANS AND TRUMP KNEW, that this was probably “security theater” and we all needed masks.

I saw a clip on MSNBC this am where Trump fucking LIED to Sanjay Gupta about infection rate at a press conference in the White House, contradicting what he said on a tape THE NIGHT BEFORE!!

markpkessinger

(8,392 posts)
49. He was very likely contractually forbidden by his publisher from disclosing details from the book
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 12:49 PM
Sep 2020

Book publishing is a business, and publishers know how to protect their investments. IN all likelihood, Woodward was forbidden by contract with his publisher from disclosing details from the book in advance of publication.

DonaldsRump

(7,715 posts)
68. I honestly cannot believe people are wasting their time blaming Bob Woodward
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 07:34 PM
Sep 2020

Donald Trump, and Donald Trump alone, was to blame. If Bob Woodward had released the tapes, there is ABSOLUTELY no guarantee that Trump and/or the RePutinCans would have changed a damn thing.

Trump says so many mutually contradictory things in one day that this would have been glossed over. Coming on the heels of 6 months of disastrous actions/non-actions, there is no way that Trump can explain this way, and it is far more effective. If Bob makes some money off of this, fine, but the political price that Trump will pay is worth it. It took the passage of time to demonstrate that.

For heaven's sakes, impeachment didn't change Trump, so why would Bob Woodward? Don't be like Susan Collins and think Trump would learn his lesson.

Blaming Bob Woodward will not change this country. Blaming Donald Trump for these failures and voting him out of office will.

PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.

crickets

(25,962 posts)
69. There's no telling whether Bob Woodward could have made a difference had he spoken out sooner.
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 07:43 PM
Sep 2020

None of us will ever know whether thousands of dead loved ones might still be healthy and living today if Woodward had blown the whistle in real time, because he chose not to speak up all those months ago. It's merely a thought experiment now, a horrifying one.

Anger directed at Woodward does not exonerate trump or any of the other people who also could have told the truth and did not. donald trump and his administration have blood on their hands, no doubt at all.

Is there a sliver of doubt reserved for Bob Woodward? Make no mistake, the timing of his book release is tied to the election to make money, not to tip the scales. Any beneficial effect on the outcome of this election that comes from this book is entirely incidental to the cash and cachet.

Fuck you, Bob Woodward, you conscienceless husk of a human. Bravo, Charlie Pierce

It is possible to hold trump completely responsible for the needless deaths of tens of thousands, possible to harshly judge Woodward for having all the empathy of a dead shark, while simultaneously supporting Joe Biden's presidential candidacy. My vote is locked, loaded, and ready to go.

None of this 👆 will have any real effect on anyone else's vote, so I am in no way 'betraying the party' or letting donald trump off the hook by briefly expressing an angry opinion about Bob Woodward on a political message board.

Thank you for posting the op-ed, Hekate.

tavernier

(12,380 posts)
71. We knew all along because it wasn't a secret.
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 07:59 PM
Sep 2020

Europe knew. Asia knew. Etc. Etc.

We screamed for honesty from the head rat who had no intention of using his power to help.

Why are we blaming Woodward? He didn’t reveal a deep dark secret. We all knew. Trump wouldn’t have changed a hair if this had been reported in January or June or right now. And he won’t change anything until he’s thrown out of office, feet first.

DonaldsRump

(7,715 posts)
72. Good point
Thu Sep 10, 2020, 08:25 PM
Sep 2020

If blaming Woodward is correct, Trump should now be shouting to the high heavens for all to wear a mask. He is not, and he will not.

Does anyone seriously think that Woodward's disclosing this in March or April or May or June or July of 2020 would make any difference???

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