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Sat Sep 19, 2020, 12:59 PM

To those who argued it was wrong to suggest RBG should have retired under Obama...

How do you feel today? She remained an incredible jurist for her entire tenure. The argument for her to retire had nothing to do with sexism or ageism and everything to do with political pragmatism.

The people who refused to vote for HRC must shoulder some of the blame. But so must those who dismissed political pragmatism.

We are likely going to spend the next two decades watching RBGs accomplishments be undermined and overturned.

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Reply To those who argued it was wrong to suggest RBG should have retired under Obama... (Original post)
PTWB Sep 19 OP
we can do it Sep 19 #1
tritsofme Sep 19 #10
Statistical Sep 19 #17
Hekate Sep 19 #18
hlthe2b Sep 19 #2
BComplex Sep 19 #21
Tanuki Sep 19 #26
ChazII Sep 19 #29
TwilightZone Sep 19 #3
aikoaiko Sep 19 #27
yardwork Sep 19 #37
LakeArenal Sep 19 #4
DBCooper88 Sep 19 #5
Mrs. Overall Sep 19 #6
marybourg Sep 19 #7
Statistical Sep 19 #19
groundloop Sep 19 #8
PTWB Sep 19 #9
groundloop Sep 19 #14
Olafjoy Sep 19 #11
BeyondGeography Sep 19 #12
Hoyt Sep 19 #13
DavidDvorkin Sep 19 #15
yardwork Sep 19 #16
PTWB Sep 19 #28
yardwork Sep 19 #31
PTWB Sep 19 #33
yardwork Sep 19 #35
PTWB Sep 19 #49
Hekate Sep 19 #20
gulliver Sep 19 #22
Squinch Sep 19 #23
Azathoth Sep 19 #24
BeyondGeography Sep 19 #30
yardwork Sep 19 #34
BeyondGeography Sep 19 #39
yardwork Sep 19 #43
zackymilly Sep 19 #41
Hekate Sep 19 #25
yardwork Sep 19 #32
Demsrule86 Sep 19 #38
yardwork Sep 19 #44
BeyondGeography Sep 19 #46
Demsrule86 Sep 19 #48
stopdiggin Sep 19 #36
Post removed Sep 19 #40
PTWB Sep 19 #42
yardwork Sep 19 #45
Paladin Sep 19 #47

Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:01 PM

1. Two words. Merrick Garland

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Response to we can do it (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:06 PM

10. Democrats controlled the Senate until 2015.

McConnell could not have defeated Obama’s nominee before then.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #10)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:20 PM

17. Exactly. The past is the past but for the future

the very best time for a justice to retire would be when the party they support controls both the Presidency and the Senate.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #10)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:20 PM

18. Then our idiot fellow Dems stayed home in the midterms, right?

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:02 PM

2. JUST STOP IT. Have you no decency? Some of us are actually mourning her and trying to honor her

long and very important contributions to justice. Take this shit elsewhere or try just for a few moments to show some humanity.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:24 PM

21. I'm with you. This thread has no place showing up today, of all days.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:35 PM

26. Thank you Same.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:37 PM

29. Agree 100%. May we at least have this

weekend to mourn her loss?

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:02 PM

3. It wasn't up to her to save us from ourselves.

The decision to retire should be a personal one, not a political one.

"The people who refused to vote for HRC must shoulder some of the blame. "

No, they should shoulder nearly all of the blame. I reserve some for people like Jill Stein and Susan Sarandon.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #3)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:35 PM

27. I think RBG would be the first to say the personal is political


I get that SCOTUS judges typically stay politically neutral especially with regard to retiring.

Still it always surprised me that more judges weren’t more politically pragmatic about retirement decisions.

I do wish she retired under Obama and a Democratic Senste but I don’t blame or fault her for her decision .

She earned her spot and I respect her decision.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #27)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 02:37 PM

37. The last time we had Obama and a Democratic Senate was 2010.

Ginsburg probably hoped that Americans weren't stupid enough to elect a Republican Congress in 2010 and then elect Trump in 2016.

We owe her a huge debt of gratitude for not retiring before she died. Poor woman. She literally worked herself to death on our behalf. And how ungrateful some people are.

I'm grateful. I'm married to my wife because Ruth Bader Ginsburg chose to keep working and hold a progressive vote on the Court as long as possible.

I mourn her passing and I honor her work.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:02 PM

4. Nope. We are going to win in Nov.

Enough Republicans will not call for the vote.

I believe that we are going to turn the bullshit back on them. Just by being better than Republicans are now.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:03 PM

5. They better not tear down her statue

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:03 PM

6. Hmmmm.....

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:04 PM

7. I am one who thought she should have retired

under Obama, for her own sake as well as the country’s. She’s put herself through hell these past few years, fighting the inevitable out of at least in part, a sense of duty. But I haven’t, and wouldn’t, raise that issue today.

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Response to marybourg (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:21 PM

19. Agreed. Good point. We can discuss pragmatism and strategy on some future date

RIP Ginsberg

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:05 PM

8. What good does it do looking backwards and figuring out where to place blame?

We need to be looking forward, especially right now. The first things we need to do is retake the White House and Senate, looking backwards and blaming people for where we're at won't help that.

On the other hand, I may or may not have left a few messages on Moscow Mitch's phones telling him (or whatever staffer listens to his messages) what I think of him.

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Response to groundloop (Reply #8)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:06 PM

9. If we don't learn from our mistakes ...

I’m sure you know how that saying ends.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #9)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:16 PM

14. No disagreement about that.... but your OP is about placing blame, not learning.

In all my years of supervising people I've always stayed away from finding someone to blame whenever something went wrong and concentrated on figuring out what to do in the future to prevent the same thing from happening again. I think in general we're on the same page, but figuring out who to blame never moves us forward.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:12 PM

11. We have to act on what is, not what could have been

FORWARD!!! What have you done today to secure success on Nov 3rd? Contributed? Worked on GOTV?
Lots of things going on right now. Call your Dem HQ or any candidate’s campaign. Tons of COVID safe activities. Do it in honor of RBG. Keep the Faith. Do not despair. If we despair, they win. They are going to be as shi%#y as possible to try and depress us. NO!! Eff them. Get to work. Thank you.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:12 PM

12. Being called all sorts of names for being realistic about mortality...

Thanks for your post. Calling for someone north of 80 who was five years past her first pancreatic cancer diagnosis to retire and pass the torch wasn’t and never will be wrong.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:14 PM

13. Who thought Democratic voters would sit home, vote for trump, vote Green, etc., giving us trump?

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:18 PM

15. I agree with you

I wanted her to retire when Obama was elected and the Democrats controlled the Senate. When she didn't, I started worrying, and I was right to worry.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:20 PM

16. Excuse me? I'm to blame for somebody else's retirement decision?

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Response to yardwork (Reply #16)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:35 PM

28. Did you refuse to vote for HRC?

Or belittle those suggesting RBG retire under Obama when we had the senate?

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Response to PTWB (Reply #28)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 02:22 PM

31. Of course not, but that's not what you said. I quote below:

You wrote, and I italicize the part I want to highlight:

"The people who refused to vote for HRC must shoulder some of the blame. But so must those who dismissed political pragmatism. "

It wasn't up to me or anybody else when Ginsburg chose to retire. My opinion had no influence on her decision. Therefore, my opinion about her retirement is not to blame for anything.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 02:27 PM

33. Why would you dismiss political pragmatism?

If enough of RBG‘s supporters had encouraged her retirement in 2012-2014 perhaps she would have.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #33)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 02:32 PM

35. Bullshit. Ginsburg didn't know me from Adam.

In 2012-2014 the Republicans controlled the Senate. Who do you think they would have approved as her replacement?

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Response to yardwork (Reply #35)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 05:18 PM

49. Better brush up on your history there, champ.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:22 PM

20. RBG is not yet in the ground

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:26 PM

22. She may have thought Hillary was a shoo-in like many others did.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:27 PM

23. I deeply mourn RBG's passing. And I agree with you. I can do both at once.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:32 PM

24. She was 80 and had already survived cancer in 2013

There was no reason for her not to retire. She had achieved absolutely everything a legal scholar could achieve in a lifetime, including hero-status and a legacy firmly cemented in the history books. There was no reason to cling to the office, and that point was raised several times back then. She wouldn't even entertain the idea of retiring.

This kind of late-life egotism is a problem. Lautenberg pulled the same stunt, bulldozing his way back into office when he was 84, then dying and giving Good Year Blimp Chris Christie the opportunity to appoint his successor.

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Response to Azathoth (Reply #24)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:37 PM

30. In 2018, she said she wanted to work five more years

That would have placed Biden in the position of begging her to retire before the 2022 midterms. You will be pilloried for using the term egotism, but not by me.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #30)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 02:30 PM

34. In 2018 Trump was president and the Republicans controlled the Senate.

I didn't want Ginsburg to retire then either.

The last time we had a Democrat in the White House with a Democratic Senate was 2010. Since then it hasn't been safe for any progressive to retire from the Supreme Court.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #34)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 02:49 PM

39. Nobody was asking her to retire in 2018

And it’s a sad comment by you on Obama’s political skills to say she had to hang in there for the team during the last six years of his presidency.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #39)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 04:35 PM

43. 2018 was two years ago. What has changed since then?

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Response to Azathoth (Reply #24)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 02:53 PM

41. Egotism? Wish I could read people's minds.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 01:34 PM

25. This line of thinking is remarkably similar to saying "Black women will save the Dem party" ...

This line of thinking is remarkably similar to saying “Black women will save the Dem party” ...

...and then being disappointed that a minority group who have been loyal and hardworking can’t in fact work miracles against overwhelming odds.

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg never could walk on water, though she could swim like an Olympic medalist. (That’s a metaphor. So sue me.) She couldn’t change water into wine, either, but she could make gay weddings legal and dance at them.

Just stop it, all of you. Do the work. DO THE WORK AND STOP BLAMING SOMEONE WHO SPENT HER WHOLE LIFE WORKING.


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Response to Hekate (Reply #25)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 02:27 PM

32. Hear, hear.

Among the many things wrong with the OP, it sounds sexist to dictate to a highly accomplished woman when she should retire.

The last time there was a good opportunity to place a progressive justice on the Supreme Court was before the disastrous midterm elections of 2010. At that time Ginsburg was considerably younger than Biden is now, but we don't hear calls for Biden to retire.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #32)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 02:47 PM

38. That is nonsense. I love Justice Ginsberg and always will but she should

have retired. I imagine she wished she had at some point It is not an attack on her to say that...I certainly respect her right to do as she chose, but now we face a 6-3 court and this could impact the presidential and Senate races as well.

We need to start thinking practically and consider how we can win and be in a position to make policy. There is nothing wrong with this way of thinking and it does not diminish Justice Ginsberg. You know what would diminish her? if we lose everything we fought for these 50 years...we have some judges who believe Brown was decided wrongly and of course we are likely to lose Roe and as the mother of a beautiful Gay daughter, I am terrified when I consider what could happen.

We could lose Lawrence VS Texas which was decided in 2003. We could see the return of criminal sodomy laws, state law banning interracial marriage and we could lose policy dating back to Roosevelt (Medicare, Social Security ETC ) as well as the ACA and any sort of health care.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #38)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 04:37 PM

44. She hasn't had the opportunity to be replaced since 2010.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #44)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 04:52 PM

46. That's just wrong

We had a Senate majority until 2015. You’ll say it wasn’t filibuster-proof. To which I say are you maintaining that Barack Obama and Harry Reid would not have found a way to get Republicans to play ball for an ideological replacement for Ginsburg in 2013, fresh off a 332-206 EV victory? Do you really have that low of an opinion of their respective political skills?

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Response to yardwork (Reply #44)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 04:59 PM

48. We had the Senate until the end of the 2014...she could have been replaced...you don't need the

House for the courts.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 02:37 PM

36. I've always kind of felt that people were entitled

to make their own decisions (by and large) about life choices. And that Democrats, or liberals, were (largely) in support of those personal decisions.

And -- my personal decision is that this OP is fairly tone deaf -- and shows poor personal taste.
----- --- --- --- -----

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Response to PTWB (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #40)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 02:56 PM

42. What's the point of the board at all, then?

One voice is difficult to hear but can grow into many. I’m amazed there are still folks who try to defend the decision not to retire.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #42)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 04:38 PM

45. You really don't listen, do you?

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2020, 04:58 PM

47. Well, now. Aren't you just the little ray of sunshine......

Trying to rub salt in the wounds, and RBG has been dead less than a day? Shame on you.

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