I am stunned .... political discussion at work. I may be going to hell.

[Tennessee Gal]

Let me qualify this by saying that this is a person who I do not know extremely well, but I do like her and admire what I do know about her. I have always thought she was a sweet person with a great heart. We have gotten along wonderfully and had fun together. This discussion was not confrontational. But I do hope I was able to open her eyes on a few topics. The ending was the stunner!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A customer/acquaintance and I got into a political discussion this afternoon. It started innocently enough about the slowness of business. She made a remark that things were going to get worse after November. Of course I knew what she meant. I knew she was implying that if Obama won things would get worse. So, I began to ask her questions.

I asked why she thought things would get worse. She was sure that Obama was going to win, and if so, we are going to be taxed to death. She said that many new taxes are hidden in Obamacare, including a 1% tax on checks that are direct deposited from employers. (Did not bother to refute her on that because I did not have facts ready.) I told her that her fears were not legitimate about Obama taxing the middle and lower classes because Romney is the candidate that has a tax plan that would raise our taxes while reducing taxes for the wealthy.

She talked about how bad the economy is and blamed it on Obama. I asked if she knew how many jobs the country was losing per month at the end of the Bush administration. Of course she did not. I got on line and showed her that 800,000 jobs per month were being lost when Bush left office. I asked if she knew if there has been growth in private sector jobs since Obama took office or is the country still losing jobs. She did not. I showed her the chart of the growth in private sector jobs under Obama. She said it must be government jobs because Obama has expanded the government. I said no, that Obama has not expanded the government and that the chart clearly said private sector. I asked if she had ever heard of the American Jobs Act. She said no. I explained the American Jobs Act and told her it has been blocked by Republicans in Congress. I told her about Republicans blocking the bill to create jobs for Veterans just last week.

She then shifted the subject to oil drilling. She said that this country needs to have more areas opened to oil drilling. I said that under Obama the rate of oil production has increased. She was aghast. I said I could show her, but she didn't want me to. She asked why he didn't approve the Keystone Pipeline. I told her that he is in favor of it, but wanted to wait for more environmental studies and that the oil was to be exported from it anyway.

I told her she watches too much Fox News. She said she doesn't watch it . (I thought bullshit!) I told her that she is getting some bad information somewhere.

I asked if she thought Obama was born in America. She said probably. I asked if she thought Obama was a Muslim. She said probably not.

She then said that she could not vote for a Democrat because of abortion and gay marriage. She said that Democrats are pro-abortion. I said no one is pro-abortion and that most Democrats are pro-choice, meaning that the government should stay out of the decision to have an abortion. I said that I am pro-choice, but I am also pro-life because I personally am against abortion, but think that Democratic policies are much more compassionate when it comes to taking care of children. I left the gay marriage comment alone.

The stunner came when she said that she did not like Romney, but would be voting for him because she wanted to be able to face God in heaven and say that she had voted in the way He wanted her to vote - against abortion - for Republicans.

I said that I am a Christian and would vote for Democrats precisely for the same reason. I can rest easy believing that I can face God and say I voted with a clear conscience for the Party that shows compassion for the needy and infirm the way Jesus did.

I think she was stunned to have someone of faith like me take just the opposite position she does on political matters with facts and because of compassion and conscience.

I ended it by telling her that I am a Christian and I am a Liberal because I am a Christian and we would just have to leave it at that.

I think we parted ways still friends.

[renate]

1. and that's the way political discussions should be!

Exchanging opinions (and in your case, providing information) and ending as friends. Great job!

[gateley]

2. Boy, you're GOOD!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

36. +1. You handled her with gentleness and facts. nt

[Honeycombe8]

76. +1.nt

[sinkingfeeling]

3. I would have mentioned that she has no right to discuss the economic condition of the

country or her tax 'burden' if she chooses to ignore her best interests in those areas just to vote 'pro-life'.

[Tennessee Gal]

7. I could have done that, but thought I might get the point

across with economic facts and a position just the opposite of hers on abortion from me as a Christian.

[kag]

129. Someone posted here (on DU) not long ago...

an article about moving to Canada, and suddenly having government sponsored healthcare. The issue of abortion was important to this person, so she did not like that her tax dollars would now be funding abortions. However, she learned that the rate of abortion in Canada is MUCH lower BECAUSE of universal care. Women know that even if they want to give the baby up for adoption they will get good care throughout the pregnancy, and so are not as eager to abort. I'll try to find the link for you.

Also, all of those "pro-life" Republicans are even now opposing a bill in both houses of Congress that would keep women from being fired when they need certain accommodations throughout their pregnancy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014245014

Why? Because those "onerous" regulations (allowing someone to carry a water bottle with them) might cut into Wal-Mart's profits.

[elleng]

4. Thanks for the FABULOUS job you did,

seeking to set this person straight, Tennessee Gal!

[progressivebydesign]

5. Good for you. If you talk to her again, ask her how she feels about Stericycle and Romney making $$

on that company.

So.. let me get this straight. God would want her to vote for the party that caused hundreds of thousands of deaths in a trumped up war, but would be mad at her if she didn't vote for Romney (who was pro choice before he was against it?)

Sorry that your business is slow, btw.. where I am things have been going crazy in the past few years.. so much hiring, new businesses thriving, expanding, homes selling in days.

[Tennessee Gal]

12. Actually, business is slow, but steady. Some new hiring lately.

In the heat of the moment it is difficult to remember all the points to make. I do wish I had thought about the deaths from the war and which Party caused it.

[orpupilofnature57]

6. Every other form of killing is acceptable and patriotic

I too am a Liberal Christian, and get sick and tired of people saying " how can you be liberal and believe in god " as if there is this huge contradiction going on . All I can say to them, is if Jesus walked the earth today he would be accepted by the Democratic party, and ostracized by Republicans .

[anneboleyn]

63. Yes. Repubs want war against everyone and want to starve the poor. But as long as they SAY they are

"pro-life," then some people will vote no matter what, not considering what pro-life actually means.

[fasttense]

115. I don't know how Romney and RepubliCONS can call themselves Christian

It's as if they missed whole parts of the bible that declare you must help the poor.

From Mathew 25 - Then I will turn to those on my left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry and you wouldn't feed me; thirsty, and you wouldn't give me anything to drink; a stranger, and you refused me hospitality; naked, and you wouldn't clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn't visit me.' "Then they will reply, 'Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?' "And I will answer, 'When you refused to help the least of these my brothers, you were refusing help to me.' "And they shall go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into everlasting life."

There are many more parts that extol the virtue of taking care of the poor. Yet Mitt and RepubliCONS declare no one should be given food, health care or shelter. By setting up our government to help the poor, we have set up our government to be truly Christian.

[still_one]

8. I think you presented the case well. The only thing I would like to know how she feels is if she

Believes if a woman is raped or raped through incest if she believes the person should be forced to carry to term for 9 months

[rfranklin]

9. For future reference: Keystone Pipeline is to ship Canadian oil to countries other than the USA...

It will probably cause gas prices to rise in the Midwest--

Pelosi said that she disagreed with the Republicans’ assertion that the project will now end up in China, and said “this oil was always destined for overseas.”

“It’s just a question of whether it leaves Canada by way of Canada or it leaves Canada by way of the United States,” she said. “It was always going overseas. I don’t know where to, but it wasn’t for domestic consumption, and that’s really an important point because the advertising is quite to the contrary.”

“When I was in Canada last year for the then-speaker’s meeting in September, this was Topic A, Subject A,” Pelosi continued. “My questions were, to them, ‘why don’t you take it out through Canada?’ Well, they don’t want to. They don’t want to take it out through Canada. They want to take it out through the United States. But it is going out [regardless].”


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/01/boehner-on-keystone-pipeline-president-is-selling-out-american-jobs-for-politics/

[Tennessee Gal]

14. Thank you for that clarification. I will save the info. nt

[Sekhmets Daughter]

49. Great Job

Re: Keystone pipeline...The original move to halt it's progress came from the Republican Gov. of Nebraska because it goes over the largest aquifer in the nation. Water vital to "bread basket" states...the section of the pipeline already completed has developed numerous leaks. Furthermore, completion of the pipeline is going to increase gasoline prices in mid-western states. The end of the pipeline is Port Arthur, Texas a Duty Free zone, so we put the food and water supply of the nation at risk, for oil from one foreign country being shipped to other foreign countries and we don't even get to collect taxes on the oil. Just thought you might want to know.

[Tennessee Gal]

50. Thanks, will keep that info. nt

[Mnpaul]

110. and you can also point out

that the land will be taken by the Canadian company by eminent domain. This one really gets them. Many in the path of the pipeline don't want to sell their land.

Just type "pipeline eminent domain" to see their stories

[renie408]

10. Good on you.

And bad on her for cloaking her bigotry in her religion. I cannot understand people who think that the Bible in any way supports their homophobia or their pushing THEIR values on others. The Bible teaches that you should let your life be your witness, do not worry about the speck in your neighbor's eye, but rather the plank in your own, that you should render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to judge not others lest ye be judged.

How you get out of all of that "Hey, Jesus Freaks, prevent homosexuals from getting married and stop abortions!!" I have no idea.

[Tennessee Gal]

30. She actually was not pushy. She was cordial and it was a good discussion.

Last edited Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:56 PM - Edit history (2)

Had she been pushy like some of them are, it might have gone badly. But she and I both had to remember where we were when this took place. Surroundings were not conducive to a battle and I don't think either or us wanted a battle.

[renie408]

37. She wants to make HER religious view of the world mandatory for the rest of us...

through her vote.

I don't mean that she is particularly pushy in her one on one interactions, but that she wants to overlay her religious world view on the rest of us through voting for leaders that she perceives as believing as she does.

[JoePhilly]

11. Good start.

She may not be ready to leave the GOP just yet, but if you can talk to her like this, she is not a lost cause.

Many on the far right, are lost causes.

Keep talking to her.

[Tsiyu]

13. I salute your bravery and your patience

I will never get how people can believe that their Gawd would be a Republican, and that they'll go to hell if they vote Democratic.

Democrats stand for everything Jesus supposedly stood for: taking care of the least of these.

Jesus never said a word about abortion or gay people, but he mentioned the poor 400 times.

K & R

[Tennessee Gal]

15. I used to not be so patient. I used to go ballistic.

I have since learned that I can accomplish a lot more by asking questions and providing information that proves they are wrong. Plant the seeds and give them something to think about is far more productive than a pounding.

[Tsiyu]

18. I've gotten a little better myself, but I still couldn't do what you did

You used reason and skill where I tend to start cursing.

I think having Obama in the White House makes me less anxious than when the Chimp was in - when I REALLY let people have it if they messed with me.

The other day at the feed store, bunch of guys standing around and one old farmer was bitching that the farm store dude had "Voted for Obama."

"Can you believe he voted for Obama?" he asked, coming up to talk to me. Without skipping a beat, I said:

"Yeah, I voted for him, too. And I'm voting for him again because Republicans SUCK!" Then I took my sack of feed to the car ( my 100 pound ass was not going to let any of those men carry that 50 pound sack - even though they protested that one of them should do it. )

The poor old dude looked stunned and had no comeback. He followed me out to my car, the other dudes laughing, and I just said "Have a nice day. y'all," because if I got into it with that old man he might have a heart attack!

Good on you for your work today.

[Demoiselle]

16. You did a beautiful job.

I wouldn't have had the patience to get to your voting like a Christian argument. I start to hyperventilate when I hear the kind of nonsense she was spouting. Good on yer.

[Rider3]

17. Well handled!

This was a perfect explanation to someone who hasn't a clue. Good job!

[Scuba]

19. Nicely done, thanks for not letting the bullshit stand unchallenged.

[slor]

20. You should have told her about...

Stericycle.

[NICO9000]

21. Obama "probably" born in U.S. and "probably not" a Muslim

Great post, TNGal! I admire your calmness and rationality in dealing with this woman. My blood pressure would be through the roof!

[Tennessee Gal]

53. Yes, I noticed those "probably" inserts. She didn't have it in her to say

anything definite about those two questions. I let it slide, but I think I know what she was thinking. I think she did not have the nerve to say what she really believes about those two questions after I demonstrated that I knew my stuff and she didn't. Believe me I was ready!

[Ilsa]

22. You did a great job.

I hope in the future, your coworker will look for facts to support her spiritual beliefs, instead of falling for lies from people who wouldn't know Christ if suddenly appeared before them and performed miracles.

[Xyzse]

23. Oddly enough though I do the same... In regards to the abortion issue

I tend to reference the fact that the company Romney headed profited on aborted fetuses.
There is a difference between being pro choice and profiting from it.

[lunatica]

24. If you get to talk to her again tell her about Romney and Stericyle

"Earlier this year, Mitt Romney nearly landed in a politically perilous controversy when the Huffington Post reported that in 1999 the GOP presidential candidate had been part of an investment group that invested $75 million in Stericycle, a medical-waste disposal firm that has been attacked by anti-abortion groups for disposing aborted fetuses collected from family planning clinics."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/romney-bain-abortion-stericycle-sec

How does she think God might feel about that?

[NYtoBush-Drop Dead]

25. You should tell her Romney was pro-choice when he was Governor of Mass

[SheilaT]

26. I also admire your fortitude and

equanimity in dealing with someone like her.

I am not a believer in any organized religion, which means I could have potentially said everything you said up to the point where you were able to say you are a Christian, which means had I been you in that discussion, she then would have walked away from me convinced I'm an agent of Satan and that everything I'd said was a lie.

So again, good for you and thank you for taking the time to educate her.

[MiniMe]

27. There is a huge difference between being pro-choice and being pro-abortion

I don't think there are many if any people who are pro-abortion. But it is none of my business what other people do with their bodies or their lives. I am old enough now that it isn't an issue that I will have to worry about for myself. I wish that people didn't feel like they had to do it, but sometimes it is the right thing for them.

[treestar]

28. Nice job

Kept it civil and kept to the facts.

[Not Sure]

40. Couldn't agree more.

So far in my experience this is the only tactic that gains any ground with the really brainwashed. And to continue with the washing metaphor, it often requires rinse and repeat.

[trof]

29. The 1 % tax on direct depsits is BS. Check snopes.

[Tennessee Gal]

55. As I said, I did not have the facts at hand to refute that one.

I knew it was not true, but I like to have something to go to for backing up my position with facts.

On that one, I did tell her that if Obama got re-elected and that actually happened she could say I told you so.

I don't think she will have that opportunity. LOL!

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

31. Great job!!

[Chorophyll]

32. Nicely done. Low-key.

I admire people like you who can have these conversations without getting angry. (I do not have this ability.)

[Cha]

33. Props to you, Tennessee Gal!

Very Inspiring encounter!

[humbled_opinion]

34. WOW, I get into this conversation everyday...

with the teaheads at my job, I am way outnumbered. They claim that the Democrats are the party in favor of forcing Americans to pay more tax to government for government redistribution policies. They say this has nothing to do with feeding the poor or taking care of those less fortunate and everything to do with increasing the political power of the left.

They now point to Romney's tax returns and they say, Romney gave 4 million roughly 30 percent of his total income in 2011 to charity directly, not to inefficient government bureaucrats, they claim this had more of direct impact to helping people than if he had given 10 times as much to the federal government.

They say Jesus would never support people paying their money to government and would stand on the side of people directly helping people by giving their money to communities and charities. Getting government out of the way and empowering the people with more opportunity seems to be their meme....

[maindawg]

45. in a perfect world

or in an imaginary world either concept, that of charity and the people living happily save the evil tax collector , or the fanciful conversation with a coherent non threatening mixed up Christian, is valid.
We dont live in an imaginary world.

[northoftheborder]

88. my thoughts exactly

[Tigress DEM]

106. Jesus knew all about rich people using their "faith" to try and get out of paying taxes

The Pharisees sent people to ask Jesus lots of questions, to ensnare him and get him in trouble with Rome.


Mat 22:17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?"
Mat 22:18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, "Why put me to the test, you hypocrites?
Mat 22:19 Show me the coin for the tax." And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?"
Mat 22:21 They said, "Caesar's." Then he said to them, "Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

[MissNostalgia]

35. In reading this,

I just imagine this situation being an exorcism, because you threw facts at her, and she vomited a false talking point.

[Tennessee Gal]

57. LOL!

[DrewFlorida]

38. Good job refuting all of that missinformation so effectively!

[Tumbulu]

39. Fabulous!!!!!

You should be so proud of yourself!!!!!I wish that I could convince a few people that I know who think this same way.

Your post inspires me, thanks.

[skeewee08]

41. From one fellow Christian to another

Well done...

[LittlestStar]

42. Whenever I think of what the person Christianity was founded on was really like,

I always imagine he must have been sort of an Obama-type person. Not from the richest family, devoting his time to his community and doing all he can to uplift the downtrodden while doing whatever he could to educate the ignorant. This is all regardless of whether his birth was divine or whatever. I doubt I will ever be a Christian but your post and your viewpoints make me feel better about it. Your friend, on the other hand, .

[Wednesdays]

68. Don't be too hard on the OP's friend

After all, the OP said she is "reachable."

Wouldn't it be great if we could get a big bunch of evangelicals to switch to our side? It's not as ludicrous as it sounds. 100 years ago, the big issue for them was "demon alcohol" and temperance. Nowadays, temperance and prohibition isn't even on the radar screen... so their big concerns are not static.

I'm sensing more acceptance of homosexuality here in heavily Baptist country. I don't mean to say there aren't still plenty of bigots, but your everyday office co-worker doesn't put up as much of a fight anymore when you tell him you support gay rights. Then, if other pro-Republican issues such as abortion give way to other matters, we could be picking up a lot of their votes, particularly from those who want to distance themselves from the racists of their fold.

[LittlestStar]

85. Well it was the utterly brainwashed notion that "god" wants his flock to be against abortion

that made me feel she had passed the point of no return. I believe that is what happens you have decided to accept that there is a god and he is an angry, condemning, judgemental, unforgiving ass.

[oberliner]

43. Email: Obama to Impose 1% Bank Transaction Tax

H.R. 4646: Viral message claims President Obama's finance team is planning to impose a 1% transaction tax on all transactions at financial institutions, including personal bank deposits.

Description: Email rumor
Circulating since: Aug. 2010
Status: Mostly false (see details below)

Analysis: Quite misleading. It's true (as of this writing) that there's a bill in the House of Representatives, the Debt Free America Act (H.R. 1125), which would impose a one percent tax on certain financial transactions if passed. It's also true that the bill was introduced by a Democrat, Rep. Chaka Fattah of Pennsylvania (who introduced more or less the same legislation in 2010 as H.R. 4646).

However, the legislation has zero co-sponsors, nor has it ever been supported, endorsed, or even acknowledged by anyone in the Obama administration.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/Obama-One-Percent-Transaction-Tax.htm

[Tennessee Gal]

59. Thank you for that link. Will keep it for the future! nt

[oberliner]

78. No problem

One good thing about the internet - folks can't get away with BS quite so easily!

[Tennessee Gal]

80. Yes, I should have recommended she try some fact checking because

she was misinformed on so many issues.

[mopinko]

84. the robin hood tax

is being promoted by many, but it is not a tax on personal bank transactions, it is a tax on financial transactions, like stock sales and futures trades.
it would balance the budget at .01%, and lead us all to the land of milk and honey at .1%, but it will only happen if it happens world wide (as is also talked about) and would likely be .001% or less.

[tapermaker]

44. you really let us down

how could you just pass over gay rights!If you were a candidate I would threaten to primary you with someone to the left of you .

[jtuck004]

46. You are stoned? At work?

Can't type more, have to find my glasses.











On edit - sorry, that's stunned. Gotta pay more attention to my specs...

But you did handle that very well. Doubt it created any doubt, (rarely does in True Believers) but good example.

[ellisonz]

47. I would say she's getting it from her church friends. nt

[ANOIS]

48. Bravo! Tennessee Gal

Armed with the facts, & delivered expertly & with compassion.

Wish I could think on my feet as well.

[proud patriot]

51. well done

[bongbong]

52. If you see her again

Ask her what the Bible says about abortion.

Answer: not much, other than to equate it to a kind of minor crime you can absolve with a small fine.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. YaRRRggglLLLeee BLLLURRRggLaRRRtrrrggHHHllle WArrrg DERP

[BumRushDaShow]

67. OMG I can't stop laughing at this

I am trying to talk on the phone and can't stop.

Must. Get. Out. Of. This. Thread.

[gkhouston]

77. Why do I feel like I've just chugged a bottle of Nyquil? n/t

[Tennessee Gal]

60. Have a nice life. nt

[Gabi Hayes]

62. PLEASE, PLEEEEZE leave this post alone. I beg you.

pretty much encapsulates, the ignorant, substance-free, pullulations vomited forth by the typical idiot who has no idea whatsoever what he/she/it is talking about

very entertaining

could it possibly be satire?

heavy handed, yes, but fun

[Tennessee Gal]

64. Someone alerted on it and it is gone. It wasn't me, although I did think about it. nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

70. We can still tee off in this subthread

Guy sounded like his hood and sheet was on fire.

[bluemarkers]

58. Bravo!

I've not yet had the courage to say to anyone yet, but much like you, I feel I will be able to face judgement day with a fairly clean (well I did attend college and all that) conscience. I voted for Kerry/Edwards in part because I knew Bush/Cheney etc were murderers and responsible for upwards of 250,000 innocent deaths. How in the hell any Christian could vote for them 2004 is beyond my comprehension.


(I did have an abortion confrontation one time. Someone said I was pro abortion. I said, yippee, I love abortions so much let's all have one!!! The look I got....lol.... then I explained just like you did, no one is pro abortion, but rather pro choice, and the conversation went along the same lines as yours)

[anneboleyn]

61. Could remind her that US Catholic bishops slammed Ryan's budget for brutalizing the poor

[Tennessee Gal]

65. Yes, that is one I will try to remember, as well as the Nuns on the Bus! nt

[DonRedwood]

66. Hey Tennessee

:0) all I can say is, WOW.

I am so glad you are out there education people!

[LaydeeBug]

69. Oh no, honey. Your coworker might be going to hell

"the least of these" notwithstanding

[Tennessee Gal]

71. Upon reflection since leaving work, more of the conversation is coming back to me.

Here is more of what I remember being said - all of this in the midst of the conversation. It started and ended as I posted in the OP.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I asked if she thought Obama was a Christian. She said she did not know. I told her I believe Obama is a Christian, a loving and wonderful father and husband, extremely intelligent, and has this nation's best interests at heart. I told her that Mitt Romney cannot be trusted and I would never vote for him and would never vote for a Republican the rest of my life.

I told her that I watched both the political conventions and the Republican convention was horrible.

I told her that I follow politics very closely, do a lot of research, do a lot of fact checking, and that in the past wrote a political column for a progressive web site.

She said that the wealthy already pay more income taxes than the rest of the taxpayers. I said that they should. She asked why and I said because they have more money! I told her about the wealth gap widening over the past thirty years and that tax rates were as low as they have been in years, that wages for the middle and lower classes have been stagnating or declining, that the deficit problem would have to be reduced by taxing the wealthy more because the hard working average American is just barely getting by and cannot afford to pay more taxes.

I mentioned to her that Romney had wanted to let the auto companies go bankrupt and now they are thriving.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wish I had mentioned that the fiscal problems of this country are because of the George W. Bush unfunded wars and tax cuts for the wealthy. I wish I had mentioned that there would have been no need for a stimulus when Obama took office had Bush been a better President.

I am sure there is more I will think of to tell her next time, but I did the best I could under the circumstances.

Anyway, it ended cordially and I will be seeing her again soon.

[Doc Holliday]

79. You covered the waterfront pretty well....

...but I think I would have stuck to the "he's a liar" card. No shortage of material there.

I can't abide a liar.

[Tennessee Gal]

81. Yes, the liar point is a good one especially in this election cycle.

Both Ryan and Romney are proven liars.

I am thinking that I should have mentioned that Sarah Palin is the biggest twit to ever walk this earth and it was her precious Republican Party that almost put her in a very powerful position.

[azureblue]

92. to add

you could also tell her that Clinton handed Bush a budget surplus, which George promptly squandered on tax breaks for his friends, and, as a result, created this mess that we are in now. And the GOP's stated purpose, when President Obama took office, was to stop all of his efforts, no matter the cost. And that is why we are in this mess right now- all because of GOP failed policies that date back 35+years. Ask her what is wrong with the tax rates that Ronald Reagan had/ Eisenhower, for that matter? Tell her that this country prospered under Eisenhower and the tax rates for the rich were 3 times what they are now. Tell her that the GOP has one purpose, and that is to line their pockets with her money, and the heck with America. Tell her Romney pays a lower tax percentage than she does.

Ask her, as a Christian, would she vote for a person who has a track record of doing the exact opposite of what Jesus tells his followers to do? This is the one that always gets them..

[Tennessee Gal]

94. Excellent points and thank you! nt

[TuxedoKat]

132. Bravo!

You gave her alot to think about and discussed things in a respectful manner. Hopefully she will really think about what you said.

[shireen]

72. your handling of that discussion

was elegant and classy. You had a good grasp of what was really going on and you presented it to her without being judgmental.

When i get upset, facts fly out my head and its so hard to calmly refute points. You did it masterfully. I can't, so I stay away from Republicans. I have conservative friends, reasonable people I love and admire them. But they're nothing like the mean bunch of people in today's Republican party.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

73. you're the kind of Christian that Gandhi would like

Love your command of details too. I can never remember the important things.

[crispini]

74. Nice work!

Way to go!

[Tennessee Gal]

75. Thank you all for the positive posts! I appreciate your support.

This is why I love DU as a forum for discussing how best to present facts and deal with the opposition.

Many thanks!

[Tennessee Gal]

82. I FORGOT THE BEST PART! I sold her more than $500 worth of product after this discussion!

[mikki35]

83. Wow!

I think you did amazingly well! There's no way you're gonna think of everything in the heat of the moment - if you're like me, you always think of the BEST arguments as you're walking away, or after you get home...wherever you are when the stress wears off! Its so hard to keep your cool when ignorance and/or ugliness flies out of people's mouths. Kudos!!

[Tennessee Gal]

87. Usually I think of what I should have said later on, as you say.

And that is true to some extent in this situation, but I felt good after the conversation because I was able to refute most of what she said right on the spot. I did better than I usually do and I think I owe DU some of the credit for that. The resources here for facts to use have been amazing lately so I have been preparing myself to get my points across when presented with the opportunity.

[smackd]

86. I, too, am a liberal BECAUSE I am a Christian.

And I make sure I share that with anybody that wants to talk politics with me, especially from the right.

I was in the College Republicans. I read Atlas Shrugged when I was 19 and thought it was the shit. I voted for Bush the elder in my first election...hell, I shamefully admit I voted for Clayton Williams! (no, really...I'm ashamed of that )

I was baptized by choice as an adult when I was 28, and its been 'downhill' ever since, lol. At least according to my right-wing parents

But the more I studied Jesus and grew in faith, the more liberal I became. Also, the older I became and the more money I made. All of which goes against common wisdom...but I happen to think common wisdom is wrong. Especially when it comes to Christ.

Anyway, this is my longest post yet but the op prompted me to respond b/c I have had that same discussion many times!

I've lurked long enough to know mine's not the most popular sentiment on here, but that's okay, it doesn't have to be

[Tennessee Gal]

90. Thank you for posting and welcome to DU. Please post more often.

You are right in the fact that we Liberal Christians need to speak out more frequently.

You confessed voting for Bush the elder. I should confess to voting for Reagan in 1980, much to my embarrassment now. I learned my lesson but good.

I think that growing in faith is instrumental to becoming more liberal to those who are open to the teachings of Jesus and not brainwashed by the right wing religious fanatics who think that their way is the only way. They could not be more wrong and they are turning people "off" regarding religion. At least that is my opinion.

You cannot demand that people believe exactly as you do. It does not work that way, but that is what they try to do.

Today, I stood up for my Christian faith in combination with my political beliefs and it felt good.

[smackd]

93. Exactly.

When the focus is Jesus and his teachings, and not 'the church' or some dogma or men/women using religion for their own agenda...I honestly don't know how one ends up NOT being more liberal! The NT is like...a hippy manifesto, lol

[pamela]

105. Welcome to DU!

I hope to see a lot more posts from you. It's good to have you with us.

[hue]

89. I get this (similar interactions) every day at work!!

[speedoo]

91. Thanks for that post.

What you did in that conversation is an inspiation to me.

Thanks again.

[FunMe]

95. Christian and a Liberal .. Love it!

Wonderful ending! Reminds me of an episode of Designing Women with Julia Sugarbaker:

&feature=player_embedded

"And another thing... I am sick and tired of being made to feel that if I am not a member of a little family with 2.4 children who goes just to Jerry Falwell's church and puts their hands over their hearts every morning that I am unreligious, unpatriotic, and un-American!! Because I've got news for you, Mr. Brickett... all liberals are not kooks, anymore than all conservatives are fascists!! and the last time I checked, God was neither a Democrat nor a Republican! And just for your information, yes I am a liberal, but I am also a Christian. And I get down on my knees and pray everyday ---- on my own turf — on my own time. One of the things that I pray for, Mr. Brickett, is that people with power will get good sense, and that people with good sense will get power... and that the rest of us will be blessed with the patience and the strength to survive the people like you in the meantime!!"

[Tennessee Gal]

96. That is absolutely fantastic! Thanks for posting it!

It is a keeper to be used at some point. I love it!

[Loudestlib]

97. You should have asked her:

Did you know about the millions Romney made burning medical waste from Planed Parenthood?

[OnyxCollie]

98. Hell doesn't exist.

You'll be fine.

[Tennessee Gal]

101. Another way to look at it is to make the point that if Romeny is elected

we will all be living in what might feel like hell.

[MrMickeysMom]

99. Yours is the "duck" model... calm on the water...

paddling like hell underneath.

Always be ready with your internet source (they must have been many, but you knew the ones to show her quickly). You can't argue with facts.

It bothers me, faith based, or no faith based, that people are such followers. She would rather do as her influences tell her every day rather than check out what you show her, still having to guilt of abortions in the country when another statistic would have shown her that they are lower when education and planned parenthood is involved. Now what is it that she really wants?

Anyway, good on you.

[Tennessee Gal]

100. Your points on abortion are good ones.

I believe I have seen statistics showing that abortion rates are lower when a Democrat is in the White House. I will have to look that up again.

Thanks.

[azureblue]

112. on abortions

way back in the middle ages, the church decreed that an infant did not receive a soul until after a month of its birth. This was done to soothe guilt of women who took the unwanted offspring out into the woods to die, after they were born. Later, the church changed it to declaring a new born was "human" at birth (the same as the Jewish faith). There is no support in the Bible for declaring a zygote as human or having a soul. If a person of Christian faith prevents another from having an abortion, they are effectively forcing their religious views on another. My response to anti abortionists is, "will you, then, not eat shrimp? Will you sell your daughters into slavery? Will you say Hail Mary's at school every morning? Will you burn a bull in sacrifice to God? Will you observe passover and only eat kosher food? Will you bathe in the Ganges as a religious ritual? If you will not, then you have no business forcing your views on others.

[progree]

102. Why I post on news.yahoo.com's comment section - because of the abysmal ignorance

She talked about how bad the economy is and blamed it on Obama. I asked if she knew how many jobs the country was losing per month at the end of the Bush administration. Of course she did not. I got on line and showed her that 800,000 jobs per month were being lost when Bush left office. I asked if she knew if there has been growth in private sector jobs since Obama took office or is the country still losing jobs. She did not. I showed her the chart of the growth in private sector jobs under Obama. She said it must be government jobs because Obama has expanded the government....

I've been ridiculed for wasting my time posting on the comments section on various articles at news.yahoo.com. People tell me only hard-core righties and lefties read the comments (no evidence for that is given of course) (many articles garner thousands of responses). But when I see something like the above that you wrote, it makes me more determined to be a "LibTard" and keep posting what I've shown below in blue (I usually keep my posts shorter, in keeping with the norm of news.yahoo.com comments, but I draw on the below for my posts on the economy).

On another subject, Obama has very definitely lowered lower- and middle-class taxes - Google "Making Work Pay Tax Credit" and the partial payroll tax holiday. And taxes overall. The "a 1% tax on checks that are direct deposited from employers" is sheer fiction.

Oh by the way, I have a ton of facts like the below in blue about the economy -- along with the official sources, at http://www.democraticunderground.com/111622439

Then there's CabCurious's thread full of economic facts and charts and graphics -- see my signature line. In case I change my signature line, its at http://www.democraticunderground.com/125170175

[font color=blue]
It took 8 years for Bush to ruin the growing economy that Clinton handed him (and turn a budget surplus into a near doubling of the national debt (1.86-fold increase, thanks Bush), and you CONNEDservatives are complaining that Obama hasn't completely reversed 8 years of Republican economic ruination in 3 1/2 years?

Do you really want to hand the keys back to the people who drove the economy off the cliff? When Bush left office, he handed Obama an economy that had already shed 4.3 million jobs in Bush's last 10 months, and the GDP was contracting at a 8.9% annual rate (Q4 2008). At the end of the Bush presidency, the unemployment rate was 3.5 percentage points higher than when he began his presidency.

4.6 million payroll jobs have been created in the last 30 months. Bush only created 1.1 million payroll jobs in his entire 8 year presidency - ironically by creating 1.8 million government jobs and destroying 0.7 million private sector jobs

Ruinous Republican policies also drove the U.S. stock market (S&P 500) down 37% during those 8 Bush years -- from 1343 to 850. As an investor, I'd rather go with Obama -- its up to 1466 as of Friday 9/14 close, up 72% since he took office. (Google: Historical Prices - Yahoo Finance S&P 500 ). Clearly the business and investor community has a lot more confidence in Obama than it did in Bush.[/font]

[Tennessee Gal]

116. Excellent information. Bookmarked the threads. Thanks. nt

[BlueStreak]

103. Well done, don't be offensive, but firmly show them they cannot take for granted

that everyone thinks the way they do. My experience is that most of them honestly never even considered that those around them might think differently. Oh sure, there are "the others" who are wrecking things, but nobody I know would think that way.

It is shocking to them to learn that a) many of those around them do indeed have a different view, and b) the most narrow-minded of them are actually in a very small minority.

This is why you want to educate but not offend. The reason they are so narrow-minded in most cases is because they thought that's how everyone thought. More than anything else, they fear not being in the safety of a crowd. If you can show them that they actually are outside the crowd that can be a jolt that may start them on the path of opening up their minds.

We're not looking for an argument, but we will also not stand idly by in the face of narrow-mindedness. We all must commit to doing more of this, following your example. It doesn't end on election day. It must be an ongoing thing because ignorance and bigotry flourish when not weeded out regularly.

[DeSwiss]

104. Thank you.

And when you see your friend again, tell to read:

Matthew 7:1-2
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Matthew 22:36-40
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mat 25:35-40
For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

- Can't help it -- I'm a PK. Namaste......

[B Calm]

107. Hopefully you put a little pin hole in her bubble. .

[RainDog]

108. You did a wonderful thing!

[calimary]

109. You did a FANTASTIC job! Facts are wonderful things sometimes! One request:

Could you post the links to some of the graphs you showed her? This OP of yours is quite literally a Master Class in refuting wrong-wing talking points in an elegant, intelligent, non-confrontational, AND THOROUGH way.

It'd be great to have those details in this thread - we all need some good information to back up our arguments, and those graphs aren't always easy for everyone to find.

Thanks so much - FABULOUS work!!!!! BRILLIANT effort!!!!!!

BRAVA!!!!!!!!!!

Glad you're on OUR side!

[Tennessee Gal]

117. Here is a wealth of information:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125170175

The ones I used and more are in that thread. Scroll to the bottom for the links.

I looked a couple of them up individually when I was talking to her, but that thread has them all ready to be bookmarked.

[calimary]

134. That's a Fort Knox of information! That's a wrongney's secret book-keeping of information!

GREAT! I missed the original thread, so I'm DOUBLY grateful to get this. Kicked it and bookmarked it for myself!

What's the best part is that this is all here in one thread - this whole jackpot of info - that will fully equip anyone who has to rebut the talking points from the bad guys.

Tennessee Gal, your thread here isn't just a thread. It's a PUBLIC SERVICE!!!!!!

THANK YOU!!!!

[Zambero]

111. That's the best possible approach with a low-info voter

A very constructive conversation. Hopefully she can reflect back on some of the points you raised and reconsider her political allegiance. That sort of switch needs to come from within, however, but it does happen. As a former diehard Republican who experienced a political epiphany some years ago, I can attest to that!

[ZombieHorde]

113. Awesome. nt

[ermasdaughter]

114. Wow, I've been dying to have one of those coversations!

You were awesome!! You did her a great service....

[Tennessee Gal]

118. It has occurred to me that should I get the chance it might be effective

to point out to her and others like her that economic policies also have religious implications similar to those of abortion in that our faith would support every American having the opportunity to improve their lot in life. This can only happen when the poor are not being oppressed by tax policies that shift wealth to those who are already quite well off financially. Yes, that could be called redistribution, but that has been going on for years to the advantage of the wealthy and is the reason for the growing wealth gap. So, trying to put Obama's fiscal policies down as "class warfare" does not work for those who fully understand that "class warfare" in favor of the wealthy has existed for many years in Republican tax policies. My faith tells me that if she believes being pro-choice is wrong by her faith standards, oppressive tax policies should also be considered wrong by faith standards and must be corrected.

[GTurck]

119. I consider myself...

a writer but this woman is hands down a great communicator. The tone of her writing was gentle but persistent and ready with facts when they were needed. Thank you Tennessee Gal.

[Tennessee Gal]

120. Thank you very much for the compliment!

[Mr Dixon]

121. IMO

Good job

[mgardener]

122. hell

You are not going to hell.
Think of how many lies you had to debunk.
I am a christian and I am pro choice.
We need to have abortion as an option. I cannot imagine a God who would let a women die so a bunch of cells or a fetus could possibly live. Or make a women ravished by rape, bear the rapist child.

Who is feeding and taking care of the poor? Not republicans. It is obvious they have forgotten Jesus dictum to take care of the poor.

[Tennessee Gal]

123. I know. I can't imagine living in such a fantasy world as the person I

kindly confronted. I love facts. I love information. I love research. I want the truth to be my guide.

People may choose to go around spouting lies, innuendo, and propaganda. I am not one of them and will stand my ground when I know the truth and facts back me up.

[msedano]

124. she'll probably not vote, now

not that disenfranchising anyone is a good, but there's a solidly established attitudinal connection between unpopular messages and popular spokesvoices. your relationship with the woman pulls the latitude of her attitude toward a pro-humanistic approach, simply because the woman has some respect for you. unlikely that, absent additional training by you she'll reverse course, but it's worth a repeat discussion.

on the other hand, her attitudes may have been so far to the right that you pulled her one point to the left and she fired your company out of the cognitive discomfort.

[Tennessee Gal]

126. I don't think she fired the company I work for.

We have unique products available she likes to use for her arts and crafts that she puts in local shows. I sold her over $500 worth of them yesterday.

We parted on good terms and she even invited me to her next event and said she would remind me of the date and time.

[maddiemom]

125. I once lost a friend at work when she was going on about "pro abortion" people,

and I told her that no one is pro abortion; they are pro Choice. I don't think she spoke to me again. Last night, calling for the local Obama campaign, I spoke to an older gentleman who told me how active he had been in Democratic politics for years. He then said that he would never vote for another Democrat because the party "had turned Socialist." He said Obama was an Arab and a Socialist (I've heard this from others). Then, sounding chagrined, he apologized TO ME, because "it was good that I was being active in politics."

[Tennessee Gal]

127. Must not have been a very strong Democrat or

maybe never really was a Democrat. He was too easily spouting that right wing crap.

Thanks for working for the Obama campaign!

[Odin2005]

128. I run into the "I don't want to go to hell" reason a lot.

There are a lot of people who vote R simply because they fear if they vote for a "baby killer" they will go to Hell.

[Tennessee Gal]

130. This was my first time to be faced with that particular one.

I handled it the best way I could under the circumstances by letting her know that I, too, am a Christian as a Liberal Democrat and that I can face God with confidence just as easily as she can.

The next time anyone takes that stance with me I will ask if they seriously think that Democratic President Jimmy Carter, a life-long Christian Sunday School teacher, is going to hell. I will also ask them if they are seriously telling me that my own parents, two of the finest Christian people I have ever known who voted for Democrats all their lives, are burning in hell. That should put them in their place, if anything will.

[maddiemom]

136. TIME FOR THE CHURCHES TO START PAYING TAXES!

[Tennessee Gal]

137. Not every church preaches politics from the pulpit.

Mine does not and if it did, I would find another one.

[LibDemAlways]

131. Excellent. If you talk with her again ask her

how God wants people to treat children who are born - because the party and candidates she supports are determined to destroy any and all programs that help those in need.

My husband has an aunt who thinks the same way. She votes for "anti-abortion" Republicans who pay lip service to the issue at election time and then quietly forget about it once in office.

[Glaisne]

133. what links did you show her

You mentioned going online to show her graphs. Do mind sharing what links you used? Thanks!

[Tennessee Gal]

135. I just googled private sector job growth and came up with one to show her.

However, as shared up thread, this link gets you to a collection that should be all you would need: http://www.democraticunderground.com/125170175

[Tennessee Gal]

138. Update, and yes this is a kick.

Spoke with this friend briefly yesterday. She is participating in a Fall crafts fair and invited some of my other friends and I to come. She was friendly as always. So, I don't think what I said to her had a negative impact on our relationship. It is possible that she had never discussed some of her beliefs with anyone who did not feel just as she did. Or at least, perhaps she had never had that type conversation with anyone who could do so calmly and rationally. I hope some seeds of doubt were planted in her and she will have reason to really contemplate what she said to me.