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Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:10 PM

 

Carl Sagan the prophet.

77 replies, 14979 views

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Arrow 77 replies Author Time Post
Reply Carl Sagan the prophet. (Original post)
Whovian Sep 2012 OP
valerief Sep 2012 #1
Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #15
harmonicon Sep 2012 #69
valerief Sep 2012 #70
CherokeeDem Sep 2012 #2
scheming daemons Sep 2012 #3
awoke_in_2003 Sep 2012 #11
Aldo Leopold Sep 2012 #20
Johonny Sep 2012 #57
ck4829 Sep 2012 #4
awoke_in_2003 Sep 2012 #12
ck4829 Sep 2012 #14
Kindly Refrain Sep 2012 #45
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2012 #25
nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #5
Raster Sep 2012 #6
hifiguy Sep 2012 #7
Moostache Sep 2012 #8
Whovian Sep 2012 #9
BootinUp Sep 2012 #10
TheKentuckian Sep 2012 #13
Whovian Sep 2012 #34
Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #71
David Zephyr Sep 2012 #16
Smickey Sep 2012 #17
Overseas Sep 2012 #18
NYC Liberal Sep 2012 #19
Canuckistanian Sep 2012 #21
pokerfan Sep 2012 #66
Canuckistanian Oct 2012 #76
donqpublic Sep 2012 #22
defacto7 Sep 2012 #23
drm604 Sep 2012 #24
Shankapotomus Sep 2012 #26
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2012 #27
JHB Sep 2012 #43
GeorgeGist Sep 2012 #28
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2012 #38
Jackpine Radical Sep 2012 #29
Whovian Sep 2012 #41
hifiguy Sep 2012 #74
susanna Sep 2012 #30
mick063 Sep 2012 #31
Whovian Sep 2012 #32
BlueMTexpat Sep 2012 #48
CrispyQ Sep 2012 #50
VOX Sep 2012 #56
hifiguy Sep 2012 #73
hifiguy Sep 2012 #75
rudycantfail Sep 2012 #33
bhikkhu Sep 2012 #35
LiberalAndProud Sep 2012 #36
Kablooie Sep 2012 #37
AzDar Sep 2012 #39
Blue Owl Sep 2012 #40
Octafish Sep 2012 #42
Schema Thing Sep 2012 #44
WillyT Sep 2012 #46
99Forever Sep 2012 #47
libodem Sep 2012 #49
Arugula Latte Sep 2012 #51
SaveOurDemocracy Sep 2012 #52
Uncle Joe Sep 2012 #53
LineReply ?
Uneeque Sep 2012 #54
Windy Sep 2012 #55
smirkymonkey Sep 2012 #58
JoeyT Sep 2012 #59
Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2012 #60
Sekhmets Daughter Sep 2012 #61
calimary Sep 2012 #62
colsohlibgal Sep 2012 #63
AllyCat Sep 2012 #64
janx Sep 2012 #65
Odin2005 Sep 2012 #67
idwiyo Sep 2012 #68
raouldukelives Sep 2012 #72
spanone Oct 2012 #77

Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:14 PM

1. Whoa, that was prophetic. nt

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Response to valerief (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:47 PM

15. Whoa. That was my thought, too. nt

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Response to valerief (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 03:10 AM

69. Not so much prophetic as just observant...

I'm afraid. I've noticed this same thing since I was an adult, but that's just since the 90's. I guess other people saw it well beforehand.

I honestly think we've entered a new dark age. This doesn't mean that things are going to go back to how they were before (as the medieval dark age was not like the earlier dark age), but that we'll see a kind of stagnation recognizably different from the sort of advances of the last five to six hundred years.

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Response to harmonicon (Reply #69)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 08:35 AM

70. Well, I didn't mean prophetic in a religious way.

I meant prophetic in hyperbolic observant way.

I have no clue what the future holds. I'll be dead for most of it anyway.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:14 PM

2. Brilliant Man....

I miss him....

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:15 PM

3. Demon-haunted World is the greatest non-fiction book of all time

 

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:39 PM

11. I must check it out. nt

 

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:14 PM

20. One of my favorite books.

I thought Al Gore's "The Assault on Reason" was pretty damn good too.

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #3)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:33 PM

57. yip a keeper on my bookshelf

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:16 PM

4. We're pretty much already at that point

People are 'teaching the controversy' of intelligent design, holding conferences about how Galileo and heliocentrism is wrong, and credit scores are the new phrenology.

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #4)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:41 PM

12. "holding conferences about how Galileo and heliocentrism is wrong"...

 

I would say "no way", but I have given up being surprised.

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:39 PM

45. I had to look up the heliocentric thing out of sheer disbelief.

 

You were correct.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/310901

Conservative Catholics say Galileo was wrong, geocentric is right

Chicago - A growing Conservative Roman Catholic movement is continuing to insist that Galileo Galilei was incorrect by his assertion that Earth revolves around the Sun and is not the center of the universe. The battle rages on between geocentrism and heliocentrism.




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Response to ck4829 (Reply #4)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:09 PM

25. It's not just science vs religion in the classical sense,...

 

....it's Reaganism which has become a belief system rivalling any religion. It's a religion that government is to blame for your misery. A religion that states that your boss would give you a raise if he could afford it but he can't because government is overtaxing him and forcing him to purchase expensive and unnecessary, often silly things to comply with liberal ideas of worker safety (assuming the worker is an idiot) or pollution requirements for things that don't pollute. It's a religion that says our greatest American President was a senile ex B movie actor who ate jelly beans. ("smart pills" as they were called at the time).

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:20 PM

5. that was his last book

 

and a must read

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:21 PM

6. Nailed it!

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:40 PM

7. One of my intellectual heroes.

 

A great man and a great mind.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:40 PM

8. the loss of Sagan is immeasurable...

I cannot help by think if he had lived longer that he would have used his gift for communicating complex scientific processes to the non-intiated and made a real differencem

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:35 PM

9. just wanted a few more eyes.

 

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:36 PM

10. Awesome book, brilliant human being. nt

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:45 PM

13. Sagan is a prime example of the kind of mind and guiding philosophy we should have long ago

sought as our "leaders" and the sort we must put into positions of power if we are to avoid suicide at worst and a new Dark Age at best with a fucked up corporate authoritarian state in the middle that will be a painful slip and slide into extinction.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #13)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:04 AM

34. A man who will be sadly missed.

 

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #13)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 08:54 AM

71. You are absolutely correct, and it just as absolutely not going to happen for many

 

generations, if at all. Americans are so invested in their mythologies that to even question them is an automatic disqualification from power. Can you imagine us electing a pot smoking atheist genius?

Of course almost as unlikely is the idea of a pot smoking atheist genius wanting to be elected to a political office.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:03 PM

16. K&R for Karl!

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:05 PM

17. Great man.

Last edited Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:42 AM - Edit history (1)

In addition to Cosmos and others he wrote one of my favorite Sci Fi books. Contact.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:06 PM

18. Sad K&R.

My dear Dad worried about that too.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:09 PM

19. One of my favorite books. The reason, though, that he was able to predict it so well is

because it's happened many times throughout history. History repeats itself and plays out in cycles. What has happened over the last 20-30 years isn't totally new; rather, it's simply a return to the Gilded Age.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:42 PM

21. So totally stealing that

When did he say that, anyways?

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Response to Canuckistanian (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:36 PM

66. 1997

Go here for an excerpt.

Popularizing science - trying to make its methods and findings accessible to non-scientists - then follows naturally and immediately. Not explaining science seems to me perverse. When you're in love, you want to tell the world. This book is a personal statement, reflecting my lifelong love affair with science.

But there's another reason: science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness. The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30-second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance. As I write, the number one video cassette rental in America is the movie Dumb and Dumber. Beavis and Butthead remains popular (and influential) with young TV viewers. The plain lesson is that study and learning - not just of science, but of anything - are avoidable, even undesirable.

We've arranged a global civilization in which most crucial elements - transportation, communications, and all other indus- tries; agriculture, medicine, education, entertainment, protecting the environment; and even the key democratic institution of voting - profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.

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Response to pokerfan (Reply #66)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 09:58 PM

76. Thank you

Published in 1995... astounding. I definitely have to read this.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:42 PM

22. After I read that book...

for a short while I used to refer to myself as a Saganite. I stopped when I realized he would have suggested I re-read the book.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:47 PM

23. One of my greatest heroes...


Lifting a glass to you Carl!

To a great American pioneer.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:52 PM

24. A great book book by a great man.

I have a copy in a bookcase in the room behind me at this moment.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:12 PM

26. Funny that you posted this

I bought DHW the day it was put on sale having eagerly awaited it's release. I have been thinking about that book the last two days.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:12 PM

27. There are a suprising number of people who believe swearing can cause a lightning strike.

 

No shit.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #27)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:24 PM

43. Well, that's just fucked up as all.... <<<<ZZZZZZAAAAPPPP>>>>>

Nope, sky's clear. Just a loose wire.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:13 PM

28. 1487 Views.

25 Recs.

Carl's foreboding was correct. Even DU is overwhelmingly STUPID.

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #28)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 06:43 AM

38. I think Sagan would take apart your post in short order

Not everyone on DU recommends every thread they agree with. Not every view of a post on DU is by a person - some are by bots for search engines. Views on DU are not unique visitors - click on a thread again, and it increases the view count.

Did you compare the views and recs to threads started at a similar time? If I look at the first page of GD now, I find this thread (106 threads, 1855 views) has the 5th highest ratio of recs to views - and higher than any other thread with more than 30 recs.

You're far too quick to call an entire group of people "overwhelmingly STUPID" just because they haven't reacted exactly the same as you, without comparing the thread against equivalents. Professor Sagan would not approve, I think.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:48 PM

29. Sagan was a pothead.

One more powerful reason for legalization.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #29)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 10:31 AM

41. I smoked a lot in the 70's but it didn't have the same effect on me.

 

Last edited Sun Sep 30, 2012, 07:34 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Whovian (Reply #41)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:24 PM

74. It did on me.

 

I was first able to really contemplate the universe as it truly is when I started smoking de 'erb mon. And I am no Carl Sagan.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:50 PM

30. K&R. n/t

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:17 AM

31. Various Carl Sagan quotes

 

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. it is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.) [Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection]


Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires intelligence, vigilance, dedication and courage. But if we don't practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us -- and we risk becoming a nation of suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along. [Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection]

In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. [Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address]

The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity. [Carl Sagan]

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe. [Dr. Arroway in Carl Sagan's Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985]

A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism. [Carl Sagan, Contact, pg 244]

You see, the religious people -- most of them -- really think this planet is an experiment. That's what their beliefs come down to. Some god or other is always fixing and poking, messing around with tradesmen's wives, giving tablets on mountains, commanding you to mutilate your children, telling people what words they can say and what words they can't say, making people feel guilty about enjoying themselves, and like that. Why can't the gods leave well enough alone? All this intervention speaks of incompetence. If God didn't want Lot's wife to look back, why didn't he make her obedient, so she'd do what her husband told her? Or if he hadn't made Lot such a shithead, maybe she would've listened to him more. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, why didn't he start the universe out in the first place so it would come out the way he wants? Why's he constantly repairing and complaining? No, there's one thing the Bible makes clear: The biblical God is a sloppy manufacturer. He's not good at design, he's not good at execution. He'd be out of business if there was any competition. [Sol Hadden in Carl Sagan's Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985), p. 285.]

(When asked merely if they accept evolution, 45 percent of Americans say yes. The figure is 70 percent in China.) When the movie Jurassic Park was shown in Israel, it was condemned by some Orthodox rabbis because it accepted evolution and because it taught that dinosaurs lived a hundred million years ago--when, as is plainly stated at every Rosh Hashonhan and every Jewish wedding ceremony, the Universe is less than 6,000 years old. [Carl Sagan, _The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark_, p. 325]

I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides. [Carl Sagan, 1996 in his article In the Valley of the Shadow Parade Magazine Also, Billions and Billions p. 215]

The politicians and the religious leaders and the weapons scientists have been at it for a long time and they've made a thorough mess of it. I mean, we're in deep trouble. [Carl Sagan, A&E Biography interview]

Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy. [Carl Sagan]

In many cultures it is customary to answer that God created the universe out of nothing. But this is mere temporizing. If we wish courageously to pursue the question, we must, of course ask next where God comes from? And if we decide this to be unanswerable, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed? [Carl Sagan, Cosmos, page 257]










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Response to mick063 (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:22 AM

32. Brilliant post. Thank you.

 

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Response to mick063 (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:55 PM

48. This one ...

Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy.


I love! Thank you!

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Response to BlueMTexpat (Reply #48)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:27 PM

50. Love that!

K&R for a fantastic thread on one of the best & most compassionate minds ever!

Carl, you were dearly loved & sadly missed!

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Response to mick063 (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:25 PM

56. Wow. Thanks so much for posting. n/t

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Response to mick063 (Reply #31)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:13 PM

73. Amazing. So much brilliance from one gifted man.

 

Cosmos changed my life and brought me out of the closet as an atheist.

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Response to mick063 (Reply #31)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:41 PM

75. Thank you. Sagan was the wisest man I have ever seen.

 

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:26 AM

33. Wow.

 

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:20 AM

35. That's a must-read book

I've given away three or four copies myself, and it was a big reason behind my going back to college a few years back.

Great quote - we're not there by a long shot (and I can't think of a better guy at the helm than Obama), but I still worry a lot about "kids these days" and the direction of the next generation...

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:47 AM

36. Brilliant.

I need to get me that book.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 04:42 AM

37. Published in 1996

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:06 AM

39. K & R

 

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 09:29 AM

40. Sorry to say you were right, Carl...

K&R

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:01 PM

42. ...a pale blue dot.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:32 PM

44. I read that book on exiting the fundamentalist cult that I had been raised in



It saved me years of wandering in darkness and changed my life for the positive in ways large and small.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:51 PM

46. K & R For Carl !!!

 






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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:53 PM

47. Sagan was one of a kind.

His brilliance is missed.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:15 PM

49. This comes to mind

OMFG

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:30 PM

51. One drop of hope:

 

The number of non-religious people in the U.S. continues to increase. I believe the Internet is helping that; people can talk amongst themselves about how the Emperor is butt nekkid.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:08 PM

52. A brilliant man, sorely missed. K&R

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:12 PM

53. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Whovian.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:13 PM

54. ?

 

Not sure I agree with the prophetic claim as he was merely repeating historical trends of class conflicts.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:23 PM

55. Wow...he nailed it. (He does look like Walowitz in that picture however.... :o)

sorry couldn't resist!

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:37 PM

58. K&R!

 

and posted to facebook. Brilliant quote. Thanks for that!

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 03:13 PM

59. There's another quote from that book that's even more chilling

and accurate when you read it with the benefit of hindsight:

I worry that, especially as the Millennium edges nearer, pseudo-science and superstition will seem year by year more tempting, the siren song of unreason more sonorous and attractive. Where have we heard it before? Whenever our ethnic and national prejudices are aroused, in times of scarcity, during challenges to national self-esteem or nerve, when we agonize about our diminished cosmic place and purpose, or when fanaticism is bubbling up around us—then, habits of thought familiar from ages past reach for the controls. The candle flame gutters. Its little pool of light trembles. Darkness gathers. The demons begin to stir.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 04:16 PM

60. One of my heroes. nt

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 05:12 PM

61. Frightening....and tragic.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 06:10 PM

62. Unsettling, isn't it!

He was a very learned man.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 06:12 PM

63. RIP Carl, You Were Taken Too Soon

What a brilliant mind, and not just concerning science. Let's hope the budding undumbing of The US people picks up steam.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:08 PM

64. From one of my favorite books!

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:12 PM

65. A brilliant man

and a brilliant writer.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:40 PM

67. I miss him.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 09:46 PM

68. K&R and one more quote.


Neither St. Augustine nor St. Thomas Aquinas considered early-term abortion to be homicide (the latter on the grounds that the embryo doesn't look human). This view was embraced by the Church in the Council of Vienne in 1312, and has never been repudiated. The Catholic Church's first and long-standing collection of canon law (according to the leading historian of the Church's teaching on abortion, John Connery, S.J.) held that abortion was homicide only after the fetus was already "formed"--roughly, the end of the first trimester.

But when sperm cells were examined in the seventeenth century by the first microscopes, they were thought to show a fully formed human being. An old idea of the homunculus was resuscitated--in which within each sperm cell was a fully formed tiny human, within whose testes were innumerable other homunculi, etc., ad infinitum. In part through this misinterpretation of scientific data, in 1869 abortion at any time for any reason became grounds for excommunication. It is surprising to most Catholics and others to discover that the date was not much earlier.

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 09:55 AM

72. If only we could attach our proverbial wagon to those thinking ahead.

Than those struggling to hold it back. I wouldn't say that it isn't that we can't knowledgeably question our leaders, it's that they can't knowledgeably answer us. When we can't even come to an agreement on what reality is, when the numbers and facts they rely on come from manipulated reports, how can they?

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Response to Whovian (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 10:01 PM

77. k&r...

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