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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSenators Working on Bipartisan Bill to Allow More U.S. Visas for Indians
April 3rd, 2012 by Abby Keane
Concern over restrictive visa policies towards employees may become a thing of the past if influential Senator from New York Chuck Schumer and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid had their way. The American Senator has assured that he is working towards a bipartisan bill to reform immigration laws that would allow more Indians into the U.S.
Senators Schumer and Reid met Indian-American hotelier and chairman of Indian-American Democrats, Sant Singh Chatwal at his hotel in Manhattan recently. During the meeting, they discussed the bilateral relations with India and concerns of the IT companies, like problems in getting H1-B visas and L-1 visas for their employees. Expressing appreciation for the Indian-American community and its contribution to the U.S., they said that issues regarding visas were being addressed and taken care of.
http://www.immigrationdirect.com/immigration-articles/senators-working-on-bipartisan-bill-to-allow-more-u-s-visas-for-indians/index.html
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xchrom
(108,903 posts)former-republican
(2,163 posts)
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)The unemployment rate for some fields is nonexistent, there is more of a shortage of people to fill the jobs. But, VISAs are a short-sighted and short-term fix for the problem. The solution is twofold. First find kids that show aptitude for engineering, science, Math, and high skilled crafts jobs and pay a large part of those people's educational expenses. Second, increase salaries for those jobs, companies are afraid to increase salaries because when the fields reach the point when enough talent is available, it will be difficult to align salaries with that reality.
I favor paying for educations as the best route along with counseling as kids maturate through college. A kid that came in to be an engineer can make a shift to say, medicine, in college if engineering fields that are in dire need of talent are filling. The kid should face no penalty, as a matter of fact, his or her medical training should be paid for as long as that kid agrees to work five or more years in locations that need medical professionals.
twins.fan
(310 posts)Thousands and thousands of US STEM workers are training their replacements.
The GAO completed a study for Congress in 2011 on the H1B visa. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d1126.pdf
The study reached the conclusion that 54% of the workers receiving the H1B visa were "Entry Level" workers. Only 6.0% of the workers are "Fully Competent." The conclusions are displayed on a table on page 58 and can also be viewed at http://techtalk.dice.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/918iBE2B98F5EE29FE1A/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1
Tech giants use these visas and other work visas to reduce labor costs, by importing cheap, entry level, submissive workers from the third world, primarily from India and Communist China. Sant Singh Chatwal has his own agenda for supporting the H1B visa. His friends are the owners of H1B body shops that send thousands and thousands of new workers to the US each year, displacing US STEM workers.
With only 6.0% of these workers being "Fully Competent," corporate training is either occurring directly or indirectly. Sometimes the STEM worker that is being replaced provides the training, sometimes it is in a classroom setting in the offices of the H1B body shop. Wouldn't it be nice for the kids graduating from college if today's corporations adopted the policies of training that corporations of yesteryear had? Half of today's college grads are not getting hired for jobs because corporations are either sending the jobs overseas to third world countries, or are importing the third world workers into the US to do the jobs. US workers are well qualified. US STEM workers just have a much higher cost of living.
And politicians, both Republican and Democratic are falling in line to meet the desires of their corporate sponsors.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)person, or a student that was trained and ready for the job slot. I have seen executed and have a preference for american born and trained workers because I know that they are rooted in this country. My experience tells me that your claim is based more upon emotion that fact, I am in the trenches with fact every day, I know what is really happening.
twins.fan
(310 posts)I have been "in the trenches" for a couple of decades too. I have seen evidence of it occurring in many different contexts. I am surprised that someone else "in the trenches" could be isolated to the extent that they have not witnessed it. You are in fact the first "in the trenches" person that I have ever encountered that is not aware of this fraud.
There is a big company called IBM, which used to employ 250,000 US workers. Now it employs less than 100,000 and the number is dropping as we speak. BTW, there are now 250,000 "employees" in India.
Maybe you should check this out: IBM: "The Cost Difference Is Too Great for the Business Not to Look for" H-1B Workers
twins.fan
(310 posts)Millions and millions of US STEM workers have been forced out of their jobs and careers. The official unemployment rate does NOT measure those people.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)It is not happening for Chemical Engineers, Materials Scientists, the majority of leading edge Electrical Engineering slots. Look, when people don't have required training it is insane to hire them, doing so creates an expensive mistake that damages a business.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)As of March 1, 2011, 4.6% of American Chemical Society members were unemployed, the highest level recorded since ACS began tracking employment in 1972, according to the society’s Membership & Scientific Advancement Division (M&SA). What’s more, unemployment for ACS chemists in 2011 climbed from a 3.8% level in 2010, whereas overall unemployment in the U.S. fell from 9.7% in 2010 to 8.8% in 2011, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
According to BLS, the unemployment rate for 2011 among “chemists and materials scientists” was 6.1%. “As the BLS rate is an average for the entire year, and the ACS 2011 number is based on employment status at one point in time, the BLS number may indicate that the ACS 2012 rate will exceed 4.6%,” says Elizabeth McGaha, manager of research and member insights in M&SA.
http://cen.acs.org/articles/90/web/2012/03/Unemployment-Data-Worst-40-Years.html
twins.fan
(310 posts)I was being interviewed for a job writing communication device drivers in assembly language. I had just graduated from a top-100 school in Computer Science. I had only taken one course in assembly language, no courses in device drivers.
At the end of the interview, I told the hiring manager that I did not think that I had the experience to do the job. He responded with PASSION, "Of course you can do the job!! You passed courses in Advanced Calculus (I had taken the first three courses in calculus, and then took two semesters of Advanced Calculus (as electives). You studied Operating System Theory. You took ..." He insisted that I was qualified and offered me the job, and I took it. And I did a tremendous job too!
Today is different. Job interviews are like mini-trivial pursuit games, designed to trip up candidates on minutia. In fact members of the AILA (American Immigration Lawyers Association) offer seminars and workshops instructing US corporations on legal maneuvers that enable them to exclude US STEM workers from employment.
I recently was interviewed for a job at Google and discussed it here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021125183 There, I nailed the interview, but I was not offered the job.
As more and more workers with H1B visas enter this country, employers become more and more selective. Again, the H1B visa is used to reduce labor costs, not to import highly skilled workers.
gkhouston
(21,642 posts)looking for a software job. I assumed I still didn't have enough experience to be interesting, even as a summer intern. My first day back from college, a high school friend of mine who was attending a different university asked me if I wanted to hang out and catch up. She needed to take her younger siblings to an club meeting. The meeting was at a local business, and while the kids were doing something or other in the 'puter lab, she and I talked about what we'd done the previous year, what courses we'd taken, etc. The employee who was there overseeing the kids heard us talking and offered me a job on the spot.
One of the jobs I was offered straight out of college was to work for an oil company as a geophysicist. They were in short supply at the time. I didn't know geophysics from a hole in the ground, but I was an EE and the recruiter told me the equations were the same and picking up the geology part would be easy by comparison. These days, recruiters want you to have been doing the exact job you're interviewing for for the past 5 years. The idea that you hire someone because they're generally competent, trainable, and not a psycho has long since fallen by the wayside.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)twins.fan
(310 posts)
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)twins.fan
(310 posts)The same is true for scientists, engineers, and mathematicians, of all levels of experience, of all ethnicities. They are leaving the profession, sometimes in a lateral move, sometimes accepting a much lower paying job, if they can find a lower paying job.
These people are not captured in unemployment reports.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)The H1B visa program bring in people to fill specific jobs, not fill jobs where the supply of workers is adequate. I agree that some unethical companies may try to take advantage of the program to force down salaries, but those companies should be dealt with using legal tools designed to make their behavior criminal.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)Engineering disciplines like Chemical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, high tech Materials Engineering have massive shortages of skilled trained workers. The situation is going to get worse, many of the people staffing jobs in those disciplines are a few years away from retirement and there is a nearly empty pipeline of american born, competently trained, citizen workers to replace them.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... what do hoteliers have to to with "higher education".
This whole "we have jobs but we can't fill them" is a crock of bullshit used to justify bringing in more foreign workers. Employers play all kinds of games with the "job requirements" to be sure Americans don't qualify, then when someone comes along who will work for 40% less suddenly the requirements are not so concrete.
Democrats falling for this bullshit should be drummed out of office.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)I doubt that anyone on this site is more pro american than I am. I have been working for several years to bring jobs back to this country that left. I spend hours shopping on built in the USA only sites looking for everything that I buy. But, what I won't tolerate is sacrificing of many jobs because of a hard headed refusal to fill a critical job opening with a person that has the skills to step in and do that job immediately.
The H1B program was designed to and if used right, temporarily fill jobs with foreign trained workers until an american born worker is trained to take and hold the job. Any company that is not working to that model should be heavily fined and have any government business taken away.
twins.fan
(310 posts)The GAO did a study on this issue in 2011. They found that 54% of the H1B visas were issued to "Entry Level" workers, and only 6.0% of the H1B visas were issued to "Fully Competent" workers. This graph appears on page 58 of the study.
twins.fan
(310 posts)Response to twins.fan (Reply #71)
HiPointDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)
TransitJohn
(6,937 posts)Fuckers. There are plenty of trained and ready to go American tech workers....plenty. They just don't want to work for peanuts.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)We just sent all our work to India and are in the process of laying off all US workers not willing to move overseas. See the banks don't want to give loans to companies that hire expensive Americans. No need to bring workers here.
Good thing we bailed out all those banks and are keeping them flush with cheap loans from the FED. With no requirement to loan to companies it's just another form of trickle down that doesn't work.
twins.fan
(310 posts)1. US corporation starts program to reduce labor costs.
2. Indian H1B body shop is hired with a group of recipients of the H1B visa.
3. Half of the US STEM workers are laid off. The remaining half are instructed to train workers with H1B visas.
4. Once workers with H1B visas are trained, the remaining US workers are laid off.
5. Once entire workforce of H1B workers are trained, US operations are dismantled and reassembled in India.
6. Corporations and sock-puppet politicians deny that it ever happened.
7. Corporate media publishes more stories touting the demand for more H1B visas.
This scenario has played out thousands of times over the past decade. The H1B visa is a crucial component to outsourcing and offshoring.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)It's what happened to animation before this. Been going on since the mid to late nineties. Probably before too. Love how higher ups lie the whole way about not worrying about overseas offices, encouaged people to train, etc until the day they call in remaing staff and tell them times up!
sendero
(28,552 posts)... where I work but it is not working out too well. Turns out that not all foreign workers, or even a majority in our case, are particularly bright or skilled.
twins.fan
(310 posts)That is pretty typical. Plus many have the handicap of not being able to speak English that well. If immigrant worker is able to survive the H1B visa expiration, many will never be able to get another job on an equal footing with US STEM workers, because of the language barrier when there is no cost benefit. For those who survive with their employer, the employer will pay a harsh penalty for the rest of their employment because of their language barrier.
Many employers across America are suffering from tech people with a language barrier. That can be a terrible problem for an employer in a competitive marketplace to have all of your tech expertise tied up in an employee who has poor English language skills.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)is being systematically defunded, dismantled and moved elsewhere, just as e.g. the industry of the north was moved to the south, then overseas, leaving rust-belt ghettos in its wake.
Only this time it's the whole country, excepting a few 'glittering' capitals of finance, e.g. NYC.
And the same process has been initiated in europe and japan.
twins.fan
(310 posts)It may be even bigger there.
Do you remember the news releases about BofA laying off workers? Well that is the tail end of Knowledge Transfer. That is happening after the jobs have been moved to India.
This is the story of KT at JP Morgan Chase.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)capitals of *finance* -- by which i mean FIRE sector -- the financial industries, basically. Just as the City of London is the glittering capital of finance in a deindustrialized, deskilled England.
A few capitals of great wealth, surrounded by a lot of poverty.
As for your post, I didn't mean for one specific industry -- I mean the process you outlined as a template for what's happening in *many* companies, in *many* industries or situations.
twins.fan
(310 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)twins.fan
(310 posts)gkhouston
(21,642 posts)"rec" is recommending the post. Go up to the OP (original post) of this thread and you should see a small "REC" box on the left hand side at the bottom of the post. K&R is a way of saying you approve of/agree with an OP and you want to give it more visibility.
twins.fan
(310 posts)twins.fan
(310 posts)When Bill Clinton and Chatwal accompanied each other to India years ago, Chatwal was arrested for some of his "entrepreneurial" activities in India. Since then Chatwal has become a hero, having been credit for orchestrating the nuclear transfer to India a few years ago. Chatwal was able to orchestrate that maneuver without any open political debate.
Chatwal was also able to maneuver himself onto the Board of Directors of a NYC bank, a bank that later loaned Chatwal millions of dollars, that Chatwal never repaid. The FDIC came in an bailed out the depositors of the bank. Chatwal has filed for bankruptcy at least 62 times. In spite of being unable to repay those loans and being unable to pay NYC property taxes, Chatwal has funneled millions of dollars into the pockets of Bill and Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer.
jsr
(7,712 posts)Sickening.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)#1 reason why your post got no responses.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)Our energy grid need talented programmers and computer engineers to develop systems that transfer energy more efficiently. Farmers need more robots on farms to make food cheaper and provide better protection against problems like lack of rain, over use of soil and so forth. The problem is that some of the people hear about a smart electrical grid and they get thoughts of the government spying on them while they are smoking weed, through their electrical outlets. They hear about robots on farms and they yell factory farms. There is as much paranoia on our side as there is on the right.
twins.fan
(310 posts)what our corporate executives want. They want more money, PERIOD! To advance our country's needs, that road doesn't pass through what corporate America wants. They want more money, and reducing labor costs by hiring cheap, entry level, submissive third world workers is a good starting point for them.
Hutzpa
(11,461 posts)what about other nations? Are Indians the only smart people on the planet?
twins.fan
(310 posts)There are IT shops all across America that are almost exclusively young Indian workers, especially for companies in Manhattan, like Bloomberg for instance.
Hutzpa
(11,461 posts)Why only India, what about Asians, Africans, South Americans etc.
twins.fan
(310 posts)First of all, there are a ton of Indian H1B body shops like Infosys, Tata, Satyam, Wipro, Cognizant, etc. Now IBM is becoming an India H1B body shop too. HP is following along with IBM being HP's prototype. Microsoft years ago signed an exclusive with Infosys. So a ton of Microsoft's workers here in the US actually work for Infosys.
The self promotion used to glorify the Indian H1B body shops has been coupled with the narrative designed to discredit US STEM workers, designed to discredit US schools, designed to discredit everything in the US, when the real purpose of this whole narrative is to replace US workers with cheaper third world workers.
gkhouston
(21,642 posts)
Hutzpa
(11,461 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 30, 2012, 12:17 PM - Edit history (1)
it really amazes me how folks here are trying to make the case in other to deprive other nations.
Lasher
(29,577 posts)Don't think so.
gkhouston
(21,642 posts)to Africa and Asia, IIRC.
Lasher
(29,577 posts)Your bias is showing.
gkhouston
(21,642 posts)Lasher
(29,577 posts)If your argument had any merit, most of the visas would be going to the nations I mentioned and not to India.
gkhouston
(21,642 posts)Workers in the countries you mention would be more expensive than Indians, just as US workers are.
To big corporations, it's all about the money--where can we find the cheapest labor that's easy to handle? Yes, there are excellent workers in other English-speaking countries, but the multinationals would rather not pay for them. A lot of India is desperately poor and there's not a language barrier, so they've gone for the low-hanging fruit.
I actually think it's a big mistake. But speculating that that's their motive is not the same thing as saying I approve of the scheme. In reality, it's a stinkingly bad idea. The Indians I've known who work in STEM are great on theory but lousy implementers because of the education they've received. And they often work poorly in teams because they've come from an intensely competitive educational system where teamwork is not valued. So you can end up with a bunch of employees who are well-educated in theory, but not that adept at implementing the theory, and they don't work together. Not a good way to get things done.
It would actually make more sense to go to the countries you mention because you'd be more likely to get people who will work well in teams, but that would cost the companies. They're in this endless circle of chasing the cheapest labor and don't care if the result is crappy--and they don't care that the unemployed workers they've abandoned can no longer afford to buy their stuff. Their answer to that is to go ever cheaper, but we're going to reach a point where there's no one left to sell to because no one has any money to buy things.
gulliver
(13,985 posts)I'm personally in IT, and I would actually like to see a lot more citizenship opportunities for Indian Americans. I'm still for restricting temporary work Visas (except as a pathway to full citizenship) and against outsourcing. But if there are talented Indians in any profession, especially outsource-able ones, I think America should be recruiting them here for citizenship.
Here is how I look at it. First, Indian Americans are just Americans. Talented Indian Americans in this country just means America has more talent. Talented Indians in India means more job outsourcing. Indian Americans are probably as leery of outsourcing as any other Americans.
Second, Indian Americans grow and improve America's economy, because they are American consumers. They buy homes, services, and products right here in America. That is good for the housing market, and good for jobs.
Third, but not least important, Indian Americans are good people. It should go without saying if you have met or worked with them.
Fourth, they are heavily Democratic in their political leanings. Obama has about 85% support among Indian Americans now.
I'm against the Romney-style Republican capitalism that makes special loopholes in laws so that some businesses can more profitably outsource American jobs. But I'm for more Indian Americans in this country.
Hutzpa
(11,461 posts)what kind of BS is that?
gulliver
(13,985 posts)It's actually better for America and its workers IMO. Let's take my profession for example, IT. I'm a software developer. Indian IT workers in this country compete with me for work. And if that were the only factor in the big picture, then I would be against Indian IT talent immigration and Indian temporary work visas.
I remain against H-1B and L-1s, because they are temporary, non-immigrant visas. I think they should be strictly limited as they are and are being gamed by business. But—even from a strictly selfish perspective—I would like to see a lot more green cards going to top Indian IT talent. If they work here and have citizenship, then they can (must in fact) ask for more compensation than they can get in India. In a world of outsourcing, it actually makes them less competitive with me and drives up compensation for IT.
From a product perspective, it is also a big win, because it puts them in close, day-to-day contact and in the same timezone as business and IT process workers in America. That creates a much more coherent development process. Increasing Indian IT immigration reduces competition and enhances collaboration.
From a business process worker perspective it is also a win, IMO. Business processes are just as outsource-able as IT processes. So it makes sense for American business process leaders to try to get the IT talent local. It is harder to supervise non-local workers, so there is a pull to bring those workers here or, on the other hand, send business and supervisory work there.
Outsourcing changes everything. I'm seeing the changes myself. The jobs are now free to follow talent. We want the talent here, IMO. Here, Indian IT workers benefit countless other non-IT workers too. As I said, Indians here buy houses, they consume products and services here. The key is to get them to stay here as citizens.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)The only benefit this offers to American workers it it puts them OUT of work and lowers the salaries of those who still keep their jobs.
In short: there is no benefit.
twins.fan
(310 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)"Talented Indian Americans in this country just means America has more talent."
Subtext: Cheaper replacement workers. That's the kind of BS in it.
twins.fan
(310 posts)There is no shortage of workers. There is a shortage of jobs. Bringing in Indians to flood the market in any profession is a bad idea.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)Most people posting don't understand why H1B exists and why it is important to keep the visa program. If H1 B goes away, our economy will follow it because american born talent won't be developed. Your point on Indian people coming here and staying is real, I know of several people that came over on H1B visas that applied for citizenship and bought homes. And, they are just as concerned about outsourcing as I am.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)These are people who will buy houses, hire plumbers and electricians, eat out in restaurants, buy stuff in stores, creating jobs for people here in all kinds of ways.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Why won't India let us go over there to work? Can you answer that?
Of course not. This is all about removing Americans from the global labor force and you know it.
twins.fan
(310 posts)The work visas are used to reduce labor costs, not to import highly skilled workers. These work visas are being used to REPLACE US STEM workers with cheap workers.
treestar
(82,383 posts)buy houses, hire plumbers and electricians, eat out in restaurants, buy stuff in stores, creating jobs for people here in all kinds of ways.
You neglected to deal with that part of the post. There is a point there, that it is better than outsourcing. The plumbers, electricians, etc. lose by outsourcing but gain by more immigrants being in the US.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)What is your problem with American workers having jobs? Of course you won't answer that.
Why can't American workers go get tech jobs in India, but yet their workers can come here? You most CERTAINLY will not answer that. You never do.
twins.fan
(310 posts)Foreign workers on H1B visas, especially from India, used to supplement the workforce. Now they are replacing US STEM workers.
There are actually Indian H1B body shops that specialize in liberating US jobs and taking them back to India, like Tata, Infosys, Wipro, Cognizant, etc.
http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/newss/outsourcing111.html
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)He or she feels that American workers are too privileged and that American workers' wages are much too high.
There is a fundamental dislike there for the working class in this country.
twins.fan
(310 posts)Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Treestar is famous for comments like saying American workers need to lower their standard of living and implying that offshoring is a way to make that happen.
If you post a thread citing the way globalism has destroyed America's working class, you are almost guaranteed to be visited at least once with some pro-globalist propaganda by treestar or Pampango.
These two have absolutely no love or compassion for American workers and they were probably here when the DU used to be very friendly toward globalism. It's a totally upside down world for them now as the offshoring of American jobs has fallen to just above a drug crazed Freeper invasion on the ladder of DU popularity.
twins.fan
(310 posts)A few years ago, one of the executives for an H1B body shop made a similar comment in public. Another executive for an Indian H1B body shop called the H1B visa the offshoring visa, because of how the H1B is so crucial to the offshoring of US jobs to India.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)It's all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!
America will truly be the new Rome once all of our major industries are owned, operated, outsourced and replaced by foreigners that will just go home when it is convenient.
This will be the doom of America and turn it into a shithole. Why some on the left embrace this as a benefit in greatly curious.
treestar
(82,383 posts)If they didn't do that, then there would be no problem. Except for the immigrants, which you see as a problem, but they are a different one.
In the choice between Indians stealing our jobs and coming here to do it, versus staying in India to do it, it's better they are here.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)What is your problem with American workers having jobs?
What is it with you and h1b's and outsourcing jobs overseas?
You've got nothing to offer American workers but unemployment, unemployment, and more unemployment.
You offer no reason why they should support opening our job market to h1b's OR offshoring. It's bleeding the working class DRY. And you like that! 
treestar
(82,383 posts)You still have not seen the point.
And you personally attack without even reading.
We were saying it's better for the American worker if the Indians are here rather than the operation being outsourced to India. Can you get that through your skull? It's the brain drain, which worked well for the US. The problem you complain of is that the brains are now staying in India or China. Our STEM people will get jobs, it's the unfilled ones they are talking about, the ones that went to foreigners - let the foreigners come here rather than move the operation to where they are.
Of course I'll get a reply and nothing to the issue, just another rant about how I'm such an anti-American.
twins.fan
(310 posts)Now the H1B visa recpients are being used to replace US workers.
Some of the workers that came to the US on an H1B visa, are now citizens, and now they are falling victim to the same fraud that destroyed the jobs of people that they replaced. The ex-H1B workers are becoming victims themselves, and finding jobs without the benefit of the cost differential is very, very difficult to find, especially when that disadvantage is accompanied with a language barrier, especially when they have a weak command of the English language.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Why can't American workers go get a STEM job in India?
What is your problem with American workers having jobs? We have tons of unemployed STEM people here who need jobs. Can't you get that through YOUR SKULL?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)the operation being outsourced to India.
Strange that there are only two choices, but the real underlying figure is money.
It is cheaper for corporations to outsource or bring in cheap foreign labor while still charging the same price for their product.
That's the problem.
If American tech workers don't like their new gig as a starbucks barista then perhaps they can find a nice warm place under the bus.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)with all the people the H1B holders replaced. So they're making about ten bucks an hour. Sometimes twelve if they supply ten thousand dollars worth of tools and their own truck.
It's why I don't do HVAC/Electrical work anymore. If you're an electrical engineer, it's not a huge leap to be an electrician when you're out of a job because your field was flooded with people that get paid a tenth what you used to.
twins.fan
(310 posts)Clinton was selling us out.
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9178806/_Elena_s_Inbox_details_H_1B_battle_in_Clinton_White_House?taxonomyId=70&pageNumber=1
'Elena's Inbox' details H-1B battle in Clinton White House]
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9178806/_Elena_s_Inbox_details_H_1B_battle_in_Clinton_White_House?taxonomyId=70&pageNumber=1
twins.fan
(310 posts)"In fact, the administration threatened to veto any cap increase unless it came with significant reforms that ensured that American workers weren't harmed by the H-1B program," said Hira. "But as we now know from these e-mails, the Clinton administration caved in to the special interests of industry, leaving American workers high and dry, and leaving the huge loopholes in the H-1B program in place."
Even in a climate in which the IT employment market was exploding and unemployment in general was low, Hira said, "the flaws in the H-1B program were front and center in [Clinton White House] thinking."
closeupready
(29,503 posts)liberal on social issues, conservative on fiscal ones.
twins.fan
(310 posts)When I discovered how entrenched Bill and Hillary Clinton are in the H1B visa fraud, I was crushed! To discover that Bill Clinton signed the bill that tripled the number of H1B visas, after saying he would veto it, was devastating to me. Then I discovered the Clintons' close relationship with Sant Singh Chatwal, and my understanding of the conspiracy all of a sudden came together.
I voted for Bill Clinton twice, and then I discovered that he signed the bill that destroyed the careers of millions of US STEM workers, after US STEM workers all across America supported him and Hillary. I was devastated. 
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Indeed, it is incredibly true that geeks back then were neo Republican and they did support this crap. I ran afoul of this, big time.
First, their history.
There was a semi-famous article featured on Slashdot.org, the one-time huge geek forum hangout, by a woman who criticized the geek culture as being anti-social, immature and emotionally stunted. Dammit if I cannot find that damned article, it would be so incredibly relevant here. She totally did not get it because she didn't understand the origins of the problem.
While some geeks grew up in a relatively healthy environment, most of these kids grew up dealing with not only rejection but hostility and violent dislike of their lifestyle. "Revenge of the Nerds" paled in comparison to the abuse these kids took in school, and in many cases their parents did not understand their love of electronics, science and all that. The lack of understanding of, and often intolerance toward their lifestyle, bred alienation and withdrawal and the withdrawal gave the impression that they were anti-social, and it fed into a vicious cycle. Outsiders would say that social skills atrophied dramatically - the reality was, it became a full-blown cultural gap. It did not help that geeks developed a defensive reflex of "I'm better than these folks" (which is what motivated the HACKER scene in which the more extremist and most alienated of geeks would routinely terrorize the public by hacking everything they could get their hands on, think: net-Jihad).
Then came that thing called neo-Republicanism. You might also know it as Libertarian-ism. Libertarian politics is all about "leave me alone", which spoke strongly to geeks. In a world that makes fun of you and targets you for violence and pranks and wedgies, "leave me alone" is a HELL of a siren song. It took on the role of comforter, protector and advocate for a culture that had nothing but enemies among its peers. And that whole "I'm better than most" mentality? It fed into the strength of the Libertarian siren song by making them feel that they didn't need the Government to help them, they were skilled enough to handle their own business. They felt above the market, beyond it, in a word: ubermensch. They felt that losing your job, or even being vulnerable to such, was for the losers down the evolutionary ladder. If you were a real geek, such things did not concern you, they were beneath you. Who needed Government when you were so superior? And for a long time, those feelings seemed justified. The rising waters of globalism did not seem to be enough to reach them. Therefore, if you were scared of offshoring, you were untermensch... a "child of a lesser God", to rip off a movie title.
This attitude trickled downstream to the lesser geeks who felt that if they worshipped the guys upstream, they would live on financial Mount Olympus with them. They just had to be as disdainful of the common man's interests as their higher-ups were, and things would be fine, the market would be merciful to them. Sound familiar? Yup, you see the same mentality among Republican working class men: the uber-psychophant.
Enter, me. A geek who took his lumps in school, fought back more often then just sulked away, and had a passable, average dating life - laughably inadequate by alpha male standards, yet fairly enviable by geek standards. The trope plays quite straight here, as the drawback was I was not a top geek. I was not of the skill level to crack copy protection, break into mainframes or code the next big Java-level programming language, etc. However, I dabbled heavily into tech stuff and when the Tech Boom happened, I was in a PRIME position to get a middle-class job in the field. So I ran into these hard core geeks and I also ran into the creeping waters of globalism. I saw the threat, and not being a ubermensch techie, I saw my middle class lifestyle being washed away by a future tsunami: offshoring and h1b visa madness. This was the late 1990s.
The geeks would, of course, have none of my chicken little nonsense. If I couldn't hack it, I deserved to be washed away by globalism. When the big geek Mecca-equivalent forum Slashdot.org came online, you didn't go on there and bash globalism. Such posts got flamed to a crisp, and also modded down, big time. (Members of Slashdot can vote to "mod" or raise or lower any post's rating. It's a primary feature of the site.)
Fast forward to now. The geeks are no longer so unanimously sure of Libertarianism, much less globalism. What the hell happened? What happened was the rising tide of globalism drowned the lesser geeks out of the job market: those same geeks who previously played the role of uber-sycophant and who got scythed out by offshoring and h1b's. Some uber geeks still believe globalism doesn't affect them, but those who see the talent coming from overseas, and the lesser ones still working in the cubicles? They tremble, some just a little bit, others a lot.
I've been on Slashdot a lot in just the last 5 years and anti-offshoring and anti-h1b posts that are well-reasoned and relevant to the topic, almost always get modded up. WAY up, as high as a 5 in some cases. If you were on Slashdot in the beginning (my userid is one of the 5 digit ones, just to show how ancient it is), you understand just how unbelievably dramatic this change is.
Libertarianism, meanwhile, has declined in a big way in popularity. Civil libertarianism has flourished, of course, but the laissez-faire side has gone to the dog house. A lot of the geeks have come to learn that laissez-faire means corporations have a right to decide how you use the Internet and that the big evil collectivist Government nanny state coming in and enforcing Net Neutrality ain't such a bad thing after all. The same opinion shift and reality check has occurred in meatspace, too.
Closeupready, perhaps when you wrote "Most computer geeks were neo-Republican", it means that you are one of few who understand how profoundly things have changed in the geek culture. It is truly jaw-dropping.
twins.fan
(310 posts)In my early work environment, I ran into some Libertarian types, some right wing nut jobs, and some Democrats. Generally, I was the person on the most distant left of the group. I was sorta part of the hippy culture, that is especially if it would help me score some babes. You might say I was a pragmatic lefty, and BTW I still am.
I did notice the irony when the Libertarian types were swept up by the activity that they had supported.
I have worked for some big companies and small, influential tech companies and startups. I have had my own experiences doing the entrepreneurial stuff, having brief success and outright failure. I have seen some of the dynamics, working on both coasts and in the central US. I have had professional relationships with a wide variety of techies, and I am telling you that I see excellent engineers being dropped out of their careers in favor of cheap labor coming primarily from India.
We have gotta fight back! The US STEM worker is being mocked, taunted, and smeared by the people and institutions that benefit from this fraud!
closeupready
(29,503 posts)I'm certain there are tons of people for whom your experience is almost identical. 
And yes, your post really sums it all up well, how things happened. You should find a way to make that post an OP.
gkhouston
(21,642 posts)flavor of geek in academia. For starters, most of them had parents who were also techie types, or who at least weren't surprised that their kids were. A lot of Dems and Greens and only two Libertarians that I recall.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)"Cheap goods are good for the economy! What do you mean 'Watch out or you'll be next.'? I am a Producer: Absolutely irreplaceable. None can challenge my Galtian Might! For I am....Why's that guy coming this way with a pink slip?"
I was routinely laughed at for pointing out that when the companies had outsourced as many blue collar jobs as possible the IT field was the next logical overhead for them to eliminate. Now all the guys I've kept up with from the field are all like "Ayn Rand? Nope, doesn't really ring a bell." They all went from Galtian Supermen to labor liberals and don't remember having done it, despite some of them claiming to have photographic memories.
Accounts and low to mid-level managers take note: Once they get rid of these expensive engineers, y'all are next.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Foreign CEOs earn billion dollar salaries, but those are dollars in their currency, which is almost always FAR cheaper than our currency. Those CEOs overseas will build their own companies and COMPLETELY out-compete us here on price, and run even our traitorous CEOs out of the market, along with the entire "American" company they represent.
Remember what Toyota did to the Big Three? Yeah, that. Had the Japanese Yen remained as cheap as it was decades ago, and their cars were actually CHEAPER than the Big Three? There would be no Ford, GM or Chrysler by now.
People have no idea how Japan's rising yen saved the Big Three from total market annihilation.
sendero
(28,552 posts).. that we feel that it is time to organize an effort to replace them in the senate, as they have clearly forgotten who they work for.
twins.fan
(310 posts)to explain their position on the H1B visa? If you get an answer, it will be a claim that they don't know what it is. I don't know whether to believe them or not. Some may be telling the truth; some are probably not.
But many Democratic politicians are getting tons of money from those who benefit from the H1B visa and other work visas. So, not understanding the H1B visa may be a very handy tale for politicians in a pinch.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)to Schumer and Reid or do we need a football game to get riled up?
twins.fan
(310 posts)There is tons of money funneling into the pockets of politicians from campaign contributors who benefit from these work visas that are displacing millions of US STEM workers from their jobs and careers.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)and labor needs to give him a hefty slap upside the head.
twins.fan
(310 posts)The only reason that this is happening, is because we are letting it happen. There are very few Democrats, or Republicans for that matter, who are sincerely concerning themselves with the victims of this work visa scam. We are getting thrown under the bus. Unless we stand up for ourselves, nobody will.
jsr
(7,712 posts)Our kids can't run an Xbox and our engineers are too stupid to use Facebook 
twins.fan
(310 posts)A 2010 article published by the NASSP (National Association of Secondary School Principals) took a closer look at how the U.S. scores on the PISA (Program for International Student Assessment) compared with the rest of the world’s scores once they took into consideration the socioeconomic status of the students...
U.S. students enrolled in schools with less than 10 percent of its students in poverty significantly outperform the world: The 551 score bested both Finland, which scored 536 and had a poverty rate of 3.4 percent, and the Netherlands, which has a 9 percent poverty rate and a score of 508.
Students in U.S. schools with a poverty rate of between 10 percent and 24.9 percent rank third, just behind Korea and Finland.
U.S. kids who attend schools with a poverty rate of between 25 and 50 percent are 10th in the world, and those who attend a school with more than 50 percent of its students in poverty are near the bottom worldwide...
The rub is that of all the nations participating in the international assessment, the United States by far has the largest number of students living in poverty. The overall poverty rate in the United States was 21.7 percent in 2010. The next closest country was New Zealand, which had a poverty rate of 16.3 percent...Denmark had the lowest instance of poverty, with only 2.4 percent of its population existing below the poverty line...
Hutzpa
(11,461 posts)Reddit, LinkdIn etc.
jsr
(7,712 posts)Heck, the phone. And the light bulb too.
Hutzpa
(11,461 posts)and the internet, 
Americans are not good for anything except to eat, it's not enough the jobs are going overseas they now want to bring overseas to America.
Obama's policy must be working.
on point
(2,506 posts)There is no shortage. This is a corp fraud to get workers for cheap, and under cut american workers.
So take em at their word. No suitable american staff, OK, then here is your temp H1b visa solution, but for each every visa, for each and every year of that visa, you corp are going to contribute 100K towards the education of american workers either in college or in skilled trades program.
Now that it is no longer cheaper to pay more an american worker, are you SURE there aren't any suitable americans you can hire??
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)After all, the greatest nation on God's Green Earth can't depend on foreign labor forever anymore than we can depend on foreign oil.
Add to that a mandatory drop in visas according to the new talent completing their programs. Since this is temporary, right?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)
twins.fan
(310 posts)
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Just no.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)situation?
a few may benefit, but it would be useless to the majority.
every job offshored here has a ripple effect on the larger economy, destroying more jobs all down the chain -- retail, real estate, services, etc. should those people move to india as well?
closeupready
(29,503 posts)to do likewise, if we so choose.
As to who it benefits or how many, that's completely irrelevant.
Schumer and Reid don't seem to care that American workers stand to lose everything, and South Asians stand to gain. There is no downside here for India; it's all up. The downside is completely to American workers.
Shame on both of them. 
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)in wage scales.
the only upside is for the corporations & financiers and a relative handful of high-paid workers.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)If an American wants to take that job, they should have rights equal to an Indian. Even if it pays $500 per year.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Response to HiPointDem (Reply #115)
closeupready This message was self-deleted by its author.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)and I am talking oranges, I'm going to ignore any further flames from you unless I see understand what it is that has you upset, and why we are attacking each other when we are on the same side, on the surface.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)work in india.
and when you told me "it's none of your business" that felt like flaming to me, too. that was a personal remark, whereas i'd made no personal remark.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)In this thread, we are discussing opening up the American jobs market to foreign nationals, without any reciprocity or consideration for Americans who want those jobs.
twins.fan
(310 posts)US STEM workers could probably perform some MIRACLES for India. Plus, the *REAL* best and brightest could gain some leverage here in the US.
tarheelsunc
(2,117 posts)
Instead of importing workers, why don't we just improve education for Americans so they can seek those jobs? This is even more unamerican than exporting jobs. My Chinese WIFE and I have to wait several months for her to get a visa to come here and be with me, but they'll just give an Indian a free pass into the country so they can take a well-paying American job away? I am appalled that Reid and Schumer would stoop to this level.
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)That there is a dearth of qualified US STEM applicants that strikes me as bullshit.
It is no secret that corporations are always looking to cut costs.
Northeastern union manufacturing employees and high taxes putting a crimp in your bottom line? No problem. Move your operations south where unions are not respected and take advantage of that and the lower tax rates.
The standard of living in the South going up because you moved all your manufacturing there, putting a crimp in your bottom line? No problem. Move your operations to the southwest.
The standard of living in the Southwest going up because you moved all your manufacturing there, putting a crimp in your bottom line? No problem. Move your operations to China or another place where labor costs are practically nil.
Now that we've almost completely exported manufacturing, other things that they do were going to be next for the chopper.
It's not that there aren't enough US STEM workers to fill jobs, they just don't want to pay them what they'd expect to be paid. So just fabricate the idea of a shortage, and whammo.
twins.fan
(310 posts)that the world has ever seen.
We created this technology. Now we are not qualified? That is BULL!
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)
Teamster Jeff
(1,598 posts)They will lie, steal and cheat to get it
jsr
(7,712 posts)Employees are fungible. Always minimize your cost of labor to near zero if you can.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)taking ours away? How many Americans have lost their jobs due to corporations going for lower-paid foreign worker?
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/are-americans-losing-high-skilled-jobs-to-foreigners/
But opponents of the program say it simply takes away jobs that could have gone to U.S. workers and the idea by companies that there’s a shortage of high-skilled U.S. workers is just a myth.
“H1B workers tend to work longer hours, they are not going to discuss their wages, some of them don’t have families – if they do they are not here in this country – they are the perfect worker as far as big corporations are concerned,” Wedel said. “I can understand why they do it. It is a perfect business move, but it is not right.”
http://www.wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-news/2012/jul/16/h1b/
It’s the top complaint of one of the city’s fastest growing industries: tech companies can’t find enough engineers and computer programmers for their growing businesses.
But the companies that take greatest advantage of a government program to import foreign talent to fill those roles are also the ones in the business of taking jobs out of the country.
“What we’ve got basically is an immigration system here that’s speeding up the off-shoring of jobs,” said Ron Hira, a professor at the Rochester Institute of Technology and leading critic of the program.
For all the bla bla that comes out of the mouths of politicians about putting America back to work one has to ask why H1Bs are allowed at all in such high numbers; when unemployment is so high among Americans.
How much do imported foreign workers make compared to their American counterparts?
What kind of crap will they take just to stay in the USA?
Why do Americans put up with this garbage?
If our esteemed politicians could import huge numbers of Chinese sweatshop workers and work without the basic human rights how long do you think it would take them to pas that bill?