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[CTyankee]

This message was self-deleted by its author (CTyankee) on Sun Oct 25, 2020, 04:47 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Squinch]

1. Consenting adults. Hillary got over it, I certainly have no reason not to.

[CTyankee]

5. Personally yes, I agree. I'm talking about people we put in power in the WH.

An otherwise good administration run by good people who have Democratic principles can be ruined by the chief executive's personal behavior.

This isn't a moral issue to me. It's a question of presidential discretion and judgement.

[Squinch]

18. But it wasn't ruined. He built a great economy and the country was competently

run during his administration.

My problem with Donny Bodybags is that he has screwed over the American people on a daily basis. He is murdering people on a daily basis. He steals from us on a daily basis. And he lies to us constantly about life and death things.

If Bill had broken a law, it would have been different. But he didn't. He did nothing to US. He did things to people in his personal life that I don't respect. That enters my opinion of him as a person, but not my opinion of him as a President.

[Polly Hennessey]

29. President Clinton ruined no one's

Democratic principles. They were consenting adults. She knew what she was doing and he knew what he was doing. The abhorrent grifters now in the White House are leaving a stain that is far worse.

[CTyankee]

41. Of course he didn't, but that's not the question.

I voted for him twice knowing his background. I didn't want to LOSE a Democrat in the White House! I didn't want the repukes to win!

My argument is that he was the most powerful man in the world and he could have stopped her. He knew what the repukes were doing. Why risk a Democrat in the White House? Yes, the hypocrisy was outrageous, but people do what they have the power to do. Thank goddess they were stopped but we sure had a waste of time and effort that could have been used to work on our agenda as Democrats in the first place!

[FreeState]

2. I really don't care

Sex is sex who cares? Really it’s the hypocrisy that bothers me.

[lame54]

3. Where is this coming from?

[CTyankee]

6. It's something I had thought long about at the time.

[Skittles]

4. of course his behavior was wrong

but Monica was NOT a child - I was a sergeant in the Air Force at her same age

why bring this up now?

[CTyankee]

9. Sorry. I shoudn't let my mind wander from our purpose.

[SMC22307]

15. Please stick to decisions about Halloween candy.

There's no reason to re-hash this now, just over one week from an unbelievably important election in which "our purpose" is to dump Trump.

[marie999]

31. UCMJ Article 134, fraternization.

One reason is an officer has power over an enlisted person the same as a president has power over an intern.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. I thought it was sleazy then and still do, but IMO it wasn't an impeachable offense.

It didn't affect his actions as president or harm the national interest; the panty-sniffing of Ken Starr and the GOP was far more damaging than Bill's BJs, as reprehensible as that behavior was.

[TheRealNorth]

16. +1

[LizBeth]

8. Monica was in her twenties, young, but an adult. I think Clinton was beyond wrong, but love HRC.

I know HRC does not have any ownership in this.

Way back then, regardless how I felt about Clinton, it was wrong they went after him with impeachment, that they put the trial up and stomped all over the Constitution and I voted for Clinton for the simple fact Republicans behavior was so much worse.

[CTyankee]

13. Yes. Impeachment was a hypocritical act.

But it did uncork some nice Republican scandals for us to salivate over. I have fond memories of the Gingrich stuff. I remember him being such a shitty clown.

[SMC22307]

10. Why are you bringing this up now?

Bizarre.

[CTyankee]

19. Yes, I know. FWIW, I think it is a lesson we won't have to learn again.

[hlthe2b]

11. "immoral" consenting behavior that doesn't violate ones' oath of office should be dealt

with at the ballot box, not via impeachment. I thought that then and I think that now.

And never more than after a totally immoral President who not only violated their Oath of Office repeatedly, but likewise broke the law in areas evident as well as likely--i.e., those not yet proven-- yet remained in office despite impeachment.

By comparison, Clinton's behavior, though unPresidential, for sure, hardly justified impeachment. It was political "payback," not based on any principled response.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. Too long ago to worry about it-- it's the province of historians now.

[Ms. Toad]

14. In order to be able to consent, you have to be free to refuse to consent.

When a girl insists that she was the aggressor, and wanted sex with the much older man, it is still statutory rape (and should be). The same dynamics were present here.

So yes, Clinton was responsible.

Biden has personal boundary issues - likely an inability to read when his physical contact is not welcome. I don't have any sense it is based on power dynamics or malevolence. Just a bit of cluelessness. (The same way he is clueless about his verbal gaffes.) He has been made aware of it - and it seems to be working on addressing it.

No doubts about Obama or Carter.

[CTyankee]

24. I had forgotten about the "personal boundaries" issue. It was such a minuscule thing, really.

no comparisons of course and Trump is such a moral cesspool, like no other president we have ever had, IMO.

[Ms. Toad]

26. It's not really miniscule -

as someone who has had their personal boundaries violated by friends who were clueless.

But - just as I was able to have a heart-to-heart with the one whose friendship was valuable to me, I'm pretty sure Biden's is cluelessness not evil.

And completely agreed as to Trump.

[CTyankee]

42. I meant minuscule as it pertains to the great national issues we were facing at the time.

I guess you could argue that the repukes played such as bad role they besmirched their reputations and made them look like self serving idiots. Perhaps that was a good outcome.

[shrike3]

28. Statutory rape involves whether or not the woman or man was old enough

to consent. Lewinsky was certainly old enough to consent. So I do not think statutory rape is the correct term, no.

[Ms. Toad]

33. I was comparing the dynamics.

The power dynamics between an adult and a child are similar to the power dynamics between the president of the United States and a much younger intern.

I did not suggest that what occurred WAS statutory rape. I compared the dyamics.
There are a lot of similar dynamics (boss, employee; professor, student, etc.) It is part of the mantra for anyone involved in rape crisis work, that if you don't have the abiliy to say "No," that your "Yes" is not freely given consent. While we do not criminalize all such behavior, it does change the emotional dynamics.

[shrike3]

34. Point taken n/t

[The Blue Flower]

17. Above all, it was incredibly stupid

How he didn't think from the very first that it could be a setup to bring him down was beyond dumb.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

20. Stupid on his part but consensual

[MaryMagdaline]

21. Pretty much the same. In her own words, she flashed Bill Clinton -

Sent him a sign she was ready to play around. She bragged about coming to DC with “knee pads” and wanted something to tell her grand kids. She and Clinton were alike ... they both loved sex and were careless about how it affected others. I blame him much more for THAT. He was older and should have known better.

He didn’t groom her or approach her. I feel terrible for her because of her miscalculation that This would become public when she didn’t want it to. She was young and adventurous. She has ruined her life. Still pissed at him for causing US all these problems. AND the hostile work place for men and women who were not screwing around. I don’t see her as a victim though other than victim of her own youthful miscalculations.

I still like Monica. She’s probably grown as a person. Clinton - not as much but he’s still my favorite president. Not my favorite person.

[Wellstone ruled]

22. Billy was just listening to the wrong head.

And he made the History Books as a result.

Who the hell cares,you can not reverse human mistakes that become Public Knowledge.

[nolabear]

23. It was stupid and took advantage of his power in a personal way

but I didn’t get the impression she was threatened or coerced. Utter assholery? Yep. Impeachable? No. The lying part was, though. He was an idiot but by today’s presidential bar He was just another skeevy cheater.

[moonscape]

47. They lying bothered me most. Definitely a nothing-burger

by comparison to what we have now, but looking into the camera with such conviction and force with his lie was alarming and beyond disappointing to me at the time. Loved Clinton and cringed.

[Mike Nelson]

25. I think...

... Bill was really stupid to go for her. He should have asked the SS to transfer her out of his view. One thing I don't see mentioned - Monica was an adult and we have no right to judge her choice in partners or preferred sex acts. And, yes, I don't like the power discrepancy. President/Intern is not good at all...

[lillypaddle]

27. Why would we want to rehash this now?

Don't we have enough to worry about? Monica was an adult and consenting. Bill was an asshole, and I was pretty pissed off at him and his actions. But let's move on PLEASE. JFC.

[CTyankee]

44. thank you for your feedback. I am heeding you.

[Jeebo]

30. It was foolish, but Clinton is, after all, a heterosexual male.

I am a heterosexual male, too, so I can identify with him. I never criticize anybody for anything that I would do or be myself under the same circumstances. As long as it was mutually consensual, and it was. I always have thought that Clinton should have, from the very beginning of his political career, asserted his right to a personal life. He should have responded to all such inquiries, "I have a right to a private, personal life. I will not answer any questions that attempt to dig into my private life." That's what I think all politicians should do. Other public people, too.

About the "power discrepancy" issue that has been mentioned here, I disagree that there was any power discrepancy. Bill and Monica were both adults, both over 21, and both college graduates. There was no power discrepancy. There would have been if Bill had been the emperor and Monica one of his subjects, but that was not the case. The issue in their relationship was her power over her body, and his power over his body. On that level they were equals and there was no discrepancy. If the issue had involved some public policy question, on that level he had much more power than she did. But we're talking about their personal relationship, and on that level there was no discrepancy, there was an even balance.

-- Ron

[Voltaire2]

38. sorry men don't get a pass on awful behavior.

'boys will be boys' is bullshit. Those days are over. Grow the fuck up. Be an actual man, not a caricature of one.

[Jeebo]

40. I don't agree that it was awful behavior.

It was foolish behavior. There is a difference.

-- Ron

[CTyankee]

45. I meant that he had the power to banish her from the White House. All he had to do is tell staff

she wasn't allowed in his presence. Harsh but effective. She needed a wake up call but she didn't heed it. Big mistake.

[shrike3]

32. For me, it was always the stupidity.

He knew they were coming for him, and he did it anyway. I was pissed with him then, and am pissed with him now. However, the perjury was a set-up. He was being deposed for the Paula Jones suit, the attorneys blind-sided him with the Lewinsky question. Not that I'm not still pissed with him. Even though I voted him and think he was a good president. Have to wonder what might have been, if he'd kept it in his pants.

[marie999]

35. President Clinton was impeached for lying under oath and obstruction of justice,

not for having sex. He was acquitted on both counts.

[Voltaire2]

36. reprehensible and idiotic

Oh and utterly stupid to lie bout it under oath./

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Some men are as loyal as their opportunities.

The past is the past.

[PTWB]

39. Bleh.

Clinton’s BJ was politically foolish, morally ambiguous and totally not our business.

[onetexan]

43. So what? JFK had affair w Marilyn Monroe. Francois Mitterand had a mistress & grown child with her/

At his funeral Mitterand's wife & 2 kids stood on one side, the mistress & her adult daughter with him on the other. When an American reporter asked some French citizens about what they thought of his infidelity, they shrugged their shoulders & said he was a good president, what he does in his personal time is his business.

Clinton's affair was personal & the affair was consensual. He in no way hurt or jeopardized the country.
Us Americans can learn a thing or two from the French. Purity testing won't cut it. Otherwise we end up with the truly ignorant, crooked lot like the Con.

[CTyankee]

49. I don't agree. Precious time was lost on this stupidity when we as a country could have done much

better things with our time.

[Cha]

46. Good god.. this is what you're Worrying

about NOW?

JHC..Sorry.. trashcan.

[Yeehah]

48. He was a stupid asshole who took advantage of a groupie

My opinion has never changed. Certainly not the gigantic crime the corrupt, power-grubbing fascist republicans made it out to be, but still an extremely stupid and immoral action.

[Wanderlust988]

50. I'm only bothered cause it helped bring in the Bush presidency in 2000

Had he not done what he done, Al Gore would've won in 2000 and this country would be a LOT better off than it is now. There would be no Alito or Roberts on the SC for sure, and no Iraq War!

[Progressive Jones]

51. He failed. What else can be said about it? nt