Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:07 PM

Zalatix (8,994 posts)

The individual mandate: I and others warned that this was coming, too.

The ACA isn't what's going to destroy the finances of the working poor. It's the Individual Mandate. And this, too.

People were warned this was coming.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443437504577545770682810842.html

BY LOUISE RADNOFSKY

Around one in 10 employers in the U.S. plans to drop health coverage for workers in the next few years as the bulk of the federal health-care law begins, and more indicated they may do so over time, according to a study to be released Tuesday by consulting company Deloitte.

It is also safe to add that everyone responding to this will die of old age before Medicare for All is ever passed in America. That is, assuming it is ever passed in America.

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373 replies	Author	Time	Post
The individual mandate: I and others warned that this was coming, too. (Original post)	Zalatix	Sep 2012	OP
Wow - what a well researched and lengthy article.	DURHAM D	Sep 2012	#1
What a copout response. Are you saying it's wrong or not?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#2
I don't know if it is wrong or not, neither do you, and neither does Louise.	DURHAM D	Sep 2012	#8
Oh I know it's not wrong. I'd bet my ass on that.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#9
THERE IS NO MANDATE, PERIOD.	southernyankeebelle	Sep 2012	#57
THERE IS NO MOON. PERIOD.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#80
if people can't afford it, they won't have to pay it.	Voice for Peace	Sep 2012	#105
Who's going to decide if we can or can't afford it?	XemaSab	Sep 2012	#126
There must be something in writing, whether in the ACA . . .	freedom fighter jh	Sep 2012	#152
me, I will decide. just give me all your bank information.	Voice for Peace	Sep 2012	#170
You going to put some money in there?	XemaSab	Sep 2012	#247
Darn and here I thought Newty Fruity was going to put families on the moon. Oh well.	southernyankeebelle	Sep 2012	#348
There may be no Mandate on YOUR planet,	bvar22	Sep 2012	#341
Well maybe it is or not but it should be mandated. Buy what you can afford and the government	southernyankeebelle	Sep 2012	#347
No! I support a Democratic Party plan for HealthCare over your Republican approach.	bvar22	Sep 2012	#358
I believe we are all having a conversation.	southernyankeebelle	Sep 2012	#359
What % would drop coverage in the next five years without the ACA?	cthulu2016	Sep 2012	#3
Well, we do know that McDonald's and a few others got WAIVERS	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#6
You forgot ...	1StrongBlackMan	Sep 2012	#15
McDonald's corporate has more than 50 employees. Just ONE of the mistakes in your argument.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#20
I know the McDonald's corporation has more than 50 employees ...	1StrongBlackMan	Sep 2012	#98
WTF... I didn't say I don't like OBAMACARE. Stop pushing that lie.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#101
I didn't say I don't like wine ... I just don't like the grapes ...	1StrongBlackMan	Sep 2012	#115
The Individual Mandate isn't the grape. It's the worm inside the grape.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#122
The Individual Mandate Comes with the Territory	On the Road	Sep 2012	#208
Doesn't matter regardless if what is said downthread is true.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#212
Howard Dean says they did it in Vermont.	dkf	Sep 2012	#238
So you're claiming we can't read?	jeff47	Sep 2012	#276
"The individual mandate is one of the key features of the ACA." Uh, NO IT IS NOT.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#282
Is it necessarily a bad thing to untie health insurance / employment?	LiberalAndProud	Sep 2012	#281
Employers started decreasing ins. for empees several years ago. They started charging employees	Honeycombe8	Sep 2012	#142
But, GIVING birth is cheaper?	Fawke Em	Sep 2012	#177
A forbes article in may had this to say	Mojorabbit	Sep 2012	#284
The ACA originally had provisions to try and pry people away from employer-based health insurance.	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#4
There was talk of ...	1StrongBlackMan	Sep 2012	#22
Pry them away? It's employers who want to get free of their healthcare obligation.	HiPointDem	Sep 2012	#125
Well, employers who offer insurance want to get a better deal with insurance companies by bringing a	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#130
i'm not clear on what you mean.	HiPointDem	Sep 2012	#145
Employers get a better deal on insurance plans if they offer a larger number of people.	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#157
no, that part i understand. it's the way you're using "opt out" i don't understand. it's not	HiPointDem	Sep 2012	#160
Oh, I see what you're asking.	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#175
ok, now i get it.	HiPointDem	Sep 2012	#184
Stop it ...	1StrongBlackMan	Sep 2012	#5
I'll stop when you can show how people earning just $20k a year won't get socked with an extra	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#7
Let em dump 'em	ProSense	Sep 2012	#10
I don't think humanity itself will live to see Single Payer in America.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#12
You're conflating issues. n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#13
Not at all.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#16
Wait	ProSense	Sep 2012	#21
Public option will never happen. Not unless we split up the country.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#29
"Not unless we split up the country."	ProSense	Sep 2012	#38
What, you couldn't read what was posted?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#56
You have no point.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#64
You're living in denial. Medicare for All isn't happening in America. You're living a fantasy.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#69
Again, you have no point. n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#82
Again, you are living in denial. I have a perfect and error-free point, you just have no case here.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#85
First of all you will only live for no more than 110 years	RegieRocker	Sep 2012	#219
Keep dreaming. Feel free to serve up crow if it EVER happens.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#233
Most will die in the next few years	RegieRocker	Sep 2012	#269
There is another option here--single payer state by state	eridani	Sep 2012	#256
Finally, a voice of reason.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#257
People that can't afford insurance will be provided federal subsidies.	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#11
As I said, if you earn only $20K a year you will be ordered to pay over $80 a month for insurance.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#14
It doesn't say that. n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#19
Yes it does. And since you denied it, I'll end this debate with a screencap.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#23
Where does it say	ProSense	Sep 2012	#34
You yourself admit there is a tax penalty for non-compliance.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#39
Nice try. You said: "you will be ordered to pay over $80 a month for insurance"	ProSense	Sep 2012	#42
Uh, yes you will. And there's a PENALTY for non-compliance to serve as enforcement.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#70
This message was self-deleted by its author	AnotherMcIntosh	Sep 2012	#171
Oh but haven't you heard? The IRS can't enforce that penalty with levies or criminal proceedings.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#213
It says in 2014 the penalty is $95 per adult or 1% of family income, whichever is greater	dflprincess	Sep 2012	#114
Holy shit that's worse than I thought.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#141
It's $95 per adult	ProSense	Sep 2012	#148
A family of 4 would not get the penalty. They get Medicaid.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#151
Huh?	ProSense	Sep 2012	#159
The question is about one who's unemployed and one who's earning $20K	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#161
Wow, that's some argument.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#203
To call that response 'tangential' is to be charitable.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#215
You are exempted from the mandate if you cannot afford it.	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#24
$20k a month ain't low enough.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#27
The law says "no criminal action or liens can be imposed on people who don’t pay the fine"	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#45
"You can also apply for a waiver asking not to pay an assessment if you don't qualify automatically"	ProSense	Sep 2012	#48
If you're earning above the poverty level you won't succeed in applying for a waiver. Give it up.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#53
Nonsense. n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#55
Well then shouldn't you?	treestar	Sep 2012	#26
See the chart above. $20k/month income = you get gouged $84 a month.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#28
Nonsense.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#36
You're making up things I did not say.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#43
Really?	ProSense	Sep 2012	#51
No, first you apologize for falsely accusing me of something I never said.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#60
Apologize for disagreeing with you?	ProSense	Sep 2012	#63
What part of "You accused me of something I did not say" do you NOT understand?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#73
I think your	ProSense	Sep 2012	#91
Again: What part of "You accused me of something I did not say" do you NOT understand?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#94
I've made less than 20K as a self employed person	treestar	Sep 2012	#131
With that kind of skimpy coverage, you are guaranteed to go bankrupt if you have seious expenses	eridani	Sep 2012	#266
When they had no insurance at all, those bills were much higher	treestar	Sep 2012	#297
When they had no insurance, they could at least pay for routine care n/t	eridani	Oct 2012	#360
I make less than 20k a year, working full time	darkangel218	Sep 2012	#352
Afford is subjective. As defined some will be able to afford it and others won't.	TheKentuckian	Sep 2012	#355
This message was self-deleted by its author	JaneyVee	Sep 2012	#46
The Republican WSJ article is WRONG. Since when do empers "care" about employee health coverage?	Honeycombe8	Sep 2012	#146
That person can take a penalty, instead. It won't be much. But 'm guessing the person will be GLAD	Honeycombe8	Sep 2012	#155
"They can get a job where an employer provides coverage"? and you call the WSJ Republican??	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#166
Yes, the WSJ is Republican, and you posted the article.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#172
Republicans were the ones who first PUSHED THE MANDATE.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#180
Everyone knows that. Common knowledge. Republicans also started the child credit, even for those	Honeycombe8	Sep 2012	#305
I think you need to	enlightenment	Sep 2012	#201
I think you need learn reality. We don't have single payer. We have an ins. system.	Honeycombe8	Sep 2012	#310
A little over 30 days to the election, and DUers are posting Wall Street Journal articles	Nye Bevan	Sep 2012	#17
Given that the WJS has Romney strategists	CitizenPatriot	Sep 2012	#31
The ACA isn't the problem, it's the Mandate. That's a Mitt Romney idea, a Heritage Foundation idea.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#35
It's also a Swiss idea.	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#52
It's a sucky idea. I wish we were more like England or Canada.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#187
You've yet to explain how it works without a mandate.	jeff47	Sep 2012	#278
Standard GOP ... WSJ says it ... some Democrate sees it, and dispairs.	JoePhilly	Sep 2012	#93
Yup, quietly cede the country to the Koches or revolt, which is their plan...	freshwest	Sep 2012	#345
Using the Oregon Health Plan Exchange calculator -	bhikkhu	Sep 2012	#18
People earning $20k a year can't afford another $84-85 a month expense on their budget	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#25
Are we assuming a current health expenditure level of $0?	cthulu2016	Sep 2012	#30
Yes. A lot of people spend $0 on health care right now because their budgets are already overburdene	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#33
More nonsense	ProSense	Sep 2012	#58
More denials on your part.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#66
You're laughing?	ProSense	Sep 2012	#74
You will be ordered to pay over $80 a month. Failure to comply means a monetary PENALTY.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#78
"Failure to comply means a monetary PENALTY" of $8/mo assessed at tax time.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#84
You're out of your league with basic mathematics.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#87
Psst:	ProSense	Sep 2012	#90
Once again you fail basic mathematics.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#95
What's the	ProSense	Sep 2012	#100
Ah, I see what your problem is.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#107
"The tax penalty will only be $8 a month in 2014"	ProSense	Sep 2012	#116
The only way I can be wrong is if the tax penalty is not $695 in 2016. Otherwise... you lose.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#119
It's $95 in 2014, and you're wrong long before 2016. n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#137
$695 or higher in 2016 is not wrong. Sorry, you're just off-base here. $695 in 2016!	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#143
Insurance is not care. At that level of payment for useless crap, the money--	eridani	Sep 2012	#274
I raise a family of four on 28k a year	bhikkhu	Sep 2012	#71
That is impossible in America. Unless you are homeless.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#75
Don't be callous and ridiculous! n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#77
Callous? You guys are the ones talking about slapping the working poor	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#79
No, that's your imagination.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#88
You still don't grasp reality here.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#97
They don't have to, and	ProSense	Sep 2012	#109
You still don't comprehend.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#123
How much is a person earning $20,000 paying now? n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#128
Nothing. Because they can't afford to.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#133
So your argument is that	ProSense	Sep 2012	#135
"Should continue not having insurance"? More like, they have no choice but not to have it.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#139
They	ProSense	Sep 2012	#153
It's not a choice. It's a mathematical certainty.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#156
Would it	ProSense	Sep 2012	#167
You can now admit that you twisted what I said.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#176
Comprehension: "As if" doesn't mean you said it.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#179
Backpedaling: "Uh, I didn't mean it that way"	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#181
No, single payer isn't free and baseless shit stirring isn't a valid argument. n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#182
Nobody said or implied single payer was free, and bullshit lies aren't valid arguments either.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#185
What will it cost a person earning $20,000	ProSense	Sep 2012	#188
A LOT less than it costs now.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#190
Medicare is minimum $99 per month.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#198
No, that's not what Medicare for All would cost. Not even close. Your facts are way off.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#211
What am I missing here, ProSense? I wish I only had to pay $80/month.	freshwest	Sep 2012	#271
Good post. Thanks.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#275
And what if an employer had to pay only $80 a month	bhikkhu	Sep 2012	#320
I wonder if this is the same $80 figure that this OP is about? I don't understand what is happening.	freshwest	Sep 2012	#344
I'm sure it varies depending on where you live, but it is very possible where I live	bhikkhu	Sep 2012	#81
Wait a second.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#149
My income of $28k supports 4, the other example is for a single adult living alone	bhikkhu	Sep 2012	#163
You're not getting Medicare for all, so just stop harping on that...	TreasonousBastard	Sep 2012	#32
Prior to ACA, your 20k a year worker would have been on the hook for $3400.	lumberjack_jeff	Sep 2012	#37
Not true. And who are you fooling with the "don't pay the penalty... nothing happens"? LOL!!!	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#47
Fooling? Only the illiterate, I guess.	lumberjack_jeff	Sep 2012	#59
What the hell are you talking about?	ProSense	Sep 2012	#62
Wow, you didn't even read over what you posted.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#83
Wrong. See post #65	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#89
And if your fantasyland rebuttal has any basis in reality, the consequences will be DIRE.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#136
Nothing "fantasyland" about it. It's right there in the law and the Supreme Court ruling.	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#140
Fantasyland or Dystopia, pick it. You're either wrong, or you'll wish you were.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#144
How do they get a 70% discount if they still can't afford the $80 a month?	hughee99	Sep 2012	#86
Companies were ALREADY planning on dropping employee plans.	NashvilleLefty	Sep 2012	#40
You will see Medicare for All here in America when America is dead and gone.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#49
I disagree. But in the meantime we have the ACA.	NashvilleLefty	Sep 2012	#162
Since most working families ...	1StrongBlackMan	Sep 2012	#41
Please provide one single piece of legislation that has been enacted ...	1StrongBlackMan	Sep 2012	#44
It's a mixed bag...Many of us will have to suffer while others will see a relief...	KoKo	Sep 2012	#50
"it will be hell for those of us wanting to have access to the the health care we used to have"	ProSense	Sep 2012	#54
The Change Over from the Status Quo through 2014 when the rest kicks in	KoKo	Sep 2012	#356
They have been dropping coverage steadily for years. as we all know.	robinlynne	Sep 2012	#61
Hey everyone, OP is just fear whipping. In the Supreme Court's ruling...	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#65
It's self-aggrandizing shit stirring. n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#68
All it takes is a stroke of a pen...	derby378	Sep 2012	#72
All it takes is a stroke of a pen to change any law in effect.	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#76
Hey everyone, BenzoDia just explained how ludicrous the Individual Mandate is!	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#92
Very few people gamed the Massachusett's, The Netherlands' or Switzerland's mandate	BenzoDia	Sep 2012	#102
Low income people in MA go bankrupt or die	eridani	Sep 2012	#277
No, I think you got pwn'd. n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#104
You think a lot of things, all of which have been wrong today.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#108
The Act, however, bars the IRS from using several of its normal enforcement tools, such as criminal	ProSense	Sep 2012	#120
And as I said, if that fantasyland assessment is true, these consequences are unavoidable.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#127
"Millions of people who are uninsured now won't pay for insurance in 2014."	ProSense	Sep 2012	#164
Why do you keep arguing that the penalty won't go up to $695 in 2016?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#174
16 million more will qualify for Medicaid	ProSense	Sep 2012	#178
Why don't you believe that the tax penalty will go up to $695 in 2016?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#186
What does it	ProSense	Sep 2012	#191
There will be those who cheat society, but I think most of us will contribute to a fair system.	Hoyt	Sep 2012	#293
Of course any move toward a public health insurance program will lead to.....	Swede Atlanta	Sep 2012	#67
Individual states can get waivers and do their own thing, like Single Payer, as Vermont is doing. nt	patrice	Sep 2012	#96
So... move out of places like Texas?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#99
You could move here	ProSense	Sep 2012	#103
Sorry, but I don't want to be your neighbor.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#112
Oregon's nice, and has its own very good ACA-compliant system in the works	bhikkhu	Sep 2012	#204
No, quit your bitching and take some responsibility for what happens in your state. Even a moderate	patrice	Sep 2012	#113
Quit your bitching at me! Unless you think I can INDOCTRINATE the whole state by myself.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#117
Yep. Don't bother. Whatever you do is nothing anyway. There is no effect that you can have that is	patrice	Sep 2012	#121
Contrary to popular belief, one person cannot change the world. It takes the help of millions.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#124
And you have no clue about how you might become more than one? No wonder you are	patrice	Sep 2012	#129
Okay so what have you done to change the world, and how successful have you been?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#134
I have done more than I can tell, some small things, some not so small things, ever since	patrice	Sep 2012	#158
And with all that effort, have you been able to get Medicare for All passed?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#183
Nevermind. You are either too ignorant or too incapable of understanding. Carry on with your whine.	patrice	Sep 2012	#196
You're just too confused and irrational to do anything but bitch aimlessly at me.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#220
If you think it's only about success as you define it, you are an authoritarian, apparently without	patrice	Sep 2012	#169
You throw around some big words without knowing their meaning.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#193
That's the problem with ideologically driven results	jberryhill	Sep 2012	#209
And for those who choose not to pay for insurance or pay the tax penalty, there is no step forward.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#216
Bullshit	jberryhill	Sep 2012	#287
Then by all means wake me up when Medicare for All happens. LOL.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#298
Clinton had a good line on Jon Stewart's program	jberryhill	Sep 2012	#210
Yes.	jeff47	Sep 2012	#279
You way over estimate your own perspicacity not only in thinking no one else expected that effect	patrice	Sep 2012	#106
Wow. I said "I and others". How did that come out to me thinking no one else saw this?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#111
I am merely pointing out that to those, whom you may think it is news, it isn't. nt	patrice	Sep 2012	#118
AAAAHHHH! The Individual Mandate gonna git us!!!	porphyrian	Sep 2012	#110
Speaking of fail, from your own cite:	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#132
OH NO! President Obama changed his mind about something since he became...	porphyrian	Sep 2012	#296
That has nothing to do with the mandate. It has to do with perceived increase costs for the ACA...	Honeycombe8	Sep 2012	#138
The reality is employers have been dropping health insurance as a benefit for years	Samantha	Sep 2012	#147
Exactly...	Sekhmets Daughter	Sep 2012	#154
It's fascinating	ProSense	Sep 2012	#150
Many employers, at least small business owners, were going to end	ecstatic	Sep 2012	#165
And the costs are the result of a FOR PROFIT insurance system. Control the profit = begin to	patrice	Sep 2012	#173
Fear mongering.	Loudestlib	Sep 2012	#168
You won't be saying that when the working poor get socked hard in 2014.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#189
"Socked hard" because they still can't afford insurance?	ProSense	Sep 2012	#194
Oh yeah, you still believe they'll only have to pay a $8/month tax penalty for non-compliance	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#199
Let's set aside the fact that you don't seem to know the ACA.	Loudestlib	Sep 2012	#235
Speaking of not knowing the ACA, you just called the ACA a REPUBLICAN PLAN!!!	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#251
it's my understanding that employers that dont offer health insurance will be required to pay a fine	notadmblnd	Sep 2012	#192
They'll save money by paying the tax penalty instead of paying for health care benefits	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#195
Bullshit. You're just guessing. Period.	Lex	Sep 2012	#202
And fooling a lot of people.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#205
You fail basic math. Period. I'm not guessing, I am absolutely CERTAIN.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#206
Stop	ProSense	Sep 2012	#207
No guesswork here, you still don't read your own cites.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#217
You cite nothing.	Lex	Sep 2012	#222
Why should I, when ProSense's own cites contradict him?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#224
Leave me out of the clownish argument. n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#226
You leave this clownish argument and it will stop being clownish.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#228
This message was self-deleted by its author	Lex	Sep 2012	#230
Evidently, you're in denial and	ProSense	Sep 2012	#225
No denial here, your facts are flat out wrong and you're trying to force feed me nonsense	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#227
Here:	ProSense	Sep 2012	#231
How Small Business Owners Get Health Insurance: they PAY for it, like everyone else.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#234
Your comments are now hilarious	ProSense	Sep 2012	#239
Your comments are now silly hour.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#242
Wrong. Sorry. You are guessing at this. AGAIN.	Lex	Sep 2012	#221
No, the problem is that you don't know what you're talking about.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#223
that's right, there will be no enforcement of the tax penalty	notadmblnd	Sep 2012	#237
I said, someone upthread CLAIMED there will be no enforcement. That is, of course, wrong.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#244
No, I never mentioned it.	notadmblnd	Sep 2012	#346
This message was self-deleted by its author	AnotherMcIntosh	Sep 2012	#197
Absurd! n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#200
This message was self-deleted by its author	AnotherMcIntosh	Sep 2012	#218
That has nothing to do with the ACA.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#232
It certainly has something to do with the individual mandate.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#248
Nothing, absolutely nothing. n/t	ProSense	Sep 2012	#250
Denial isn't a river in Egypt, ya know.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#252
You're quoting the	ProSense	Sep 2012	#254
Are you okay?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#255
LOL! It's irrelevant to the IRS' actions as they relate to ACA.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#259
Yeah, you're tired.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#261
No, I think you're spinning.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#263
There's no spin here, you just don't understand human nature.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#301
This message was self-deleted by its author	AnotherMcIntosh	Sep 2012	#292
Claiming that the IRS is powerless to collect money....	bvar22	Oct 2012	#370
I'm not sure which is more absurd - if they're wrong, or if they're right.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#236
Well THAT'S interesting.	Le Taz Hot	Sep 2012	#290
All this woe-is-me talk about the individual mandate. Let's take a look at the #1 rated healthcare	4lbs	Sep 2012	#214
Math, math, math! The population of France is 65 million. America? 300 million.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#240
You need to stop	ProSense	Sep 2012	#243
So which part are you confused about here?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#246
Sure,	ProSense	Sep 2012	#249
Do you know what I said when I said "The tax on the top earners is also a damned good idea"?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#253
And it's still apple to apples.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#258
It'll cost less than in France, and less than $84 a month.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#262
Will it be less than the 2014 penalty of $8	ProSense	Sep 2012	#268
Dear God, you don't even do math right.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#270
No it doesn't.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#272
Yeah, your math is not strong here, ProSense.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#300
This was fun	ProSense	Sep 2012	#304
People will game the system to death. Enjoy!	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#317
I think whatever "savings" there are from "large numbers" occurs well before 65 million insured.	Hoyt	Sep 2012	#295
The OP won't stop his fearmongering no matter what.	DevonRex	Sep 2012	#264
France also subsidizes low income people, and the government DICTATES health care prices	eridani	Sep 2012	#280
+1	leftstreet	Sep 2012	#331
True. I support all that. But the OP's main whine is about the individual mandate.	4lbs	Sep 2012	#336
No, the OP was about a mandate to enrich private insurance companies	eridani	Oct 2012	#361
Employers have steadily been dropping healthcare ANYWAY, because costs have been rising.	pnwmom	Sep 2012	#229
If a LOT of employers stop providing plans, I can't help but think the	gateley	Sep 2012	#241
Healthcare...	deathrind	Sep 2012	#245
Employers dropping coverage is what will GET us true universal health care	SoCalDem	Sep 2012	#260
Good	sakibsust	Sep 2012	#265
You may not give a shit if this hurts Obama's election chances	DevonRex	Sep 2012	#267
Seriously? I need a list of banned sites that I should not cite.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#273
I disagree with the OP but	cali	Sep 2012	#289
DURec	KG	Sep 2012	#283
"People were warned this was coming."...Ok, confess...you wear skinny jeans.	renie408	Sep 2012	#285
Factless? Emo? Oh I see, you lack for a coherent argument so instead you have to throw a tantrum.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#286
LOL...you are the only person throwing a tantrum.	renie408	Sep 2012	#288
There you go, throwing another damned hissyfit.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#299
I think you forgot "nahney nahney boo boo"	renie408	Sep 2012	#343
I sure did. And then you went and did it instead!	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#351
Employers have used any and no excuse to cut pay and benefits	quaker bill	Sep 2012	#291
The ONLY reason why I and many of my friends voted for Obama was because he was against the	coldwaterintheface	Sep 2012	#294
I wouldn't say that's cause to be less excited to vote this year.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#302
"Obama was railroaded into the Individual Mandate."	ProSense	Sep 2012	#306
You do remember that Obama OPPOSED the Individual Mandate during his campaign, right?	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#308
After your comments	ProSense	Sep 2012	#311
"Guessing". You do not understand what that word actually means.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#313
Wow, you're linking to a wingnut site? Really?	ProSense	Sep 2012	#323
Bah, I thought it said CBS news. The rest of your argument was refuted in #316.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#327
And your BS was smacked down in #325.	ProSense	Sep 2012	#328
You seem to like to confuse spin doctoring with "smacking down".	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#335
Railroaded my Ass, he did not even fight	coldwaterintheface	Sep 2012	#349
Another Thank God It Passed!	Safetykitten	Sep 2012	#303
I'll let this guy explain why The Mandate is a BAD idea for America.	bvar22	Sep 2012	#307
Why would anyone argue? Here's what he said	ProSense	Sep 2012	#312
Wow, you woke up as confused as you were last night.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#316
Bullshit!	ProSense	Sep 2012	#325
Candidate Obama was very clear that he opposed The Mandate during Campaign 2008.	bvar22	Sep 2012	#319
He might have sank Hillary over just that issue.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#321
Here's the part	ProSense	Sep 2012	#326
I KNOW what he said, and how he said it.	bvar22	Sep 2012	#338
That's absolutely correct. He ridiculed her for supporting the Mandate. And rightly. nt	Poll_Blind	Sep 2012	#333
Right wing bullshit from the wsj and a jury voted 5-1 keep it.	Warren Stupidity	Sep 2012	#309
This message was self-deleted by its author	AnotherMcIntosh	Sep 2012	#322
He has won on one point. I will look for sources in the future that are not the WSJ.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#342
Sources don't matter if they are accurate. The content and character of your posts is what matters.	rDigital	Oct 2012	#372
Nobody cares about your "warnings".	MjolnirTime	Sep 2012	#314
Big whoop, you don't HAVE TO CARE!!! The consequences will happen regardless.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#318
Yes,	ProSense	Sep 2012	#330
Denial is sometimes a comforting thing. I won't deny you that comfort.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#334
Here	ProSense	Sep 2012	#337
That post, and your statement here about Medicaid is obsolete.	bvar22	Sep 2012	#339
Actually,	ProSense	Sep 2012	#353
You're declaring victory for something that hasn't happened.	bvar22	Oct 2012	#362
His imagination is stronger than your reality.	Zalatix	Oct 2012	#363
My (her) knowledge of the facts is stronger than your guessing.	ProSense	Oct 2012	#365
There you go again, declaring victory after blowing off all your toes!	Zalatix	Oct 2012	#368
Wrong	ProSense	Oct 2012	#364
Do you know what the word "MANDATE" means?	bvar22	Oct 2012	#366
Do you know	ProSense	Oct 2012	#367
Nobody needs the MSM to explain THIS:	bvar22	Oct 2012	#369
Not this shit again.	Iggo	Sep 2012	#315
Here is the problem, stated simply.	Savannahmann	Sep 2012	#324
Yup. The wolf will hunt an unprotected lamb, it's as simple as that.	Zalatix	Sep 2012	#329
Left wing concern post from right-wing Murdoch paper.	gulliver	Sep 2012	#332
Why are you posting WSJ propaganda?	Odin2005	Sep 2012	#340
I and others warned that this was coming, too: another panic post.	randome	Sep 2012	#350
This will just make universal health care more probable.	Lint Head	Sep 2012	#354
It's no use.	2ndAmForComputers	Sep 2012	#357
stop the presses!	arely staircase	Oct 2012	#371
I for one look forward to your gloating thread	Capt. Obvious	Oct 2012	#373

Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:11 PM

DURHAM D (32,052 posts)

The individual mandate: I and others warned that this was coming, too.

1. Wow - what a well researched and lengthy article.

2. What a copout response. Are you saying it's wrong or not?

8. I don't know if it is wrong or not, neither do you, and neither does Louise.

9. Oh I know it's not wrong. I'd bet my ass on that.

57. THERE IS NO MANDATE, PERIOD.

80. THERE IS NO MOON. PERIOD.

105. if people can't afford it, they won't have to pay it.

126. Who's going to decide if we can or can't afford it?

152. There must be something in writing, whether in the ACA . . .

170. me, I will decide. just give me all your bank information.

247. You going to put some money in there?

348. Darn and here I thought Newty Fruity was going to put families on the moon. Oh well.

341. There may be no Mandate on YOUR planet,

347. Well maybe it is or not but it should be mandated. Buy what you can afford and the government

358. No! I support a Democratic Party plan for HealthCare over your Republican approach.

359. I believe we are all having a conversation.

3. What % would drop coverage in the next five years without the ACA?

6. Well, we do know that McDonald's and a few others got WAIVERS

15. You forgot ...

20. McDonald's corporate has more than 50 employees. Just ONE of the mistakes in your argument.

98. I know the McDonald's corporation has more than 50 employees ...

101. WTF... I didn't say I don't like OBAMACARE. Stop pushing that lie.

115. I didn't say I don't like wine ... I just don't like the grapes ...

122. The Individual Mandate isn't the grape. It's the worm inside the grape.

208. The Individual Mandate Comes with the Territory

212. Doesn't matter regardless if what is said downthread is true.

238. Howard Dean says they did it in Vermont.

276. So you're claiming we can't read?

282. "The individual mandate is one of the key features of the ACA." Uh, NO IT IS NOT.

281. Is it necessarily a bad thing to untie health insurance / employment?

142. Employers started decreasing ins. for empees several years ago. They started charging employees

177. But, GIVING birth is cheaper?

284. A forbes article in may had this to say

4. The ACA originally had provisions to try and pry people away from employer-based health insurance.

22. There was talk of ...

125. Pry them away? It's employers who want to get free of their healthcare obligation.

130. Well, employers who offer insurance want to get a better deal with insurance companies by bringing a

145. i'm not clear on what you mean.

157. Employers get a better deal on insurance plans if they offer a larger number of people.

160. no, that part i understand. it's the way you're using "opt out" i don't understand. it's not

175. Oh, I see what you're asking.

184. ok, now i get it.

5. Stop it ...

7. I'll stop when you can show how people earning just $20k a year won't get socked with an extra

10. Let em dump 'em

12. I don't think humanity itself will live to see Single Payer in America.

13. You're conflating issues. n/t

16. Not at all.

21. Wait

29. Public option will never happen. Not unless we split up the country.

38. "Not unless we split up the country."

56. What, you couldn't read what was posted?

64. You have no point.

69. You're living in denial. Medicare for All isn't happening in America. You're living a fantasy.

82. Again, you have no point. n/t

85. Again, you are living in denial. I have a perfect and error-free point, you just have no case here.

219. First of all you will only live for no more than 110 years

233. Keep dreaming. Feel free to serve up crow if it EVER happens.

269. Most will die in the next few years

256. There is another option here--single payer state by state

257. Finally, a voice of reason.

11. People that can't afford insurance will be provided federal subsidies.

14. As I said, if you earn only $20K a year you will be ordered to pay over $80 a month for insurance.

19. It doesn't say that. n/t

23. Yes it does. And since you denied it, I'll end this debate with a screencap.

34. Where does it say

39. You yourself admit there is a tax penalty for non-compliance.

42. Nice try. You said: "you will be ordered to pay over $80 a month for insurance"

70. Uh, yes you will. And there's a PENALTY for non-compliance to serve as enforcement.

213. Oh but haven't you heard? The IRS can't enforce that penalty with levies or criminal proceedings.

114. It says in 2014 the penalty is $95 per adult or 1% of family income, whichever is greater

141. Holy shit that's worse than I thought.

148. It's $95 per adult

151. A family of 4 would not get the penalty. They get Medicaid.

159. Huh?

161. The question is about one who's unemployed and one who's earning $20K

203. Wow, that's some argument.

215. To call that response 'tangential' is to be charitable.

24. You are exempted from the mandate if you cannot afford it.