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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat Liberals Don't Understand About Pro-Trump Latinos
They all have one very important thing in common.https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/10/trump-latinos-biden-2020/616901/
Abraham Enriquez speaks with the clarity of a levelheaded TV anchor. The 25-year-old Latino from Lubbock, Texas, was the first in his family to be born in the United States, after his grandparents immigrated from Mexico in the 1980s and brought his then-2-year-old mother with them. He visits his family across the border at least once a year for service trips with his grandparents church. When we talked recently about the state of American politics, I recognized the air of authority I had heard in clips of his eponymous web show and his public speeches rallying Latinos in Texas to votefor Donald Trump. Enriquez is one of millions of Latinos who will (or already have) cast a ballot for Trump this year. Nearly a third of Latinos routinely vote for Republicans in American elections, and the Trump campaigns appeals to them show an understanding of their unique worldview, one rooted in deeply held beliefs about individualism, economic opportunity, and traditional social values. Across nationality, class, immigrant experience, and age, Trump-voting Latinos have one thing in common: a different vision from other Latinos of what it means to be Americanand they believe their liberal counterparts and the broader public just dont understand that.
It all boils down to understanding that you are in charge of your own kind of predicament, Enriquez told me. America, were really at the crossroads of either self-governance or being dependent on the governmentand Hispanics know very well which decision they need to be making. Liberals may accuse these Latinos of voting against their own interests, given Trumps mishandling of the pandemic, attempts to repeal the Affordable Care Act, and restrictions on immigrationall issues that affect millions of Latino lives. But many pro-Trump Latinos told me they simply define their interests differently than their more progressive cousins do. They dont necessarily feel solidarity with Latinos as a whole, and many identify themselves as American first. (Some reject Latino or Latinx labels as well.) Many are lifelong Republicans not eager to abandon their party, and Trumps economy-first message and opposition to abortion rights resonate with them. Democrats shouldnt be surprised if Trump matches or improves on his 2016 showing among Latinos on November 3, or if their votes help him hold battleground states such as Arizona and Florida. Republican Latinos have always existed, and the Trump campaign has dedicated significant resources to winning over more of the Hispanic community this election cycle.
Election-year conversations tend to flatten voters into stereotypes, but there is no one kind of Latino voter: They arent all of Mexican or Cuban descent, nor are they all Catholic or connected by a shared immigrant experienceeven though these subgroups dominate national attention. Though 60 to 70 percent vote for Democrats, according to the Pew Research Center, Latinos arent a reliably partisan voting bloc and need to be persuaded, in culturally competent ways, to vote. Their differences in national identity, immigrant background, experiences with discrimination, and religious beliefs make Latinos just as complicated as any other demographic group, though they arent always portrayed that way. Take immigration, an issue commonly identified as the central Latino priority because many Americans assume that all Latinos hold the same pro-immigration view. The first time Enriquez heard Trump speak about politics was during the future presidents campaign-launch speech in 2015, when he said Mexico was sending people that have lots of problems, and theyre bringing those problems with us. Theyre bringing drugs. Theyre bringing crime. Enriquez told me he could forgive the presidents comments. I know exactly the status of Mexico, and how crime has completely just taken over the beautiful country that is Mexico.
So when President Trump was talking about what Mexico is sending, I immediately knewI understood [what he meant], Enriquez said. Did he word it correctly? No, but he did emphasize that, you know, it wasnt all Mexicans. (Enriquez told me that he first learned about Trump when he wrote a paper on The Art of the Deal in ninth grade.) Some pro-Trump Latinos told me they understand why immigrants seek new lives in America, but they want them to come to this country the right way. They dont necessarily identify with the plight of Latin American immigrants today. You cant really compare immigration in 2020 or 2016 to immigration like when my grandparents immigrated to America, Enriquez said. Some support Trumps border wall, some support limits on immigration generally, but almost all pivoted to the economy when the subject came up, arguing that unregulated immigration could have a negative effect on their own well-being. We recognize that open borders would not be good for the economy, for our families, Ray Baca, the founder of the El Pasobased activist group Border Hispanics for Trump, told me. Illegal immigration hurts employment as far as wages are concerned. And who are the people that get hurt? People at the bottom and many times that is still the Hispanics.
snip
SlogginThroughIt
(1,977 posts)Aside from that... Fuck them. They need to understand that he is an evil man that would just as soon die than he have to look upon them. I dont need to do jack shit.
rockfordfile
(8,702 posts)dflprincess
(28,075 posts)they would have loved Batista.
Castro was no prize but people forget (or have never been told) who he overthrew. Just because Batista was a stooge for American interests doesn't mean he was any better than who replaced him. And at least with Castro the people got healthcare and literacy.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)They understand nothing. They are fools.
NRaleighLiberal
(60,014 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... of oppression for a group of people.
Where people who've experience how any "ism" screws with their lives curls in response to Red Don's bigotry.
Walleye
(31,008 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,183 posts)Caliman73
(11,730 posts)Being Mexican-American myself and having family that supports the GOP, though not necessarily Trump, it is actually quite simple. They buy into the bullshit messaging of the GOP.
The language in the story is clear. "We don't want to be dependent on the Government" Like that is a a Democratic Party platform. That is a right wing talking point. We are ALL dependent in some way, on the government. You drive to work? You are dependent on the government. The roads...GOVERNMENT. The water out of your tap comes out consistently and clean? GOVERNMENT. The electricity in your home is standard and not sparking or catching fire? GOVERNMENT, idiots.
Open borders? Again, right wing bullshit talking point. I have not heard ONE serious person in the Democratic Party advocate for open borders. I know that people in the DSA talk about open borders and free movement of workers, but the DSA is not part of the Democratic Party and has no sway in the politics of the party. You can argue that we have not done enough to push through immigration reform, but that is arguable because Republicans always block any meaningful push for reform. The reality is the Republicans favor immigration the way it is for two big reasons. 1. Undocumented workers can be exploited by large ranchers, farmers, and other businesses (typically Republican owned). 2. Undocumented workers are a convenient target to scare gullible idiots like those in the story. It is easier to blame the workers who are risking their lives to come work here without papers, than it is to go after the employers who hire them willingly and preferably. As John Fugelsang says, "You can solve undocumented immigration easily, just lock up a bunch of rich employers for hiring people without papers and it will stop."
That guy who talked about crime in Mexico. Where do you think that the criminals get their guns and the money that allows them to compete with or corrupt the government officials? Grows on trees? The US supplies both. The guns directly (Mexico has tighter gun laws than the US by far). The money? The US is the largest market for drugs, of which Mexico is the largest supplier. How do you think El Chapo ended up becoming a billionaire, good investments? There are billboards in Guadalajara, one of Mexico's largest industrial centers, which are targeted at police and they say, "Plomo o Plata" which means "Lead (bullets) or Silver (slang/money). So police have a choice of being targeted by cartels, or working with them.
It has nothing to do with machismo or any other value ascribed to Latino groups. It has to do with ignorance. Ignorance of the actual issues. Ignorance of the Republican's bullshit. Ignorance of the history the US has with Latin America, how our policies and direct interference in their countries, has had enormous influence on the sad state in many Latin American countries.
There is a saying the may or may not be accurately attributed to Porfirio Diaz, the dictator of Mexico just before the Revolution of 1910. "Pobre de Mexico, tan lejos de Dios, tan cerca de los Estados Unidos" "Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States". People knew back then what a bad effect our actions had on Latin America.
Unless you are a wealthy minority (and even then) there is no reason to support the Republicans outside of ignorance and gullibility. Not complicated at all.
Walleye
(31,008 posts)These idiots trying to scare us with socialism, were a lot closer politically to 1930s Germany than we are to Venezuela. We are all dependent on each other, we are the government. And we are dependent on the other countries in the world. I dont understand people who think they live on a different planet and can ignore this one. I Dont get the term globalist. And trade? What, they dont like strawberries in January? Oh and all the people who say they love this country but seem to hate at least half of us. We cant stop fighting the Civil War. And we cant seem to eliminate racism.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... disdain republicans have for anything non-white.
Trump DID word that correctly, he doesn't value you as a human because of the color of your skin.
A lot of black republicans don't think people REALLY think that way because they haven't been exposed to any kind of oppression DIRECTLY ... so its dismissed as actions meant for votes like Enriquez.
Its also easy for people like Lil Wayne (aka sellout) to think the racism is benign because of the dichotomies people with deep racist believes hold in their lives.
No, republicans disvalue you because of your skin color ... PERIOD.
onecaliberal
(32,826 posts)Fuck every last piece of shit who supports republicans and dump and idgaf what color they are.
Celerity
(43,325 posts)onecaliberal
(32,826 posts)I despise republicans.
Celerity
(43,325 posts)a healthy heaping shovelful of misogyny/machismo
onecaliberal
(32,826 posts)Antithesis of what they say they believe .
Celerity
(43,325 posts)hate, greed, etc etc etc.
Full disclosure, I am a to-the-bone atheist. No woo for me.
onecaliberal
(32,826 posts)We never bought the dogma. It was a small agricultural town of mostly Italian and Portuguese farmers. I grew up around that conservative bullshit. Its everything you said and more.
Caliman73
(11,730 posts)Trump doesn't support anything they think he does. He uses it as a means to hook them emotionally then couldn't care less. He didn't put Comey Barrett, Kavanaugh, and Gorsuch on the bench because of abortion. He put them on the court to help keep him in office.
Bottom line is that they fall for the bullshit that Trump and the GOP feed them.
We shouldn't accuse them of hypocrisy. They are just gullible and ignorant (willingly or not is a question).
AmericanCanuck
(1,102 posts)Cubans think they are white and identify with the white supremacists. They look down upon other Hispanics.
Mexican-Americans who have been here a long time detest the new immigrants.
Many LatinX born here or who have been here for a long time see the new immigrants from Venezuela, Guatemala, El Salvador, Panama and Mexico as leeches.
None of them think of Puerto Ricans as real Hispanics and see them as elitist and privileged because of their US nationality.
Colombians, Peruvians, Chileans and Argentinians also look down upon Mexican and Central Americans because they think they are whiter.
We as Democrats need to have a coherent message that appeals to all of the above. It is above my paygrade to decide what that message will be.
dalton99a
(81,455 posts)appalachiablue
(41,127 posts)be welcomed and accepted by nazi, confederate and white nationalist T. supporters?
rusty fender
(3,428 posts)Within the group of Hispanics whose ancestors made it to NM hundreds of years ago, resides a faction that believe they have pure Spanish blood and therefore are better than the Mexicans. This faction is rabidly Catholic because the church has always reinforced this racist belief.
In reality, only a minute number of Hispanics descended from Conquistadors in NM are of pure Spanish blood. Like me they have Spanish and Native American blood(50%+ Iberian peninsula/20% Native American in my case), but their racism and religion trump everything.
Of course there are a large numbers of recent Latin American immigrants here who are evangelical and vote for the Repukes accordingly
idziak4ever1234
(1,257 posts)LuvLoogie
(6,992 posts)And fascist
tavernier
(12,377 posts)I live in a large Cuban area.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)fall for simplistic sloganeering? Nothing new here.
Baked Potato
(7,733 posts)them just like they do with everyone else.
NorthOf270
(290 posts)msongs
(67,395 posts)Celerity
(43,325 posts)The Village People are whitebread pop (full disclosure, I detest The Village People, and yes I am a member of the LGBTQ community, we are so not monolithic).
Latinx, especially the ones Rump and Rethugs target would never be attracted to that, especially if they are aware of the gay background.
see the music in the advert
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)plenty of people who would not listen to music, unless it was in English. It didn't even matter that they only understood a few words. Not only that, The Village people were huge across Latin America.
Celerity
(43,325 posts)Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)know more about us, than we know about ourselves? Also you seemed to have missed the irony about groups who are not monolithic. By talking about how monolithic others are?
Celerity
(43,325 posts)Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)people? What's happening here?
Celerity
(43,325 posts)We are talking about conservative Trump voting asshole Latinx, a culture that often has viscous deeply-sunk rabid homophobia in in it, whether in the US or not. I also provided a video that shows exactly what I claimed.
you said
That is a non sequitur in regards to my post
It means nothing in the analysis of the current 2020 reactionary segments within the Latinx US cohorts, and it literally is a broad-brush as well. It assumes that a popularity from long ago somehow means that these people will respond well, across decades and against their retrograde attitudes on sexual preference and identity. It attempts to posit a universal appeal with no evidentiary underpinnings of note.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)their ethnicity. I've found way more homophobia here than I ever did growing up in Puerto Rico. But there are plenty of right wing Puerto Ricans. I also know gay right wing Puerto Ricans who have their own bullshit reasons to support this shit show. Whether it's greed, ignorance, what they perceive as their own interests. You seem to be lumping people together whose origins go back to over 20 countries. There is way more nuance to this. And claiming to know what music they like or don't like. And why, because of some dumb ass commercial with some shitty generic "Latin American sounding music?
You were the one who said "The Village People are whitebread pop...". Guess what, that stuff appeals to all kinds of people. The person you replied to made a joke. And you jumped on it as if you're some kind of expert on the subject, without demonstrating much expertise.
Or is your implication that because of their ethnic origin they have to be even more homophobic? Talk about outdated notions.
Celerity
(43,325 posts)I never made an interracial and/or interethnic comparative statement as to homophobia
but to deny that it is not far too rampant in the Latinx community when taken as a whole (and ESPECIALLY amongst the more reactionary and conservative ones, who are, after all, the subject of this OP) is simply untrue
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)Celerity
(43,325 posts)If you want to deny it, then that is on you not me. All i said i my last reply is that I never stated the Latinx community was better or worse when it comes to homophobia than any other ethnic/racial/religious/geographically defined groups and/or cultures. That entire subject is both vast and explosive and I am not going to get involved into it.
I will, however, will definitively state that the conservative/reactionary Latinx cohorts are without a shadow of a doubt more homophobic than the non conservative, non reactionary cohorts. It goes with the territory, just as it does for all other groups/cultures.
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)Someone I actually know. I'm shocked to find out he's voting for Trump, especially since he voted for Hillary, or so he says, in 2016.
Celerity
(43,325 posts)dustyscamp
(2,224 posts)I think it's a good idea to try to understand all the groups who hate Dems and Liberals to see where they are coming from. If we understand them we could probably convince some of them that their ideas are regressive and could help change their mind. For the ones that are deep Trumpers we could automatically ignore them.
Boogiemack
(1,406 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Many are white and come from countries as racist as ours. That was driven home by a neighbor named Hector. Looks Italian. We had a family from the Dominican Republic move in. They were definitely mixed race and good folks. Hector was consernef that we had, (well, I dont want a hide but he used an insulting term) moving in next to us. American did not invent racism.
ansible
(1,718 posts)Lumping them all together as one people is extremely ignorant.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Like because they all speak Spanish they are the same. Totally insulting if you think for 2 seconds.
But we liberals sometimes get carried away with our own stereotypes.
I know 2 very racist people from South America. One from Venezuela and one from Argentina. Surprising? No. Both are white and from racist countries.
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)I was taught to pronounce Gomes the right way.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)And a DeCosta also from Brazil. White with blue eyes. He votes Democratic but says his father in Brazil is a big racist.
Behind the Aegis
(53,951 posts)It is mainly a "white" PC term. If people are so concerned about de-sexing the language, then they should do it according to the language, which would make the term "Latine" more in line with the language. Of course, there is the whole issue of categorization with Latino, Hispanic, Chicano, and so on. Basically, roping all peoples of "Latin" and South America into one ethnic group is stupid and just a huge mess (which you already stated, sorry for the repeat, just agreeing).
About One-in-Four U.S. Hispanics Have Heard of Latinx, but Just 3% Use It
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Completely agree with this.
Takket
(21,560 posts)This kind of thing drives me up the wall.................
you don't get to choose who you marry
what happens to your body
you can't organize labor for better pay
you don't get to choose who you vote for (gerrymandering: politicians get to choose their voters)
you have no right to healthcare if you get sick
you can't even have a cake made if the baker doesn't like something about your lifestyle!
you exist completely at the mercy of corporations and the dogma of religious institutions.......... but you are "in charge of your predicament". FUCK OFF WITH THAT SHIT
BusyBeingBest
(8,052 posts)from recent immigrants from less-desirable (poorer European or non-white countries), who wish to pull up the immigration drawbridge behind themselves. They believe they are not like immigrants who want to come here today. They are better, they are true Americans, and shouldn't have to identify, empathize, or compete with those "fresh off the boat" (or from across the border, etc.). It's a chip on their shoulder. I think this runs through other immigrant cultures as well. But also, they sound like typical Trump-humping GOP assholes. So, fuck 'em. Done trying to understand other people's stupid trains of thought.
shrike3
(3,572 posts)We are a country of immigrants that doesn't like immigrants. Look through our history. The second wave of the KKK was in reaction to the influx of immigrants (from places like Italy) to this country.
And yeah, fuck 'em.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 9, 2020, 10:21 AM - Edit history (1)
So the fact that a large portion are goops is unsurprising.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)And will bite us in the ass if we treat them like minorities. Treat them like Americans. Because once they are here over 1 generation thats what they truly are. And many are white. Perhaps a majority.
radius777
(3,635 posts)Most American whites would never consider any Latino to be 'real' white.
Remember that race in many ways is a socio-political definition more than biological. The one drop rule and all, as even most fair-skinned Latinos are at least somewhat mixed. And even those 'pure' European Latinos are still not considered white due to being part of a community/culture (Latino/Hispanic) that is identified with many brownskinned people.
The blindspot for Dems is that most voters (including voters of color) don't care for too much immigration, which puts presure on the labor market and social services.
sunonmars
(8,656 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)But when we are talking about their voting habits what others think of them is irrelevant. Its what they think that matters. I work with many people from South America and the Caribbean. They are Caucasian and know they are. Their kids look like me often times. What my redneck family in Arkansas think about them does not enter into their voting decisions. Americans often felt the same way about Italians when they were the new immigrant group and today many Americans of Italian heritage support trump. That my point. After one generation thinking of them as somehow different from other white Americans is a bad political take.
As to you second point, most Americans support legal immigration. Its illegal immigration that is disliked.
Have a nice Friday.
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)His first language was Spanish and he spoke English with an accent.
Boogiemack
(1,406 posts)I have to walk in their shoes, I guess. But how much of a monster does Trump have to be to get them to vote against him. I guess I don't understand their fears. "Socialism" that demands equal justice under the law, that demands equal opportunity for all citizens, seeks to provide healthcare for all citizens, that requires taxes to provide for the common good? What is it they don't like about Biden but love about Trump?
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,848 posts)the part where Trump described them as rapists and murderers, and has made it clear he thinks they should all be deported. And a lot of Republicans want to do away with birthright citizenship, so I guess a lot of them should start packing so they'll be all set when ICE comes for them.
Celerity
(43,325 posts)PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,848 posts)In true Republican fashion, fuck you I've got mine.
I despise republicans.
And so do I.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Most South American immigrants are from the upper and middle class of their countries. They are white. They dont just identify as white. They are white.
And they often have a worse opinion of people with Native American blood than most Americans. We tend to give Native Americans a special place. In some South American countries they just killed them all. And having any of their blood in you is not welcomed. At least for the ruling class. I personally know several immigrants from South America who feel this way.
We make a grave mistake when we mentally think of all Spanish speaking immigrants as a monolith. In my experience they are even more diverse in their outlook than Americans.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,848 posts)But they don't get it that Republicans lump them all together. They'll be the ones saying, "First they came for the Mexicans, and I didn't care because I wasn't Mexican. Then they came for Cubans, and I didn't care, because I wasn't Cuban. Then they came for anyone who spoke Spanish, and What The Fuck? I speak Spanish! How dare they come for me!"
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)And the upper and middle classes in many other countries are as well. And those are the ones coming here. Not the poor.
They have nothing to fear. Once here they are just like me. And realize most coming here from those countries are not poor. Many speak English when they arrive.
Many South American citizens hold Mexicans in the same place trump does. Not surprising. They are white.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)But without exception, no matter their families left Europe over a century ago they still feel as much affinity for their ancestral home in Europe as they do Argentina. Odd for an American.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,848 posts)I am pointing out that to Republicans, all Central and South Americans and Spanish speaking people are alike. If they think Republicans get that they are not raping and murdering Mexicans, they are not paying attentions.
At the risk of repeating myself: it's not how they perceive themselves, it's how Republicans see them.
ecstatic
(32,685 posts)My mom is a black South American who immigrated to the US in the mid 70s.
https://time.com/3923128/donald-trump-announcement-speech/
JI7
(89,247 posts)Awsi Dooger
(14,565 posts)Very clear cut. I have seen that in recent crosstabs, and crosstabs in prior years. Yesterday's Univision poll was merely the most recent evidence. Trump's approval rating among foreign born Florida Hispanics is 51/49 positive. His approval among Hispanics born in the United States is 38/62 negative.
Cubans are a big chunk of that but also Venezuelans, etc.
I save so many links on this type of stuff. I'll paste one section that more or less describes the problem in Miami-Dade. There are a ton of older Cubans here: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/cuban-immigrants-united-states-2018
"In 2018, the median age of Cuban immigrants was 53, much higher than that of the overall foreign- and U.S.-born populations, at 45 and 36, respectively. In large part, this is a result of the disproportionately high number of Cuban seniors. Twenty-seven percent of Cubans were 65 or older, whereas this age group accounted for just 16 percent of the overall foreign- and native-born populations. Meanwhile, Cuban immigrants are more likely than the native born but less likely than the overall foreign-born population to be of working age (ages 18 to 64)."
BTW, the guy in the photo from the OP is standing in front of the entrance to the Doral golf course owned by Trump. That intersection is jammed and where he is standing the light takes forever to change. The sign previously said Doral for decades but Trump naturally changed it to "Trump International Doral"
Bigredhunk
(1,349 posts)My cousin lives in TX. According to him the Latinos there are very racist toward blacks (hate them) and even call other Latinos trying to enter the country "w*tbacks." They basically sound pretty damned racist and "I've got mine."
radius777
(3,635 posts)and we need to recognize this. The centrism of Clintonism was not just about winning over suburban whites but PoC as well - which is what some white leftists never seem to get about this topic. It was Southern blacks and Sun Belt Latinos who helped Bill Clinton to the nomination in '92, and every 'Clinton Dem' (including Biden this year) since.
Trump's machismo, stance against immigration and radical Islam, stance against China (even though it's fake) on trade and outsourcing, image as a 'businessman' (ingrained from the 'Apprentice') - is what drives his support not only amongst whites but also many PoC who support such positions.
Trump is a white nationalist - but some vote for him because they view him as the only one doing something about these issues.
If Dems were to move to the center (and sound tougher) on these issues - even while taking liberal positions on many others like climate change, systemic racism, healthcare, economic inequality etc that liberals care about - we could easily win many of these voters back and build a durable coalition.
Celerity
(43,325 posts)axis is already massively and artificially tilted to the right compared to almost any other advanced Western nation.
A large swathe of the most right leaning Dems now (say the most right 1/3rd of the Caucus) would be solidly centre-right in most other Western nations. A Manchin type would be on the right edge of most centre right Eu parties, and a Henry Cuellar type, with his bigoted anti-LGBTQ, pro gunner, radical pro-life stance would bot even be welcome in most of the centre-right parties. Many, if not most of the Rethuglicans would be considered members of an extremist hate group. Trump would literally be locked up for hate crimes and inciting hate crimes (NOT joking) in many EU nations.
The largest block to be captured is the non voters, and moving to a flat out centre to centre right stance will NEVER get them. If the party tries to move further right than it already has, it will rip itself apart. The so-called 'far left' in the party (AOC, Bernie, etc etc etc ) would be bog standard social democrats in almost any other advanced nation. You would be laughed out the room if you tried to describe them as some sort of bomb throw ultra lefties.
So no, your idea is disastrous. The party is not going to slide over into towards or into the old centre-right Rockefeller Rethug space.
this literally makes no sense
as to be 'centrist' in skewed America, you can never deal with those issues as it will be impossible to do bold enough programmes
a centrist stance (a real one, centrist in the current American sense) will never even be able to pass a public option, never will expand the SCOTUS, never will doe away with the filibuster, never will truly crack down on the giant banks, never will be cappable of a truly impactful climate change plan, will never truly deal with systemic racism
why?
because you have to pander to the centre and the centre right forces all who have too much skin in the game to ever allow those things to be fully addressed, they simply want the old status quo returned to with a nice shiny coat of feelgood paint on it, but the same old same old in terms of who has systemic control
the 3rd way neoliberals brought the nation some truly disastrous things
NAFTA (was never about fair trade, only a worker class destroying typology that was gasligtingly labelled 'free' trade)
1996 Telecommunication Act (hello rise of corporate hate media and RW monopolies, and other shitbaggery)
Repeal of Glass Steagall (allowed the predator investment banks to ruinously co-mingle funds with thrifts, and allowed thrifts to gamble wildly with their monies)
Commodities and Futures Modernisation Act of 2000 (disastrously relegalised long-banned derivatives trading in almost all forms)
the last 2 laid the foundations for the 2007-2010 financial global crises
hard pass on that dross
radius777
(3,635 posts)but to move to the center on the main issues (immigration, terrorism and trade) that Trump won on - which would allow us to be liberal on the other issues.
In the 90's Clinton had to move to the center on the issues relevant to that era - otherwise he would not have won. But I don't suggest running that way now.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)He said we should shut down the refugee system until we "figure out what is going on". His Muslim ban left out Saudi Arabia or Pakistan where most terrorists come from.
Don't get me started on Trump's family separation policy or how he's treated asylum seekers.
sunonmars
(8,656 posts)Celerity
(43,325 posts)Perhaps I might agree, perhaps not, but I have no clue what you are suggesting. I am more than willing to listen.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)sunonmars
(8,656 posts)Apparently Stephen Miller has a list of immigration stuff ready to go if Trump wins, stripping birthright citizenship amongst other things.....
So if they don't realise nazis will eventually come for them because they will not be one of them ever, then there is no helping them.
Bigredhunk
(1,349 posts)DFW
(54,354 posts)As Tip O'Neill used to say.
Stick these Hispanic Trumpanzees at some Trump rally in Wisconsin or Ohio, and after the non-sympathetic Anglo crowd beats then to within an inch of their lives, merely for looking as they do, THEN ask them, when they can talk again, if they think they're still in the right company.
sunonmars
(8,656 posts)Azathoth
(4,607 posts)This is just classic denial and rationalization. "Sure, what he says sounds racist against me, but if you use these elaborate interpretive gymnastics, it actually means something totally different that I agree with."
Anyone operating with this kind of motivated reasoning is not going to be reachable by an appeal to objective facts.
maxrandb
(15,322 posts)You'd think The Atlantic would do a 200,000 word "puff piece" about that, since it appears that Retrumplican CONservatives don't "understand" 60-70% of Latino voters!
This article is nothing more than a corporate media attempt to normalize the abnormal, and provide cover for evil.
I'm going to go back and look in the archives for all those "What the Weimer Republic don't Understand about Pro-Hitler Jews"
Celerity
(43,325 posts)was a German Jewish organization during the Weimar Republic and the early years of Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support of Adolf Hitler.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews
Yes, In His Early Days, There Were Jews for Hitler Before the Full Horror of His Ideology Was Carried Out in the Holocaust
https://buzzflash.com/articles/yes-in-his-early-days-there-were-jews-for-hitler-before-the-full-horror-of-his-ideology-was-carried-out-in-the-holocaust
Jews for Hitler? You must be kidding. Thats a question that I have come across on a number of occasions as I have studied the history of Nazi Germany over a period of many years. And yes, indeed, there were Jews for Hitler. There were not too many of them. And certainly many Jews who were living in Germany when Hitler was appointed as Chancellor by President Paul von Hindenburg on Jan. 30, 1933 and then was given dictatorial powers via the Enabling Act by the German Reichstag on March 23, 1933 were from those moments on afraid for their employment, their property, and civil rights they may have had under the predecessor Weimar Republic and eventually their lives. But Jews for Hitler there were, and organized too, primarily in an organization called The Association of German National Jews.
Sunsky
(1,737 posts)Sad.
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...Trump's antics are turning off folks who know firsthand the danger of authoritarian rule.
ecstatic
(32,685 posts)republicans, Latinos, Blacks, evangelicals, women, etc. really don't matter to me at this point.
At the end of the day, it shows their character, and it shows that there is no red line for these individuals. Crimes against humanity have already occurred on our soil and it looks like they would be silent in the face of genocide as well because... wait for it... Rugged individualism? An artificially propped up stock market?
Seriously... F*ck these disgusting sociopaths. If Biden wins in spite of the massive GOP cheating, I hope to never hear from these selfish, shortsighted nutjobs again!
Roisin Ni Fiachra
(2,574 posts)The thing they all have in common is that they feel a profound need to be ruled and controlled by a harsh, authoritarian male, who will tell them what to do, and how to be, because they have great difficulty thinking for themselves.
So they will vote against their own interests, and vote for a mean, abusive father figure like Trump, Hitler etc, ad nauseum.
The majority of Hispanic folks will vote for Joe, and Hispanic women, who know an abuser when they see one, will vote for Joe in significantly greater numbers than Hispanic men.
Nothing against Kamala, she's great, but I was hoping Joe would choose New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham for a running mate, in order to have more appeal to the Hispanic community, which comprises a huge segment and voting bloc among the overall US population.
Celerity
(43,325 posts)racial justice/BLM protests due to the white nationalist coppers killing us black folk pretty much etched that move in stone. I like Lujan Grisham btw, she would have been a good VP in a more normal year.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)Roisin Ni Fiachra
(2,574 posts)It's not rocket science, ya know.
BruceWane
(345 posts)It'd not that liberals don't understand that a lot of latinos vote republican, or the reasons they give for doing so.
It's that like most people who vote republican, the reasons they give for doing so are a series of falsehoods sold to them by the republican party.
We recognize that open borders would not be good for the economy, for our families.... who is actually proposing "open borders"?
America, were really at the crossroads of either self-governance or being dependent on the government" - another republican boogieman.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)While Biden generally enjoys majority support from Blacks, it is not so from Latinos. Also there was a lot of support for Bernie Sanders, so there is a big split there. Considering Latinos are making up a larger part of the demographics in America, this is an important political piece of the puzzle.
I feel glad for immigrants coming over, but I do find it sad and troubling that for example in the neighborhood I live in, Berwyn, it is mainly Hispanic. And my father spent his whole career working to integrate neighborhoods such as Berwyn that was all White, (and he had many experiences in Berwyn), for Black people.
I have been reading a book by Ofari Earl Hutchinson to try to understand these matters more.
A review from Good Reads
This book by Earl Ofari Hutchinson, a noted African American journalist, novelist, and radio and television commentator, was inspired by an misunderstanding with a Chicano poet from his home town of Chicago. Hutchinson discusses hot button topics where Latinos and African-Americans are in conflict, such as immigration reform, jobs, education, and the military, which mainly consist of recent events in California and his home town of Los Angeles. One unifying theme to these accounts is the mistrust that members of both groups have towards each other, and the lack of leadership displayed by prominent members of both communities. Hutchinson's accounts make for interesting reading, and it is a good introduction to the problems dividing these two groups, but the book is limited by a lack of in depth analysis and recommendations.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2068663.The_Latino_Challenge_to_Black_America
trackfan
(3,650 posts)This was in Los Angeles, shortly before the election. At the beginning of the show, Cheech was warming up the audience, and happened to mention Donald Trump. The hall filled with the expected boos, and as the boos died away, a small amount of clapping from a few Trump supporters. Cheech paused, and looked at one of the Trump supporters, and said, "Really? REALLY!? You like Donald Trump?" Then, he said, rather disgustedly, "Any Mexican that likes Trump should have to turn in his beans."
UTUSN
(70,683 posts)Yeehah
(4,585 posts)I have no need to understand the thought process of a fucking idiot.