Maybe it's time to talk secession.

[Yavin4]

How does one live in a country that's in the middle of a pandemic where a large segment of the population votes for a "leader" that proudly rejects basic public health measures? How do you overcome this ignorance? Someone please tell me.

How do you move forward on climate change, income inequality, education, healthcare, etc.? And other unknown massive events that may yet come? I go outside, and I see little children wearing masks. Parents stressed out about whether to send their kids to school or not.

We cannot go on like this. We are too divided as a people to function as a whole nation. We are a failed state.

Personally, I will do everything in my power to leave this country regardless of the outcome of this election, but that may not be possible given my age.

We need to have a serious discussion about secession. I have had it with rural voters being able to dictate to me who leads our government even though without my blue state tax dollars, they would starve to death. If they want Trump, McConnell, et al., then they should pay for them and suffer the consequences.

I live in NY. My governor and my mayor are keeping us safe from covid-19. They've had to overcome massive obstacles put in their way by this president in order to heal and protect NYers.

We may need to break free from the ignorance and bigotry and start our own blue state nation.

[NRaleighLiberal]

1. no answers. sad.

[mtnsnake]

2. Secession has been a fantasy dream of mine for more than a little while

[TEB]

3. No that is what kremlin would want putin

[Bucky]

7. Plus I'd be screwed down in here in Texas.

Don't leave me!!

[SoCalNative]

9. Just move

we'd force all of the reds out of blue states, and make them surrender their property there as well. Same would happen in the reds.

[BComplex]

15. OR we could half of us move to Texas, and half of us move to Florida.

And let Californians stay where they are. Then we could just turn the country blue!

[SoCalNative]

18. Nope

not moving to anyplace not on a blue coast

[Bucky]

25. Houston, Galveston, Corpus, and Brownsville make for a pretty damn blue coast my friend.

We get enough of yall surfer dudes over here, we can flip this state. Our waves suck, but then we don't have earthquakes, your levels of smog, nor nearly as ridiculous housing costs. It's a net win.

[SoCalNative]

27. But it's still

Texas. How about we just give Texas back to Mexico and Florida back to Spain? That would work for me. Also, France can have Louisiana back as well.

[Captain Zero]

23. Now there is an IDEA.

If lots of blue voters from places like Indiana, MO, KY, TN, OK, moved to Texas. It would flip blue fast. Retire in Texas for blue voters ??

[BComplex]

47. You don't have to pay state income taxes!

That way you could get out of a red state, and move to where they have the best Mexican food anywhere on the planet!

[Polybius]

49. Then they will play tit-for-tat

All of CA's Republicans could just move to Michigan, PA, and WI.

[TEB]

26. Exactly

[TEB]

71. We won't leave you 😂

[uponit7771]

36. +1, that would be Putin's wet dream

[TEB]

41. Yes

[SallyHemmings]

4. The blue states pay the bills-

Build a wall!!!!

[padfun]

5. I've wanted Calif to go alone for 20 years now.

We can make it as a country on our own.

[Vdizzle]

6. I don't believe it is as close as it is.

I have a feeling that we will be hearing about terrible cheating. Missing ballots and hacked electronic voting machines comes to mind. But it was all by design to make us want to split up. Putin’s design and dream.

[cwydro]

8. So NY would secede and become its own little country?

Or do you have other states in mind too?

[elias7]

12. I'd add the New England states for starters

Or have NY join us in NE. Then, a gerrymandered line of land serpentining out west to include northern Ohio, northern Illinois, Southern WI and MN, then out to CA/OR/WA. What a country that would be!!!

[cwydro]

22. What about all the "militias" in those states.

Some f the of those you named have big white supremacist problems.

[moose65]

29. But there would be a little problem....

Even in the bluest of states, there are conservatives. What would you do with them? Kick them out? Take their property?

Secession is a lost cause, to coin a phrase.

[elias7]

57. Libs and cons can live and work together

In a sane backdrop...

And Facebook and Fox News to honesty standards

[phylny]

70. Why would you leave out Virginia? We have worked SO HARD!

[roamer65]

14. New York and New England are ready made Canadian provinces.

[Retrograde]

59. I don't get the fascination with becoming part of Canada

New York + New England would be a perfectly fine country on their own. As would the West Coast states.

[roamer65]

67. There are benefits in political union.

Canada’s reputation world wide is good.

[Yavin4]

20. Any state that wants to join the Blue nation would be allowed to join. n/t

[cwydro]

24. Good luck!

[TwilightZone]

17. Yeah....

The whole red state/blue state thing is pretty much a myth. With a couple of possible exceptions, they're all purple to some degree.

[Bucky]

28. What's that little blue county up Michigan's upper pen?

(*googles*) is it cause Marquette is a college town?

[moose65]

31. Please don't post that misleading map

There are more people in a tiny blue dot in Los Angeles County than there are in 40 total states.

[TwilightZone]

42. It's to point out the impossible task of forming borders...

in the OP's hypothetical secession plan. Unless we're prepared to create a couple thousand "states", it's not tenable.

[roamer65]

11. Not yet.

If Dump does something crooked and steals the EC, then yes.

[TwilightZone]

13. 43% of NY voters voted for Trump.

Nearly everywhere is purple to some degree, with the exception of some near-100% red rural areas. Unless one can convince millions of people to move, that will likely be the case for the foreseeable future. In NY, from a geographical perspective, it's more red than blue. Would you propose splitting up NY as part of the process?

Secession is not, nor has it ever been, realistic, in part because there really aren't blue states or red states. Even a supposedly-solid "red" state like Alabama has a big chunk of blue right across the middle.

[mtnsnake]

39. Becoming part of a new country, a blue one, would be good reason for them to leave

Many of them could make their Florida residences their permanent residence instead of their vacation one. The rest of them could move to a red state of their choice and leave the rest of us alone to live out our lives in peace and harmony.

[TwilightZone]

44. It's not that simple.

You really think 100 million people can just pick up and move, find new jobs, find new homes, and the like?

Besides, what makes you think you can convince conservatives to move? I suspect they would note that they already "have" most of the land so they'd probably insist that we all move to urban areas. Not everyone wants to live in a large city.

The entire idea of succession is silly and untenable. We should have figured that out the first time. It didn't work then, even when entire states were mostly on the same page.

[mtnsnake]

58. I never said or thought anything like that.

I wasn't referring to the 100 million people that you referred to, nor was I thinking I could convince anyone to leave. I was replying to the previous poster about the trumpsters in NYS and mentioned that if they didn't like it in there (in a new blue country composed of blue northeast states) they could leave of their own free will. No convincing them to leave on my part.

Maybe the idea of secession is silly to you, but it's not to me and it wasn't silly to the people of Quebec all that not too long ago. They almost succeeded. Ask any Quebecer who tried to secede if they thought it was silly to try.

[marlakay]

40. Late last night I clicked on my state Oregon

Of course Joe won he got something like 1,297,000 votes but Trump got almost 800,000.

That made me think, I live in a blue state filled with 800,000 people who voted for Trump.

As much as I would love to separate the country and say good riddance we are all mixed up! Looking how close this vote is the odds of us ever having enough in Senate to pull major changes is highly unlikely as all the individual states would have to go along and they are mixed also.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

16. How? In the Civil War there were entire discrete states that wanted to secede as a group

because their economies depended on slavery, and the northern abolitionists were raining on their parade. Those states were able to put together an army and a government and fight a violent war for four years. The current situation, though, isn't really one group of states vs. another; the divide is primarily urban vs. rural within each state. Most of the large cities in politically red states are blue; most of the rural areas in politically blue states are red. I don't know how secession would be feasible even if enough people wanted it. Are you going to have constant skirmishes between cities and surrounding rural counties? Can Atlanta secede from Georgia? How on earth could that work?

[TreasonousBastard]

37. NY is a red state that looks blue because of NYC's massive voting block...

Surrounding counties are full of NYers who left for more accommodating towns, and huge chunks of upstate look more like Alabama. My ED just re-elected our Trumpsucking House member ("member" with that alternative meaning) and over half the county seems thrilled with that.

So, if there were a secession movement, it would have to be NYC, Albany, and everyone else see red forever.

I suspect most "blue" states are this sort of purple.

And we are, at the end of things, still a very conservative country. (Whatever conservative" means any more)

[crickets]

63. It couldn't work, and wouldn't.

I get it - this is an expression of frustration that so many people apparently voted for trump, but secession talk is really just a call for Civil War. This would be playing right into the hands of the Proud Bois, Boogaloos, and who knows how many other RW terrorist groups who really want that Civil War badly. Nope.

Every serious post talking about secession is fomenting sedition as well. Details and all.

I know, we're all disappointed that what looked like a possible landslide is squeaking under the wire. But at a time when we need to be pulling together and supporting one another, and Joe and Kamala, talking about ripping the country to pieces is counterproductive.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

64. I agree. There's no way to do it without causing something worse.

[H2O Man]

19. Being very old,

I'm talking about "success, son." We are in the struggle of our lifetimes. But we are going to win.

(Recommended)

[MA Mom]

21. I feel the same

I live in Massachusetts. I’m so tired of being governed by ignorant, gullible hillbillies but subsidizing their very existence. That may be harsh but it’s how I feel.

New England Independence Campaign is a thing and I certainly think NY could be included in that.

Our governors made a pact among states to help protect us from Covid. Why couldn’t such a pact be formalized and extend to many other issues?

[Turin_C3PO]

30. Here's the problem as I see it.

If blue states seceded, would they still get Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, etc? Wouldn’t the new, red, federal government have a monopoly on all the funds?

[Yavin4]

34. We could start our own currency, social programs, and tax laws.

We have the economic base to do so. We could form trade agreements with other nations as well.

We wouldn't have to carry a Kentucky or a Mississippi or a Alabama who give us nothing but knuckle dragging senators.

[TreasonousBastard]

32. Secession is out (remember the last time we tried it?) and I have no answer...

to the problem.

The last time we were so geographically divided was the late 19th century when people like Bryan and the Populist Party tried to gain a hold. Bryan was nuts, of course, and better known for his part in the Scopes trial-- and should he have won, we would never gotten to Roe in the first place.

Anyway, it didn't work. Simplistically, Bryan and his Midwestern liberals tried to wrest power from the Eastern corporate centers and immensely corrupt cities. It's possible the nation was never more divided then at that time (Civil War excepted).

We survived that, although it's arguable that the death of the Progressive Party could have meant the divide would continue with the death of progressivism had we not entered WWII, the only thing big enough to unify us.

From Day 1, this country was founded on suspicion, even hatred, of government, and that attitude still lingers. "Freedom" has degenerated to "Don't you dare tell me what to do!"

I'm too old and broke to start over, so I'm stuck here with little chance to change things.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

33. Works for me!

Let me know if California or whomever wants to do it!

It will never happen, but I can briefly entertain fantasies like religious fundamentalists do full-time!

[Fiendish Thingy]

38. That question was answered in 1865. The answer was no.

Do you really wish the death and destruction from the US military to rain down on the seceding states?

[Wednesdays]

43. Secession ain't gonna happen.

Someone tried that, in 1860 I think. How did that turn out?

[Hekate]

45. At this point we are two countries, intertwined. Look at the history of Pakistan/India partition...

...to see how badly wrong separation can go.

There are other countries where the “enemy” is your neighbor. Try Israel and Palestine. Have a look at Ireland during The Troubles. Everywhere there are examples of bloody conflict over land that can occur when people decide they can’t live together.

Seldom do we humans get a chance to just move on and start over in an empty land. It means leaving everything you know behind (house, property, farm, relatives) for one thing. But more importantly, no land is empty of other humans.

One of our foundational myths as Americans is that is how America was founded. The Pilgrims thought they could build a “New Jerusalem” — a perfect society. The pioneers thought the vast continent was empty and theirs for the taking. Too bad about those pesky Indians, though: they were here first.

My heart breaks at what we might become. But one thing is sure: we can’t partition our way out of it.

[Yavin4]

46. Then there's little to no hope.

It took a Herculean to win this election, and we may do so by the razor's edge.

[Hekate]

56. We just keep slogging. My POV changed forever with Bush v Gore 20 years ago...

I knew in my bones that we had witnessed a bloodless coup, but I was not ready to give up on my country.

When Barack Obama ran the first time, the battles here were epic. It was amazing to me how much sheer projection people could do on a man from Hawai’i — for both good and ill. But when all was said and done, I knew he was not the Messiah (look what we do to Messiahs) but what he could offer us was a chance to regroup, regain our sanity and vision, refresh. And still the battles in this country went on.

One of the insights I gained in Obama’s 8 years in office: there is a significant chunk of this country for whom the Civil War never ended, and they don’t all live in the South. Some of you may think that is scarcely an insight worth mentioning, but my whole life has been spent in Hawai’i and California, and it was news to me. A fair number of “those people” live in California.

We seem to be in a Cold War. Newt Gingrich and his cohort fired the first of many shots. I think we just need to be aware of that. And never give up.

[crickets]

62. You're talking sense. Thank you. nt

[sarisataka]

48. Let's, although I seem to recall

when right wingers talked about secession a few years ago we ridiculed the idea and pointed to the Civil War as a lesson to secessionists.

IF we were to allow a state to leave, we said they should pay for all of the Federal infrastructure within their borders. Will that still apply?

The state could keep the National Guard as its military but would have to pay for all Federally provided equipment. The same for postal workers.

The border would be closed until appropriate trade and travel treaties are negotiated. Critical energy needs could be supplied on humanitarian grounds for a limited time, say six months to a year. Payment would be at the current rate for that time. The same could apply to food imports.

[NurseJackie]

50. No...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

51. Why? How?

Basically every urban area in every state would have to secede from the more rural areas of the state.

There's no clean breaks.

This is stupid.

[budkin]

52. No

We are one nation and we will find a way to reunite.

[Blaukraut]

53. How are we going to unite?

Without a few new constitutional amendments that fix the EC and two party system, we are headed for trouble. And try to get 2/3rds of all states to agree on that.

[GoneOffShore]

54. So, over on Facebook this topic came up. I came up with some thoughts.

The big problem with secession/partition is that there are large numbers of people in the 'Red' states who don't share the political, religious, or cultural values of the people 'in control' in those states along with POC and LBGTQ folks. Then there are those people with 'Red' state values in the 'Blue' states, though their situation would not approach in any fashion that of people with Blue state values in a Red state. Sure, there are 'Purple' states, but that's a discussion for another time.

Secession/partition - call it what you will - throws a lot people 'under the bus', in a fairly awful way. Some people have ties to the area where they live: familial, business, sentimental, etc. Huge sacrifices are involved.

It's easy to say 'People can migrate', but it takes a lot to completely pull up your roots, get rid of everything, and start in a new place. Enormous numbers of people really don't have the resources, physically, financially, or psychologically, to do that. Splitting the US up would end up causing far more harm than can be imagined. Think North and South Korea, India and Pakistan, Bosnia, Armenia, the first American Civil War, etc, etc, ad infinitum.

There would disputes over borders, water rights, licensing of products, etc, etc. And the 'Law of Unintended Consequences' would apply in ways that at this stage are not even being considered.

The US needs to be fixed. And there are mechanisms to fix it. It's just that at the moment those mechanisms need some serious adjusting. And there are a lot of people who have a vested interest in seeing that those adjustments aren't made. Sure, we have a borderless world electronically, but how long will that last with partition/secession?

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

55. I'm in.

Whatever it takes.

A nation free of ignorant, cruel, dangerous fascists?

Sign. Me. Up.

[ego_nation]

60. I feel we're just too unstable to hold this much power in the world.

Imagine being any other country in the world and looking at the US as it swings wildly from one leader to another in a given election cycle. How would you work with a country when all your efforts could be laid to waste every 4 years? How does a country go from Clinton to Bush to Obama to Trump to hopefully Biden? It’s like conjoined twins constantly one upping each other in a war with itself.

[moondust]

61. "We need a common enemy to unite us."

I heard somebody on TV say that the other day. Then they pointed out that COVID is today's common enemy and it has only worked to further divide because it has been politicized by some corrupt politicians--starting at the "top."

Assuming the White House and Senate are divided for at least 4 more years, one might anticipate little more than gridlock. Mitch's rigged SCOTUS is there to block any significant progress. Dead end.

Cascadia is one option but I don't know what would happen to the other civilized areas that border racist pig strongholds.

[Captain Stern]

65. Perhaps, so. How do you propose we split your state (NY) up?

That's an important question.

We need to know where the battle lines will be drawn.

Which counties in New York would go where to which side?

[csziggy]

66. NO

Fuck that shit - I wish people would stop bringing it up.

It didn't work in the 1860s and the geographical dividing line is much less distinct now. I live in a blue county in a red state and there is no way I would leave my farm. I've been here for over forty years and would not live anywhere else.

[ecstatic]

68. Yep. We each choose our government (red or blue), then go from there

I came to this conclusion a few years ago.

It doesn't necessarily have to be border based. As long as rethugs agree to be peaceful...

[Crunchy Frog]

69. I think it's inevitable that it will eventually come to that.

The current situation is unsustainable.

[coti]

72. Can't we just kick out 5 red states, instead? nt

[wackadoo wabbit]

73. I do think that secession could work, even today, . . .

. . . but it would be with the blue states seceding this time, not the red. The west could become an Ecotopia (see the book of the same name), and the northeast could become another country yet. It's already sort of started: a couple of months ago, when it became obvious the the federal government was not going to help, the west coast started their own COVID supply consortium and the east coast did the same. When that happened, I thought, "And so it begins."

I believe that by 2035 we won't be one country any more. The rifts are just too great. Plus, the way our election system is currently set up, the few control the many; and the few are red and the many are blue.

People upthread are complaining about the chaos created by people having to move. No one has to move. If you're in a red area, you can continue living there; just be aware that that's where you'll be living (sort of like it is nationally today). Eventually, you may want to immigrate to a blue country (just as, today, people talk to immigrating to Canada).

And as for receiving your Social Security payments (I saw something upthread about this also); you'd still get them. There are plenty of Americans living in, say, Costa Rica or Mexico who receive their Social Security payments every month as Americans living abroad. And if you renounce your U.S. citizenship, you'd still be eligible to receive Social Security, as long as you have the required credits (the number of credits may differ depending on what agreement the U.S. will have with the new blue country).

So it's totally doable. It'll be uncomfortable, but it'll be kind of like birth: painful at the time but worth it afterwards.

Finally, as my late husband was fond of saying, "Lincoln was wrong. We should have let the south secede."

[Polybius]

74. It's been by dream for years

Two or three countries would be perfect. We can even make it like the EU so we can move there freely.