General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm about to give up.
A few points added on edit:
- I live in a fairly progressive community. Being surrounded by red hatters isn't an issue to me - the great majority of people where I live, and in my profession, would rather eat a live tarantula than vote for Trump.
- I'm increasingly confident that Biden will win the presidency. But it's not going to make a difference as long as McConnell is in charge of the Senate. There won't be real accountability for those who committed crimes in the Trump administration. Biden can probably reverse some of Trump's executive orders, but he'll never get to appoint someone to the Supreme Court. His agenda will die of starvation in Senate committees. And because nothing will get done, Americans will vote for a Republican in 2024.
- Even worse, we can't claim that Trump is being thrown out in disgrace. He may have lost the popular vote, but the margin is a lot narrower than it should have been. This means we don't just have to worry about his rabid core of dead enders - it's almost half of the country's population.
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I'm serious.
This election should have been a blowout. That it wasn't tells me that too many people looked at someone with a long history of moderate politics in government, someone who accepts physical reality, and decided that a lying bigoted loudmouth with artificial skin color and a lengthy record of denying what everyone can plainly see would be a better president. Even after four years of demonstrable failure and national embarrassment.
I'm tired to death of being told that I don't understand rural America, or coal miners, or evangelicals, or any other class of people who voted for Trump. I grew up in a working class family, I used to be a very serious Roman Catholic, I have a degree in geology, and I live in the upper midwest. And way beyond that, I've listened to people who voted for Trump ad nauseam. I think I've got a perfectly good understanding of such people.
The problem is that these people don't understand us. And because we're told to respect all sides (as if there's more than one legitimate side), and because there's an intricate media infrastructure that both feeds and gets fed by a market dedicated to membership in a group of people who know "the truth" and hold the key to being a "real American," getting them to even be willing to understand us is a lost cause.
This is why I'm repeatedly told that I want to take everyone's guns, shove socialized medicine down everyone's throats, and take everyone's hard-earned money. Which I don't. Which no Democrat does.
Solving a problem doesn't work if half of the people needed to find a solution don't think there's a problem in the first place.
It's not going to get better.
Next opportunity to get a job outside the US, I'm taking it.
MissB
(15,804 posts)And a few other states (WI? MI?) couldve opened and started the beginning part of ballot processing before Election Day.
It wouldve been looking a helluva lot better.
Result would be the same but with less angst.
TwilightZone
(25,428 posts)Had it been called Election Night, we're talking about this as an enormous win. It's still an enormous win, but the uncertainty is blunting the impact.
TwilightZone
(25,428 posts)Contrary to what we all wanted to believe (including me), this was never going to be a blowout. Many of us assumed that Trump *had* to lose support, but that belief wasn't based in reality.
Assuming he wins NV, AZ, PA, and/or GA, Biden's accomplishment is highly impressive. GA should be a shocker to everyone, but it doesn't seem that many realize just how significant it is.
We're disappointed about the Senate outcome, but I think our expectations were similarly a bit too elevated. We still have a shot with the two runoffs, but our next shot is 2022. It's the long game.
I do agree that many Trump supporters are a lost cause. As you noted, we've been told that we need to figure them out. I disagree. I think we should write them off to a large degree and focus on the voters for whom our message is positive. Turnout is always going to be the key as it was this cycle.
meadowlander
(4,388 posts)The GOP have turned purging voter rolls, gerrymandering and suppressing turnout into an art form.
Yes, 35% of the country should still have gotten off their ass and voted in the first place and 34% of the country is irretrievably wicked or insane but 36% got us over the line this week.
Giving up isn't going to make it better.
moose65
(3,166 posts)We dont need to try to understand or convert hardcore Trump lovers. They are a lost cause. Instead, we need to concentrate on younger voters, people of color, LGBT folks, and unaffiliated voters who are receptive to our ideas.
And youre right - its a long haul. We cry a little, then dust ourselves off and start again.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)canetoad
(17,136 posts)With 'rzemanfl' on the door. Catc ya soon buddy!
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)canetoad
(17,136 posts)As you can go without interplanetary travel.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)canetoad
(17,136 posts)Behind my shed that contains the magical essence (at certain times of the year) to take you wherever your heart desires.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)PA absentee ballots match polling!
fierywoman
(7,672 posts)I worked as a classical musician playing in their best orchestras. So I was very much part of the most exalted part of their culture. Sweetie-pie, if you think that by leaving the USA you'll leave the trumpists (& their mentality) behind, I have a bridge I'd love to sell you.
I send you peace and calm waters.
consider_this
(2,203 posts)In the past several years I thought about if leaving here should be considered, and in the last few days, thought hard on it. Then I came to the personal conclusion that this election is really a referendum on the nature of humans in general. I tend to think that there are always going to be at least a 30 - 50 % of selfish assholes and/or ignorant members of a herd, and expect it would be no different anywhere. I was contemplating this idea, and your post rather backs up those thoughts.
I am hoping we can still strive to make the best of what we can, wherever we are - and today, that is here.
fierywoman
(7,672 posts)affects the psyche of the populace. "Liberty" -- yes, but as an American, "freedom" is much dearer to me than "liberty."
Although I will say, the food in Italy is better -- but when I lived there, I could never find ginger -- or avocados -- or thyme! I endlessly heard, "Da noi facciamo cosi`" -- we do it this way. And they tell you how to do EVERYTHING.
BumRushDaShow
(128,521 posts)I want to steal that "Land doesn't vote. People do" sig graphic!
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)would be interested to hear what you have to say about living in those cultures as opposed to living here in the US. Especially regarding politics. I know every country has its right-wingers, but is it really as bad in those places as it is here? At least they aren't armed to the teeth, as far as I know.
fierywoman
(7,672 posts)you can't do here, etc., then absolutely: go for it. I loved the experiences I had living abroad. My life is vastly richer experience-wise because of those experiences.
When I first moved to Mexico (1978) I was (typically American -- or to be pc, I should say, "North American" ) very unaware -- so much so that, when my orch was planning a tour of South America in 1979, the conductor said, "We're having such problems with the visas --" (the orch was comprised of Mexicans, USA Americans, Bulgarians, Poles and Russians; it was like all 3 worlds in one.) He continued, "The Cubans don't want the Americans. The Argentinians don't want the Russians." At the time, I had no idea what on earth he was talking about. Eventually I learned -- and I learned that EVERYTHING in life is political.
Frankly, smirkymonkey, I could go on and on, but I don't know where to begin.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I just love to hear about people's experiences living abroad. I spent a semester living in Austria as a college student and it was one of the most wonderful times of my life. I would love the opportunity to live abroad again, but I think due to my age and work status, I wouldn't be able to swing it.
It might be possible to retire abroad if I could settle my student loan, but that is kind of a big if. What did you think of Italy? There is a slight possibility that I could get Italian/EU membership since my Italian grandfather wasn't a naturalized US citizen until after my father was born, so I think I could technically qualify. However, I don't know if it would be worth the hassle unless things got really bad over here.
electric_blue68
(14,818 posts)Many, many years ago a friend of my sister's stayed over night. She was/is a cellist. She played a few pieces on her instrument. It was wonderful.
I love music, and especially live. 🎵 💖 🎶
fierywoman
(7,672 posts)electric_blue68
(14,818 posts)I wanted the clarinet, or the violin.
I think they gave me the viola bc I had hit pueberty so I got taller, and curvy - they probably thought give the violin to one of the smaller girls.
I remember we used to race up & down the hallway balancing our bows on the palm of our hands. I know, not the way to treat it.
I did get the clarinet the next year! My sis played the bassoon for 3 yrs in HS.
Oh, crazy about the dual phrase. Such a terrible one.
Thanks for answering.
fierywoman
(7,672 posts)Meh -- we do terrible things with our bows sometimes!
electric_blue68
(14,818 posts)Freddie
(9,257 posts)I think hes wrong. Bernie would not have done as well.
TwilightZone
(25,428 posts)He's the anti-Trump. He's everything Trump isn't. The contrast couldn't be more stark. His temperament is the polar opposite. I think that he was exactly what we needed at this point in time, especially with the pandemic in full stride.
My son is 30. He voted for Biden unhappily. I told him we have to start somewhere. IMO Bernie would have lost decisively.
SharonAnn
(13,771 posts)Yavin4
(35,421 posts)The ONLY one.
JI7
(89,241 posts)him was what made it tougher. That's why they started targeting Harris .
canetoad
(17,136 posts)For quite some time. Nothing against the other candidates - they are all exceptional people, but....
I won't go so far as to say the Joe/Kamala ticket was preordained by the party, but it looks like they have done a job that no-one else could have done.
Imagine any other Democrat at the debates and think of where we would be right now if they got the nomination.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)You don't have to pick Sanders. You could have picked someone like Booker or someone who can do well in debates like Kamala Harris. I'm just saying I don't think Biden is the only one.
Yavin4
(35,421 posts)It was one of the primary reasons why Obama chose him to be his VP. Obama lost the 2008 primary in PA, and he knew that it would be difficult to win the presidency without PA.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I don't know what it is with Trump and the blue wall. You are probably right Biden does have an advantage in Pennsylvania.
Freddie
(9,257 posts)Normally - and I think well see this in a few hours - the cities outvote Pennsyltucky. 2016 was an outlier (IMO) due to, hate to say, lack of enthusiasm for HRC among many city folks.
cab67
(2,990 posts)Anyone to the left of Donald Trump would have been tarred as a commie. That Sanders comes close to actually promoting that persona would have driven a lot of people away.
My opinion, anyway.
Freddie
(9,257 posts)The younger crowd doesnt get that. He voted for Biden with his nose closed but at least he did, helped Palm Beach Co. stay blue despite the rest of the state.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Bernie Sanders Can Beat Trump. Heres the Math.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/28/opinion/bernie-sanders-polls.html
Basically young & latino/hispanic (he did well with them in the primaries) would have carried him over the edge like they are with Biden.
shrike3
(3,489 posts)There aren't enough progressives in this country to put a progressive president in office.
And young people didn't show up in the primaries. How could we have depended on them to show up in the general. This article is dated Feb. 28. Not really relevant now, IMO.
shrike3
(3,489 posts)Bernie is an actual social democrat. The Trump campaign managed to convince millions of Americans that Biden would turn America into a socialist hellhole. Imagine the bloodbath we'd have had if an actual social democrat had run.
I'm sure your son is a lovely person, but he is wrong.
crimycarny
(1,351 posts)Its extremely odd to me that unhackable mail-in ballots match polls almost exactly while votes tallied via machines are wildly off the polls, and ALL in favor of Trump.
We need more secure elections, period. I just dont buy that the polls were that far off again.
Georgia switched to all paper ballots. Do you think whats happening in Georgia is an anomaly from all other states that are wildly off the polls and going for Trump....that is until they started counting mail-in ballots?
No, something stinks to high heaven. Why do you think Trump fought so hard against mail-in ballots?
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,757 posts)We won. Let's take it from there and build on it.
Perfection only exists in the land of make believe.
AmericanCanuck
(1,102 posts)We are going to win this. Such posts are not helpful.
Kaleva
(36,259 posts)mahina
(17,622 posts)And money to recover.
What kind of work are you in if I might ask? I love a few young people who are at the deciding on career stage and Id love to be able to suggest something positive and portable.
Best luck. Please stay registered to vote?
Response to mahina (Reply #19)
rzemanfl This message was self-deleted by its author.
MoonlitKnight
(1,584 posts)Georgia might be a good place to reside until January 5th. I hear a couple of Senate candidates could use some votes.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)Mr.Bill
(24,251 posts)by asking them why they are so preoccupied with things being rammed down their throats.
And they use that term a lot.
I am also seriously shopping garage sales and thrift stores for a GI Joe doll so I can take it out and ask "Show us on the doll where the bad man took your gun."
BlueNProud
(1,048 posts)these fuckers are just going to get more and more crazy.
Wednesdays
(17,318 posts)mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)but if that doesn't suit you, and you really want to get a job in a new country, consider applying for a work permit in Canada with hopes of living in either Toronto, Montreal, or Ottawa. I've been to that country hundreds of times and it's fantastic. Good luck to you!