Electric Vehicle Myths: #1 EVs Do Not Have Enough Range to Be Viable

[PNW-Dem]

For those of you who are environmentally conscious, I am going to start a series about electric vehicle myths.

Myth 1: EVs Do Not Have Enough Range to Be Viable

Reality: Ten years ago, this was no myth. For example, in 2011, the Nissan LEAF was the first mass-market EV, and it had an effective range of 75 miles. The LEAF now has a range of 226 miles.

The average range of the twenty-two mass-market EVs shipping in North America in 2021 is 284 miles. The average range of a gasoline-powered car is about 275 miles. The myth of limited range is debunked.

evpubs.com

[jimfields33]

1. We need more gas stations to have electric hook ups

The charging stations need to be done as quickly as putting gas in the car. And somehow charging needs to be able to be done during electrical blackouts.

I think if those three things are done, electrical cars will be the norm.

[PNW-Dem]

33. Most EV owners charge their cars at home

There is a tendency to compare public EV charge stations with gas stations. Please keep in mind that most EV owners charge their cars at home, which is not an option for internal-combustion-engine vehicles. So, it is a bogus comparison to look at the number of gas stations versus the number of public charging stations when there are many thousands of residential charging stations.

[jimfields33]

46. I was thinking vacations where there would be stops.

I definitely like the day to day for sure.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

2. It's not the range that's a problem for me.

It's how long it takes to recharge.

When recharging time is under 15 minutes, then I might consider one.

When I'm driving, as I normally do several times a year, from Santa Fe to Kansas City, to Denver, to Tucson, all of which are well beyond the 284 miles you've quoted, I don't want to then stop for several hours to recharge. Multiple times. I know, a bit self and me me me, isn't it? Oh, and I have zero interest in owning two cars, one for around the town, the other for long trips.

The other question is, what will these vehicles cost? Need to be under $20k new for me. "Affordable" is not starting at $30k.

I am constantly astonished at what people pay for cars, and remind myself that's a lot of the reason people find it absolutely impossible to save money.

[lagomorph777]

3. Massive improvements to charge time are being implemented.

I think this will become the norm in the next couple of years.

[Codeine]

4. Even "inexpensive" cars are very expensive to my mind.

I understand you’re buying a more advanced and technologically-developed machine than even a few years ago, but damn.

[Native]

5. Go to the Tesla site, range is up to 340, new batteries will last 1,000,000 miles, and the

The super chargers can supposedly get you up to an 80% charge in like 15-30 minutes. And check out their map of charging stations - it's pretty damn good. With Biden in office I'm hoping there will be Fed rebates of some sort for EVs again. I've been waiting years to buy a new vehicle simply because of the points you mentioned. I vowed to go electric with our next vehicle, but with the technology improving each year, I've been putting it off. I'm definitely ready to get one now.

Oh, and factoring in the savings on fuel, the limited to no regular maintenance required, and the ability to simply buy a new battery instead of a new car in years to come all point to a cost much less than the sticker price. And with rebates, you could get it down to a very managable figure.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

7. And how much will that Tesla sell for?

Under $30k? I don't have to go to their site to know what the answer is.

[Native]

9. Updated my post re cost.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

12. Just some generic stuff about maintenance.

Not an actual cost.

I currently drive a 2017 Honda Fit, purchased used in 2018. The maintenance costs on that are quite low.

And, what does a recharge of an EV typically cost? How does it compare to gasoline?

[Rstrstx]

45. Low

I pay .10 per kWh at home for electricity and the car gets about 3-4 miles per kWh. Some days I’ll take a trip that’s about 80 miles round trip and I use 18 kWh ($1.80). If I go on a road trip to San Antonio (+/- 530 miles round trip) I’ll typically get billed around $12-15 by Tesla for using their Superchargers. When you’re on a road trip you never have to break out your credit card or cash to use their Superchargers; Tesla just puts in on your account. If your credit card on file has expired or is cancelled they will send you a bill at the end of the month from what I understand (never have had that happen to me).

There’s also the convenience factor. It’s very nice to be able to fill up your “tank” every night at the house. If you’re on a plan that has quasi-free night use it would be even less.

I understand their upcoming Cybertruck will have a solar bed cover option which can add I think about 15-20 miles of range a day if parked in full sun.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

14. Manageable as in less than $20k?

That's my definition of manageable.

[Native]

20. I'd say yes. What I hate more than anything is taking my car in for

maintenance & repairs. It's stressful, time consuming, and a freaking racket most of the time. If you did a true cost assessment (adding back in the savings you'd realize by taking all costs & savings into consideration), and factoring in a vehicle that should last much longer than a gas engine, I believe you could hit 20k. It's not an apples to apples comparison unless you look at the true costs and savings. Like I'm subtracting the cost of a casket from the sticker price because I hope to keep it long enough to be buried in it. LOL.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

47. How much longer?

My previous car was a 2004 Honda Civic that I drove for fourteen years. The only reason I traded it for the Fit was because I was jonesing for a newer car, specifically a Fit. The difference in technology between 2004 and 2017 is wonderful.

Perhaps someone who typically got a new car in only three or five years, but would keep the Tesla for 10 years, might be better off. I'll be driving this car for a good ten years. At my age, 72, it may well be the last vehicle I own.

Maybe the big difference is exactly what kind of gas vehicle you own. I've been driving Hondas now for 20 years, and maintenance and repairs on them are not a racket. They never cost that much, don't take long, and I know it's being done by people who know Hondas, because I do the maintenance at a dealership.

Also, for me, I see zero reason to own more than one car. For some people, especially if there's more than one driver in the household, that makes sense. I've always been a person for whom a car is essentially something with four wheels that gets me from place to place.

[tinrobot]

6. A 200+ mile charge now takes 30-60 minutes, not several hours.

Some of that time depends on the car and how efficient it is, but road trips are very possible.

Sure, you spend a little more time charging than you would with gas, but I can't drive more than 2-3 hours anyways without needing to stop. Charging actually forces me to stop and take a few minutes to recharge myself, and I find the whole trip to be more relaxing and enjoyable.

As for price - yes, still generally expensive. But here in California you can get a new 259-mile Chevy Bolt for less than $25K. Kia and Hyundai also have cars under $30K (adding in the $7500 tax break)

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

10. 30-60 minutes charging time, compared to 5 minutes or less to refill gas,

is hardly a "little more time".

I do tend to stop every few hours for a bathroom break, but that's maybe ten minutes.

I know someone who owns a Tesla, and several months ago she drove it from Los Angeles to Santa Fe and honestly, because she was posting about it on FB, the whole trip was an incredible ordeal. I know she needed to get the car relocated, as she was giving up an apartment there, but Oh, My.

Yes, this is a person more than well off enough to own a Tesla. Good for her. But that's not a trip she is ever again going to be making, I'm sure.

[tinrobot]

17. Correct. If you demand NASCAR-level pit stop speed, then you'll never enjoy EVs.

EVs will always take a bit longer. It's the nature of the beast.

Every so often, I'll rent a car and drive with gas. I actually timed myself when I stopped for fuel to see how long I actually took. It was more like 15-20 minutes rather than 5. I'd stop, go to the restroom get a snack, wipe off the windows, etc.

A modern EV takes about a half hour. The extra 10 minutes is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme. Personally, it forces me to stop and look around, which I find keeps me a bit more refreshed when I start driving again.

But if you absolutely have to get in/out in 5 minutes, then you'll have to burn dinosaurs and pollute more. Your choice.

[Codeine]

19. I would question whether he's polluting more.

Battery production has a high pollution footprint, and the electricity the EV needs is likely burning those same dinosaurs. That wouldn’t be an issue if science-fearing idiots hadn’t made nuclear power the boogeyman of a generation, but whatever.

[tinrobot]

21. Gas pollutes more, it is simply less efficient. Batteries are repurposed/recycled.

Burning the fuel inside a vehicle is less efficient than burning it in a power plant (if that is your source of power). The EV itself is also more efficient, electric motors are much better than combustion engines in that regard.

Obviously as we transition to solar/wind, maybe nuclear (I agree we need more), burning fossil fuels for electricity will become less of an issue. And as those cleaner power sources come online, EVs get cleaner as well.

These are very common anti-EV talking points. They've all been debunked.

[Miguelito Loveless]

37. This has been answered conslusively

and the answer is EVs are cleaner.

https://evtool.ucsusa.org/

[Miguelito Loveless]

38. Also, with an EV you skip a lot of exposure to toxic chemicals

Benzine, glycols, CO, etc. And skip a lot of maintenance.

No:

Oil changes
Oil filters
Oil pumps
Radiators
Water pumps
Mufflers
Exhaust manifolds
Alternators
Head gaskets
Oxygen sensors
Catalytic converters
Transmissions
Fuel injectors
Fuel pumps
V-Belts
Timing belts

[Codeine]

43. For me those are the best arguments

in favor of an EV. Car maintenance is a such a racket.

Do you need to maintain brakes the same way? Am I correct in assuming the regen brake systems don’t require the same sorts of endless pad replacement, rotor wear, etc?

[Miguelito Loveless]

53. Absolutely

brake pads/rotors last 3x-4x longer, since regen slows the car down, while actually capturing your kinetic energy, and converting it back into electricity. It takes a bit of getting used to, but I can now time let my foot of the accelerator and the car will come to a complete stop with little to know use of the brakes.

The only downside is depending on how you drive, you can go through tires faster. If you love those "jumping into hyperspace" style starts from a stoplight, you are going to wear the tires faster due to the torque.

[Sanity Claws]

16. That is doable

You could plan a meal break around the time you need to recharge. But this assumes that you have a lot of choices where you can recharge.

Any idea of how long the batteries last? How often do they have to be replaced? Can we assume that as the battery ages, it will not have the same range? For example, I can imagine using a battery whose range has decreased to 50 miles for just everyday stuff but that would not do for a trip.

[tinrobot]

18. My current EV is about 8 years old. Battery is between 90-95%

I still get great range.

RAV4 EV, btw...

[Sanity Claws]

23. I will check this out

I promised myself that my next car will not run on fossil fuels.

[Miguelito Loveless]

32. You can find Rav4 EVs used

but, they are mostly on the West coast. The Kia Niro and Hyundai Kona are similar vehicles, but have 200+ miles of range, and found around the country, but are in short supply. They also sell for upward of $34K new. Then there is the Model Y, which is about $44K new (last I looked) with a 300 mile range and access to Tesla's growing Supercharger network (close to 1000 stations in the US).

[Miguelito Loveless]

35. Battery life on some early model Nissans

kind of gave everyone a bad taste. Avoid any used Leaf prior to 2016. Li-Ion battery packs lose 1%-2% of capacity per year, so worst case scenario your ten year old Tesla's 300+ mile range would drop to around 250 after 150K-200K miles.

[Codeine]

44. Do you need to run them way down

before charging like some batteries?

[Miguelito Loveless]

52. No,

Li-Ion batteries don't have the "memory" effect that Nickel-Cadmium batteries had. You can run them down, but you are fine charging them every night. The major thing you don't want to is charge them to 100% in high temp, then leave them in that state for days, as this prematurely ages the battery.

The normal charging range is 40%-90%. You save charging to 100% for time when you really need the max range (like on trips). All batteries have a "taper" effect in that they start of charging REAL fast when they are almost empty, but start to slow down when they get past 50%. The reason being is that as battery charge, they heat up, and to protect batteries from over-heating, the battery management system (BMS) throttles back the power once the temp hits a certain point (usually around 50%-60% full), then power start to decline.

You can usually hit 70%-80% full in 20-30 minutes, then the last 20%-30% will take another 30 minutes. But if you think about it, this is not a big deal, since again, distance you can drive is a factor of your bladder size, and the age of your children. Generally, a "pit stop" for fuel, food, and bathrooms, is going to be in the 20-30 minutes range, which gets you about another three hours of driving if charging on a quick charger (150kW+).

My model 3 can recover about 200 miles after 20 minutes.

Battery packs are rated at around 1,000 cycles before they begin to degrade, which doesn't seem like a lot, but a cycle is the equivalent of charging to 100%, then running to 0%. If you did that EVERY day it would be the equivalent of traveling 315,000 miles in 2.7 years. If you charge to 100%, drain the battery 25% (about 78 miles) each day, then it would take take 4 days to complete one battery cycle, and you would hit that 1,000 limit in about 11 years.

The average daily commute in the US is 35 miles, which is about 15% of the battery capacity, so that means the 1,000 cycle battery will last 6000+ days.

(This is "back of the envelope math", using a Model 3 battery as the benchmark).

The next generation batteries coming out next year should double, or triple cycle life.

Battery packs are getting larger, cheaper, more reliable, and the charging is getting faster. Tesla's V3 SC is 250kW, with 350kW coming in a few years, thanks to their battery redesign.

I've been driving electric since 2014, 100% electric since 2018. I've never been stranded anywhere.

[Initech]

11. I really wanted to get a Honda Clarity but the charging times were a turn off.

And the payoff barely equaled the equivalent of the amount of gas it takes to drive to the airport - one way.

Eventually electric vehicles will be made where they can charge to full capacity in the same amount of time it takes to fill a tank of gas. That's when they will become even more desirable.

[Miguelito Loveless]

30. Driving an EV depends on a couple of factors,

including thinking differently about how you "fuel".

If you own a home, or live in an apartment with access to an L2 charger (240v), you plug it in when you get home, and it is fully charged in the morning. Some people can live with an L1 charger (120v), but they are not too useful for EVs with batteries greater than 40kWh.

Most modern EVs can use quick charging and get to 80% in 30 minutes of less. That number will fall in the coming years with better batteries and more powerful chargers.

[Initech]

34. I always figured that whatever car I got this time was going to be my last gas powered car.

I expect more fully electric and hybrid electric vehicles to be available in the next few years by the time I have this car paid off.

[Miguelito Loveless]

40. Check around for local EV drivers

and they will be happy to tell you all about it. Some will even let you test drive one.

[Klaralven]

26. How about a gas emergency generator on a trailer for those longer trips?

You'll need it when the electric power is out anyway.

[PNW-Dem]

36. You can Supercharge to 80% in about 20 mins

That's after driving 200+ miles on the highway. While you get lunch or coffee, you car will be charged. That's for Tesla, but the other charge networks also offer rapid charging. It's a new world...

[PNW-Dem]

41. Price depends on the market segment

When it comes to comparing the price of EVs to comparable gas-powered cars, it depends on the market segment. For example, in the luxury mid-size category, EVs are priced at or below the price of comparable gas-powered cars.

In the economy market segment today, EVs are still priced at a premium, but you will need to factor in incentives. The US federal government and state governments offer tax credits, tax deductions, and other incentives that lower the cost of buying and operating an EV. The largest tax deduction is the $7,500 that is offered by the US federal government. This deduction no longer applies to Tesla because they have shipped too many electric vehicles to qualify for the program, but it does apply to other manufacturers.

evpubs.com

[Hermit-The-Prog]

49. Stopping every hour is just good driving sense.

[Iggo]

8. A myth is something that was never true.

[tinrobot]

13. My RAV4 EV has a 120 mile range and we use it 95% of the time.

Here in Southern California, I rarely drive that much in a day. The car is very useful, has enough range to get me anywhere in the region. If not, I fast charge for a half hour or so and keep going. I usually charge at home and have plenty for the next day. The only time we really go for gas vehicles is when the trip is over 200+ miles.

My car is almost 8 years old and is certainly not the latest tech, either. I'll replace it next year with another electric SUV. There will be quite a few with 200+ mile ranges to choose from.

We're getting there.

[Miguelito Loveless]

27. Another outstanding piece of tech

Made by Toyota, but powered by an early Tesla Model S drive train and battery pack. Yet another compliance car that Toyota never tried to sell outside of California. The battery pack cost about $40K in 2012. The same battery pack would cost less that $4K today.

Yet, Toyota has tuned it's back on EVs, and instead believes Hydrogen fuel cells are the future.

They are not.

[tinrobot]

31. Yes, the Tesla motor means it is FAST.

I'm planning to upgrade to a newer EV next year, and I will miss that aspect of it.

Sad about Toyota as well. They could have been a contender.

[Miguelito Loveless]

42. Yes, the Rav4 have "Sport" mode

an early version of "insane mode". Dropped the 0-60 to under 6 seconds.

[Silent3]

15. I'm happy with my Volt, but that's got gas power as an option

95% of the time it functions as a purely electric car for me, but I still depend on the longer range for those times when I need it.

I can see myself going all-electric by time I'm ready to buy my next car (hopefully not anytime really soon), but I wasn't comfortable with that when I bought the Volt about two years ago.

[Miguelito Loveless]

24. The Volt is an example of brilliant engineering

that GM is still capable of, when it tries. Sadly, they never tried to sell the car and discontinued it in 2019. I highly recommend it for people who are worried about range, but wish to drive electric.

A nurse friend who does home visitation for medically fragile children has been driving her Chevy Bolt (all electric) 100-150 miles a day for almost two years, and it has never let her down.

[Miguelito Loveless]

22. I have driven a Nissan Leaf (2012)

daily since 2014 to work. More than enough range for that and typical errands. We replaced our other gas car with a Chevy Volt, which was a PHEV with 53 miles of electric range. Between those two, our gasoline consumption for the house hold dropped from 800+ gallons a year to 40+. We have since replaced the Volt the a Model 3, and haven't burned a drop of gasoline since.

[Initech]

25. I think the biggest turn off currently is the cost.

Right now a Nissan Leaf runs $31K and any decently equipped model is going to run $42K. A Tesla model 3 base model runs $37K and any decently equipped model runs about $52K. Even a hybrid gas-electric like the Honda Clarity runs $33K - $42K with any decent option package.

[tinrobot]

29. You can get a new Chevy Bolt for less than $25k in many places.

I'm actually seeing ones for under $22K here in Southern California.

The Leaf still qualifies for the $7500 credit, which also can bring it under $25k.

And a good quality used EV can be had for $10-20k.

[PNW-Dem]

39. Price depends on the market segment

When it comes to comparing the price of EVs to comparable gas-powered cars, it depends on the market segment. For example, in the luxury mid-size category, EVs are priced at or below the price of comparable gas-powered cars.

In the economy market segment today, EVs are still priced at a premium, but you will need to factor in incentives. The US federal government and state governments offer tax credits, tax deductions, and other incentives that lower the cost of buying and operating an EV. The largest tax deduction is the $7,500 that is offered by the US federal government. This deduction no longer applies to Tesla because they have shipped too many electric vehicles to qualify for the program, but it does apply to other manufacturers.

evpubs.com

[BSdetect]

28. The real savings was buying Tesla shares. Made enough to buy many EVs or maybe their semi or three.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

48. Head smack!

If only I'd thought of that!

[Hermit-The-Prog]

50. Before clicking, I knew there would be lots of marketing in here for petroleum powered vehicles.

EVs have been viable commuter cars since the '60s. Even lead-acid based conversion EVs have been capable of handling around 80% of U.S. commutes since then.

The main problem with EVs has been and is the fact that they eliminate multiple revenue streams for manufacturers of petroleum powered vehicles.

[Zorro]

51. I have driven cross-country 5 times now in my early model Teslas

California-Florida-California, ~2500 miles one-way.

It's a 5 day drive either in an ICE car or EV, although I did manage to do it once in 4 days (Florida-California) because I was in a hurry.

I was more rested when arriving at my daily destinations driving the EVs, and I stayed at hotels where I could charge the car overnight.

Teslas map your supercharger stops and required durations on the touchscreen to help reduce range anxiety.

[Miguelito Loveless]

54. Also, even the basic level autopilot

takes a LOT of stress of driving by keeping you at a fixed speed with a fixed distance between you and other cars.

[Zorro]

55. I agree

It's also great in LA's stop-and-go freeway traffic. One doesn't realize just how stressful such low-speed velocities can be.

[wackadoo wabbit]

56. The average range of a gas-powered car is only 275 miles? That's insane!

My 2004 Prius with 215k miles on it (so the battery's a bit worn) still has a range of more than 400 miles. I never even think of filling it up until I've driven at least 350 miles.

I thought the only real advantage of a gas car was that it had a much longer range than an EV. Apparently not.

Wow, regular gas-powered cars really do suck!

[Sgent]

57. My only issue is hurricanes

280 miles is plenty for me, and I would stop at a supercharger for the few times a year I might need more.

That said, in the last 12 years I've had to evacuate for hurricanes twice, and I have no confidence how well they will hold up in that situation -- much of which is at idle or 2-5 mph. My last evacuation took 15 hours for a trip that is routinely 5 - 5 1/2 hours, and for the first 200 miles and 11 hours I couldn't even get off the interstate. With a car I can strap 10g of fuel to the back and be fine, or worst case get fuel from the trucks that run, but an EV means I'm stuck.

Its also semi-routine to be without power for 2-10 days. Gas stations might have generators for their pumps, but no one has enough electric for super charging.

I think my next car is likely to be a Toyota hybrid, but still not sure.

[Codeine]

59. Well, they don't idle.

That’s gotta help.