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The Blue Flower

(5,442 posts)
Sat Nov 14, 2020, 07:14 PM Nov 2020

Does anyone remember Barbara Tuchman's book A Distant Mirror?

It was about the sociological, economic, and historic consequences of the black plague in the 1300s. When it was published in the early 90s, people were afraid of the rising numbers of AIDS patients and the fact that there was no treatment. That was the reason for the title. I'm wondering if we have the imagination to project what happens when covid-19 deaths and longterm effects are in the millions.

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Does anyone remember Barbara Tuchman's book A Distant Mirror? (Original Post) The Blue Flower Nov 2020 OP
Yes. Very great book. ananda Nov 2020 #1
Yes, excellent book. Gave me insight into sociological implications of events. SharonAnn Nov 2020 #16
Yes, excellent book. Gave me insight into sociological implications of events. SharonAnn Nov 2020 #17
It was originally published in 1978 before anyone knew about AIDS (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Nov 2020 #2
I stand corrected--thanks The Blue Flower Nov 2020 #7
I do indeed. Read it in my early twenties. Mister Ed Nov 2020 #3
That book has a special place in my heart lanlady Nov 2020 #4
Unless it kills something approaching 1/3 of the population, Crunchy Frog Nov 2020 #5
Absolutely remember it. I used it as a source for a term paper I wrote in 1982. Pacifist Patriot Nov 2020 #6
I Have That Book colsohlibgal Nov 2020 #8
I read it and enjoyed it thoroughly. It's excellent... Hekate Nov 2020 #9
What a coincidence ... earthside Nov 2020 #10
I have never gotten around to reading it, even though I've long intended to. PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2020 #11
I love "The Doomsday Book." tblue37 Nov 2020 #13
Yeah. PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2020 #15
"To Say Nothing of the Dog" is another of her books that I love. tblue37 Nov 2020 #18
Yes. That's a delight also. PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2020 #19
No, but I will now! tblue37 Nov 2020 #20
Yes, do so! PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2020 #22
How did the Bubonic Plague make the Italian Renaissance possible? Celerity Nov 2020 #12
I read this book back in the late seventies...always liked Tuchman's work pecosbob Nov 2020 #14
Thanks for the reminder! bif Nov 2020 #21
Yep. jeffreyi Nov 2020 #23

ananda

(28,858 posts)
1. Yes. Very great book.
Sat Nov 14, 2020, 07:18 PM
Nov 2020

It also highlighted the class divide, and the way the
nobles of manors controlled the peasants and ended
uprisings.

This was very eye-opening.

Mister Ed

(5,930 posts)
3. I do indeed. Read it in my early twenties.
Sat Nov 14, 2020, 07:27 PM
Nov 2020

Subtitle was, "The Calamitous Fourteenth Century", and calamitous it was. The Black Plague, though indescribably horrifying, was only part of the picture.

Very well-written book. A history that read like a novel.

lanlady

(7,134 posts)
4. That book has a special place in my heart
Sat Nov 14, 2020, 07:30 PM
Nov 2020

Many years ago I visited Coucy le Chateau to discover the place that Tuchman wrote about. I met and fell in love with a Frenchman there. Although we never married, we stayed in touch over the years and we have visited the chateau together many times since.

Roi ne suis, ne prince, ne duc, ne comte aussi; Je suis le sire de Coucy

Crunchy Frog

(26,579 posts)
5. Unless it kills something approaching 1/3 of the population,
Sat Nov 14, 2020, 07:31 PM
Nov 2020

a black plague comparison isn't really relevant.

The fatality rate for the 1918 flu was much larger, and it was largely forgotten.

Pacifist Patriot

(24,653 posts)
6. Absolutely remember it. I used it as a source for a term paper I wrote in 1982.
Sat Nov 14, 2020, 07:31 PM
Nov 2020

Originally published in 1978, it's an excellent book.

To answer your query, no, I do not think most of us have the capacity to truly comprehend what the sociological, economic, and historic consequences will be. I have my suspicions, but I expect I'll be wrong. I hope I'll be very very wrong in a good way.

Hekate

(90,662 posts)
9. I read it and enjoyed it thoroughly. It's excellent...
Sat Nov 14, 2020, 07:34 PM
Nov 2020

I made no connection to AIDS, though. The Black Death played no favorites, and you couldn’t just decide to abstain or do safe sex. People locked themselves in their homes or castles, and still it entered (they didn’t know about rats or fleas).

However recent comments by historians pointed out the degree to which European social structures were upended by so much death so fast. Some have said it presaged the end of the Middle Ages, ultimately presaging the Renaissance. I can’t quite recall how they figured that latter...

So here we are. COVID is an extreme disruptor of social norms, as well as a killer. Work from home, school’s out, millions unemployed overnight. Jared’s property managers are poised to evict hundreds of tenants into a dark and terrible winter, and I am sure they are not the only ones.

No Renaissance in sight.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,852 posts)
11. I have never gotten around to reading it, even though I've long intended to.
Sat Nov 14, 2020, 10:22 PM
Nov 2020

For an excellent fictional depiction of the black death, read The Doomsday Book by Connie Willis.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,852 posts)
15. Yeah.
Sun Nov 15, 2020, 01:00 AM
Nov 2020

And Connie Willis is one of my favorite writers. I know she's working on a book about Roswell, and I can hardly wait for it to come out.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,852 posts)
22. Yes, do so!
Sun Nov 15, 2020, 03:11 PM
Nov 2020

You will really like them.

Because I go to s-f things, I have met Connie a number of times. She is one of the sharpest, funniest human beings I have ever met.

Celerity

(43,333 posts)
12. How did the Bubonic Plague make the Italian Renaissance possible?
Sat Nov 14, 2020, 10:52 PM
Nov 2020
https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_the_Bubonic_Plague_make_the_Italian_Renaissance_possible%3F

The Black Death (1347-1350) was a pandemic that devastated the populations of Europe and Asia. The plague was an unprecedented human tragedy in Italy. It not only shook Italian society but transformed it. The Black Death marked an end of an era in Italy, its impact was profound, and it resulted in wide-ranging social, economic, cultural and religious changes.[1] These changes, directly and indirectly, led to the emergence of the Renaissance, one of the greatest epochs for art, architecture, and literature in human history.

The Impact of the Plague of Italy

To Black Death spread to Italy from modern-day Russia. Genoese merchants spread the plague while fleeing a Mongol attack on their trading post in Crimea. The plague was carried and spread by the fleas that lived on the Black Rat and brought to Italy on the Genoese ships.[2] The population of Italy was ill prepared for the spread of the disease. There had been a series of famine and food shortages in the region, and the population was weak and vulnerable to disease, and furthermore, the population did not have any natural resistance to the disease. Italy was the most urbanized society in Europe, Milan, Rome, Florence, and other Italian centers among the largest on the continent.[3] The majority of the urban population in cities such as Naples were impoverished and lived in squalid and dirty conditions. These factors ensured that the diseases spread quickly and that there was a high level of mortality, among the poor, although even the rich could not escape the plague.[4] From the cities, the plague spread like wildfire to the small towns and villages of the peninsula.

There is no firm data on the impact of the plague on the population of Italy. However, some examples show the full extent of the disease in Italy. The plague halved the population of Florence. The population crashed and fell from approximately 100,000 to 50,000. The experience of Florence was replicated across all the major cities of Italy which also experienced similar drastic declines. The death rate in rural Italy was not nearly as high, but there was a significant loss of life. In general, the total population of Italy may have dropped by as much as a third.[5] The Black Death was also an economic crisis as trade ceased because of fear of the spread of plague. As trade stagnated, businesses failed, and unemployment rose. The plague caused a complete social breakdown in many areas. Boccaccio in the Decameron, describes people abandoning their occupations, ignoring the sick and living lives of wild excess, as everyone expected to die.

"Thus, doing exactly as they prescribed, they spent day and night moving from one tavern to the next, drinking without mode or measure, or doing the same thing in other people's homes, engaging only in those activities that gave them pleasure….. And they combined this bestial behavior with as complete an avoidance of the sick as they could manage."[6]


Socio-Economic Consequences............

snip



great short podcast on the subject of the Black Death and other plagues

Hardcore History 13 - Bubonic Nukes



https://pca.st/episode/a5a57e4c-81fa-4807-b9cb-b9cd42848a55

What would happen if half the population died in a short period of time? Dan looks at the Black Death and other plagues that created almost apocalyptic conditions in the past...and maybe in the future.

bif

(22,697 posts)
21. Thanks for the reminder!
Sun Nov 15, 2020, 02:52 PM
Nov 2020

I bought it years ago and never read it. Just put in on my nightstand and am going to dig into it tonight!

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