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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSelf pardon Questions again. IF Rump self pardons, in last hours of his presidency
Will it be OVERTURNED? WHO would lead on this? (I'm sure SOMEBODY will NOT let this stand as law of the land)
Response to bluestarone (Original post)
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Gothmog
(144,945 posts)From Prof. Tribe and others https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/no-trump-cant-pardon-himself-the-constitution-tells-us-so/2017/07/21/f3445d74-6e49-11e7-b9e2-2056e768a7e5_story.html?utm_term=.a066d8b411f4
The Justice Department was right that guidance could be found in the enduring principles that no one can be both the judge and the defendant in the same matter, and that no one is above the law.
The Constitution specifically bars the president from using the pardon power to prevent his own impeachment and removal. It adds that any official removed through impeachment remains fully subject to criminal prosecution. That provision would make no sense if the president could pardon himself.
The pardon provision of the Constitution is there to enable the president to act essentially in the role of a judge of another persons criminal case, and to intervene on behalf of the defendant when the president determines that would be equitable. For example, the president might believe the courts made the wrong decision about someones guilt or about sentencing; President Barack Obama felt this way about excessive sentences for low-level drug offenses. Or the president might be impressed by the defendants subsequent conduct and, using powers far exceeding those of a parole board, might issue a pardon or commutation of sentence.....
President Trump thinks he can do a lot of things just because he is president. He says that the president can act as if he has no conflicts of interest. He says that he can fire the FBI director for any reason he wants (and he admitted to the most outrageous of reasons in interviews and in discussion with the Russian ambassador). In one sense, Trump is right he can do all of these things, although there will be legal repercussions if he does. Using official powers for corrupt purposes such as impeding or obstructing an investigation can constitute a crime.
But there is one thing we know that Trump cannot do without being a first in all of human history. He cannot pardon himself.
elleng
(130,767 posts)'The Constitution specifically bars the president from using the pardon power to prevent his own impeachment and removal. It adds that any official removed through impeachment remains fully subject to criminal prosecution. That provision would make no sense if the president could pardon himself.'
csziggy
(34,131 posts)But Justice Department guidelines have prevented it ever since Nixon. Until someone is willing to take either case (self pardons or indictment) to the Supreme Court the current guidelines will stand.
elleng
(130,767 posts)only has the force 'we' chose to give it; it is not law.
csziggy
(34,131 posts)So it holds the weight of law - until it is tested. If no one ever has the guts to test it, it might as well be law. And Republican presidents since Nixon have pushed the limits of tolerance on this point far too many times.
LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,568 posts)It's never been codified or turned into a regulation. Everyone just accepts it without question.
elleng
(130,767 posts)lastlib
(23,167 posts)And I hope she does!
bluestarone
(16,872 posts)I know it would IF it were a Democrat were doing it!
Response to Gothmog (Reply #2)
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StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Any Supreme Court ruling permitting a president to self-pardon could likely be extended to the states, thereby allowing governors to pardon themselves.
Imagine what a complete mess that would be!?
bluestarone
(16,872 posts)WOW !
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,614 posts)would be for a US Attorney to try to indict him for a federal crime after he has issued his self-pardon. His defense would be that he can't be prosecuted because of the pardon, and the question would eventually make its way to the Supreme Court. Most legal scholars seem to think he can't do it. But even if the court says he can, he can't pardon himself for state crimes, and the Manhattan D.A. is already investigating tax and other crimes.
bluestarone
(16,872 posts)IF not addressed, would that set precedence? ( for ALL future presidents) OR could the SC decide to wait for a Dem. president? THEN rule against them? (him or her) What do you think would happen? I wonder if Kamala would ask the S Court for a decision?
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,614 posts)you can't just ask them for a decision where there's no disputed case for them to review. If Trump pardons himself and he's indicted anyhow, he'd use the pardon as a defense, and this would be an actual case that could make its way up to the Supreme Court. That decision would set the precedent for future pardons. But unless that happens the issue will remain undecided.
bluestarone
(16,872 posts)I have to ask this though. IF Rump self pardons like you mentioned,(use the pardon as defense) WHO would (should) take the case to the SC? Would THIS have to go through the whole court system? lower courts all the way to the SC? TY again
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,614 posts)Long answer: A likely scenario would be that Trump pardons himself, but a federal prosecutor, having evidence that one or more federal crimes have been committed, has a grand jury convened anyhow. The evidence is presented to the grand jury, which returns an indictment. Trump petitions to quash the indictment on the ground that he's been pardoned; a federal district court decides whether to grant the petition and that decision is appealed to the appropriate circuit court of appeals; then, however it is decided at that point, the losing party (either Trump or the government, by the US Attorney's office) petitions the Supreme Court for a writ of certiorari, which almost certainly would be granted. This process will take months. In the meantime, the Manhattan D.A. is licking his chops because no matter how the federal case is decided, Trump can't pardon himself for state crimes, of which he has doubtless committed many in New York.
bluestarone
(16,872 posts)If we get both houses, can a law be passed that CLEARLY states President CANNOT self pardon? Or is this a constitutional process?
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,614 posts)any law passed by Congress prohibiting self-pardons would likely be challenged. Whether the challenge would be successful probably depends on whether the constitutional originalists on the court think that the absence of a restriction in the wording means there are no restrictions.
bluestarone
(16,872 posts)You've helped me understand the process better!! HOPE we do not have to go there with Rump self pardoning! Have a good day!!
LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,568 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,614 posts)In Burdick v. United States (1915) the Supreme Court wrote that a pardon carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it. Since then it's been assumed that the acceptance of a pardon is the equivalent of a guilty plea, or at least an admission that the pardoned crime was committed. However, Burdick was about a different issue - the ability to turn down a pardon. The language about imputing and confessing guilt was just dicta (a comment without legal affect). The court meant that, as a practical matter, a person might not want to accept a pardon because it might make him look guilty. In some cases, pardons have been given to exonerate people who were not guilty. They are not a legal declaration of guilt.
sarisataka
(18,500 posts)Similar to when a person takes the Fifth Amendment, the public assumes the testimony would have been incriminating. That is not necessarily the case. Accepting a pardon also seems to imply there was a crime.
In both cases they are legally neutral. There is no admission or legal implications of guilt.
The court of public opinion however may read into either case whatever they wish.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)exboyfil
(17,862 posts)In hindsight Carter's AG should have challenged the Constitutionality of Ford's generic pardon to Nixon. At a minimum only specified crimes already indicted or specific actions should be pardoned. Also some sort of allocution should come from the party receiving the pardon.
Since this is how the GOP rolls. In the future there is no walkaway from corruption. It has just emboldened the GOP after every one (torpedoing the Paris Peace Conference, Watergate, torpedoing Iran Hostage crisis, Iran Contra, and lying about WMD in Iraq).
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,614 posts)unless they have a case before them. The only way they could decide whether a president can pardon himself is if the president were indicted for a crime and used his-self pardon as a defense.
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)would file charges. In that way the SC would go on record as the pardon appeal by either party finally makes its way to them.
I should have been clearer in my response. That is why I would have wanted Carter's DOJ to also challenge Ford's pardon of Nixon.
matt819
(10,749 posts)For trump, there's always NYC and NYS, to say nothing of other local and state investigations.
And unless he pardons "everyone," there's always the vile spawn, their spouses, and all the hangers-on.
One by one by one.
Statistical
(19,264 posts)Unconstitutional.
Keep in mind if Presidents can self pardon then it applies to all future Presidents include Democratic ones. It means the President is 100% above the law federally. He can't be prosecuted until he leaves office and he can self pardon himself before he does.
The end state would be all Presidents beyond the rule of law and as a matter of course self pardoning before leaving office to grant themselves unlimited immunity. The office of the Presidency would be subject to no (federal) rule of law.
Not even the rightwingers want to see that. It would be the judiciary massively reducing the power of the judiciary branch and forever elevating the power of the executive branch. The judiciary branch to include SCOTUS. SCOTUS voting to make SCOTUS impotent against the power of the now even more powerful Presidency.
bluestarone
(16,872 posts)I believe the SC, ALREADY ruled NO ONE is above the law.
onenote
(42,608 posts)bluestarone
(16,872 posts)onenote
(42,608 posts)Which dealt with the issue of whether a president has "absolute immunity" from legal process. Which isn't the same question as whether a president can self-pardon. Moreover, the majority opinion in that case didn't recite the maxim that "no man is above the law" -- it was Kavanaugh, in a concurring opinion, that quoted that language.
bluestarone
(16,872 posts)TY! That's why we have great minds here!!
essme
(1,207 posts)I don't care if he pardons himself, and order a fucking lifetime supply of Hershey's Kisses.
Just get the fuck out, and take your goddamned trashy assed family with you. Go sit in fucking Palm Beach and play bridge, or golf or whatever it is you want to do.
Just get out.
kimbutgar
(21,060 posts)I cant wait to use this logic on a right winger. I made my husbands nephews head explore once by asking him questions that tricked and confused him, the kid never messed with me again.
bluestarone
(16,872 posts)IF he SELF pardons and excepts it, HE admits guilt. That's the way i see it.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,614 posts)bluestarone
(16,872 posts)SELF PARDON!!! That's who he is!!
beachbumbob
(9,263 posts)if it is, then trump will be at the mercy of the DOJ. I hope he chances is it. The rules of pardons and such is not to pardon ONESELF, otherwise Governors would have been doing it
bluestarone
(16,872 posts)WILL he take that chance? If the SC were to rule AGAINST him he would, like you say be able to be CHARGED for federal crimes!
MineralMan
(146,262 posts)and let Pence pardon him, something that could not be questioned.
He can do that as late as the day before Biden's inauguration, since Pence would be sworn in immediately upon Trump's resignation and could issue a blanket pardon for Trump forthwith.
But Trump is more clever than that. If he chooses to resign, he'll do so somewhat earlier, to allow him to get his belongings moved out before the new President moves in.
Resignation and a pardon from Pence is the only safe route for Trump to take. He will do what is safest for himself, no doubt.
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)but what pressure will he put on Pence? I see the scene from the Godfather where Trump gives Pence an offer he can't refuse. Also what about pardons in both directions? Trump general pardon for Pence. Then Pence general pardon for Trump. Did the Founders have that in mind?
OnDoutside
(19,948 posts)cross Trump....can you imagine the Trumpers pursuing Pence for the rest of his life ?
MineralMan
(146,262 posts)Mike Pence has been a reliable toady from the beginning. He would never have been VP without Trump. If Trump resigns, he will be the 46th US President and be entered into the history books as such. He could never be elected as President, so that's his one chance for that title.
I doubt that Pence needs a pardon, really. He has almost no authority, and so has not done anything that would get him prosecuted, really. So, his pardon of Trump is in the bag already. It may even have been written already, as has Trump's most likely.
For me, the question is only when this will happen. I suspect it will happen a week or so before Biden's inauguration. That would give Trump time to get out and moved back to Merde-a-Gonzo, where he can safely hide until he figures out how to deal with his state charged or to move out of the USA.
The Founders? No, I'm sure they never considered such a thing. They believed that US Presidents would be pretty much honorable men, and that the threat of impeachment and removal would be enough to keep them so. They were wrong. They would not recognize the US Government as it has come to be, I think.
OnDoutside
(19,948 posts)was why WOULDN'T he take a pardon ? There's every likelihood that he committed crimes that we don't even know about yet, at the Federal level, so why wouldn't he inoculate himself from those ? The State charges are a different matter but at least he wouldn't be fighting on two fronts.
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)I think the Marc Rich pardon did damage to Hillary Clinton. It doesn't seem that it rolls that way with the Republicans though. When they get pardons, they are heroes.
He and his spawn and his closest allies all will get general pardons like Ford's pardon to Nixon. I think he also gets his pardon as well. There is no downside. It is currency that goes away on January 20th (I hope).
OnDoutside
(19,948 posts)in fact Republicans think Nixon was harshly treated ! I agree they will be viewed as heroes.
beachbumbob
(9,263 posts)Invalidates an indictment, charges going forward. Do presidential pardons have some requirements on tge pardon is based on acknowledging guilt? So DOJ investigates, issues an indictment, the pardon is used, now trump has admitted to the guilt....this was never tested with Nixon
OnDoutside
(19,948 posts)If that happens, I'd be shocked if Democrats followed that up with an investigation, especially with a 6 3 conservative Supreme court. Of course if McConnell decides to block any Democratic bill, then Democrats will have plenty of time over the next two years to go after Trump and Republicans.
marie999
(3,334 posts)Would you like him in a federal prison or Rikers Island and then Sing Sing?
Takket
(21,529 posts)if this somehow landed at SCOTUS they are going to test this theory with hypothetical to test the principle.
that's going to look like....
a SCOTUS justice is going to ask "so let's say the president takes a sniper rifle and goes up the roof, and kills an American citizen. the police rush in and he announces he is pardoning himself, and they back off. he reloads, and executes one of the officers that just tried to arrest him. again they move in and again he announces he is pardoning himself. This is a scenario that is possible if the president can pardon himself, and there is no possible interpretation of the constitution in which this was an intended reality of the use of the pardon power."
and it dies right there.
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)Given the propensity of the opposition towards corruption, graft, lies and crimes, the founders really, really fucked up by not circumscribing pardon powers.
OTOH, the Supreme Court should, under ordinary conditions and applying proper precedents, deem that no President is above the law, no President should be able to skirt prosecution for crimes committed prior to entry in office, even during his or her tenure, and no President should be able to be pardoned or pardon oneself for crimes committed while in office.
HOW HARD IS THAT?