From an Ultrasound Technician....

[Heartstrings]

Let’s get info from the people who do this for a living. This Ultrasound Technician says:

“So here’s the thing:

This Alabama-abortion-ban is a big deal, in a very bad way. Ohio, Missouri, Georgia, Mississippi, Arkansas, Kentucky… I’m looking at you too, but we’re going to focus on Alabama. If you’ve been living under a rock, let me catch you up. Alabama Governor, Kay Ivey, just signed a total abortion ban into law, the most restrictive law in the United States. The law will ban abortion at every stage of pregnancy for every reason.

This is not okay, not reasonable, and definitely not acceptable.

If you don’t know me well, maybe you don’t know what I do for a living. I’m an ultrasound technologist. My colleagues and I look at babies in every stage of pregnancy every day. I also work in a high risk unit. My unit and I look at babies and mothers in varying states of mental and physical health. If you think an abortion ban sounds good, then I am a good person to ask about why it isn’t.

So let me tell you:

About the woman whose baby developed with no skull, and the brain just floating around. Her baby still had a heartbeat, and she would not be able to access abortion.

About the woman whose baby has a rare chromosomal condition called T13. Her baby’s organs grew outside its body, and had a cleft palate so bad that there was no nose. She would not be able to access abortion.

About the woman whose blood pressure is spiking so high that she passes out and is likely to stroke out before her baby is born. She would not be able to access abortion.

About the woman with such a severe form of hemophilia that giving birth will probably be fatal to both her and the baby. She would not be able to access abortion.

About the 13 year old whose school isn’t allowed to teach her science-based sex-education, so she didn’t know how to prevent pregnancy or STIs, but whose body is not developed enough to carry to term without being damaged. She would not be able to access abortion.

About the woman who was raped by a friend who wanted to “make sure she got home safely”. She would not be able to access abortion.

About the woman who has PCOS so only has periods every 3-4 months and can’t find a birth control that works for her. She would not be able to access abortion.

About the woman whose abusive partner removed the condom without telling her (it’s called stealthing, and it happens more frequently than you’d think). She would not be able to access abortion.

About the woman with the cornual ectopic pregnancy that isn’t reliably in the uterus, and could grow to a size that will kill her. She would not be able to access abortion.

About the woman who has two kids she can barely feed already, and whose birth control just increased in price. She would not be able to access abortion.

About the 18 year old who just started college and is going to be the first graduate of the family if she can just stay in school. She would not be able to access abortion.

About the woman whose IUD slipped slightly and is now endangering both her and the pregnancy it was designed to prevent. She would not be able to access abortion.

About the many, many, many women who just don’t want to be pregnant for reasons that are their own. Health issues, abusive relationships, financial issues, social issues. They would not be able to access abortion.

Some of these might sound like reasonable exceptions to you. And you would be correct. But no one should get to decide what happens with another person’s body, not even to save a life. You need written permission from a corpse before life saving organs can be taken from them. You cannot be forced to donate blood, no matter how dire the situation. And no one else should get to decide what a woman does with her body, end of story.

But it’s not the end of the story, is it? Because here’s the kicker: if you consider abortion to be a murder (and some people genuinely believe that!) then miscarriage can be second degree murder. And this is already happening all over the world - El Salvador, Ecuador, and the US of A. Women are being jailed for miscarriages and stillbirths because they might have done something to cause it. If you start down this path of jailing women and doctors for making healthcare decisions that affect no one but themselves, then you get women who don’t go to a doctor for a safe procedure and instead order pills online or use whatever metal instruments they can find to end their own pregnancies. Women who are honestly experiencing a miscarriage (which is medically called a spontaneous abortion, just fyi) will not go to their doctor for help. They will bleed out on their bathroom floors or die of septic shock. And I haven’t even talked about how this will disproportionately affect women of color, LGBTQA+ women, or trans men. This isn’t about the “sanctity of life” anymore. It’s about controlling women.”



Credit to Sena Garven On Facebook

[roamer65]

1. This is exactly why I am for ZERO cost abortion on demand at any time during a pregnancy.

It is a basic human right for women to choose, without any interference or financial worries.

[AZ8theist]

6. I'm a rational human being and I approve this message.

[PTWB]

19. At any time for any reason?

As someone who is strongly pro-choice, I have difficulty justifying my position the further along one gets in a pregnancy.

I am not sure how I could do so in a hypothetical situation where a pregnant woman chose to abort days before her due date when both she and the fetus were perfectly healthy (and the fetus was long past the point of viability).

I recognize that such a hypothetical isn’t a reality, I’m only using it to illustrate something I struggle with despite my pro-choice views.

I have an easy time supporting universal access to on-demand abortion for anyone and for any reason up to the 24th week of pregnancy, and any time after the 24th week for reasons of medical necessity.

[Hekate]

27. Fortunately, your "hypothetical" never happens

Last edited Sat Nov 28, 2020, 01:00 AM - Edit history (1)

Late term abortions are vanishingly rare and are essentially childbirth either vaginally or by C-section — nothing remotely “convenient.” There is no “baby” to “save” at that point, just a heartbroken woman who thought she was going to have a baby.

They are done to save a woman’s life and/or to deliver her of a non-viable fetus. Everything the OP described actually does happen on occasion. Anencephalic babies, for instance, are born without a brain, and 100% of them die after at most a week. Usually Mother Nature mercifully takes them before then. They aren’t going to be developmentally delayed or retarded — there is literally no brain to remind them to even breathe.

Sometimes a fetus gets pretty far along and just dies for no discernible reason, like my mom’s stillborn boy. If the mom’s body expels it/gives birth to it then she should recover okay. If the fetus is not born or removed, however, it begins to decay fairly soon, and in decaying, it can and will kill the mother.

So there you have it. I hope that eases your mind. Think of it as The Full Range of Women’s Necessary Medical Care, instead of trying to parse the degrees of acceptability of abortion.

[roamer65]

61. Exactly.

Well put.

[burrowowl]

64. Anacephalic babies can't give signal to start labor and

Either rots in the womb or lithezises.

[Hekate]

65. When the issue of "partial birth abortions" came up before the US Congress it was utterly outrageous

....to see these hypocrites, these smug self-righteous assholes in suits, pass judgment on women.

Woman after woman came forward to tell tragic and soul-wrenching personal stories of pregnancies that went horribly wrong in late-term. Some wept at the memories as they told their truth.

The men listened with stony faces. Their minds were made up and they had a point to make, and the point was that women could die for all they cared.

Have I mentioned recently how much I hate the GOP?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

36. Right, because women frequently decide a week or so before the due

date that they'll have an abortion.

What rock do you live under? Oh, wait, you've said it was a hypothetical, not a reality. So why even bring it up? And if YOU are not the one faced with a non-viable fetus, with your life being in danger if you continue the pregnancy, why do you even give a fuck? It is not YOUR life or YOUR pregnancy in question. YOU should not be allowed to decide for anyone else.

[PTWB]

46. I feel like you didn't read the post in it's entirety.

Try again and report back.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

55. I did read it in its

(not it's) entirety.

I just feel that anyone who wants to put restrictions of any kind is falling for the bullshit that women decide to have late term abortions on a whim.

And honestly, even if that happens in one in a million abortions, that's vastly better than the enforced childbirth that the anti-choice people want to enforce. Clearly none of them have ever been faced with the kinds of horrific choices that the OP outlined. And none of us knows enough about someone else's life to make these kinds of decisions for them.

[PTWB]

57. Hmm. Did you?

You listed several medical necessities as reasons to have late term abortions.

I specifically said:

I have an easy time supporting universal access to on-demand abortion for anyone and for any reason up to the 24th week of pregnancy, and any time after the 24th week for reasons of medical necessity.

[questionseverything]

59. And we said,"you can decide for you " period

N/t

[calimary]

78. Points VERY well-taken.

Let's boil it down. "It's NOT UP TO YOU."

YOU have NOTHING to do with it.

It's not YOUR blood relation.
It's not YOUR body.
It's not YOUR medical condition.
It's not YOUR life.
It's not YOUR job.
It's not YOUR family dynamic.
It's not YOUR ability to afford or not to afford.
It's not YOUR circumstances OR YOUR personal problem.

Just what is it about a woman's right to control what happens to HER body, in HER life, and in HER unique, personal, and VERY private circumstances and problems that YOU don't get?

And if YOU force her to carry that baby to term, are YOU going to step up and make sure she has the resources or the support system to make a go of it with that baby? Or that she can make all the arrangements for an adoption? What if there's nowhere she can go to get help - because YOU voted to cut funding to services that she'd need in a situation like this - because YOU didn't want to pay taxes?

Or are YOU going to step up and adopt that baby and fork over all the money it'll take - AND all the TIME it'll take - to raise that baby and provide everything it'll need? Are YOU ready to make all those sacrifices?

And what's that YOU say - that YOU'RE "pro-life"?

[roamer65]

53. Yes, any time, any reason.

Last edited Sat Nov 28, 2020, 02:47 AM - Edit history (1)

I feel it is the woman’s right to choose, and no one else’s.

Abortion, adoption, etc should all be up to her and her alone.

I also highly support OTC abortion drugs IF safe and effective.

[demigoddess]

2. good post. fyi, I had 2 miscarriages. One time a doctor read in my

records that I had had 2 "spontaneous abortions" and he scolded me for having had "abortions". Even a doctor did not seem to know the difference.

[ret5hd]

5. Scolded...scolded...

“Uhhhhmmm...fuck you Dr. Smith. My new doctor will call for my records.”

[MustLoveBeagles]

7. I hope you got a different doctor

[Ms. Toad]

14. Any doctor who doesn't understand that spontaneous abortion miscarriage

will be my ex-doctor before the appointment is done.

Pretty sure that is covered in the first year medical curriculum.

[TexasBushwhacker]

20. What a moron

He had no business chastising you, but a "miscarriage" is called a spontaneous abortion by most medical professionals. Furthermore, if the fetus dies and is not spontaneously aborted, it's called a "missed abortion" not a missed miscarriage. A D&C has to be performed to remove the dead fetus and placenta.

[Takket]

43. how long ago was this?

depending on statue of limitations laws you could potentially sue for the doctor falsifying your medical records.

[demigoddess]

97. late 60s and it was a doctor in a military facility.

You don't choose your doctor in military clinics and I was just doing a yearly checkup. When the doctor told me I was pregnant with the first , he told me right away that I would miscarry because I have what they used to call a tipped uterus. It causes miscarriages. I had two in a row. You would think that would also be in my records. But doctors often don't read anything in the records.

[Hav]

76. What an ahole and sorry you had to go through this

My mother had one miscarriage and almost lost the next one, my oldest brother.
It's a trauma you don't forget. And it certainly doesn't get easier because aholes believe their stupid opinion is needed on these personal matters.

[AZ8theist]

3. It's NEVER about the health of the mother. Or the fetus.

It's ALWAYS about the subjugation of women. It's ALWAYS about power and control.
It's why the Taliban force women to wear bags over their heads.
It's why so-called "Christians" pass ridiculous laws subjugating women.

Great post.

[dflprincess]

29. This

[turtleblossom]

38. No, it's about turning white women into baby-making machines (see Lebensborn)

[AZ8theist]

51. No, rich white women will always have access to abortion...

...poor women won't. They will be forced to give birth to supply the workforce and prison-for-profit population.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. Free, on demand, at any time, without apology.

Nothing less.

[WiscNastyWoman]

8. Incredible

One of the most important posts I have read on this site and I have been here as a reader only until this.

[niyad]

10. So glad you came in from the cold to join us officially. Welcome!

[bdamomma]

21. Welcome to DU

nt

You are welcome to join us.

[littlemissmartypants]

33. Welcome to DU. nt

[Heartstrings]

77. Thank you!

And welcome to du!

[procon]

9. Pass the Equal Rights for Women Amendment

Give us the same autonomous control over our persons, our lives, our decisions, our choices that men have taken for granted from the beginning. Give us justice, equality and parity.

[littlemissmartypants]

35. Hear! Hear! ❤ nt

[ancianita]

69. +1,000,000

[love_katz]

11. Huge kick and rec.!!!!!

Plus a gazillion!!!!

[mountain grammy]

12. It's always been about controlling women.

Always.

[RVN VET71]

13. The opponents of abortion oppose it not because it's "baby killing"

They oppose it because of sex. Sex is to them a sin and women who get themselves "in trouble" must pay for their sins. If the fetus is not viable and carrying it to term may, in fact, result in the death of the mother -- well, girl, you sin and you pay the price. And remember we don't cotton to them that wants you to get that sex-education because it'll put ideas into your pure, sweet, virgin heads.

Simple as that. Ignorance straight out of the Bible and Sunday School showing all the compassion and love of a hungry vulture hovering over a nearly dead animal.

I admit to feeling uneasy concerning abortion but I gladly join with the Pro-Choice folks because their opponents tend to be hypocritical and smugly moral about stranger's lives which, frankly, are really and truly no proper or decent concern of their own.

[LymphocyteLover]

26. well, it's marketed as baby killing and it wins a lot of votes for them

[lonely bird]

31. Yes, it is marketed that way.

Of course, they don’t give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut about the baby after it is born.

[LymphocyteLover]

39. Yeah, and I don't know why that argument from Dems, never gets any traction

It's used all the time and they just seem to shrug it off. It's infuriating.

[RVN VET71]

98. Dems are timid and easily terrified of saying something that will lose votes

The Party even today looks on Hillary's description of Trump's followers in 2016 as a gaffe instead of the absolutely on the money bold and accurate statement it was: Trump's people, goddammit, are deplorables. But the Dem Party backed away from it because they were afraid -- get this! -- that if they didn't they might lose votes! WTF? She correctly characterized a group of people who were in no way, shape, or form going to vote for a woman or a Democrat, period. But if she'd had the Party at her back, she would have felt emboldened to continue attacking and, in my opinion, garnered more support among "uncertain" voters than she did, possibly enough to win and kick Donnie Diaper out of history.

And the Dems back away from saying much of anything to counter the GOP's bullshit "baby killing" lie because, again, the Party is timid and afraid that if they go after the root causes for GOP opposition they'd lose the votes of people who are never ever ever going to vote Democratic anyhow.

Give the Dems a smoking gun and they hide the damned thing. Biden/Harris are going to do extremely well, but don't expect them to pursue the traitorous acts of the GOP over the last 4 years or to hammer at the Trump Admin's improprieties and crimes of greed and callow grifting. If they did, they would do better, much better IMHO They'd solidify the Democratic base of 80+ million and, by shedding light (through the courts) on the Trump Admin's criminality and lack of loyalty to America, chip away a few (or more) millions of the 73 million or so sots and droolers who voted for Diaper Donnie in 2020.

[LymphocyteLover]

99. I hear you! Always the liberals lament-- how cowering this party is

ever afraid of scaring people away rather than winning people over with righteousness

[roamer65]

62. It's also about race.

How often does one see anti-choice billboards with minority babies on them?

Anti-choice freaks get amazing quiet on the topic of abortions with minority women.

[Duppers]

89. Just a note...

Married women have abortions too.
But yes, sex outside of marriage is a "sin" to them.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

15. K&R. Excellent for reference. Bookmarking.

Thank you.........

[Hermit-The-Prog]

16. Where is the just compensation for the government taking over a woman's body?

[SharonAnn]

71. A government that an ban abortion can require abortion.

Think of China and the one child policy. Etc.
They can force contraception.

They can sterilize you.
If the government can control your reproductive abilities, they can control all parts of it.

[cp]

17. Thank you

[smirkymonkey]

18. K&R

[bdamomma]

22. Excellent post

I will reiterate as some posters have already said, "it's all about controlling women".

We will not be controlled and our choices will not be either. It is time to move on.

[Hekate]

23. "I Can't Believe I Still Have to Protest This Shit"

My late mother, born 1924 just as a point of reference, had 4 live births, one full-term stillbirth, and 2 miscarriages. All in under 10 years. The stillbirth broke her heart, and the miscarriages almost killed her— one from hemorrhaging so severe she ended up having an out of body experience on the surgical table, and the other with chronic bleeding for months.

The story ends well: dad had a vasectomy while she was pregnant with my youngest brother. They were not ignorant people, they were just poor, and contraceptives weren’t reliable enough.

I’ve known any number of women who were raped, date-raped, poor, had other urgent business, had an unsustainable pregnancy... I’ve been lucky, but not everyone is.

Me? I became a lifelong supporter of Planned Parenthood, have volunteered, written, marched, protested, and donated. The last sign I made for myself? “I CAN’T BELIEVE I STILL HAVE TO PROTEST THIS SH*T”

When I finally cleared the smokescreen of RW lies, I realized once and for all that the only thing they want is control over women’s lives, bodies, and consciences, because on some level they think all we are is dangerous animals who can’t be trusted.

[locks]

24. If men could get pregnant

we'd never have any "born" children.

[LymphocyteLover]

25. 100% this will kill women ... it's evil

there's got to be a backlash that will destroy this anti-abortion idiocy/evil once and for all

[Nitram]

28. Thank you for a very important and scientific perspective that we rarely hear in such detail.

[betsuni]

30. K&R

[CaliforniaPeggy]

32. Superb post! Thank you for showing and telling the truth.

It is about control!

We are way overdue to have all the control we need to successfully manage our lives in every detail.

[Sogo]

34. Excellent post, and

information that I will be sharing when Pro-Lifers get on their high horse about "morality."

Thank you for sharing.

[littlemissmartypants]

37. Kicked and recommended. ❤ nt

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

40. How about this?

All males get castrated at age 10. No unwanted pregnancies, that's for sure.

Alternatively, all men must have their DNA on file, and all babies have their DNA checked at birth. The fathers are permanently on the hook for child support including money for at least community college.

Among the many problems, and to me the primary one, is that women and women alone wind up responsible for pregnancy and babies. I'll admit, when I read something about a single mother of x number of children, where x is greater than 1, I'm inclined to get a bit judgemental. However, the real issue is that the father(s) of the children aren't around, and the woman is the one who does everything.

I've long thought that the best way to bring about change would be for women to leave their babies and young children with the fathers to raise. Unfortunately, or more probably fortunately, most women understand what a disaster that would be for the kids, and don't do so. But until men take on a fuck of a lot more true responsibility, nothing will change.

I HATED Kramer vs Kramer because the Dustin Hoffman was considered a saint for doing what literally millions of women do every single day. And the Meryl Steep character was vilified for doing what men all too often do.

[Heartstrings]

42. And child support should begin when a heartbeat is detected.

And that “Kramer vs Kramer” comparison is spot on!

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

44. Well, since doing DNA testing that early might

be more invasive than is appropriate, I'd suggest we simply back-date it to that point.

[Heartstrings]

47. That'll work!

[Retrograde]

50. I'd say between 14-16

and it should just be a vasectomy, with an option to store sperm for limited future use, with a woman fully understands the implications and consents.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

56. I'd be willing to go along with that, because

my solution is drastic enough to shut down all reproduction, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

[roamer65]

63. I've used my nuggets responsibly.

Please don’t take them from me.



Also, what about gay men? I don’t think they should have to suffer for the transgressions of straight men.

[Pantagruel]

74. "all men must have their DNA on file

, and all babies have their DNA checked at birth. The fathers are permanently on the hook for child support including money for at least community college."


This country can't even get all guns registered or even a national ID. Good luck but your point is valid, men should either shoulder more of the burden of pregnancies or simply leave the reproductive decisions to each woman.

[wnylib]

84. I call that film, Shamer vs Shamer

for its bias.

[AlexSFCA]

41. it's interesting how so many anti-abortion activists are also against contraception

and sex education for that matter.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

45. I know.

It is interesting.

I also notice that the vast majority of anti-abortion activists are not very likely to ever be pregnant themselves. Isn't that curious?

[StarryNite]

48. Ironically it's usually the so called "pro life" people who refuse to wear masks to protect others

and themselves. They won't wear a mask but they will refuse a woman's right to have an abortion even if carrying the baby kills her.

[UTUSN]

49. Re-post:

[napi21]

52. I have a question. Some of the misdeveloped fetuses mentioned in the OP

sound horrible, but wold they actually survive after birth? The fetus whose organs developed outside the body? I know some would, i.e. the cleft pallet.

I don't believe any gov't should be involved in an abortion decision, EVER! It sounds to me like the State is trying to impose THEIR religion on everyone in their State.

[Hekate]

58. Doctors and parents both will go to incredible lengths to save micro-preemies...

...never asking what quality of life might be expected in the end. That’s a choice I respect, actually, although I do think some education about quality of life issues might be in order. Years ago there was a documentary about some of the families involved in such a situation. If there were other children, they were hard-pressed to get any attention for their own needs. I’ve never forgotten the young woman whose first and ultimately only child was so severely compromised he would need her care forever. As she sat next to the forever- baby in his car seat she said that everyone moved heaven and earth to save him, and he was months in the hospital, and everybody around her told her he was a miracle baby. But her resultant life was no miracle.

Since you ask, simple cleft palate is easy to fix — in the developed world. But it actually falls along a spectrum of maxillo-facial deformities that at worst can result in a lifetime of surgeries in an attempt to construct a functional face.

As for the other issues discussed in the OP, they are not always immediately fatal as they would surely have been 30 - 40 - 50 years ago. But organs are designed to develop inside a ribcage and covering of flesh, and the ribcage and flesh are meant to be shaped around a set of organs — and if somehow they do not, nothing will be the right shape and size when a surgeon tries to assemble the kit. If somehow the infant survives the first round of surgeries, there will be more suffering to come.

Ultrasound and other imaging technologies can be a wonderful gift, quite apart from finding out the baby’s sex. There are a tiny few surgeries that can now be done in utero, and what an amazing thing that is. If you have a medical plan, hmmm?

But I will tell you something from my gut: the legislators who pass laws that forbid abortion based on birth defects are immeasurably cruel. I’ve never had an abortion, but I’ve never been placed in that position, either. I will tell you right now — if I had an ultrasound that showed me a second trimester fetus with its organs floating outside its body, or one without a brain, I would cry my eyes out and pray, and schedule an abortion, and thank God I had that option.

[napi21]

60. Thank you so much for your response to my post. I'm with you in that I've never

been in a situation of needing to decide on an abortion either. I'd like to say I would never have one, but if I'm really honest, I'm not so sure. If I were faced with a situation where I found out my baby was deformed in a severe way, I have to acknowledge that I'm not a nursing type caretaker at all, and could I handle such a challenge? I don't know.

[stopdiggin]

87. is there anything even slightly "ethical"

about bring such a life (and suffering on multiple fronts) into the world?

Unless you hinge your ethics on some Sky Pilot that "wants" this result (generally involving much convoluted thought) -- it never adds up to a true concern -- for "life" or much of anything else really.
------ -----

[spanone]

54. K&R

[pansypoo53219]

66. BUBUTBUT EVERY baby is a gerber baby.

NOT. i saw a genetec booboo book when i was a kid.shit happens. i think the fucking GOP needs to pony up MONEY TO SUPPORT ANY CHILD they force on women. babies are also poverty bombs.

1st they came for abortion. next is birth control.

[LittleGirl]

67. Thank you for posting.

Bookmarked for future reference for those pro-life hypocrites.

[lunasun]

68. Kick

[Grins]

70. SAVED AND BOOKMARKED!!!

[keithbvadu2]

72. Pro-life is a myth. Republicans are in favor of killing living babies and have done so.

Republicans are in favor of killing living babies and have done so.

Pro-life is a myth.

The supposed pro-lifers cared naught when the state of Texas (republican gov, republican Prez) deliberately killed living baby Sun Hudson against the mother's wishes because he was an inconvenience to the state.

It is not a matter of life to the supposed pro-lifers.

It is a matter of control.

[JohnnyRingo]

73. They want the Alabama abortion ban to fail in court.

...as it likely will. But then they can appeal to higher courts, until they reach the highest.

They think they finally have the Supreme Court they want, and every activist wants their state to be the one that finally does it.

[wnylib]

85. Finally, after all these posts,

you have brought up the point I was going to make if no one else had.

This Alabama law, as it stands, is a violation of a woman's constitutional rights decided in Roe v Wade. So, when it is challenged in court, it will open up Roe v Wade to be redecided and overturned. That is the only reason for this lsw being passed. Because the Alabama legislators know it will be challenged and expect Roe v Wade to be overturned by it.

Anticipating this possibility, NY passed a law making abortion a legally protected right in the state. So, now I wonder if Roe v Wade is overturned, is it possible that SCOTUS could rule not only that abortion is not a constitutional right, but that it is illegal, and thus nullify state laws that allow it?

And, if Roe v Wade is overturned, how will we fight it?

[JohnnyRingo]

86. One good thing to consider...

Chief John Roberts said a few years ago that he didn't expect Roe/Wade to be reconsidered in his Supreme Court.

Like all his words, those were carefully chosen. It could well be that the SC will refuse to hear it as settled law and remand it back to the lower court.

[wnylib]

90. Who decides whether to accept a case? How is

that decision made?

If the Roberts court refuses to hear the case, then the anti choice people will still have achieved a win because states will be able to pass anti abortion laws with impunity if their district court is conservative enough to uphold anti abortion laws. The only choice women will have is to go to a state where abortion is legal. So we could have a blue state vs red state divide on abortion availability.

States are supposed to recognize each other others' laws, so that if a couple gets married at age 18 in one state and moves to a state where the marriage age is 21, they are still legally married. Or, a quickie Las Vegas divorce is still legal in other states. That should prevent anti abortion states from prosecuting women when they return home after an out of state abortion, but will anti abortion zealots try to prosecute her for intentionally leaving to do something that is illegal in her home state?

I ask because of something that used to happen in NY. NY used to have a tax on clothing, but PA doesn't. So people near the state border routinely shopped in PA for back to school clothes and Christmas clothing gifts. NY resented losing state taxes and local business, so cops stopped cars coming back to NY from PA and the shoppers were ordered to pay NY tax rates on out of state clothing purchases. That was challenged and became a moot point when clothing taxes were abolished in NY.

[JohnnyRingo]

94. I'm not sure how cases are decided to be heard....

...but I know the Chief has a lot of say in that. It's one of the perks of being the Chief Justice.

If the anti-abortion crowd loses in a state court, which is likely, they will appeal eventually to the Supreme. If our highest court refuses to hear the case, the ruling of the lower court stands with no further appeals. Hopefully that will be the process over and over until it fizzles out.

If a lower court lets the ban continue, I don't know what recourse there is to strike it down, especially if the SC refuses to consider it. The bottom line is I believe John Roberts is going to refuse to let his court become a three ring circus for religious activists. He may be a staunch conservative, but he's not a whack job.

[wnylib]

96. Sometime before Roberts retires or dies, maybe

it will be a good idea to expand the court, not only for abortion cases, but also for other issues (especially religious ones) that might come before the court. I have not favored that idea because where would it stop when a conservative is in the White House? But we can't let the zealots run the nation.

[marieo1]

75. Between a woman and her Doctor!!

I am a firm believer that this is between a woman and her doctor and NO ONE Else!! What gives anyone else the right to stick their noses in another persons health care. That's exactly the problem today, too many people want to run every one else's lives.

[CrispyQ]

79. I loathe these self-righteous a-holes.

[kag]

80. This is excellent.

I've never heard this point ("The unborn are a convenient group to advocate for" ) made so eloquently before. Thanks for putting here.

I have a very personal history with miscarriages, abortions, dangerous pregnancies, etc. because of a chromosomal abnormality. My daughter also has the abnormality, and I fear for her life now that she is a young adult.

However, we live in Colorado (so I also love the billboard). She should be okay at least until Amy Hypocrite Barrett gets her hands on the case.

Goddamn fucking Turtle McConnell is trying to kill my daughter.

[CrispyQ]

83. Hi neighbor! I live in CO, too!

IMO, this is THE best argument against forced pregnancy & I don't know why groups like NARAL don't add this to our arsenal of arguments for CHOICE.

Abortion and the 13th Amendment

2010
Forced Labor, Revisited: The Thirteenth Amendment and Abortion
Andrew Koppelman
Northwestern University School of Law, [e-mail]

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1031&context=facultyworkingpapers

snip...

I. The basic argument The Thirteenth Amendment reads as follows:

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

My claim is that the amendment is violated by laws that prohibit abortion. When women are compelled to carry and bear children, they are subjected to "involuntary servitude" in violation of the amendment. Abortion prohibitions violate the Amendment's guarantee of personal liberty, because forced pregnancy and childbirth, by compelling the woman to serve the fetus, creates "that control by which the personal service of one man [sic] is disposed of or coerced for another's benefit which is the essence of involuntary servitude."6

Such laws violate the amendment's guarantee of equality, because forcing women to be mothers makes them into a servant caste, a group which, by virtue of a status of birth, is held subject to a special duty to serve others and not themselves.

~more at link

Parents can't be compelled to donate their organs to their child, even to save the child's life. Why does a fetus have more claim on a woman's body than her living, breathing children?

[Duppers]

91. Saving this post along with the OP.

Thanks! Great addition to the thread.

[noneof_theabove]

81. Politicians failed Law 101

Party of the First Party. ONLY.
There is no Second Party of the First Party or First Party of the Second Party.

So who is the First Party.

The woman and her health care provider "the Doctor".

Now if known, and may cases the Father.

NO ONE ELSE has any standing including ideologist RW politicians.

Currently the Right is not about "save the baby" it is "save the fetus"
As the OP mentioned mother with 2 kids she can't support.

Just my long 46 of 66 years of belief.

Maybe this will help you know me.
The pessimist says the glass is 1/2 empty.
The optimist say the glass is 1/2 full.
I am scientist that says you got the wrong damn container.

[Blue Owl]

82. K&R

[Duppers]

88. Sena's post needs to be printed in papers across the country.

My story, from 37yrs ago...

After obvious problems appeared, multiple ultrasounds were done in my 2nd & 3rd trimester. The last set were done by specialists at the hospital. It was a horrible experience to have a group of technicians pointing and whispering around the monitor and have them to refuse to tell you WTF was going on. But I knew enough, enough to know that my baby had tremendous problem(s). I knew my belly was half the size it should have been, but I did not know WHAT exactly the problem was.

Sadly, I was quite passed the point in my pregnancy where I could have gotten a legal abortion...or one w/o a broad of review making a protracted decision about it. (This was 1983.) During my office appointments, my OB hemmed, hawed, and would not address the problem. With his silence, he did indeed lie to me.

I learned, some time after Amy died, that he had almost lost his license to practice at a local Catholic hospital after he discreetly "terminated" a late-term pregnancy because the baby had some terminal problem.

In my case, he chose to protect himself rather than to deal with another difficult pregnancy ---rather than give the mother the facts and a choice. I should have changed docs and learned the facts. I would have petitioned for an abortion rather than let my baby painfully fight for hours trying to live. (Amy died from lack of oxygen because her lungs could not function properly due to the diaphragmatic hernia. She did not survive the attempt to correct the all too extensive hernia, which had allowed to her intestines to grow into her lung cavity. The extent of her hernia had been detected on those many ultrasounds!! She was almost found to have polycystic kidneys.)

As dastardly as it might sound to some, late term abortion would have been the most humane thing to do. But I was so traumatized and so unsure of how to proceed. For weeks --for the remaining time of that third trimester I cried myself to sleep because I knew enough to know how bad it was going to be. Sadly my husband was not supportive because he escaped into denial.

The only person who would truthfully address the problem (& the only person who would comfort me) was the pediatrician I went to see 6 weeks before delivery. She had a copy of my OB’s chart. She held my hand and confirmed that my baby had major problems. She then told me that she’d be there for me and do every thing that she could for my baby – for Amy and that we, together, would get through what was coming. I loved her for confirming the truth of what I knew. The only person in my world to have done so.

Many yrs later I found that same OB doc w/a group of nurse groupies having dinner at the same restaurant we were at. (My son, who was delivered yrs later by another OB, was with me at the time.) I did not want to create a scene, but I wanted this asshole doc to know what a horrible person I considered him to be. So, I wrote a note on a napkin, "DO NOT EVER again NOT tell a woman that her baby has major problems." I stood there while he read it. I said "I'll never forget what you did to me." His face turned white and he got up & left. True story.

This was such an emotionally painful part of my past but I had to add my story.

[Bayard]

92. My dear Duppers

I'm so sorry this happened to you. I think doctors today are vastly different than the old ones with questionable ethics making decisions, "for your own good", and you didn't get an opinion.

[Duppers]

93. Thank you so much.

My heartfelt thanks!

[kag]

95. That's horrible!

I, too, have had painful experiences with doctors, but I was fortunate to have an excellent OB when my first pregnancy developed into a "missed abortion" at the very end of the first trimester.

I was already in tears because I could tell by the way he was speaking to the ultrasound tech that something was wrong. Once I got dressed, he brought me into his office, gave me a big hug, and told me how we were going to manage this. He let me leave through the back entrance from his office, rather than walk through the waiting room where all of the happy pregnant mothers were sitting.

I had to have a D&C so that the dead fetus wouldn't develop into an infection and kill me. Had this Alabama law been the law of the land, I could be dead right now, or could at least have needed a hysterectomy, and my two beautiful kids would never have been born.

"Pro-life" is such a LIE!

I'm so sorry your first doc was such an asshole. I can't even imagine having to deal with both such a tragic pregnancy AND an idiot doctor who couldn't just tell you.