In 7 to 10 days, when the cases and deaths spike from Thanksgiving

[edhopper]

and the medical experts plead for people to not to repeat these deadly gatherings at Christmas.

All the people who didn't lose someone to this idiocy, will willfully ignore the warnings and blissfully put their family at risk again.

Because people who are saying we need to stay safe are mean and don't love Grandma and Grandpa.

They are just that stupid.

[MFM008]

1. It is hopeless

They just wont do it.
I cant believe that they wont do it.
They refuse to act safely, its like watching a mass suicide.

[LymphocyteLover]

7. certainly seems that way-- some people incredibly resistant to this sort of basic info

and to taking it seriously

[Blue_true]

16. A large segment of America has become whiny, thoughtless babies, no wonder why Trump

appeals to a majority of that set.

[Timewas]

30. Well

There will be a lot less of them soon

[Blue_true]

40. Yes, as harsh as that sounds.

In a functioning society, all of us are asked to do things that we would rather not do and if we could live totally outside of a society, wouldn’t do.

The majority of people realize that tradeoffs and accept them as part of gaining the benefits that come with being part of a working society. But there always is a group of people that insist on gaining the things from an organized society that they want, while resisting doing the tradeoffs that society asks of them, but which they would rather not do. So, if those people suffer until they change their thinking, or simply die off, in the long run both of those outcomes are beneficial to the whole of society.

[Timewas]

45. I guess

We can call it the "culling"

[MFM008]

48. yeah

that was my thoughts.

[ssgbryan]

46. One couple was bitching about wearing masks in front of me at Sav-a-lot.

I just pointed out that every selfish son of a bitch that wouldn't wear a mask was putting her 2 preschool children at risk.


Kept repeating the selfish part of it. "ME, ME, ME, MY RIGHTS, MY FREEDOMS," no thought of anyone else.

Because wearing a mask is a test - Are you a person that only thinks of themselves? Or are you a team player that thinks about others?


Light bulb went off at that point.

[liberal N proud]

2. Many will not listen even if they lose someone close

Their minds are poisoned

[2naSalit]

3. I'm beginning to think of it as...

A self culling event. Not only will they do it again at xmas, they'll do it again a week later for New Years. If anybody's left by Valentine's Day, well, I have no doubt what they would do.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

25. Unfortunately, as terrible as this disease is,

the actual death rate is quite low, and no where near a culling number.

It's instructive to look at population graphs over time. Even the 1918 flu pandemic, and WWII have almost no effect. It's scary.

More than twice as many babies are born each day, each year, as people who die. Think about it.

[2naSalit]

33. Well, if you want to talk FACTS...

That's another thing!

Actually, I agree with your points. I was being snarky and based my premise on a much smaller population set where the magats were killing themselves off. But you are correct, the death rate is low comparatively. I wonder how many will have serious lasting health problems afterward... it seems to be a thing. There could be an increase in latent death rate in the next few years I would imagine.

[Buckeyeblue]

34. That's exactly right. The real damage will be the lasting effects.

We don't know the true long term effects. What happens after year 1, year 3, year 5. By the end of Biden's first term we could have a massive population of people who can't work because of heart/lung disease caused by covid.

They'll be called the Covid Crawlers because they'll be young and tethered to walkers as they slow-walk their way everywhere, huffing and puffing for that perfect breath that is always out of reach.

[Windy City Charlie]

36. That's what I've been wondering

How many of these deniers who refused to wear masks, but contracted the virus, and in coming years will be turning around and collecting disability benefits from Social Security due to heart and lung disease.

[Buckeyeblue]

41. Yes. It could be as big a crisis as the pandemic.

[MustLoveBeagles]

4. I'm sure the Covidiots will carry on

They will gather for Christmas and New Years. They don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. We're a country of sociopaths and tantrum throwing spoiled children. It's such a shame that scientists,doctors and other healthcare workers have to beg and plead for the public to follow simple precautions and guidelines knowing the masses with ignore them. Many Americans have simply given up.

[Windy City Charlie]

5. What's crazy

I've heard stories where some of the deniers have been told by their doctors that they've contracted the virus and they still refuse to believe it exists. That they've gotten into heated arguments with their doctors about it.

[MustLoveBeagles]

15. I have too

I've always thought of myself as a compassionate person but I'm finding that my empathy has been stretched almost to the breaking point. When I hear those stories I'm starting to think its a shame time and resources are being wasted on these dead enders when there are people that caught this through no fault of their own but won't get that level of care. Someone on this site suggested when they start that shit with the doctors they should stop all care and dump them in the parking lot. I'm not quite there yet but I'm getting close. I've put my life on hold as many of us have. This has ended any chance I had of becoming a mother. I can only do it through IVF treatments but I refuse to bring a baby into this nightmare. I'm in my late forties so time isn't on my side. By the time the dust settles from this it will likely be too late for me. That makes me very angry.

I just found out Wednesday that a group of several friends we used to meet with once a month for lunch contracted Covid. They'd starting meeting again but hubby and I and another close friend felt it was too dangerous. Two had to be hospitalized and ironically enough it wasn't the elderly friends with numerous comorbidities. It was two middle aged people in relatively good health. Fortunately no one died, but the two are still are still dealing with the aftermath since they were sent home. The women (the source of the superspreader event who'd contracted it from her 20 something daughter) still has difficulty breathing and her boyfriend has lost much of the muscle mass in his thighs. She's kicking herself now for not being more careful.

[Ms. Toad]

6. Symptoms will start for a lot tomorrow - but since tests are hard to come by

they won't really start showing up in the stats for a few days after that.

The timing of the start of a lot of symptoms is 2-3 days after exposure.

As for dodging a bullet - I'm having that conversation with my daughter. She was exposed 2 weeks ago - and I believe she now thinks she's invincible. She's headed to friends of the person who exposed her for a gathering that includes food. I begged her to wear a mask and socially distance. When I commented to her about dodging a bullet this time, and that she might not be so lucky next time, she started ranting about it making no sense if it is so contagious how she didn't get it this time.

So I dragged out some of the studies with diagrams to show her how ventilation might have made a difference (as one example of variation) - one asymptomatic person infected more than half of the people at tables in the direct line of the air conditioning flow - but none of the tables out of the direct line of flow. Then I dragged out the mutations that make COVID 19 more contagious and pointed out that the person she was exposed to might have had a less contagious version, and that she might not be so lucky next time.

She seemed convinced - but then, again, I wasn't aware of how much risk she was taking until 17 days ago (3 days before she was exposed). I'll just stick with my 24/7 masking until this thing is over.

[Windy City Charlie]

8. That's the problem

Many people may start getting the symptoms, but will they continue to refuse to wear a mask, and furthermore, will get they tested? If not, obviously they'll be doing nothing but spreading it further.

[Ms. Toad]

10. My mantra is that I have to treat everyone as having COVID -

Unfortunately, including both other members of my household. If I don't treat them as having COVID, I will contract it.

[Windy City Charlie]

12. Exactly

Unfortunately, there's some don't grasp that way of thinking.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

13. Ugh, I'm sorry to read that!

My sister-in-law got infected a few days before you reported your daughter's behavior over two weeks ago, and she passed away last night.

Please keep trying to persuade her to be more careful, especially with her risk factors. Vaccines should be available soon!

[Ms. Toad]

20. I was sorry to read about your sister.

I know I started to add a comment in that thread, but I likely got distracted.

Her great uncle (my mother's brother) was diagnosed roughly the same time and was near death two days ago. He improved yesterday enough to be moved to a nursing care facility - I think mainly because there are no more beds for COVID patients in Wisconsin. No word yet today. (He is in his early 90s.)

In one of these threads the comment of a medical person was reported - this is the week that nearly every American will finally know somoene with COVID. That appears to be true.

Although I've known dozens, including those who have died or had long term complications, it is partly becuase I know people all over the country - and teach in a University where there is at least some emphasis on disclosure. This week has been the first really close exposure (immediate family and aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.)

I didn't want to push her right after her exposure, since it was clear she was feeling defensive about having potentially exposed me - and about the struggles she is having with masking in small (non-exclusive) social circles. So - today was the first longer conversation I've had with her. There will be more - and more with my spouse who has similar issues.

I am so glad my shadow quarantine (imposed by the University) is over tomorrow and I can go back to my office where I can at least get a few unmasked hours a day.

[Oneironaut]

9. I get frustrated and sometimes angrily say that we should just open everything up, no restrictions.

Let's pack into bars again, and have concerts and sporting events. Let's all mingle together and pretend nothing is wrong. Let's have 3 million people die, because a sizable number of Americans (mostly Republicans) don't believe that the virus is even real, it's a conspiracy to take away their rights, or that it's no worse than the flu. Have the hospitals fill up to the point where people are dying in hallways, denying that COVID-19 exists with their last breaths.

I don't mean it, but the idiocy Americans are showing with this virus is frustrating.

[Windy City Charlie]

11. Therein lies the problem

The deniers refuse to wear a mask and refuse to get tested. So, how many of them have contracted the virus due to not wearing a mask? And if they refuse to get tested, many may not even realize they have it, and in turn, they become super-spreaders of the virus.

[Heartstrings]

14. My daughter firmly believes if we go the herd immunity route,

it’ll be like the bubonic plague with X’s on the doors denoting death and trucks driving by to pick up the bodies to burn in mass graves.

I hope she’s wrong, but nothing is inconceivable at this time.

[Blue_true]

18. Hospital capacity can't withstand that level of illness.

People will be dying due to lack of treatment or inadequate treatment by over-stretched Doctors and Nurses.

I read that Sweden isn’t seeing any positive impact of having a good percentage of it’s population having anti-bodies. The PM there imposed some restrictions to combat the virus spread last week. We are a much larger, far less healthy population and our profit centered medical infrastructure seems fragile when it gets overrun - so we shouldn’t expect to remotely match Sweden’s trajectory through the pandemic.

[Ms. Toad]

21. I have family in Sweden -

My uncle (in Wisconsin) was diagnosed last week. He was near death the day before yesterday - my mother (his sister) expected to wake up learning she was the only one left of the immediate family in which she grew up. Fortunately, he was enough better that rationing of hospital rooms + his improvement allowed them to move to a short term care facility.

But in the process of finding out how he's doing, I've had conversations with one of his daughters.

She reported that much of her sister's family (who live in Sweden) have had the disease - niece, nephew, nephew's wife, nephew's mother-in-law, etc.

Only two of the (larger) US branch of the family - many of whom live in Wisconsin, have had it.

[Blue_true]

22. I am doing everything that I can to avoid that virus.

I am claustrophobic and being put on a Vent would likely finish me even if I am sedated and on pain meds. I am healthy and plan on working to stay that way. Wearing a mask properly and using good commonsense seems to be the best path to me. I am really disappointed to see prominent people, including President-Elect Biden and Dr. Fauci at times, either not covering their nose at all, or covering their nose just above the nostrils (President-elect Biden and Dr. Fauci). I cover my nose to the nose bones, then I contour the nose wire to my upper-cheeks.

[Ms. Toad]

23. My practice, as well.

If being on a vent was survivable, claustrophobia wouldn't kill me. But I don't want to temp fate - or overtax our health care system taking care of me.

I've only had two scenarios when wearing a mask was challenging - both times when I shouldn't have had to wear one. Making Thanksgiving dinner in my own home. Not only did I keep jamming food into my mask when I tried to taste test it (and forgot I was wearing a maks), I was moving around enough that it was hot and uncomfortable. (Since everyone else was in bed, I did take it off after running the air purifier in the kitchen for more than an hour after anyone other than mee had been in the kitchen). The other is that when my nose is stuffy it is occasionally hard for me to get a good deep breath when I'm sleeping in a double mask (since my spouse can't seem to keep even a single mask on when out with family and a couple of friends).

I really see very little reason the vast majority of people can't wear a mask - and can't wear it properly.

[Hugin]

37. That doesn't bode well for a vaccine...

"Sweden isn’t seeing any positive impact of having a good percentage of it’s population having anti-bodies."

I've been troubled by the amount of play the vaccines are getting with claims of 90 - 95% effective. What they are talking about is antibody production. I've also read several case studies of patients dying after receiving convalescent plasma or manufactured antibodies. Granted they may have been given them too late in the disease process to make any difference.

I don't want to seem like a sea-lion, but, where did you see this discussion of the impact in Sweden, Blue_tire?

[Blue_true]

39. The Swedish National Epidemiologist made the statement about antibodies.

The Prime Minister implemented restrictions like occupancy limits, closing bars early, ect. I didn’t read that he asked people to mask up, but, IMO, Swedes would be smart to start using masks more broadly.

I don’t know what relationship Sweden’s finding will have to whether vaccines work. From what I understand, the three vaccines that have been announced prevented people that got the vaccine from getting COVID19, which is the whole point of a vaccine. The question of how long a person that get the two shot regimen is protected is still an open question, from what I understand about what I read. The effectiveness number was derived from testing of people 14 days after the second shot, so, if those people don’t get more shots, how long are they protected? The fact that a large number of people are saying that they won’t get the shots is another issue, there will be a large reservoir around to infect people that got the shots but maybe had the effectiveness of the shots dissipate over a certain amount of time.

[Hugin]

43. Can not get a more primary source than that, BT.

My only other lingering question is if the trail subjects are continuing the other preventative measures; masks, distancing, isolation, etc. after receiving the inoculations.

[Blue_true]

44. I don't know the protocol that trial subjects are expected to follow.

The article that I read on vaccines didn’t say whether the trial subjects were purposely exposed to a small dose of the virus (challenge trial).

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

28. Herd immunity doesn't work that way.

If it did, things like measles, mumps, and chicken pox would have died out hundreds of years ago. Instead, every single year millions of kids got those diseases. And the next year, millions more.

We can name any disease we like and herd immunity doesn't really exist.

Or not with vaccinations. The reason smallpox no longer exists is NOT because of herd immunity. It's because it was vaccinated into extinction.

This disease will NOT go away once 70 percent of people have gotten it. Because the remaining 30 percent will be more than enough to keep it circulating. But a safe and effective vaccine, once given to 90 percent of the population, will do the trick.

Although, it will be helpful to understand that the anti-vaxxers in a way won't matter. They'll choose not to get the vaccine, and they'll continue to get it. Those of us who do get it, will be immune.

I will ask this question: Will those who have already had Covid-19 still be encouraged to get it? Why?

[Hugin]

38. Yeah, herd immunity would only exist in a closed system where...

No other factors or diseases were present.

It also requires all of the potential targets of infection to be nearly genetically identical.

I keep thinking about the wave of death in the new world subsequent to Columbian contact. Within 40 years over 90% of the indigenous Americans were dead and it was actually three different diseases. The first and second were introduced at contact and the third may have originated in the Americas. The first weakened the population and the next two killed them ALL.

[Arthur_Frain]

17. When the vaccine comes out do you think they'll change?

We will all go pretty much right back to packing into bars and pretending this never happened. We’re great at denial. But from the sound of things when we start doing that again about half of us will be vaccinated and half of us will not be.

It’s going to continue to be ugly for quite some time. Local city council has had to defer for two meetings now any action on a mask statement. Due to rabid turnout, demands to be heard, etc. Even now, after all of this, science is a liberal scheme to them.

[Blue_true]

19. Many are saying that they are not going to take the vaccine. nt

[mr_lebowski]

24. Can't blame em cuz Bill Gates' Deep State Nanobots altering our DNA to make us Gay Socialists

would mean the end of Murika!!!!

[Ellen Forradalom]

27. Gay Socialist??

Sign me up!

[Heartstrings]

31. Or Bill Gates will implant a tracking device in the vaccine....

Like any one of us is so significant to Bill Gates that he would want to track us. Or better yet, what’s that in your hand? A cell phone? OMG!

[mr_lebowski]

32. I know ... they're such fucking morons ...

You willingly carry around a device that literally communicates to a giant, corporate-owned computer system telling it exactly where that device is ... all the damn time ... and not only that ... it knows a shitload about what you do, who you know, what your conversations are, what websites you go to ... NONE of which some bot in your bloodstream could possibly do (of course it couldn't be used to track you either). And that's all just fine.

[Blue_true]

42. Magats aren't known for wasting brain cells on thinking. nt

[ssgbryan]

47. Not this guy.

I'll be 1st in line.

I am not old enough to remember polio, but my mother is.

[SlogginThroughIt]

26. So damned true!

[Warpy]

29. Quite a few couldn't stand up to Grandma's bullying, admit it.

Family dynamics are very strange during winter holidays.

We'll start seeing a spike in cases Tues-Thurs. Deaths will lag a week or two behind it.

Perhaps it will reduce the pressure to travel to big family dos on Xmas. I sincerely hope so.

[edhopper]

35. True

seen this in my own family. Some who are usually completely on board with COVID safety couldn't say no to going to Grandma's for TG.